The Salt Lake woman and parenthood

[mrgorth]

The following poll is based on the possibly incorrect assumptions that the woman from Salt Lake City that declined a C-section resulted in the death of one of her twins, that she declined same because of a possible scar and that she is mentally sound (for the sake of arguement).

[AndyP]

1. do you have a link

to a news article about this? I haven't heard of it at all.

[Bridget Burke]

18. The whole story is linked here; I've included some background.

"He (Michael Sikora, her attorney) said Rowland, herself a twin, was born to a mentally retarded mother. She was placed in foster care almost immediately and adopted before her first birthday. Her twin brother had serious medical problems and died when he was 7, Sikora said.

"Rowland was committed to a Pennsylvania mental hospital when she was 12, weighing almost 200 pounds, and diagnosed with 'oppositional defiant disorder,' Sikora said. The American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry defines the condition as an ongoing pattern of uncooperative, defiant and hostile behavior toward authority figures that seriously interferes with day-to-day functioning.

"His client was hospitalized in a mental facility at least one other time and told him she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, Sikora said. The defense attorney is waiting for records to confirm that."

www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03122004/utah/147031.asp

[kiahzero]

2. Your poll is based off of bad assumptions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3504720.stm

And where in the original article did it say that she was worried about the cosmetic aspect of the scar? I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to undergo an operation if I thought I was going to be carved open like a cadaver in biology class.

[mrgorth]

9. That's irrelevant

This isn't a poll to determine her fate it's to analyze attitudes. If you think C-sections are "carved open like a cadaver in biology class" you're really not even worth discussing this with.

[kiahzero]

13. Um, it is like dissection

Clearly you didn't read the article. The woman was under the impression she'd be cut open from breast bone to public bone. That's pretty damn close, in terms of length of incision, to the dissections I did in biology class.

[mrgorth]

23. Indeed

and if that was the case I'd say "oh, she misunderstood" but that's not what this poll is about. You don't care what her reason was if I'm not mistaken.

[kiahzero]

26. No, not really

Because I'm a liberal, which means that I believe in individual rights. Like the an individual's inalienable right to decide on their own course of treatment.

[Goldom]

3. If the only reason she did it was to prevent a scar,

THAT'S disgusting. But that's -IF- that's why she did it.

[CatWoman]

4. another option to your poll

"Yeah, we really need yet another thread on this"

[iverglas]

17. or how about

"it's none of my fucking business".

That's my answer. None of my business, unless the woman in question had happened to ask for my opinion before making her decision and I was confident that I could answer in her best interests.

Since I don't know her, I have no plan to express any opinion about her decisions regarding her life and the integrity of her body.

Never a fan of witchhunts, me.

.

[CatWoman]

21. come back here, my little pretty!!!

[noiretextatique]

40. i'll second that

:toast:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Of course someone with MR as the preface of their name would create such

a poll.
Sorry, but your assumptions are sexist since you have NO IDEA what a woman's body does to her temperament and emotions during pregnancy even if one is mentally healthy.

[CatWoman]

6. careful Teena

he'll start another thread :scared:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Yes men judging women seems to be a popular sport at DU

[DoNotRefill]

29. Please, NSMA....

don't list me in that category.

We've disagreed on other issues, but not on this one.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. Not all men

and we have several points of agreement as well :D

[mrgorth]

7. And you don't know what the MR means

it's not Mr..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. So is your profile incorrect?

You are looking to prejudge this case without all the facts.

Let's put YOUR LIFE under a scalpel which is almost ALWAYS with risk and see what YOU would do.

[mrgorth]

19. How is my profile wrong?

I didn't say I wasn't a male. I said the MR didn't stand for Mr. Not sure where you're getting crossed up. And if I thought that something in my would save either of my kid's lives I'd rip it out with my bare hands.

[Karenina]

33. Your sentence is somewhat incomprehensible.

Are you saying you would kill the mother of your children to save them?

[mrgorth]

37. That

would be different. That's no longer my life. If presented with an option where only 1 could live between my wife or one of my children I would talk to my wife about it and we'd analyze risks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Where else would your child be in that you would rip it out with your bare

hands? ANother woman's birth canal? Sorry, but emotions have SO taken over you in the matter, that you are losing logic....

you said "I would rip it out with my bare hands"..then of course you BACKPEDALED when someone suggested you wife was in the picture.

Are you saying that if your wife simply did NOT want to undergo the risks of a c section you would rip a child out of her body with your bare hands?

That is what you appeared to say.

If that is what you said...you just advocated violence against a woman in order for your will to prevail.

[kayell]

8. I am a parent and this poll is reprehensible

This is an extremely flawed poll

Leading question, poor presentation of information, very limited poll questions designed to elicite the desired response. This poll is unworthy of CNN at it's lowest.

Try again.

How about, "I am a parent. This is a very tragic situation. We do not know enough to make an informed judgement."

and a whole pile of other options.

[outinforce]

15. Yes, By Golly!

"Leading question, poor presentation of information, very limited poll questions designed to elicite the desired response."

And THAT has never happened on DU before!

[kayell]

27. Happens all the time, but this is an extremely egregious example

of a bad poll. (yeah, I know thats a bit redundent, but i like the word egregious)

One reason I have never posted a poll here is that I don't have the skill not to insert my own bias, and thus get out of it the results I want.

[outinforce]

41. But Isn't It Truly Amazing

But isn't it truly amazing how some folks, who don't object to the bias inherent in other poll questions here on DU, get all bothered when someone poses a question that they happen to think is biased?

Why do you suppose that is?

[XanaDUer]

57. Maybe they have not seen all the polls on DU, all the time.

:shrug:

[Alenne]

12. It seems odd that she refused to have a C-section

when she has already had two prior. Which means she would already have a scar. There is obviously more to this story.

From the link above

"I've never refused a C-section. I've already had two prior C-sections. Why would I say something like that?" Ms Rowland said.

[supernova]

14. So mrgorth, what are you hoping to prove with this "poll?"

Help me out here. :shrug:

[mrgorth]

16. Prove? nothing

Because I am a parent I simply cannot imagine any sane person in the above situation not opting for the c-section. So, I am testing a hypothesis. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Hell, I didn't even make any accusations.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. No sane person would agree to have something the size of a watermelon

come out a hole the size of a lemon.

[outinforce]

25. It's Probably A Good Thing

"No sane person would agree to have something the size of a watermelon come out a hole the size of a lemon."

It's probably a good thing, for the survival of our species, that they have been, are, and will continue to be, so many insane people.

[Bridget Burke]

22. I'm not a parent & she's not sane.

Please try to get more information.

[mrgorth]

28. Irrelevant

the poll is barely about the woman anymore. The whole poll is based on certain conditions that were presented. If you don't want to participate, don't.

[supernova]

30. This whole poll is irrelevant

because she does have a history of mental illness.

You're asking about a set of conditions that don't exist in this case.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. No the poll is based on conditions you would like to believe were present

so that you may enforce your judgement on another woman's body.

[mrgorth]

34. Yeah, that's it

you got me. I'm an evil male oppressor, not a loving father.

[kiahzero]

35. If the shoe fits, you should wear it. (n/t)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. What does this have to do with your fatherhood?

Personalizing this is what is clouding your judgement.

[mrgorth]

39. Maybe so.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. I sure wouldn't want you on my jury

weighing your own emotions more forcefully than the facts.

(and I am not attacking you personally...I am saying this thread and the other thread you started on this subject consider only a small portion of the facts and give those facts far less weight than your emotional response to the limited facts that you choose to present)

[mrgorth]

46. Well you sure seem to be

Do you really think a lawyer would let me sit on such a jury? I am not trying to paint this woman in any worse terms at all. In fact, I hope she is deemed mentally ill or the whole thing turns out to be false as it would restore some of what little faith in humanity I have left. Again, I set the poll with certain conditions to test a theory which seems to be wrong. I'm testing attitudes not trying to judge said woman.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. OK. But I guess the problem that I have is this

There are horror stories all the time. Teens giving birth and putting their babies in trashcans...this story..in the manner in which it was presented on AP...and the like...what SEEMS to be missing in ALL of these stories is any ACCURATE consideration of the mother...

a fact of life is...there are some horrible women and horrible men on the planet..do we REALLY want to decide how we approach ALL ISSUES in life based on the few and based on the "freak" occurrences...even if this woman SOLELY did NOT want a scar...where do we draw the line on forcing risky procedures? What if she had some other concern? Who SHOULD decide what is valid? What if this were the REST of YOUR life not hers? How does this RISE to the level of premeditated MURDER which assumes an INTENT TO KILL.

[Skittles]

55. you being a loving dad has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

the subject is CAN THE GOVERNMENT FORCE YOU TO HAVE SURGERY AGAINST YOUR WILL. She's not doing what ANY of *US* would do. But that is NOT THE POINT.

[Bridget Burke]

38. I've participated by adding links to her real story...

In two of your threads. You've managed to ignore the truth.

You're trying to make a cute, intellectual game out of a dreadful story.

As a father--why don't you speak up for the father in the case.

[mrgorth]

44. In the first thread

as soon as I learned of the possible mental illness I said that that would present an entirely different set of circumstances. Not sure what else I can tell you there.

The poll, again, is me testing a hypothesis which I appear to be wrong on.

I have no idea what her relationship with the father is. I assure you that I'm no more lenient on men who shirk their responsibilities.

[Walt Starr]

50. Her mental state presents no other circumstances.

The government has no right to force any citizen to undergo surgical procedures against their will.

We are talking about basic human rights and a person's right to refuse surgical procedures.

Otherwise, you are a murderer unless you immediately have one of your kidneys removed. If you do not immediately donate a kidney, I guarantee you somebody in the world will die.

[DoNotRefill]

24. You haven't yet explained....

where the State would get the legal power to force a competent adult to have major surgery against her will.

[iverglas]

56. ah, there he goes

Sucking up again. ;)

(I'd do one of those glass-clinking stupidfacethingies if I knew how.)

I suppose there are things that I might call "right" or "wrong" even if I couldn't justify compelling or prohibiting them, but I'd sure think long and hard before doing it publicly when the thing in question was someone's decision about her own life and body. And I'd need a pretty good reason for doing it, which I'm not seeing in this case.

We have to stop meeting like this, or tongues will be wagging in the gun dungeon.

.

[noiretextatique]

42. and of course...you know this woman has a history of mental illness

by now, don't you? did you know THAT when you started this poll?

[mrgorth]

47. Yes, I know that

One more time...I was testing a hypothesis. I'm not trying to prove this woman's guilt. Verstehen Sie?

[noiretextatique]

52. okey dokey

whatever floats your boat. at least you do mention the hypothesis is based on (possibly)...now definitely, incorrect information.

[Walt Starr]

45. I have no respect for anybody who thinks it's okay for the government

to force a person to undergo major surgery against their will.

[Skittles]

49. thank you

can you imagine if they were trying to force such a thing on a MAN? No f***ing way.

[Walt Starr]

51. That's why I've been telling those people who support government

forcing surgery upon people that either they immediately undergo surgery to remove a kidney or they are murderers.

[Skittles]

54. OUTSTANDING WALT

:thumbsup:

[SarahB]

58. Women are at 4-8 times the risk of death with a c-section

It's statistics. The US does 11-16% more c-section than the World Health Organization recomends. Not that this thread went anywhere before, but here it is again:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1226843