Sad news from the "wind industry"

[Wonco_the_Sane]

I just googled this cuz I was arguing "peak oil" with a friend of mine. I have to say I didn't believe wind power could be so cruel. :( Anyway, I'm still for alternative energy of course. I'd be crazy not to be. I just have a lot to learn is all.
Speaking of a lot to learn I don't know how to post so I'm just going to copy the location down...if/when that doesn't work just google "windmills killing birds" and sadly a lot of info shows up.
http//www.ncpa.org/studies/renew/renew2d.html
Wind isn't the only answer I know, but what bothers me most is this...
Can ANY industry in this country produce and be economically viable without doing great harm to nature, and or lying to the public, or otherwise being a greedy succubus???? I mean this is WIND fer Criminy sakes! Cheese and crackers! Gosh Almighty! (pant, pant) sigh

http//www.abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/windmills_kill_birds_techtv_040206.html
Sorry friends...some days it's just hard to have hope for our speices...the sad thing is, somehow I still do. :(

Hey link works!!!...Sorry first time...I'm kinda jazzed.
man I suck :)

[aquart]

1. Windmills have been around for centuries.

Are all the birds in the Netherlands dead?

[Wonco_the_Sane]

4. Yes, there are no birds in the Netherlands

Sorry, check the link goofball. The point is building thousands to help replace the oil problem, has problems of its own. I'm just admitting I have a lot to learn and maybe you do too.

[RapidCreek]

57. How many birds you suppose die as a result

of the burning of fossil fuels? Quite a bit more than those killed by windmills. Christ that is the stupidest argument I ever heard. Birds fly into shit all the time....windows, airplanes, antennas, cars, me while I'm riding my bike....

How many birds die as a result of Nuc plant cooling effluent heating the bodies of water they are on....subsequently killing the ecosystems which depend on those bodies of water to survive....The Indian River plant near Stewart Beach Florida comes to mind.

If you consider this to be a valid argument...awe shit...why even bother... Suffice it to say the birds killed flying into windmills will hardly compare to those killed as a result of currently popular sources of energy....and it don't take a genius to see that.

RC

[BlueEyedSon]

5. Modern windmills are quite different.

In order to make effective use of land acreage and produce usable amounts of electricity, the tips of those blades are going mighty fast.

Disclaimer: I support Wind and Solar power as alternatives to oil, gas, coal and nukes. I do not know the bird-kill stats or if they are significant.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

9. I think it is significant

However I too support solar hydro and other friendly sources. If you google "windmills killing birds" you will see MANY more sites and info (though I ignored the faux news one by default)

[mouse7]

55. How many birds die from oil spills?

Remember the hundreds of thousands of birds killed in Prince William Sound with the Exxon Valdez oilspill? Think of the birds that would be saved if we didn't have to transport as much oil all over the world in supertankers.

[RapidCreek]

63. If you'd like to learn a little about wind power go

here to the Native Energy Site




Copy and paste the following link (nativeenergy.com/images/Rosebud%20Press%20Photos/566419-R1-14A.jpg) for a better picture. As you can see this ain't your mommas living room fan. It's pretty difficult to miss.

RC

[BlueEyedSon]

12. OTOH, that link is a total WINGNUT SITE.

"The president's tax cuts should be made permanent"
"Insourcing" employs 6.2 million Americans"
"Philanthropy is key to America's economy (IOW dismantle govt social programs)"

BOD:
Thomas W. Smith, Managing Partner of Prescott Investors
Pete du Pont, Richards, Layton & Finger
John C. Goodman, President, NCPA
Don A. Buchholz, Chairman of the Board, SWS Group, Inc.
Dan W. Cook III, Senior Advisor, MHT Partners
Virginia Manheimer, Trustee, The Hickory Foundation
Fred Meyer, President,CEO,& COB, Aladdin Industries, LLC.
Henry J. "Bud" Smith, Chairman The Trinity Forum
James Cleo Thompson, Jr., Chairman of the Board, Thompson Petroleum Corporation
Jere W. Thompson, President, The Williamsburg Corporation
Michael L. Whalen, President & CEO, Heart of America Restaurants & Inns

[Comadreja]

69. I live in a windfarm conflict area

Kittitas County, Wa. The Zilkha Co. has been trying for the longest time to set up windfarms here, and the latest Environmental Impact Statement debunked about every objection except visual impact. The blades are NOT fast moving, and bird kills are very low. NIMBYs have come up with al kinds of phony potential problems. Some of them would live close to the turbines, and I understand their objections. But the other objectors have future subdivision land sales in mind, which would crate a much more negative visiual impact that these turbines, IMO.

[AP]

2. More probably die from polution and cancers.

[KuroKensaki]

3. Grilles?

If we put grilles around the blades of the windmills, it seems like bird mortality would be a nonissue.

Solar power is good and as far as I know totally clean.

Hydroelectric power can be good or very, very bad. Something like the Hoover Dam would be very bad for the local environment, but a great number of very small generators along banks of a river wouldn't interfere with the local environment.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. Scarecrows?

[BlueEyedSon]

17. Really big cat statues?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

40. Would that save them from exsphinxtion?

:shrug:

[texastoast]

21. That might be an option

It would seem that it would (naturally) increase the cost of construction. I think the wind industry might be much more open to that than the oil industry is to anything that reduces profits because oil is nonrenewable.

[ctex]

36. A very big grille -- the blades are 36.8 meters (120 ft) long.

For example, the 2 MegaWatt wind turbines off the coast of Denmark have blades that are over 120 ft long or a diameter greater than 240 ft.

It would take quite a structure to hold a grille of that size. Also, to keep out bird the mesh of the grille would need to be fairly small. And, the smaller the mesh, the greater the pressure drop acroos the grille which would rob the turbine of a portion of its power generation capacity.

[charlie]

38. Not to mention

that the grilles would have to be routinely cleaned, a big job, and one that would likely require the turbine be stopped. I don't even know if you can stop those things.

[Xithras]

53. On top of that

Yes, you can stop them. They do it all the time when they're being maintained.

The bigger problem is that most windmills have adjustable heads that can be pointed in different directions to compensate for local variances in wind direction. That means that any protective cage would have to be freestanding and attached to the head...like an oscillating fan. It's easy enough to build one 12" across, but 120 feet? It would be structurally difficult to build one capable of withstanding high winds, earthquakes, and all of the other situation they would be exposed to. A caged turbine would be top heavy and unstable.

[RapidCreek]

60. Check this link

http://www.nativeenergy.com/wind-farms.html

Ours in South Dakota are 150 feet across.

RC

[Llewlladdwr]

62. Not workable.

The windmills used to generate power are quite large. A grill wouldn't be feasible. This ignores all the other problems with wind of course, such as the fact that it's not really scalable.

[Cinic]

70. I'm no physicist...

...but I think the grille would also inhibit much of the air flow. This would make the generator less efficient and possibly not economical at all. I don't know what kind of margins they're operating on now.

[lutherj]

6. I think this article is out of date

I've seen more recent articles about wind power and the issue of avian death is being addressed. They have designed new blades, changed how they locate the windmills, etc. Unfortunately I don't have a link.

[Wickerman]

7. Sorry, its bullshit

I don't know crap about wind energy but these are just a few of the sites I found on a very quick google because I thought the post went against what I have casually heard. Lets not do the work of the oil industry for them.

http://www.wind-works.org/articles/cm_birdcuisinarts.html
....The Sierra Club acknowledges the statement, regrets the unfortunate imagery used, and maintains its longstanding support of wind energy when developed and operated in an environmentally responsible manner.



http://www.energy.iastate.edu/renewable/wind/wem/wem-12_enviro.html

...Effects on Wildlife

In general, wind turbines are not a hazard to wildlife. Cattle are willing to graze next to them, and sufficient clearance between the blades and ground prevents injury to cattle, deer and other animals. There have been reports of bird kills in a few areas of the world where large numbers of wind turbines are concentrated. However there is little evidence that single installations or small clusters of wind turbines kill birds in significant numbers. By nature, local birds avoid wind turbines by flying around them, and migrating birds tend to fly well above wind turbine height. Some concern may be warranted in areas where birds concentrate, such as in wildlife refuges or shoreline feeding and nesting areas.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

16. Thank you for links

As I said, I have a lot to learn. I don't think I'm doing the oil companies work for em however, I believe in researching good and bad in all ideas, not just the ones I like the sound of. I thank you for your help in that regard. :)

[IrateCitizen]

8. Bird flocks maintain certain "flight corridors"...

... just like if you walk through the woods in the NE, you'll see deer trails. The key to placing wind generators in areas in which they will LEAST impact birds is to ensure that you are not placing them in a flight corridor.

You're always going to lose some birds, but the only way to completely avoid any kind of negative impact on the environment would be to go back to the days of hunting/gathering and using flint-tipped spears.

[RapidCreek]

61. Interesting

My neighborhood is being developed. We have deer trails in the area that have no doubt existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. Oddly when a new house is built across one of these trails the deer don't run into the house....they walk around it. WOW...everyone knows the stagering intellect deers possess....you know those animals that stand in front of your car until you smash them on the road? Golly...I'm thinkin if a deer is dumb enough to run headlong into a new house that is in his way...it's probably best that he is extracted from the gene pool. Those who possess the intellect to walk around the house shall survive.

RC

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. Noise is another problem

Modern day windmill farms are very noisy.

However, sailboaters use windmills very effectively. A small one is enough to keep your batteries powered and I don't recall any problems with birds. People who live in windy areas probably could do something on an individual basis. The technology is there for boats, it would be easy to adapt.

[jpak]

30. I visited wind farms in Denmark

They were VERY quiet - even during periods of low surface wind speed.

I had to get right up to them to hear anything at all and even then it was no more than a gentle whooshing sound.

I also spent several weeks at this location bird watching (avid birder).

There were plenty of sea birds, water fowl and passerines flying nearby.

But I never saw a single dead bird at the turbine site - not one!

[DoYouEverWonder]

42. Some are better than others

There are numerous wind farms that have had problems. However, it does seem that a lot of the problems they had when they first started out are being resolved.

However, I do think that decentralizing how we create power is better. If each home had their own or a local source of power we would have a more sustainable and secure system for producing energy. What I am suggesting is that rather than having huge wind farms, we should each have our own windmill or solar panels or whatever works best depending upon local conditions. Some people are already hooking up to their local garbage dumps. There's plenty of fuel for energy on the planet, it's just that oil should no longer be the main source and wind energy needs to be utilized and it can all be done in ways that will make a much bigger difference environmentally.

[KuroKensaki]

56. What is wind power?

Another thing people need to realize is that all forms of power we take from our planet (the only exceptions I can think of are geothermic and nuclear) are solar power. Oil included. Oil is a byproduct of ancient vegetation that took millions of years to form, and which was fueled when alive by the sun. Coal is the same. We couldn't have wood burning without trees, and trees take their soul nourishment from the sun. The sun causes differences in air temperature which causes differences in pressure which causes wind. The sun evaporates water causing clouds causing precipitation feeding rivers, from which we take hydroelectric power.

The Earth is a completely closed system -except- for the Sun's energy that is constantly raining down on us. By relying on one source of solar energy (oil) most prevalently, we're using up the oil that exists right now. More oil is being produced by nature somewhere in the world, but is it being produced at the same rate we're using it? Hell no.

There are some alternatives we need to look at, and we need to look at them SOON.

Nuclear power--Nuclear fission is dangerous and dirty, though it gets the job done. However it, too, is a nonrenewable resource--we have a finite amount of fissile material in our planet's crust, and once we've mined it all, we'll have the same problem we have now with oil. Nuclear fusion is cleaner but extremely difficult and, if not controlled, can be even more dangerous than fission. In a way, nuclear fusion would -also- be a form of solar power, in that the sun is itself a giant nuclear fusion power plant.

Harnessing solar power on our planet more efficiently--This would include oil, coal, wood, hydroelectric, wind, and solar panels. If we did a combination of all of these (phasing out oil, coal, and wood of course in the long run) we could make an environmentally-friendly balance with our environment. HOWEVER! We also need to deal with the problem of overpopulation. There are TOO MANY PEOPLE in the world, and if we want everyone to benefit, there has to be enough power to go around. The energy the sun gives us is at a finite rate, though effectively endless. We cannot change that. What we can change is how many people we need to spread the energy around to. What are the solutions to overpopulation? Oh, I don't know, maybe EDUCATION and CONTRACEPTION.

Harnessing solar power in other ways--The moon is a giant rock. It has no ecosystem to destroy, it has no population to support. One half of the moon is always in direct sunlight except during a solar eclipse. We can get there. We can stay there if need be. If * wants to go to the moon, let's do something useful while we're there--turn it into a solar power farm. Redirection of the sunlight would allow us to harness the power (rather than just having it sit on the moon charging a bunch of capacitors). But why stop there? There are other areas that have no ecosystem to disrupt that we could take from--like high orbit, for instance. We have thousands of geosynchronous satellites in orbit. The thing about a geosynchronous satellite is, it doesn't require ANY power to keep it aloft. I dunno about you guys, but I see power generation in orbit as a possibility.

Long-winded post. But the point I'm trying to make is... We need to make it one of our greatest priorities, as a world rather than a nation, to kick the oil habit. Because it's going to run out within our lifetime. We need RESEARCH, we need it FUNDED, and we need it NOW, or electricity will become like health insurance is starting to become... The rich control it, the poor can't afford it.

[ParanoidPat]

66. Great rant and very true!

If starting tomorrow, every new home built had the long axis solar oriented, that is north / south facing, and utilized trombe walls to help reduce heating and cooling costs, the energy savings would more than equal any net energy gains from drilling in the Alaska Wildlife Refuge.

If starting tomorrow, all of the current manufacturers of photo voltaic solar panels and solar hot water collectors started building in modular forms that would replace standard 4'x 8' plywood roofing panels by straddling and mounting to normal stud spacing instead of the conventional 'mount it on top' styles they've developed so far, many more developers and contractors would jump on the solar bandwagon.

If starting tomorrow, every new supermarket used refrigerators and freezers that utilized a central chiller loop and dumped their waste heat into a heat exchanger to pre-heat hot water rather than into the building for the air conditioning system to move yet again, we could avoid building dozens of additional fossil fuel power plants.

If starting tomorrow frogs grew wings.....:(



The first Honda Civic Hybrid I helped design and develop for
Solar Car Corp. of Melbourne Florida in 1990.
The DOT tried to regulate it out of existence,
and the DOE refused to help fund the research.
Fortunately, the engineers at Honda saw it for
what it was and ran with the idea.
We never made a dime on it. :(

[qb]

13. Is the NCPA a right-wing group?

The last time I heard about the murderous windmill issue was when Gale "Dioxin Girl" Norton used it to argue against wind power. I do not believe the facts are on her side, or that she even gives a sh*t about the poor little birdies.

The windmills I have seen in western Minnesota (hundreds of them) rotate at a leisurely rate even in strong winds. The occasional bird might be unlucky enough to fly into one of the blades, but windmills are not the Cuisinarts they're made out to be.

[AP]

14. Other favorite argument by oil industry: they're ugly.

Personally, I'd rather look at a wind turbine than a cooling tower or at a tail pipe. In fact, they look quite beautiful when you think of them that way.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. Prettier than a belching smokestack!

[truth2power]

52. Are you kidding??

Is that the best those bozos can do? "They're ugly"? They must be really scraping to get some negative spin...

[HydroAddict]

15. Let's not forget about...

Wave/buoyancy, and lightening/electrostatic!

All combined off-shore with wind and solar cruising around the ocean looking for storms (or not), and you got one hell of an alternative to nuclear power. Giant floating safe energy producing islands.

I'm still waiting for some company to begin such a project, because I dying to invest!

[texastoast]

25. Good idea

Who has some money?

[HydroAddict]

35. Thanks Toast...

I think these guys have got the ball rolling in the right direction...

http://www.owec.com

[ParanoidPat]

39. Hi HydroAddict! Are you hip to OTEC?

Visit the Ocean Energy Thermal Conversion Homepage.

OTEC, or ocean thermal energy conversion, is an energy technology that converts solar radiation to electric power. OTEC systems use the ocean's natural thermal gradient—the fact that the ocean's layers of water have different temperatures—to drive a power-producing cycle. As long as the temperature between the warm surface water and the cold deep water differs by about 20°C (36°F), an OTEC system can produce a significant amount of power. The oceans are thus a vast renewable resource, with the potential to help us produce billions of watts of electric power. This potential is estimated to be about 1013 watts of baseload power generation, according to some experts. The cold, deep seawater used in the OTEC process is also rich in nutrients, and it can be used to culture both marine organisms and plant life near the shore or on land.

<More>

Here's a Fact Sheet with the pro's & con's. :)

[HydroAddict]

49. Thanks ParanoidPat!

I can't believe I'd completely forgotten about OTEC. I remember reading about it awhile back when I was visiting my Grandparents in Hawaii. Yet another awesome technology that takes advantage of our largest resource (oceans), yet to be fully developed.

[ParanoidPat]

54. Yeah, there are just so many technologies that can help.......

.....but each by itself are scoffed at as 'not a replacement for' the status quo. We desperately need to create our own 'meme' to sell the idea of alternatives. Something like, "10 @ 10", ten alternative technologies, each replacing ten percent of the energy. :evilgrin:

The next time someone says 'but that can never replace all of the ______', look them in the eye, smile and just say 10 at 10. Then take control of the conversation by explaining the concept. :)

On the bright side, the only way I can see for us to get out of the economic mess we're in and restore all of the manufacturing jobs that have been lost is to face 'peak oil' head on and put America back to work designing and building the energy systems required for a sustainable 'fossil fuel free' future.
We became the worlds leader in computer technologies before we outsourced those jobs. I don't see any reason why we can't become the worlds leader in alternative energy production and use to replace them.
That's part of what made Al 'Earth in the Balance' Gore such a threat in 2000. He had expressed plans to that effect and the powers that be just couldn't allow it. :(

[trekbiker]

18. windmill bird kills

windmill bird kills, specifically, raptor kills are a well known documented problem. The largest factor seems to be the RPM's of the windmill blades... the birds just cant see them or react in time to avoid them. The latest generation of windmills are much larger and spin much slower, around 20 RPM's, and this has done a lot to reduce bird kills. Older designs were around 120 to 180 rpms.

Old world windmills, like the picturesque Dutch types used for water pumping and grain grinding, turned so slowly and were so big I doubt they killed any birds at all.

[texastoast]

23. Hello there and Welcome

Noticing your name, do you ride a Trek?

[BlueEyedSon]

24. As a reality check, you should think about how bird populations

have suffered from the destruction of their natural habitats to build subdivions of McMansions and malls. Now add DDT and other pollutants.

[KoKo]

27. Surely there's a way with grids or placement which could work.

Don't see giving up when there's much innovation that could fix this problem if folks got together who know birds and flight patterns and those who know to design a better windmill.

They aren't very pretty on the landscape, though. And applying grills would make them look worse....competing with those ugly towers everywhere.

[newyawker99]

68. Hi trekbiker!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Viking12]

20. First

check out your source:

The National Center for Policy Analysis is a "communications and research foundation dedicated to providing free market solutions to today's public policy problems ... prides itself on aggressively marketing its products for maximum impact by 'targeting key political leaders and special interest groups, establishing on-going ties with members of the print and electronic media, and testifying before Congress, federal agencies, state lawmakers, and national organizations.'" -- NCRP, The Strategic Philanthropy of Conservative Foundations

Funding
The NCPA web site states that it "receives 70% of its funding from foundations, 20% from corporations, and 10% from individuals." Between 1985 and 2001, the Center received $4,031,000 in 75 separate grants from only twelve foundations.


Castle Rock Foundation
Earhart Foundation
JM Foundation
Koch Family Foundations (David H. Koch Foundation, Charles G. Koch Foundation, Claude R. Lambe Foundation)
John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation
Philip M. McKenna Foundation, Inc.
Scaife Foundations (Scaife Family, Sarah Mellon Scaife, Carthage)
DaimlerChrysler Corporation Fund
El Paso Energy Foundation
ExxonMobil Foundation
Eli Lilly and Company Foundation
Lilly Endowment Inc.
Procter & Gamble Fund

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=National_Center_for_Policy_Analysis

Second check out non-industry sources:

The bird experts at the Audubon Society are more concerned about the 10,000 to 20,000 communications towers expected to go up in coming years. "In general, the wind energy industry has substantially reduced bird deaths and has been successful in addressing the problem," Plumart says.

The American Bird Conservancy says that habitat loss (e.g. suburban sprawl) is the biggest threat. But if people want to save birds, the group says, they should rein in the nation's 40 million domestic cats with outdoor privileges, which slaughter hundreds of millions of birds each year. Keep the cats inside, the group advises.

In fact, Cato's report calculates that if every gigawatt in the U.S. came from wind, the turbines would kill 4.4 million birds a year. That's paltry by comparison to Kitty's toll. Still, others dispute Cato's data.

According to the industry group American Wind Energy Association (AWEA), public attention has focused on the Altamont Pass wind farm in California, where unusually high numbers of raptors die, in part due to old technology and unfavorable siting of the turbines. According to some estimates, as many as three dozen golden eagles die there annually. Cato, incidentally, used figures from this wind farm to help calculate its bird-mortality rates. AWEA, which is working with the government to study the impact of windmills, says that studies of other sites indicate that each turbine causes the death of one or two birds per year.

"It would be great if all electricity sources were given the same scrutiny," says Christine Real de Azua, an AWEA spokeswoman. She points out that traditional power sources impact birds as well. For example, mountain-top removal coal mining decimates vast habitat, and toxic emissions from power plants are threatening loons and other wildlife, not to mention the potential impact from fossil-fuel induced climate change.

So why do windmills, and not suburban sprawl, skyscrapers, communications towers, prowling cats, and trigger-happy kids pique the ire of these newfound bird lovers? Why aren't they lobbying for mandatory cat muzzles? Audubon's Plumart calls the rhetoric hyped up. "I think they're being disingenuous. I don't think they're worried about birds at all."

As Jack Cole, a radio talk show host in Florida, points out, when pro-polluter flacks "like the Washington Legal Foundation are worried that windmills will despoil the landscape and kill birds, you know the technology must be promising."

"Nuclear power generates nuclear waste. Coal fired power plants generate acid rain, smog, global warming. Wind is clean and it can and is being used safely for wildlife," says the Sierra Club's Mesnikoff.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/4351

[BlueEyedSon]

26. You go, Viking12!

[Wonco_the_Sane]

32. Whoa

This is why DU rocks!!
Thank you very much...I have some real info to take back to my friend now, hope you don't mind if I print your post???

[DrWeird]

22. My building kills birds.

That is to say the sky bridge killed birds. At least before they put up silhouettes of birds of prey.

[mopinko]

28. i'm not a lawyer, but

i'm pretty sure this part is bullshit-
" Some of the bird kills at Altamont Pass are a federal crime under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act; killing Bald Eagles is also a crime under the Bald Eagle Protection Act. The United States Fish and Wildlife Service is considering prosecution."

do they sue the power companies when birds are fried on power lines? do you get charged with violating the endagered species act if you hit an animal with your car? can we apply a smell test to this info?

[AP]

43. To be convicted of a crime, you have to have criminal intent, and there's

no way in the world putting up a wind turbine is going to satisfy any intent requirement (even if it's recklessness).

In other words, if you kill an endangered animal accidentally, you have committed a crime. If your windturbine kills one, or one jumps in front of your car when you're driviing, you haven't committed a crime.

[Xithras]

50. Not BS, but not the full story

Yes, the FWS is considering prosecution of some energy companies operating in the Altamont pass, but not simply because the turbines killed birds. Research and experimentation have shown that a few simple steps can reduce bird deaths...like painting the blades with certain colors or patterns, changing the spin rate and diameter of the blades, and by eliminating spots on the towers that the birds try to use for nesting.

Most of the towers in the Altamont have been brought into compliance, and the bird deaths near them have dropped substantially. Other tower owners have ignored these findings and their turbines continue to kill countless birds. As an example:

This older turbine at the Altamont pass uses an open frame that encourages bird nesting, and narrower blades that have to spin at higher RPM's to generate power. Contrast with these newer turbines. The newer ones have no nesting areas, and use wider blades capable of generating the same power at lower RPM's.

If the energy companies refuse to implement even rudimentary changes to protect endangered species (how hard is it to clad the frame with light aluminum or fiberglass?) then they SHOULD be prosecuted under federal law.

[Xithras]

51. Oh, and I nearly forgot...

do they sue the power companies when birds are fried on power lines?

FYI, half of the bird kills in the Altamont canyon area are the result of birds landing on and being electrocuted by the distribution equipment. Again, the fix is simple...sharp edged wire covers or inexpensive plastic caps to prevent birds from landing on the poles and shorting the wires. Again, most aren't a problem, but some owners insist on ignoring common sense. THOSE are the companies being threatened with prosecution.

[pinto]

29. on posting:

right click address bar of the story link you want to post(it ought to get shaded), left click "copy" in the pop up menu. your computer will hold this "copy" command for you. got to DU post site, right click in the DU message box and choose "paste". link should insert in message box. almost the same for copying text....hold left click and drag down text you want to post, it will shade, with cursor in shaded area right click and choose "copy", etc. Easiest if you have DU open in one window and web page of story open in another. hope this makes sense.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

33. Thank you so much

I've wondered for awhile now.

P.S. Why are my friends so hostile to liberals and DU??? I'm finding the coolest people!!

[SoCalDem]

41. To answer your "P.S."

First of all..welcome :hi:

At DU, we deal in facts..substantiated by "mainstream" recognition. Any "faux-facts" that are touting information that come from an organization that is diametrically opposed to what they are reporting is ALWAYS suspect..

Our friend Gail is a prime example.. How on earth could anyoone believe anything she has to say about "clean envirnments" when she spent YEARS DEFENDING corporate polluters.. lead..dioxin..you name it..

We have "hypocrisy" antennae :)and we check facts and locate the source of their funding.. "He, who pays the piper, calls the tune"..

[damnraddem]

31. Nothing comes free.

But wind energy comes freer than most forms. Mining and burning coal; developing oil fields, pumping and burning oil and gas; mining nuclear ore, running nuclear-power plants, having no adequate way to dispose of nuclear waste -- all of these are far-more harmful of the environment, and of fauna in the environment.

I support massive development of wind energy and urge others to do so.

[BlueEyedSon]

34. The truly sad news....

The major barrier to wind farms being extremely profitable is their efficiency. Even in optimal locations, they are not producing their peak power very often. Also, power output is not linear with wind speed, so less wind speed (below optimal) means MUCH less electricity.

Hydrocarbon and nuke plants can produce juice on demand and/or all the time.

So for wind, some energy storage is required (think Hydrogen) or conventional backup to keep the grid live. Unfortunately this applies to solar as well.

[AP]

44. Technology is alwasy improving. I'm sure I've read that just in the last

ten years, there's been a huge improvement in the technology.

[Nihil]

67. Ok, it's not suitable to be the ONLY resource

That doesn't alter the fact that it can - and should - become a MAJOR
resource. Let the wind, water, solar power be trickle chargers and
keep a few others for peak load capability.

A few years ago I went round a nuclear power station in Anglesey (North
Wales) and, in addition to the publicity stuff about quantity of power
produced vs alternative technologies, they obviously covered the speed
factor - the time taken to come from idle/standby to fully online in
order to meet a demand peak. One point that they did point out though
was that the wind-farm just along the coast provided most of the steady
state demand for the local villages: the nuclear plant was really there
to pump power into the grid for the mainland. This leads to the use of
wind/wave/solar plants for local domestic needs with other, high power,
sources for heavy industry demands or grid balance requirements.

BTW, a hydroelectric station (including pumped storage) can come online
much quicker than a coal/oil/gas station (and sometimes even quicker
than a nuclear one) so don't assume that the peak load issue *requires*
fossil fuel retention.

Nihil

[ParanoidPat]

37. Aircraft bird strikes, loss of breeding habitat due to logging,.....

.....and the effects of acid rain from coal fired power plants, oil spills and petrolium product runoff into ponds, lakes and streams, all do more harm to birds, and a much wider array of species, including us. :(

A good magician gets you to focus on one hand while he does his 'trick' with the other. Don't lose sight of the big picture here. :evilgrin:

Windmills work. No one can deny that fact. The same technology that protects against bird strikes at the airport can be used to protect windfarms. Judging by the number of feathered 'pavement pelts' I constantly see, I'd venture to guess that more birds are hit by cars every day than by windmills. :) Just another perspective.

[treepig]

45. windmills v. cats - who wins the title of viscious killer?

score one for the cats:

Recent research <10> suggests that rural free-ranging domestic cats in Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year. The most reasonable estimates indicate that 39 million birds are killed in the state each year. Nationwide, rural cats probably kill over a billion small mammals and hundreds of millions of birds each year.

http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm

[ParanoidPat]

Well I guess we can't use cats for energy, now what?

:evilgrin:

[MAlibdem]

46. Put them in the ocean

Like they're planning for the Cape Wind project. My uncle is so excited because they'll create an artificial reef for fishing.

[Xithras]

47. Altamont is a special case

FYI, my sister is a wildlife vet, and she participated in an Altamont bird kill survey while studying at U.C. Davis. In her words: "Those things are bird blenders!" During their survey, they found the remains of hundreds of birds, many of which were protected or endangered species.

Does this mean that wind power is bad? No. Altamont is a testament to poor planning and the importance of environmental impact reports. It was a great idea built in the wrong place. It sits right next to one of the last major California breeding areas for the golden eagle, and it at the right in the middle of several migratory flyways.

Poor planning, not poor technology, are the causes of the problems here. Windmills and windmill farms built in less sensitive areas still kill birds, but not nearly in the same numbers as Altamont...and yet EVERY article decrying the deaths of birds in these windmill farms cites the numbers from the Altamont surveys. There IS an agenda at work here.

[mumon]

48. stupid, stupid article!

Just put a friggin' cover on it like your fan at home!

[BlueEyedSon]

58. Birds are pretty smart, they'll figure it out

[Llewlladdwr]

64. Uh, no.

They haven't even 'figured out' power lines yet.

[Forkboy]

59. The birds will be fine

whereas if we keep with oil the birds wont be the only species up shit creek.

[burrowowl]

65. When windmills are not located in

bird migratory paths, there is not much birdkill.
Sites have to be studied and blades marked so that they appear solid to birds and they will avoid them.