Venezuela Opposition Slams 'Errors' in Vote Ruling

[windansea]

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Opponents of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez demanded on Friday that electoral officials correct what they called serious errors in a preliminary ruling blocking their effort to call a vote to remove the leftist leader.

Fighting to keep a campaign for a referendum on Chavez's rule alive, opposition leaders met with the National Electoral Council to contest last week's decision to ask people whose signatures were disputed to come forward to confirm them. Some one million people fall into this category.

They said technical data presented by the council to back its March 2 decision was flawed by "inconsistencies and subjectivity."

"We told them that before we could begin talking (about confirming signatures), they had to clear all this up," said Juan Fernandez of the opposition Democratic Coordinator coalition.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4558743

more details on the signatures:

Opposition challenges CNE database

The opposition met with the Consejo Nacional Electoral and asked for the electoral Board to clarify a number of inconsistencies in the data, before accepting whether to go or not to the process of having citizens confirm or not that they signed to request for the President’s recall. The following are some of the criticisms of the data. The opposition challenged the validity of the CNE database, including the following inconsistencies:

i) The regulations established a total of five (5) criteria for invalidating a signature; the CNE used thirty eight (38) different criteria.

ii) The CNE President said when announcing the results of the analysis of the data that they had accepted 3.086.013 signatures as being in the forms, the CNE database contains 3.475.200 signatures the opposition handed in.

iii) The CNE President said 1.832.493 signatures had been declared valid, the database says only 1.783.523 have been accepted.

iv) There are 224 thousand signatures that the CNE rejected due to errors in the cover sheets that the opposition has as accepted by the CNE and stamped by the CNE.

v) There are 28 thousand signatures rejected because they do not appear in the cover sheets, the opposition claims they are there.

vi) There are 23 thousand signatures “lost” by the CNE which now the CNE has “found” and is processing.

vii) There are 276 thousand signatures that have inconsistencies with the Electoral registry and most of them have no problem and are correct.

viii) Of the controversial forms with the same calligraphy, the opposition “discovered” that 54% of them do not have the same calligraphy. (and these are not similar handwrighting on the signatures which are accompanied by fingerprints and ID numbers, but on filling out name, address etc which some poll workers helped the voters fill out)

Now, what this implies is the following:

Carrasquero said 1.83 million had been accepted and 876 thousand were planas. The opposition claims 54% of the latter were not planas AT ALL. Add those 473 thousand and the opposition has 2.303 million and it needs 2.432 million, a difference of only 129 thousand signatures which could easily be obtained in the confirmation process. .

Additionally, if you add to that totals 1.83 million +473 thousand (viii) + 276 thousand (vii) + 23 thousand (vi) + 28 thousand (v) + 224 thousand (iv), you get 2.854 million signatures, more than 400 thousand than required.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

[TinaTyson]

1. Then why are the opposition opposed to the verification process?

Just curious.

[TinaTyson]

2. Well unfortunately I have to run but maybe you can answer some

personal questions for me as well.

Why is it that you seem support these groups who are obviously a front for the rich factory owners and former colonialist families. Support recalls like was done in Cali here in the states, which most Democrats (regardless of opinion of Davis) felt was actually an abuse or undermining of democracy, an unwillingness to accept the will of the people. Support groups like these in Venezuela who are against every principle most progressives hold. Right of labor, rights to better more equal society for all.

What first brought me to Democratic Udnerground was the situation in Haiti. I remember reading your backings of the opposition in Haiti as well. You must pretty feel foolish about that one now that the facts are all in.

How do you resolve these things with your progressive democratic tendencies that brought you to DU?

Seems very strange.

[Redleg]

5. A number of us want to know the answer to that one.

This person seems to only post anti-Chavez stuff.

[AP]

12. It used to be only anti-aristide stuff, I understand.

[windansea]

18. see posts 7 & 9 for starters

does it seem strange to you that staunch defenders of democracy and constitutional laws like Jimmy Carter, Barney Frank, Kofi Annan, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, International Society for Human Rights, the EU have similar concerns about Chavez and the rights of venezuelans??

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

56. Agreed

What's the deal?

[windansea]

61. here's the deal

say buh bye Hugo

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Monday ordered electoral authorities to lift their objections against more than 800,000 disputed opposition signatures seeking a referendum against President Hugo Chavez.

The ruling by the court's Electoral Chamber, which heralded a bitter legal battle over the referendum process, boosted opposition hopes to secure a recall vote this year on the rule of the leftist leader.

Electoral officials decided March 2 that the opposition had initially failed to secure enough valid signatures to trigger the referendum. Foes of Chavez, who need to reconfirm 600,000 signatures to meet the referendum target, had appealed to the Supreme Court against the National Electoral Council decision to order a recheck of the questioned signatures.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venez ...

[redqueen]

63. Posting an announcement that a fate worse than Arnold

is quite possibly about to befall the Venezuelan people does not explain why you initially supported the Haitian opposition forces.

You seem to agree with bush on matters of foreign policy. Is that an accurate statement?

[windansea]

70. no

I didn't vote for Bush...the fact that I don't like Aristide does not mean I support some of the thugs who oppose him, or mean that I support bush foreign policies even if his ouster coincides with them. The same goes for Chavez, but even more so.

Is that too nuanced for you?

[redqueen]

72. No

Mea culpa. I read that you supported the opposition, which is apparently not the case. I stand corrected.

[AP]

115. You and Bush share all the same enemies. What's your objection to Bush?

Isn't the enemy of your enemies your friend?

[windansea]

133. Do you support Kerry?

I seriously doubt he will pursue policies that promote quasi socialist dictators like Chavez, Castro, or Mugabe....he will promote democracy around the globe and raise funding for the NED.


This is fine with me.

[AP]

3. Hey, they're just dong what Uncle Sam tells them to do.

They're not being paid to be logical!

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

6. LOL!! ya can't be serious can you?

Go back to the think tank room.

[windansea]

7. first they want an honest accounting

of which signatures are legal...Chavez and the CNE are trying to invalidate a million signatures thru technicalities

the Carter Center, which had reps onsite monitoring the gignature gathering process, affirms their validity and is calling on Chavez to let the recall vote take place, as is the UN, the EU, and many others.

here is a portion of the Carter Center report:

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

We have had some discrepancies with the CNE over the verification criteria. In the case of the petition forms in which the basic data of several signers, but not the signatures themselves, appear to have been filled in by one person, we do not share the criterion of the CNE to separate these signatures, sending them to the appeals process in order to be rectified by the citizens. These occur in such large numbers that they could have an impact on the outcome of the process.

http://www.jimmycarter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

statment by Congressman Frank

US congressman Barney Frank (D-Ma) writes that "I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

"I call on President Chavez to urge his supporters on the CNE to continue talks facilitated by the OAS and Carter Center to work out procedures to guarantee the rights of citizens who wish to confirm or refute their signatures."

Contacted in Washington this afternoon, Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."
US congressman
Barney Frank

"If it (my information) turns out wrong I will retract my statement, but I'm afraid that my impression was that pressure had been put on the CNE or the majority members and I could not have a lot of confidence in the validity of that process where people who had admittedly signed would have to come back and verify ... if they sign and put their thumb print there, what's the point in making them come back?"

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16242

[Capn Sunshine]

8. What exactly is your beef with Chavez?

Is it the part about returning land to landless serf like peasants (a threat to the international oil companies) or the part about builing up the poor by spending money intheir ghettoes ( a threat to the international oil companies), or is it the refusal to participate in the IMF fleecing of Latin America (a threat to the international oil comapnies) Maybe it's the temerity of Chavez to suggest that Venezuela's bountiful oil reserves be controlled not by Exxon-Mobil but by venzuela ( a threat to international oil companies...) Miguel Bustamante-Madriz, a member of Chávez's cabinet, paints a bigger conflict with the global corporate agenda: 'America can't let us stay in power. We are the exception to the new globalization order. If we succeed, we are an example to all the Americas.'
We all know---WE DO KNOW THIS, RIGHT? ---- that it is VENEZUELA that is the LARGEST SUPPLIER OF FOREIGN OIL TO THE US. Should we be surprised that oil company interests in the USA feel threatened by pretensions to independence? The oligarchy is miffed and after failing in a coup now attempts to portary the president as in need of a recall vote.

?o tal vez es el color de su pelo, no?

[windansea]

9. my beef?

His Excellency Hugo Chavez
President
Palacio De Miliflores
Caracas
Venezuela

Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS

http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

PS See a lot of blond european types in these photos of the opposition??











the opposition includes venezuelans of all types including the poor, middle class, labor unions etc and many of these people were former Chavez supporters, but saw through his lies

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

17. we should be supporting democracy & democratic processes

This referendum is provided for in the constitution, so they should go ahead with it. This is the democratic thing to do.

This attempt to invalidate the referendum drive on technicalitys, well, what can I say? We werent to happy with how democracy was subverted in Florida in 2000, so its not too comforting to see this happening in Venezuela (even if it is a lefty doing it).

I don't have too much confidence in Chavez as a democrat. He did, after all, try to take power as part of a coup attempt, prior to running (& winning) the presidency.

It seems Chavez is part of that South American tradition of the caudillo, or military strongman. He may be coming at it from a left/"peronista" direction, but that does not make him committed to democracy.

[windansea]

19. exactly

Chavez pretends to be a populist but his support has dwindled...even the poor are seeing through his lies

much of the opposition is composed of former Chavez supporters including many of my friends in Venezuela

[plurality]

23. oh please, this shit again

Chavez attempted a coup against a president that was killing thousands of his own people. What would you suggest? Sitting idly by while a 'president' murders everybody?

[AP]

33. I guarantee you they have laws against foreign gov'ts funding political...

...parties too.

Which principle would trump the other?

And even if you agree with me about which one trumps the other, Chavez doesn't. He's letting the process go forward despite the fact that the US is pumping millions into subverting him.

[windansea]

39. Chavez is doing everything possible to stall and thwart

the process, why do you think Carter, Frank, UN, EU et all are calling him on it?

[AP]

43. Battle of Algiers: UN turned it's back on Algerians, supported fascist

French.

[AP]

44. Chavez knows his history. Remembers Allende.

[dpibel]

42. Vide, This Article

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0313-01.htm

From the Guardian UK

Washington has been channeling hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the political opponents of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez - including those who briefly overthrew the democratically elected leader in a coup two years ago.

Documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act reveal that, in 2002, America paid more than a million dollars to those political groups in what it claims is an ongoing effort to build democracy and "strengthen political parties". Mr Chavez has seized on the information, telling Washington to "get its hands off Venezuela".

-----------

But of course, when the USofA, champion of democracy everywhere, funds political movements in other countries, well, that's OK. We're only trying to help, doncha know.

I trust no one will have a problem if the Chinese decide it would be a good idea for their trade position to pump the odd few million into the Republican party coffers.

[dpibel]

46. Sorry -- Dupes #26 n/t

[9215]

49. Time to reinvent the wheel for Waverly

:eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

10. Good question, and appropriate.

This article came to mind in reading your excellent post:


David Rochkind/Polaris, for The New York Times
Siadys Bayuelo will soon have water in her home because of efforts by Venezuela's state-run oil company.

The Oil Company as Social Worker
By BRIAN ELLSWORTH

Published: March 11, 2004


CRUCERO DEL CARO, Venezuela - Siadys Bayuelo, 33, has spent four years urging local authorities to pipe potable water into her home in this dusty town in eastern Venezuela, sparing her the trouble of walking a mile every day to the nearest well.

Now, contractors are drilling wells around the region as part of a $140,000 project that will eventually pipe water into her three-room cinderblock house and hundreds of others nearby, easing a hardscrabble life. But rather than thanking the local government, Ms. Bayuelo says she is grateful to the state-run oil company, which has extensive but faceless operations in this gas-rich region.
(snip)

All across this oil-rich and poverty-riddled country, the state oil giant, Petróleos de Venezuela, the country's economic engine, is embarking on a radical and wide-ranging social spending program that includes building homes, running literacy programs and developing agriculture. In all, the company, known worldwide as Pdvsa (pronounced peh-deh-VEH-sah), is increasing its social spending from less than $40 million in previous years to $1.7 billion this year, according to the company's 2004 budget: $616 million on various programs, $600 million on agricultural development and $500 million on low-income housing.
(snip)

"Pdvsa used to function as a transnational company only interested in maximizing oil sales," said Pdvsa's president, Alí Rodríguez. "Now, Pdvsa is working with other state institutions to reduce Venezuela's exceedingly high rate of poverty." According to Venezuelan research groups, more than 70 percent of the population lives below the poverty line. Social spending initiatives are crucial for the embattled President Chávez, who has recently faced violent opposition protests as electoral authorities announced setbacks in a recall referendum.
(snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

More power to the good hearted Chavez. He's the best.

[windansea]

13. LOL...

The thirteenth victim of the repression of the Government was named Juan Carlos Zambrano who died on Wednesday as a result of the injuries the military inflicted on him by members of the Army camp in La Turiaca, in the Lagunillas municipality in Zulia State.

His concubine Yeicy Vasquez was raped and abused by the soldiers and was threatened with death if she denounced what had happened to her.

Zambrano’s mother said her son worked picking up aluminum cans from the streets to sell them, not exactly what Chávez would call an oligarch. She said she was at the army camp while her son was being tortured. They would hit him and throw him on the floor, while they all stepped on him. They would give him water and then hit him with a bat on the stomach. They tied his hands and dragged him on the asphalt. She said she asked them to stop and they laughed at her. The military claims they detained him because he stole a motor from an oil well.

He was freed and died later in the Hospital. General Carlos Briceno of the 11t Brigade has confirmed that Zambrano was a prisoner, but the information he had was that Zambrano had signed a document in which he said that he was treated well while in captivity.

Zambrano’s mother said that her other son Michel was also detained that day and is missing. Michel went out that day looking for his brother.

Besides Michel Zambrano, there are still seven people desaparecidos from the protests whose names are: Omar Arturo Morales (28); Juan José Pérez (27); Juan Ernesto Sánchez (37); Andrés Bastidas Guedes (32) ; José Luis Rodríguez (33); Eduardo José Miranda (30) y Julio César Gómez (34). They are believed to be dead since they were detained simultaneusly. The Investigative police has begun looking into the case and is the only Government body that has said anything about them according to page B-23 of today’s El Nacional (by subscription).

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/03/12.html#a1390

[pescao]

123. how come u never quote this bit from carter:

"The appeals and correction period was included in the process to provide, in cases of doubt, an opportunity for citizens to reaffirm their signatures, or to disavow their signatures in cases where their data has been used against their will. The CNE has accepted some of our recommendations in designing this appeals process. We support the efforts of the CNE and of the promoters to work together to establish the guarantees necessary to ensure that all of the citizens who wish to take advantage of this resource may do so. We urge them to continue in this direction."

sounds like he likes the 'repair period'; wonder why the opposition don't, tho?

[Judi Lynn]

11. I'm throwing in, at no expense to you, an open letter to George Bush

Hon. George W. Bush
President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC, 20500

Dear President George W. Bush,

Given the high level of political tension in Venezuela, and recognizing that part of the leadership of the opposition is determined to depose President Hugo Chávez by any means, we, the undersigned organizations and persons, urge you to declare unequivocally that the government of the United States is opposed to any unconstitutional or coup attempt against the democratically elected government of Venezuela. Also, the White House should affirm that the United States will not recognize diplomatic relations with a government installed by means of a coup.

We believe that the silence of the White House after the April 11th coup d’etat, which the Administration appeared to congratulate, is generally seen as a support for a coup. We are concerned by the fact that this perception diminishes the incentives for the opposition and the Chávez government to seek dialogue or a peaceful solution to the current crisis.

We are also concerned that, while the top officials of the White House have remained silent, Otto Reich, the Special Envoy for the Western Hemisphere of the State Department, recently denounced the Venezuelan government, saying that, “the existence of elections is not enough to say that a country is democratic.” This is a strange departure from diplomatic protocol, and in the light of what happened during the April coup, it has risen the level of suspicion that Venezuelan officials have about Washington’s motives.

The role of the United States government in the April 11th coup is not clear. We know that some United States officials met with the coup leaders in the months before the coup. Groups involved with the coup also received financing from the United States government. At the same time, the Bush Administration openly expressed its hostility toward the government of President Chávez. According to the office of the Inspector General of the State Department, one of the reasons for this friction was “the participation (of President Chávez) in the affairs of the Venezuelan oil company and the impact this could have on the price of oil.”

Also, the Office of the Inspector General of the State Department, after investigating the role of U.S. officials before and after the April coup, concluded that U.S. warnings against the coup “were perhaps not critical enough. Among these warnings, few went beyond the formulation of common and ritualistic opposition to ‘anti-democratic or unconstitutional change.’ Any warning of non-recognition of a coup installed government, economic sanctions or other punitive and corrective actions were few and far between. Retrospectively, this has also been recognized and lamented by some high United States officials.”

The Inspector General’s report also noted that “the fact of having met frequently with those interested in toppling the Chávez government could have been seen as United States backing for their efforts, notwithstanding our ritualistic denunciation of anti-democratic and unconstitutional measures.”

Given those circumstances, the current silence by the White House about its opposition to a coup d’etat or other unconstitutional defeat of a democratically elected government in Venezuela is seen throughout Venezuela and elsewhere as support for those illegal actions. The opposition leaders, determined to defeat a government, have few incentives to seek a peaceful solution via dialogue if they believe that the United States government would support whatever happens. The government of the United States must demonstrate its current and active support for democratically elected governments. Only a strong statement of condemnation by the White House explaining that the U.S. is opposed to violent or unconstitutional actions, that it will not tolerate a coup government and that it will impose sanctions on any government installed by coup measures, would send the correct and democratic message to the Venezuelan political actors and the other Latin American governments.

Therefore, we urge the White House to clarify its position, before Venezuela goes to Civil War.

Sincerely,

U.S. Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich, Ohio

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, Jr., Michigan

U.S. Rep. José E. Serrano, New York

U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, Massachusetts

U.S. Rep. Major R. Owens, New York

Al Giordano, journalist, América
(snip/)

http://www.narconews.com/Issue26/article562.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I have to leave for a while, I'll leave this article here, rat now:

Mar. 14, 2004. 01:00 AM


Is Chavez in America's crosshairs?


LINDA MCQUAIG

The president of Venezuela was addressing an International Women's Day gathering in Caracas last week, when he broke into song. The overflow crowd, familiar with their exuberant president's penchant for singing popular songs when the spirit moves him, went wild, chanting for more. He obliged.

Sitting in the audience, I was struck by the emotional connection between the crowd and Hugo Chavez — democratically elected president, revolutionary style leader, champion of Venezuela's poor, scourge of Venezuela's rich, and, some say, next on Washington's hit list.

Last month, Haiti's democratically elected government was overthrown in a coup orchestrated by Haiti's wealthy elite, with apparent support from Washington. That has fueled speculation Washington will encourage a similar coup in Venezuela, where the well-to-do are itching for an opportunity to overthrow Chavez.

In fact, they've already overthrown him once. In April, 2002, an armed faction led by the head of the local chamber of commerce stormed the presidential palace and took Chavez prisoner.
(snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

I posted it prematurely, yet it's better than too late. I won't be here for a while to appreciate your pro-coup response.

[windansea]

15. your Frank letter is from 2002

the one I posted is from last week, things have changed and so has Franks opinion of Chavez

[AP]

25. One thing that might have changed: pressure on Frank from banks which

patronize members of the House banking committee on which he sits???

He's domestically liberal, and foreign policy NEOliberal.

[windansea]

27. and Barbara Lee and the others??

keep spinning...

[AP]

31. I'm reading the Roaring Nineties right now, and Stiglitz talks about how

DEMOCRATS were advocationg neoliberal policies abroad which they'd NEVER advocate at home.

Let me know what Maxine Waters things about Chavez, because she's seems to be one of the rare Democrats in office who have a clue about what they laws Congress passes and the policies we advocate do to people in places like Haiti and Venezuela.

On one level, I don't blame Frank, because he's not the congressman from Caracas.

On another, what Clinton and the rest of Congress did in the 90s is unconscionable.

[Judi Lynn]

14. What the heck, I'm literally GIVING THIS ONE AWAY!

This article is definitely well worth a moment to consider:

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - Page updated at 12:00 A.M.

Editorial
Stay clear of Venezuela



Hugo Chávez, president of Venezuela, demands that the Bush administration keep its hands out of Venezuelan affairs. It is a reasonable request, and our national interest is better served by granting it.

Let's not create another Salvador Allende, who became a martyr of the communists and socialists when he was deposed as president of Chile in 1973. Allende had been elected with 36 percent of the vote in a three-way race. On that thin mandate, South America's first elected Marxist proceeded to seize Chile's copper mines, proclaim his solidarity with Fidel Castro, and thoroughly scare the middle class. By his third year in office, inflation hit 500 percent and women were marching down the streets beating empty cooking pots, protesting the price of food.

On Sept. 11, 1973, Allende was deposed by the military and found dead. It soon came out that the U.S. government had tried to remove Allende by paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to opposition parties and the opposition press.

Allende had been deposed by Chileans. But ever since then, it has been maintained with ferocious belief that Allende was deposed by the United States — a contention that could never be disproved, because we had poked the American finger into Chilean affairs.
(snip/...)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2001878499_hugoed14.html

[windansea]

16. you seem to be missing this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1230947

[AP]

20. Kissinger & Nixon & CIA tried to beat Allende "democratically" first

This is an important point to repeat.

They tried to throw an election against him with money, propaganda, cheating, and arguments that barely hold water especially once you consider for what the other side was fighting (corportate hegemony, fascism).

After that failed, they tried to destroy the economy, which fascists always do.

When that didn't work, they supported a coup and murdered Allende to set a lesson for the rest of the world.

And today Chavez is trying to rewrite the rule book.

[windansea]

21. Chavez is using Castro's rule book

suppress democracy, intimidate, jail, torture and kill the opposition while pretending to be a defender of the poor

I don't think you can compare people like Carter, Frank, Barbara Lee etc to Nixon and Kissinger...we are just supporting the rights of venezuelans as any democrat would.

funny how none of the Chavez apologists are posting in the thread I linked above...

[AP]

24. Say that's true, I'd still take Castro over Kissinger, as would many...

...Vietnemese, Chileans, and others around the world (the poor ones that is).

[windansea]

30. Chavez buddies include

Castro, Mugabe, Khadafi, Khatami, Saddam....all stellar supporters of democracy and human rights....Yay for Chavez...hero of the little people...

[AP]

32. And Jeb Bush and W, and George are buddies of the opposition.

I'd take any anti-neoliberal over that crowd ANY DAY OF THE WEEEK.

(Psst, Khadafi is a friend of the west now.)

[windansea]

34. name a prominent Democrat

or human rights organization that is NOW praising Chavez, Castro, Saddam, Mugabe, or Khatami...

I can name many that support venezuelan opposition's democratic rights.

[AP]

36. South Africans who know a thing or two about apartheid support

Mobuto viz land reform and his confrontation with neoliberals.

In the commonwealth, they could only get 4 countries to agree to the sanction, UK, Can, Aus, and NZ -- ie, the white countries. Every other country (the former colonies with dark skinned people who rule the gov'ts) said shut the fuck up.

Anti-aprtheid south africans carry a lot of weight with me. I think there aren't many 'human rights activists' who have more clout in my book.

SA was also pissed about Haiti too. (Why isn't Aristide on your list anymore?)

[windansea]

37. yep.....didn't think you could

PS SA was so pissed they told Aristide to wait until after their election for an asylum condideration...but you have to read between the lines to reach that conclusion.

[AP]

45. Don't tell me Mrs Windansea was a Haitian three weeks ago!

[windansea]

55. ok I won't

:crazy:

[dpibel]

114. I don't suppose you'd be willing

What is your factual basis for the statement that all these monsters are good buds with Chavez. Castro, yes.

But you're telling me that Chavez has been palling around with Mugabe? With Saddam Hussein?

Please. Where did you find this out?

[windansea]

134. Chavez....Mugabe is a "freedom fighter"

February 28, 2004 - Arriving in Venezuela after a long plane trip from Harare, Zimbabwe's despot Robert Mugabe rapidly proceeded to fall asleep while Chávez was giving a speech and went on to drop the replica of Bolívar's sword presented to him by Chávez. Robert Mugabe, said the beaming Chávez, "is a true warrior of freedom."

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200402280436



Chavez hails visiting Mugabe



Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez receives his Zimbabwean counterpart Robert Mugabe at the presidential palace in Caracas.
(Egilda Gomez, Miraflores Press, AP)

Caracas, Venezuela - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez praised Zimbabwe's embattled President Robert Mugabe as a "freedom fighter," bestowing the visiting African leader with a replica of South American independence hero Simon Bolivar's sword.

"I give you a replica of liberator Simon Bolivar's sword," Chavez said Thursday after the two leaders signed an energy co-operation agreement.

"For you, who like Bolivar, took up arms to liberate your people. For you, who like Bolivar, are and will always be a true freedom fighter," Chavez said. "He continues, alongside his people, to confront the pretensions of new imperialists."

Mugabe, who was in Venezuela for the February 27-28 summit of the G-15 group of developing nations, grinned as he unsheathed the sword and swung it about. Mugabe came to power in 1980 after a seven-year bush war for black rule forced a peace conference and British-supervised elections in Zimbabwe, then known as Rhodesia.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-259_1490385,00.html

[pescao]

125. "buddies"?

Castro, Mugabe, Khadafi, Khatami, Saddam.

castro yes, he's a "buddy", they even play baseball together, on occasion. but politically, they are very different, anyone can see that.

mugabe, maybe a "buddy", i don't know. at the very least, chávez has stood up for him against the racist onslaught of the world's elite. it's worth remembering, as was pointed out before, that people and politicians have responed very differently across the globe to mugabe's reforms, depending on whether historically they've been holding the lash, or being whipped by it.

saying he's "buddies" with saddam and the other two is like saying he's "buddies" with Shell or BP. they sell oil together. and sometimes they shake hands, that's what they do, they make deals. just like every other government and president does. stop this hypocrisy and complain about somewhere with real human rights abuses, like colombia next door.

[windansea]

140. see post 134 n/t

[w4rma]

22. "... pressure from their employers to force them sign the petitions ..."

...
Since last Tuesday, numerous employees of private companies and of opposition-led local governments have been denouncing pressure from their employers to force them sign the petitions against President Chavez.



Card used by anti-Chavez employers to make sure their employees sign the petitions to request a recall referendum on the President. Fingerprints and ID numbers are requested.

Orlando Chirino, leader of the National Workers Union (Unión Nacional de Trabajadores - UNT), denounced that employees of the local Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola companies, as well as those of food processor Alfonso Rivas & Co. have been ordered to sign the petitions. According to Chirino and other independent claims, absentee ballots have been taken to workplaces to force employees to stamp their signatures. Chirino filed a formal complaint to the National Electoral Council (CNE).

Workers of the Sinclair Construction Company reported threats of layoffs if they did not provide proof of signing the anti-Chavez petition to the employer.

Telecom company CANTV in Caracas, held a meeting to inform workers of the places where they could sign the anti-Chavez petitions.

Workers at the SoyoMay Company in Maracay also reported that they were asked to provide proof of signature to their employer following the petition drive.

Albis Muñoz, president of the Federation of Chambers of Commerce - FEDECAMARAS, made a public call to all Venezuelans to sign against Chavez in order to save their jobs. Muñoz argues that Chavez’s bad policies cause unemployment. The two previous FEDECAMARAS presidents, which includes ex-dictator Pedro Carmona are current fugitives of justice.
...
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1115

[windansea]

28. and....

Today's El Nacional has a report (page A-14) on a meeting in Maracaibo of PDVSA fired workers. At it, reports CTV leader Froilan Barrios, active PDVSA workers reported that more than 1,000 PDVSA workres were fired for signing the petition to recall President Hugo Chavez.

http://el-nacional.com/

[9215]

26. NULL &VOID.

Fork the opposition they, their votes, and their whining, don't deserve consideration. They are nothing more than bought and paid for, when not coerced stooges of the US. Investigations into the payoffs should be conducted and the ones found culpable jailed.



US revealed to be secretly funding anti-Chavez voters!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=419033&mesg_id=419033&page=

People forced to sign petition by their employers:
or they would lose their jobs or were threatened with physical harm. The article <http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1115> outlines the extreme lengths that were taken to get people to sign.

[windansea]

29. yep..NED funding

of opposition democratic groups all over the world is common knowledge and has been going on for 30 years supported overwhelmingly by congress....President kerry will increase funding for the NED

PS...the NED is an NGO and is not controlled by the executive branch, it has a bipartisan board of Directors.

PPS...venezuelananalysis is completely pro Chavez BS

[MrPrax]

35. Well you tipped your hand here

"NED funding of opposition democratic groups all over the world is common knowledge and has been going on for 30 years supported overwhelmingly by congress"

This should give you pause to thought as to why the US insists on doing this--that is INTERFERE with the internal affairs of foreign nations?

But this is probably beyond you as you seem to think that Chavez is a 'dictator'?

If he is, he couldn't be a very good one--the opposition newspapers and TVs blare anti-chavez propaganda 7/24 and Hugo appears not yet to have massacred large groups of people like the IMF-friendly Carlos Perez?

So I am satisfied that poor folks are feeling empowered and getting something for a change...

But I applaude your tenaciousness as you 'fine comb' the Democracy Building and Human Rights Records of America's current enemies? Amazing you seem to hold folks like Chevaz and Aristide to much higher standards than anyone else

Dig up any dirt on Uribe by any chance

[windansea]

38. my hand is wide open

for all to see...and I am in very good company...I guess you won't be voting for Kerry as he supports raising NED funding and as President will continue support for democratic and human rights worldwide, just as Presidents Carter and Clinton did.

[MrPrax]

40. Nope...

for other reasons least of which is childish taunting...

One of the better things about the NED is that like USAID, it can be used as a conduit for illegal funding circumventing Congressional law

As was the case in El Salvador and Nicaragua...

But your right...the democrats are not innocents in their 'moral mission' to remake the world either

Progressive Internationalism is Imperialism by another name...

It would be nice though to be able to vote for someone like the Spanish socialists who will withdraw Spain's troops from Iraq...

Isn't a democracy with a clear choice a real democracy?

[windansea]

41. circumventing congressional law??

perhaps you should write your congress person and let them know they're being circumvented

NED's congressional support has grown steadily during its first twenty years. From the early days of close and frequent votes on its authorizing and appropriating legislation, it has moved beyond survival to widespread bipartisan endorsement on the Hill. In fact, identical Senate and House resolutions (S. Con Res 66; H. Con Res 274) commending the National Endowment for Democracy “for its major contributions to the strengthening of democracy around the world on the occasion of the 20th anniversary” of its establishment, and endeavoring “to continue to support vital work” were passed in October, 2003. The Senate resolution was passed by unanimous voice vote; the House resolution sailed through on a roll call vote of 391-1. Both resolutions had strong, bipartisan co-sponsorship.(10) These votes were a reflection of how far the Endowment had come over the years in establishing not only its legitimacy but also the widespread bipartisan approval of its work. But the road had not always been a smooth one.

http://www.ned.org/about/nedhistory.html

[9215]

48. You support the misuse of NED. You clamor for

the "dictator" Chavez to comply with the referendum when in fact the whole process has been grossly corrupted. What exactly do you stand for?

Please restate what your position is here.

[AP]

50. ... making the world safe for capitalism? Defense of wealth?

[windansea]

53. are you in the right forum?

you might be more comfortable here www.wsws.org

[9215]

62. Trilateralism

Holly Sklar's book "Trilateralism", she uses nearly that same phrase.

That is what this whole Venezuela thing is about. The rich fascists backed by an unelected pResident in Thief are literally steamrolling over a democratically elected leader of a smaller country.

If they win then every election anywhere in the world will be allowed to be turned upside down with the same process. Including in the US.

[windansea]

51. "the whole process has been grossly corrupted."

yes..Chavez is trying to corrupt it...thats what Carter Center and Barney Frank are saying to Chavez...of course you probably know more about it than the Carter Center who has been monitoring the whole process for some time and had reps watching the signature gathering process...please tell us how you know more about fair elections than the Carter Center

[9215]

58. Tell me where Carter and Frank say that!!

Frank and Co. is inquiring. Your wild accusations are pathetic windnnoise. You jump off topic here as well. I am specifically talking about foreign money corrupting this process of having a referndum and am backing it up with sources. You are selectively blind to this.

Chavez does not have to honor a referendum process when that process is being corrupted by foreign influence: the opposition is NULL and VOID. The opposition and its puppetmasters could probably be tried under the Alien and Sedition acts if they are present in the Venezuelan Constitution.

[windansea]

73. okey doke

news release
from
BARNEY FRANK

Dear President Chavez,

We are disturbed by recent punitive actions taken by your government against the leaders of the opposition to you, and we are particularly concerned by the recent murders of people who were identified with that opposition.

In recent comments, particularly in response to OAS President Cesar Gavaria, you said that you were unimpressed by criticism of some of your government’s actions from people who had nothing to say when coups were being plotted. We are not in that category. Indeed, we have all spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government, and we signed a letter to President Bush, which was widely publicized in the United States making that point. But our objection to any American action that would ignore the results of the last Venezuelan election should not be construed in any way as indifference to the importance in a democracy of respect for the untrammeled rights of a vigorous opposition and we must tell you that we are concerned that recent events in Venezuela call into question that respect.

We urge you to do everything possible to apprehend the murderers of those opposition figures to which we referred, to do everything possible to prevent any further violence against those who have been in the political opposition, and to refrain from prosecution of individuals based on the vigor of their opposition to you. We hope that all parties in Venezuela will engage energetically in political debate, leading up to electoral processes sanctioned by the Venezuelan Constitution, which all parties will agree to respect.


REP. BARNEY FRANK
REP. JANICE D. SCHAKOWSKY
REP. LYNN C. WOOLSEY
REP. MAURICE D. HINCHEY
REP. JOHN LEWIS
REP. BARBARA LEE
REP. DANNY K. DAVIS

http://www.house.gov/frank/venuzulea2003.html

US Congressman Barney Frank has "no confidence" in the constitutional autonomy of Venezuela's National Elections Council (CNE)
US congressman Barney Frank

In a press release issued from Washington D.C. today, US congressman Barney Frank (D-Ma) writes that "I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Elections Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez."

"I call on President Chavez to urge his supporters on the CNE to continue talks facilitated by the OAS and Carter Center to work out procedures to guarantee the rights of citizens who wish to confirm or refute their signatures."

Contacted in Washington this afternoon, Frank told VHeadline.com that he sees President Chavez Frias as pressuring the CNE to declare the referendum petition invalid ... "I've spoken with the Carter Center and I believe that the signatures that were gathered without them filling out the forms, that there was a miscommunication, a misunderstanding and there does not appear to be any doubt about these signatures/thumbprints and that is pretty well verifiable."

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16242

In regards to NED funding of democracy worldwide I support it, as does Kerry (wants to raise funding) and 99.9% of Congress.

[9215]

84. You go way to far

with this.

Frank is inquiring and casting doubt he is not convinced of anything.

He is also unaware, I am quite sure, of the scope of the corruption on the opposition side both in the foreign money involved and the employers coercion of voters.

What is so interesting about this is that Frank is really not too bright by any measure. He may have "spoken out against the American government’s involvement with any unconstitutional effort to overthrow your government..." but it hasn't done any good and THAT needs to be remembered.

Now he moves from this worthless speaking out to pressuring Chavez. What Frank should have done is say he will not make a stand on the issues he raises in this letter until the Bush fascists remove themselves from the situation.

Not only this but Frank puts Chavez in a position of having to prove "non-involvement" in the deaths of opposition members.

[windansea]

86. Barney Frank is a very sharp guy

and I'm sure he is quite well informed after being briefed by Carter Center....if you think he does not know the NED has funded opposition groups then I have a bridge to sell you.

[9215]

88. One thing I know is you can't assume much in politics. I've

given politicos info, even in areas of their speciality, and they didn't know it. The way he and Carter ignore this very important aspect of the situation in Venezuela makes it hard to imagine they know about it, or the extent of it. They would have, at least entered it into their assessment as an unknown.


Edit: punctuation.

[OilemFirchen]

118. Delicious

The headline:

"US Congressman Barney Frank has "no confidence" in the constitutional autonomy of Venezuela's National Elections Council (CNE)"

The quote:

"If it (my information) turns out wrong I will retract my statement, but I'm afraid that my impression was that pressure had been put on the CNE or the majority members and I could not have a lot of confidence in the validity of that process where people who had admittedly signed would have to come back and verify ... if they sign and put their thumb print there, what's the point in making them come back?"


Where does Frank say he has "no confidence"? Why, it's right here, dripping from the author's fevered brow:

"Besides which he says clearly that he has "no confidence" in the autonomy of the Venezuelan CNE..."

Uh huh.

Does anyone in the VZ media understand journaliistic standards? (And, yes, OP, I know that Carson's ostensibly a Chavista. Some people will buy it, no matter the cost, hook line and sinker. Know what I mean, windandsea?)

[windansea]

139. what do you think Frank is saying?

is he applauding Chavez for supporting democratic rights??

no...he is calling him out for oppressive tactics...he adds a qualifier but the meat of the message is quite apparent and very clear...

you are hereby awarded the spinmaster award for creative deflection of the obvious intent of plain english by way of a pro chavez headline...

[9215]

47. No way, You are selective in your scrutiny. You

care more about what is happening in Venezuela than in the US. Your actions are unprincipled, you cannot act principled on one issue and then ignore that same issue when it comes up somewhere else.

[windansea]

52. LOL...its a free country

I can scrutinize anything I want!!

:hi:

[9215]

59. I'm not talking about "rights", I'm talking about intellectual and

moral integrity!

In Venezuela you have a big bully, the US, hiring its thugs to derail a democratically elected leader and we have people like you clamoring about the rights of the thugs as they go about it!!

Nothing more than a hawker for thugs.

[windansea]

60. yep...Jimmy Carter the US thug

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Monday ordered electoral authorities to lift their objections against more than 800,000 disputed opposition signatures seeking a referendum against President Hugo Chavez.

The ruling by the court's Electoral Chamber, which heralded a bitter legal battle over the referendum process, boosted opposition hopes to secure a recall vote this year on the rule of the leftist leader.

Electoral officials decided March 2 that the opposition had initially failed to secure enough valid signatures to trigger the referendum. Foes of Chavez, who need to reconfirm 600,000 signatures to meet the referendum target, had appealed to the Supreme Court against the National Electoral Council decision to order a recheck of the questioned signatures.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venez ...



As international observers, our objectives are to assure that the process is transparent, complying with the laws and regulations of the country; that it respects the will of the citizens; and that the citizens and the actors have confidence in the process and the results. We have expressed privately and publicly the international criteria for general principles that guide this type of process. These principles include transparency and controls to prevent fraud, as well as the promotion of the participation of the citizens.

In this process, in particular, we find sufficient controls, including security paper for the petitions, full identification of the citizen with signature and thumbprint, summary forms (actas) listing the petition (planillas) serial numbers during the collection process, party witnesses, personnel trained and designated by the CNE, verification of each petition form and a cross-check with the summary forms, a cross-check of the names with the voters list, and a mechanism for appeal and correction.

http://www.jimmycarter.org/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

[9215]

65. Carter doesn't even address the issues raised

in my post!

The opposition rolling out the red carpet for Carter and other observers was done because they had the game rigged before people went to vote! That should be obvious from the information I provided.

Quite simply Carter's efforts are insufficient in scope. What the fuck good does it do to monitor the voting process when the votes are bought and paid for by a foreign power, or coerced by an employer, prior to going to the voting booth?? It's like trying to get a grip on the meaning of a movie by only watching half of it.

To add more confusion Chavez was probably handed false info on some of the voters and he unknowingly presented it as fact.



All of this shit will be sorted out in the future, but I'm afraid, not until some serious blood is spilled.


Windy, are you being paid to do this? I want to know, because I am not and I don't see how you can find the time to keep this disinfo campaign going and hold down a fulltime job at the same time.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

66. Kick !!!!!!!

:toast:

[AP]

68. I guess W. is going to have to take that line out of his autoreply

defense of the opposition.

[windansea]

69. Chavez accepted the Carter Center oversight

of course this was before he knew he was losing the battle for public opinion.

and no I'm not getting paid, but my girlfriend is quite persuasive...

[9215]

71. Does she have more than a casual interest in this?

Like a vested interest?

If not what kind of "assets" does she intice you with?


The point I made is that Carter does not address the serious problems I presented here. Why Chavez has not articulated this is a mystery.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

74. Since you brought her up

does she come from a wealthy family or is she part of the 80% in poverty?

[windansea]

75. middle class

and if you look at the photos of both sides demonstrating in this link, you will see that both sides have dark skinned native poor people involved.

click on slide show

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venezuela_dc_1

[AP]

76. Does your wife have blond hair? What do her parents do for a living?

What do you do for a living?

[windansea]

78. none of your business

did you look at the photos? did you see all the dark skinned brunnettes in the opposition marches? they don't look like wealthy elites to me...kinda blows a hole in your theories

[AP]

80. You can't have it both ways. Your personal life can't give you all sorts

of superior insight, and then you can't refuse to tell us what that personal life is.

If you're going to keep pretending that your wife is the reason you know better than anyone else, you're going to have to tell us how rich your wife is and whether her parents work for a bank or an oil company.

[windansea]

82. already told you

they are middle class and no..they don't work for a bank or oil company.

my insight comes from my girlfriend, many friends and trips to venezuela, and paying attention to people and orgs I believe in like carter, Frank, AI, HRW etc etc

why don't you tell us where your insight comes from? perhaps you admire Chavez buddies like Castro, Mugabe, Hussein, or Khatami???

I don't admire those people do you? Chavez does....

Even Lula is loosing patience with Chavez

[AP]

83. I admire people fighting neoliberalism. I don't admire its apologists.

[windansea]

112. answer the question

do you admire Castro, Mugabe, Khatami etc?

you ask a lot of questions but never answer directly.

[AP]

120. see post 119. Remember that picture you posted of the NG?

Well I respect the NG in that picture AND the homeless man whose life they're trying to save from those assholes in the opposition.

I respect people standing up to the fascism of neoliberalism.

And I have a question for you: aren't you ashamed to have spread a lie about that picture? Do you nave no sense of decency? At long last, do you have no sense of decency?

Answer the question. Directly.

[9215]

87. To be fair he did say she was "gorgeous".

See post #77. We don't want to get ((too personal)).

[AP]

90. I don't doubt that she is. It's the only way to explain the extent to

which this poor, unemployed man is going to win her love.

[9215]

93. Yea, but he also said she was "quite persuasive".

I mean the only thing a gorgeous women needs to persuade me to do is lie: everything else comes naturally and needs no coaxing, hee, hee.

[Judi Lynn]

99. I wonder if she would want to persuade him not to post photos

of Venezuelan females attending the "protests" wearing bikinis, etc. and commenting on them to complete strangers about their "attractiveness," as he sees it.

Incidently, those "protests" look more like photo ops to me, and I had to wonder if they didn't see going "down to the demonstration to get my fair share of abuse" as a good chance to get on right-wing tv, or a photo in the local right-wing owned newspaper! I mean, WHY wear bathing suits?

Odd as hell.

[AP]

101. Psst. That's what the Nazis did. They fetished fascism. It's a trick as

old as the hills for fascism.

I'm glad windansea did that.

True colors shining through.

[Judi Lynn]

105. Leaves a very odd impression, doesn't it? Yuck.

Makes you think of insanity, of a group gone totally around the bend.

[windansea]

142. LOL

so you are against venezuelan females wearing bikinis??

we better alert NOW....

the travesty of it all...venezuelan females wearing what they choose while participating in democratic marches...

in a tropical climate!!!

this should be outlawed and I should be jailed for expressing pleasure at viewing pics of these lascivious and wanton protestors

OUTLAW ALL BIKINI WEARERS IMMEDIATELY!!!!

[Judi Lynn]

96. Oh, yeah! Nothing like applying reason, is there?

You make an excellent point. I believe the visiting poster should probably ask his beloved to post for herself, instead of channeling through such an imperfect vessel.

Maybe some of the hundreds of Venezuelan friends could also share their opinions, and insights: some first hand experience.

I, rather, and many here, respect the first-hand experience of DEMOCRATS who have lived in Venezuela, and the superlative Pescao and the other DU'ers who have been there while being Democrats! They have a point of view we know we honor. Their principles are sound.

[AP]

98. "Channeling through an imperfect vessel" heh heh: "I can talk to fascists"

Windansea has a sixth sense.

[Judi Lynn]

102. Who WOULDN'T want to psychically be in touch

with Venezuelan coup-plotters?

[pescao]

129. u make me blush!

so happy u found my paranoid rantings to be of some interest; having u and the others to talk to over there during the coup really helped. and of course, your continued friendship is a joy.

[windansea]

77. she's a freakin venezuelan

from a middle class family, some of whom were Chavez supporters previously...I'm not going to be rewarded monetarily if Chavez is recalled...beyond that her assets are none of your business...she is quite gorgeous though...:)

[9215]

79. thats what I figured--

she does have ((desirable assets)). Nothing wrong with that, I like a woman who is easy on the eyes too, but I'd have trouble living with myself afterwords. ;)

[windansea]

81. oh please

I sleep quite well thanks...you like Chavez...fine...please allow me to have my opinion and don't assume you have the moral high ground.

Chavez still has a lot of people fooled here but fortunately not in Venezuela...where it matters.

[9215]

85. What exactly has Chavez done

anyway to cause this paradigm shift in the population?

Seriously, we know that the pro-fascist media pumping out anti-Chavez crapola 24/7 is managing perceptions nicely, but what about the substantive things Chavez has done that are so bad.



PS.It's hard for me to believe that your wife's "gorgeousness" hasn't tainted your opinion just a tinsy weensy bit. You did say she is quite persuasive. I've known a few knock outs that were too and its tough to walk away sometimes.

[windansea]

89. you could begin by reading this

100 Good Reasons Not to Believe Chavez

One of the most difficult points to put across to foreign readers, especially those who may be inclined to sympathize with a leftwing regime in a poor country, is the consistently, systematically, unabashedly deceptive nature of the Chavez regime. It's not that regime leaders lie now and then about this or that, it's that lying is their default mode, standard operating procedure, on most issues most of the time. This list contains just 100 particularly public and blatant lies - but comes very far from exhausting the possibilities. In a proper democracy, any one of these lies would have set off a major scandal, and any two or three of them together might set off a constitutional crisis. In Venezuela, they're so common, they barely make the headlines anymore.


list of 100 lies scroll down

http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/archives/2004_03_07_caracaschronicles_archive.html#107882789928481325

[9215]

91. This link doesn't work for me

Why don't you post the 100lies.

But before that look at the fascist chimp we have as a dictator in this country and I ask you for the 1000 time. WHEN are you going to voice outrage windy????

What would your girlfriend do, or not do, if you couldn't be "persuaded"?

[windansea]

95. first 10 lies

TAKEN: M. Madrigal. Lied about illegal funding during the 1998 election campaign: President Chavez took $1.5 million in illegal campaign contributions from Spain's Banco Bilbao Viscaya and lied about it. The contributions were only discovered due to a judicial investigation by judge Baltazar Garzon in Spain. No investigation was carried out in Venezuela before, during, or after the Spanish inquiry.


TAKEN: Lin. Lied about Bolivar's teachings: President Chavez has consistently portrayed Bolivar - Venezuela's 19th century national - as a proto-Marxist. Scholars agree that Bolivar was no such thing - he was a 19th century style liberal.


TAKEN: BN. Lied about the legality of the June 1999 referendum: President Chavez claimed to have the legal authority to convene a referendum on whether to call a constituent assembly to write a new constitution. The legal framework in force at the time contained no such provision.


TAKEN: Lin. Lied about the missing payments to FIEM: The government has lied systematically over a period of years over the funding of the Macroeconomic Stabilization Fund - FIEM - designed to even out oil revenues between high oil price years and low oil price years. In 2001, payments worth $2 billion dollars earmarked for the fund simply disappeared.


Lied about the corruption in Plan Bolivar: The regime has consistently dismissed allegations of corruption at the military social-cooperation plan, despite bank security camera photos that show soldiers depositing Plan Bolivar checks into personal accounts. Such evidence incriminates, among many others, General Jorge Garcia Carneiro, who instead of being charged and tried was promoted to "three-sun General" (equivalent to 5-stars in the US) and appointed Defense Minister.


Lied about the effectiveness and sustainability of the exchange rate bands: The regime said repeatedly the 1996-2002 exchange bands would stamp out inflation. Every independent economist in town knew it would merely store it up for later, and said so. The regime accused its critics of being unpatriotic. In 2002, the exchange bands collapsed and inflation shot up to the highest mark in Latin America today, precisely as critics had said.


Lied about the reasons behind capital flight: Ministers have questioned the patriotism of those shielding their savings in dollars instead of accepting the economic rationality that drove them (correctly) to do so. In 1998, a dollar was worth 500 bolivars. By the end of 2003, it was closer to 3000.


TAKEN: Cesar. Lied about reducing official perks: President Chavez initially made a major populist show, selling off PDVSA's corporate jet fleet in its entirety. Soon, though, he turned around and bought an $85 million luxury Airbus A319 for presidential use, among many other examples.


TAKEN: Juantxo. Lied about Oil-to-Cuba: President Chavez approved an oil supply deal for Fidel Castro's regime on concessionary terms. Despite the advantageous terms, the Cubans have fallen behind on their payments, but the government has refused to cut off supplies, as it would do to any other customer who didn't pay up. The government also denied it needed congressional approval for the treaty, which contravenes the Venezuelan constitution.


Lied about the sustainability of the domestic debt: The government presented its strategy to borrow money only in local currency as a coup for economic nationalism. Critics who called the strategy unsustainable were derided or ignored. This year, drowning in red ink, the government unveiled a plan to switch its bolivar debts for dollar-denominated bonds - without ever accepting responsibility for the original, catastrophically costly policy.

90 more here

http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/archives/2004_03_07_caracaschronicles_archive.html#107882789928481325

nothing wrong with a collaborative effort to substantiate lies by ordinary citizens is there?? I think it's very democratic

[9215]

104. So now you list the turds in the crock

of shit?????

You've got nothing none of this has been substantiated with linked sources.

[Judi Lynn]

106. Very "picturesque speech!"

And a sense of balance, as well.

[windansea]

111. Francisco is a good writer

especially when considering he's writing in a second language.

Making fun of his phraseology could be considered racist.

[AP]

113. You'd think that the defenders of wealth could spend a little money on

propaganda written for America audiences in passable English.

It's not about, um, race. It's a about business and about money.

[windansea]

116. passable english??

thats sounds both racist and anglo centric....the guys writes beautifully especially when you consider english is his sencond language..you wish you could do as well!!

[AP]

117. I take it back. It does have the gloss of expensive editing suitable for

propaganda purchased by wealthy businessmen for the purpose of fooling love-struck Americans and suckers for fascism.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

122. You're starting to sound quite defensive

and childish

[Mikimouse]

136. I have to jump in here, I cannot resist...

Sorry, but that argument holds no water. English is my second language as well, and I have no difficulty speaking or writing in it.
I also have relatives in Venezuela, some in Caracas, some in Maracay, and some in Maracaibo. They are all members of what was once the 'European Ruling class' in Venezuela. My cousin worked for Shell Oil back in the 60s and 70s. The only contact the family had with the Venezuelan citizenry was through the employment of servants. I made the trip to the outskirts of Caracas and witnessed the deplorable cardboard shanties there in 1969. It was more than disgusting, it was criminal. When the Venez government nationalized the oil holdings (in the 80s, if memory serves), there was a huge response from the European community in Venezuela, with some of my relatives suggesting that the government was returning to a Perez Jimenez type of rule. Obviously this has not happened, as the family is still there. My understanding of Chavez, from reading the thread and from other sources on this site that I have read, is that his main support comes from the poor and disadvantaged. Kudos to him. I have no love for plutocracies, nor do I respect the way in which my own family members treated the Venezuelans in the past.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

138. God Bless You!!!

May the prosperity due all people shine on your Family!!!

[Mikimouse]

141. Thank you for the kind words...

I am a firm believer in the philosophy that advocates that prosperity is only meaningful if it is shared. Some members of my family have forgotten that our ancestors coined our family motto for a reason ('Always be the example'). Not that I have done much better, but I keep trying.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

143. Beautiful

:toast:

[9215]

92. WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT!!!!!!

The goddamn idiot that wrote that didn't even have the fucking lies substantiated!!!!

This is at the beginning of the list:

Note: I am in the process of finding volunteers to help substantiate the items on this list. Items marked "TAKEN" have already found volunteers to substantiate them. Please download this Lie Substantiation Form <http://caracaschronicles.blogspot.com/Lie Substantiation Form.doc> and join in!]

Now I fucking know never to assume anything.

But then the next question about this blog is how did the guy who wrote it substantiate the substantiators?




What exactly has your girlfriend persuaded you to do?

Tell me you've got more than this.

[AP]

100. How many times is W going to pull shit like this before someone delcares

shenaningans on him and his girlfriend?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

103. As long as Chavez is in power

He's hooked on a feeling

[9215]

107. As the song goes. But if windy would just direct more

of those feelings to the object of his affection, (()), I think the world would be a better place. There's only one thing worse than being hooked on a gorgeous woman, hooked on her when she puts conditions on...(())...., well, you know what I mean.

[AP]

119. More lies the opposition (and windypants) told me:

Remember this picture windansea posted as evidence of the jack-booted thuggery of the pro-Chavez national guard?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/wl/030204venezuela&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=1&e=68&a=0

Well, here's the caption:

National Guard soldiers drag a homeless man out of the line of fire during brief clashes with anti-President Hugo Chavez protesters in an eastern Caracas plaza in Venezuela, Wednesday, March 3, 2004. (AP Photo/Javier Galeano)

So, um, not only were they not beating the guy up, they were saving his life from bullets and wrist rockets coming from the opposition. Furthermore, it was a homeless man -- you know, the kind of people whose intersts Chavez is protecting from the wealthy people with the guns and wrist rockets in every sense of the word "protect."

Interesting, huh?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

121. ha HA!!! Thanks for this post

:toast:

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pescao]

127. wonder if he knew the caption when he posted it?

somebody's swallowing bad propaganda...



National Guard soldiers drag a homeless man out of the line of fire during brief clashes with anti-President Hugo Chavez protesters in an eastern Caracas plaza in Venezuela, Wednesday, March 3, 2004. (AP Photo/Javier Galeano)

[AP]

130. It looks like the homeless guy was protesting the prosteters before

the NG saved him from getting shot by them:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/wl/030204venezuela&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=0&e=78&a=0&t=&prev=77

[AP]

131. look who's throwing molotov cocktails.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/wl/030204venezuela&a=&tmpl=sl&e=85&na=1&l=0&ns=&t=

[9215]

128. Nice catch!!

Let's see I remember he was plagiarizing at another topic, his main argument against Chavez is the "100 lies" (above) that are unsubstantiated and now this phony photo. I guess its time to call all of his crapola into question.



There are also rules here about deception.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

132. He sounds like Ari Fleischer is whispering in his ear as he posts.

I've suspected him of being a plant for Bush propaganda since the first post I read of his. But, to be fair, as my name suggests, he and I are bound to disagree. C'est la vie!

[AP]

135. Has windansea addressed this yet?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

137. No he has not but

Mr. Girlfriend has some new posts I must attend to. I'll be back.

P.s. - watch out for his response because, as my name suggests, he must discredit me at every pass, or the * administration will tip its hand.

Please don't sick your girlfriend on me Mr. Windansea!

[9215]

94. You missed my "wink"

smiley.

[windansea]

97. ok

forgiven :)

[9215]

108. So your crusade against Chavez, really

is more about pleasing your gorgeous girlfriend than any real interest in politics?

[windansea]

109. not at all

I just have a grudge against quasi populists that talk the talk but don't walk the walk...the gf just provides extra inspiration in this case, plus I know quite a bit about Venezuela.

[9215]

110. Which came first your vocal opposition to Chavez or

your gf? What does she do to "persuade" you?

And you never answer the question about being against Bush since his selection is so suspect and all the voting fraud working in his and other repugs favor. Your purportedly principled obsession with due process and democracy is simply not believable.

[dax]

124. Didn't windansea say they vacationed in Aruba?

Hardly where the 70% from the shantytowns go....

[windansea]

54. Yipee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's Supreme Court on Monday ordered electoral authorities to lift their objections against more than 800,000 disputed opposition signatures seeking a referendum against President Hugo Chavez.

The ruling by the court's Electoral Chamber, which heralded a bitter legal battle over the referendum process, boosted opposition hopes to secure a recall vote this year on the rule of the leftist leader.

Electoral officials decided March 2 that the opposition had initially failed to secure enough valid signatures to trigger the referendum. Foes of Chavez, who need to reconfirm 600,000 signatures to meet the referendum target, had appealed to the Supreme Court against the National Electoral Council decision to order a recheck of the questioned signatures.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040315/wl_nm/venez...

[redqueen]

57. Ki - Yay...

[9215]

64. A coup by other means.

It is a story of how a big powerful imperial power, the US, run by an unelected fascist used its money and influence to destroy democracy in a smaller country. It corrupted the election process by coercion, bribes and payoffs of one sort or another and the thugs who muscled the local population were touted as "freedom fighters" by zipperheads from the imperial power. People who are supporting the pro-fascists in Venezuela claiming the need for a fair referendum process are about as hypocritical as you can get. They ignore the corruption by the pro-fascists.

THERE CAN BE NO REFERENDUM IN VENEZUELA under these circumstances.

The rapid pace of events threatens to overrun the truth about who is behind the opposition and their treachery. The coup failed in 2002 and, even if the fascist forces win a temporary political victory here, they will run headlong into the same popular opposition they did in 2002 as the public learns the truth. Poor Venezuelans have had a taste of Constitutional government and they won't be going quietly into the night.

The chaos capitalists in the US are trying to speed events up to keep ahead of public awareness, but how long will they be able to do this?

[9215]

67. They should add to the criteria for evaluating the crediblity

of the voters a couple of other questions:

1)did you, or a family member, or a friend of you or a family member recieve any kickbacks, or the promise of kickbacks, for your vote?

2) ......coerced to vote for this measure through threat of losing a job, breaking of limbs, etc?

[Tinoire]

144. What an amazing thread.

So full of propaganda & transparent lies supporting Bush's little coups and abuse of people all over the world to protect certain greedy people's way of life.

Book-marking this one. It exposes pro-government agenda at work & speaks very much to people's credibility.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

145. I agree - this was a doozy

our good buddy Windansea is full of it. Overflowing with this stuff, even.