Which side are you on? Zimbabwean land reform or post-colonialism?

[AP]

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Wow, what a balanced poll

LOL

[AP]

2. Nobody cared about Zimbabwe until this was the choice people had to make.

[hellhathnofury]

4. Hmmmm.....

I can either vote biased or biased.

[cosmicdot]

3. Zimbabwe facts and background ... from BBCnews.com

Your 2,104 search results for "Zimbabwe "

ZIMBABWE FACTS



Population: 12.9 million (UN, 2003)

Capital: Harare

Major language: English (official), Shona, Sindebele

Major religions: Christianity, indigenous beliefs

Life expectancy: 34 years (men), 33 years (women) (UN)

Monetary unit: 1 Zimbabwe dollar = 100 cents

Main exports: Tobacco, cotton, agricultural products, gold, minerals

Average annual income: US $480 (World Bank, 2001)

Internet domain: .zw

International dialing code: +263





Country profile: Zimbabwe

The fortunes of Zimbabwe have for more than two decades been tied to President Robert Mugabe, who wrested control from a small white community and put the country on a stable course.
However, he now presides over political and social strife and an economy which is in tatters.


Moreover, Zimbabwe's problematical relationship with the Commonwealth - it was suspended from the organisation after President Mugabe's controversial re-election in 2002 and in December 2003 announced it was pulling out for good - has been a source of great embarrassment for the country's neighbours.

OVERVIEW


Zimbabwe is home to the Victoria Falls, regarded as one of the natural wonders of the world, the stone enclosures of Great Zimbabwe - remnants of a past empire - and to herds of elephant and other game roaming vast stretches of wilderness.

For years it has been the world's third biggest source of tobacco and is potentially a bread basket for surrounding countries which often depend on food imports.

But the seizure of almost all white-owned commercial agricultural land, with the stated aim of benefiting black farmers, led to sharp falls in production. By 2003 millions of Zimbabweans were thought to be at risk of famine.

Aid agencies and critics partly blamed food shortages on the land reform programme; the government blamed a long-running drought.

The former Rhodesia has been the scene of much conflict, with white settlers dispossessing the resident population, guerrilla armies forcing the white government to submit to elections, and the post-independence leadership committing atrocities in southern areas where it lacked the support of the Matabele people.

The country's current challenges include the need to address political stalemate, the economic crisis and one of the world's highest rates of HIV/Aids infection.




LEADERS

President: Robert Mugabe


Robert Mugabe played a key role in ending white rule in Rhodesia and he and his Zanu-PF party have dominated Zimbabwe's politics since independence in 1980.
He has only recently faced any serious challenge to his authority, in the form of popular protest and substantial gains for the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC). The MDC has refused to recognise Mr Mugabe as head of state.

Mr Mugabe was declared winner of the 2002 presidential elections, considered seriously flawed by the opposition and foreign observers.

Ideologically, he belongs to the African liberationist tradition of the 1960s - strong and ruthless leadership, anti-Western, suspicious of capitalism and deeply intolerant of dissent and opposition.

His economic policies are widely seen as being geared to short-term political expediency and the maintenance of power for himself.


MEDIA


All broadcasters transmitting from Zimbabwean soil and the main newspapers are state-controlled and toe the government line.

The private press, relatively vigorous in its criticism of the government, has come under severe pressure. Publication of the only privately-owned daily, the Daily News, has been severely disrupted. The paper and the government have waged war in the courts.

Ahead of the 2002 presidential elections the government passed a restrictive media law which was condemned by the EU, the US and media rights organisations. A further law, passed in March 2002, led to the arrests of many journalists, some of them accused of reporting "false news".

State-run Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation (ZBC) has two TV channels. The second channel was leased to private station Joy TV until the agreement was cancelled in May 2002. Some of Joy TV's programming was said to have ruffled government feathers. Its demise left ZBC as the sole TV and radio broadcaster.

No private radio stations transmit from within Zimbabwe, but the Voice of the People, set up by former ZBC staff with funding from the Soros Foundation and the Dutch NGO HIVOS, operates using a leased shortwave transmitter in Madagascar.

Another station, SW Radio Africa, began broadcasting to Zimbabwe via shortwave and the internet in December 2001. It aimed to "give listeners unbiased information so they can make informed choices...". The Harare government accused the US and Britain of financing the station.

The press
The Herald - government-owned daily The Daily News - private daily; persistently critical of government The Financial Gazette - private The Standard - private Zimbabwe Independent - private The Sunday Mirror - Harare The Insider - Bulawayo, business-oriented news site

Television
Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation (ZBC) - state-run

Radio
Zimbabwe Broadcasting Corporation (ZBC) - state-run radio, operates four networks SW Radio Africa - studio in London, broadcasts to Zimbabwe via overseas shortwave transmitter Voice of the People - studio in Harare, broadcasts to Zimbabwe from hired shortwave transmitter on Madagascar

News agency
Zimbabwe Inter-Africa News Agency

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1064589.stm


Mist from plummeting Zambezi is sometimes visible for miles
Shared by Zimbabwe, Zambia
108 metre (355 feet) drop
Named after Queen Victoria by explorer David Livingstone

Timeline: Zimbabwe

A chronology of key events:


1830s - Ndebele people fleeing Zulu violence and Boer migration in present-day South Africa move north and settle in what becomes known as Matabeleland.

The Shona have already been established for centuries in present-day Zimbabwe.

1830-1890s - European hunters, traders and missionaries explore the region from the south. They include Cecil John Rhodes.

1889 - Rhodes' British South Africa Company (BSA) gains a British mandate to colonise what becomes Southern Rhodesia.


Whites settle

1890 - Pioneer column of white settlers arrives from south at site of future capital Harare.

1893 - Ndebele uprising against BSA rule is crushed.

1922 - BSA administration ends, the white minority opts for self-government.

1930 - Land Apportionment Act restricts black access to land, forcing many into wage labour.


IAN SMITH

Supporter of white rule, declared unilateral independence Ian Smith announces independence

1930-1960s - Black opposition to colonial rule grows. Emergence in the 1960s of nationalist groups - the Zimbabwe African People's Union (Zapu) and the Zimbabwe African National Union (Zanu).

1953 - Britain creates the Central African Federation, made up of Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), Northern Rhodesia (Zambia) and Nyasaland (Malawi).

1963 - Federation breaks up when Zambia and Malawi gain independence.


Smith declares UDI

1964 - Ian Smith of the Rhodesian Front (RF) becomes prime minister, tries to persuade Britain to grant independence.

1965 - Smith unilaterally declares independence under white minority rule, sparking international outrage and economic sanctions.

1972 - Guerrilla war against white rule intensifies, with rivals Zanu and Zapu operating out of Zambia and Mozambique.


1978 - Smith yields to pressure for negotiated settlement. Elections for transitional legislature boycotted by Patriotic Front made up of Zanu and Zapu. New government of Zimbabwe Rhodesia, led by Bishop Abel Muzorewa, fails to gain international recognition. Civil war continues.

1979 - British-brokered all-party talks at Lancaster House in London lead to a peace agreement and new constitution, which guarantees minority rights.


Independence


JOSHUA NKOMO
'Umdala Wethu' - our old man - was friend, then rival, of Mugabe

1980 - Veteran pro-independence leader Robert Mugabe and his Zanu party win British-supervised independence elections. Mugabe is named prime minister and includes Zapu leader Joshua Nkomo in his cabinet. Independence on 18 April is internationally recognised.
1982 - Mugabe sacks Nkomo, accusing him of preparing to overthrow the government. North Korean-trained Fifth Brigade deployed to crush rebellion by pro-Nkomo ex-guerrillas in Midlands and Matabeleland provinces. Government forces are accused of killing thousands of civilians over next few years.

1987 - Mugabe, Nkomo merge their parties to form Zanu-PF, ending the violence in southern areas.

1987 - Mugabe changes constitution, becomes executive president.

1991 - The Commonwealth adopts the Harare Declaration at its summit in Zimbabwe, reaffirming its aims of fostering international peace and security, democracy, freedom of the individual and equal rights for all.

1998 - Economic crisis accompanied by riots and strikes.

1999 - Economic crisis persists, Zimbabwe's military involvement in the Democratic Republic of the Congo civil war becomes increasingly unpopular. Formation of opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).


Farm seizures


INDEPENDENCE
Rhodesia changed its name, elected Robert Mugabe as PM

2000 February - Squatters seize hundreds of white-owned farms in an ongoing and violent campaign to reclaim what they say was stolen by settlers. Mugabe suffers defeat in referendum on draft constitution.
2000 June - Parliamentary elections: Zanu-PF narrowly fights off a challenge from the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) led by Morgan Tsvangirai, but loses its power to change the constitution.

2001 May - Defence Minister Moven Mahachi killed in a car crash - the second minister to die in that way in a month.

2001 July - Finance Minister Simba Makoni publicly acknowledges economic crisis, saying Zimbabwe's foreign reserves have run out and warning the country faces serious food shortages. Most western donors, including the World Bank and the IMF, have cut aid because of Mugabe's land seizure programme.

2001 October - Visiting Commonwealth ministers say the government has done little to honour commitments to end the crisis over the seizure of white-owned land.

2002 February - Parliament passes a law limiting media freedom. The European Union imposes sanctions on Zimbabwe and pulls out its election observers after the EU team leader is expelled.

2002 March - Mugabe re-elected in presidential elections condemned as seriously flawed by the opposition and foreign observers. Commonwealth suspends Zimbabwe from its councils for a year after concluding that elections were marred by high levels of violence.

Food shortages

2002 April - State of disaster declared as worsening food shortages threaten famine. Government blames drought, the UN's World Food Programme says disruption to agriculture is a contributing factor.



BATTLE FOR LAND

War veterans spearheaded occupation of white-owned farms 2000: Gavin Hewitt reports on farm seizures
2002 June - 45-day countdown for some 2,900 white farmers to leave their land begins, under terms of a land-acquisition law passed in May.

2002 September - Commonwealth committee - including leaders of South Africa, Nigeria and Australia - fails to agree on further sanctions against President Mugabe.

2002 November - Agriculture Minister Joseph Made says the land-grab is over. He says the government has seized 35m acres of land from white farmers.

Protests

2003 March - Widely-observed general strike is followed by the arrests - and reported beatings - of hundreds of people. A BBC correspondent says the evidence points to a crackdown of "unprecedented brutality".

2003 June - Opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) leader Morgan Tsvangirai is arrested twice, amid a week of opposition protests. He is charged with treason, adding to an existing treason charge from 2002 over an alleged plot to kill President Mugabe.

2003 November - Canaan Banana, Zimbabwe's first black president, dies aged 67.

2003 December - Zimbabwe pulls out of Commonwealth after organisation decides to extend suspension of country indefinitely.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1831470.stm

[Virginian]

5. If it's right for the goose, isn't it also right for the gander?

If I knew what the words Stiglitz and oligarch meant, I might be better able to vote in your poll.

If the land owned by white farmers in Zimbabwe should be given back to the original inhabitants of the region, then should the land owned by white farmers in the US also revert back to the original inhabitants?

There are LOTS of things I don't know about this issue, can you answer some of my questions?
Did the White Farmers originally buy the land or did they homestead it like some areas in the US?
Was the land in Zimbabwe already farmland when it became the property of the white farmers, or was it fallow and only became farmland because it was owned by white farmers?
Are the white farmers citizens of Zimbabwe?
Did the white farmers provide schools to educate the children of the workers or did children have to work in the fields with no time off for school? Did Zimbabwe provide any schools?
Did the white farmers add value to the economy of the country by hiring local workers or did they import the labor from white countries? Were the farm workers permanent or sharecroppers or migrant workers?
Are the white farmers being given fair market value for their farms and farm equipment so that they can go somewhere else to start over? Can older farmers keep their homes as long as they give up the rest of their land?
Are the new owners farmers? Do they know how to run a farm?
If the farm workers were original inhabitants, are they the ones getting the farms because they know how to run them?
Why are the farms no longer producing as they did before this land reform? I have heard that Zimbabwe was once the Breadbasket of Africa and could afford to export food. Now I hear that people in Zimbabwe are going hungry.
Is it only farms that are reverting back to the original inhabitants or are other businesses being reclaimed as well?

[AP]

14. Sorry. In the '80s the white farmers who murdered to get the land

promissed to give it back and then renegged until Mugabe set the time limit.

They never argued that it was wrong to give it back. They just prayed some overwhelming imperialist force would prevent them from having to keep their word.

There really is no legitimate debate that Zimbabweans don't deserve the land that was stolen from them.

[Virginian]

18. In the 80s White farmers Murdered to get land?

Are you saying all the farms were taken over in the 80s by white farmers murdering black farmers?

Mugabe was ruling then. That doesn't fit into any time line.

On edit:
You didn't answer any of my questions, now I'm even more confused.

As a matter of consistency, If you think that the land reform in Zim is fair, do you suggest the same for the US? Should all property here revert to the Native Americans? The European settlers in this country were very cruel to the native population. I would tend to believe the settlers were much worse in North America than in Southern Africa.

[AP]

19. In the 80s they fought a deadly war which killed many blacks to hold onto

land they later admitted they weren't entitled to keep.

So, yes, they murdered to get land, and they murdered to keep it.

[Virginian]

21. But the whites quit fighting in 1979 and Mugabe was elected in 1980.

The fighting in the 1980s was with opposition parties, not with white farmers. (See the time-line posted above)
Farmers don't usually fight, they farm. Soldiers usually fight. In the war for independence in the 1970s, I believe the police were trying to stop the uprising, not the farmers.

You still didn't answer any of my questions. I still want to know if the US should also have land reform and return all land to Native Americans.

[noiretextatique]

22. YES...the US should have land reform

some land and should be returned to native americans. some land should be returned to african-americans (like the families of those who survived the tulsa and rosewood massacres) screwed by jim crow laws. i know a lot of folks lost oil-rich land in texas and oklahoma. and...to japanese-americans who lost land when jailed during WW2.
and no doubt...poor people of all races who got screwed out of their property in this country.

[AP]

23. We give native americans land back, but it's all crappy land. We put

billions in a trust fund for them. And then BIA insiders rob it blind. We give native americans casinos to make up for all of it, which is a real double-edged sword.

It's not the principles with which anyone disagrees. It's the execution of the priniciples. And that's what happened in Zimbabwe.

In the early 80s the white farmers promissed to give it all back because they knew they didn't get good title to the land by killing people for it. But they thought the tories and the rest of the western world would save them from having to keep their promise.

[RichardRay]

6. I'm voting contrarian just because of the way this is worded

It reminds me of the terminology used in criticism/self-criticism sessions. Is that a coincidence?

[hellhathnofury]

8. I did the same.

[mistertrickster]

7. This is what the rhetorticians call a false dilemma. Paying white

farmers the going rate plus a little more for the inconvenience is land reform. Having a bunch of armed thugs shoot the whites dead and stealing the land is not.

[hellhathnofury]

9. Fair poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1204809

Robert Mugabe: Yea or Nay?

[Elwood P Dowd]

10. Give Mugabe 10 more years in power

and that country will cease to exist. Aids and starvation will make it a wasteland. What a shame. Some of the best farmland in the world totally wasted by an idiot.

[Character Assassin]

11. I'm for not attempting to force false dichotomies onto complex systems

[Jose Diablo]

12. Shouldn't there be a 3rd answer?

Neither of the choices seem true to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Exactly right

Try the other poll instead.

[noiretextatique]

20. focusing on mugabe doesn't address land reform

at all. as some others have mentioned, that is the real issue.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Then perhaps a REAL poll is in order

Not this one.

[AP]

25. This is actually the real issue. Nobody complained about Mugabe until

he embarked on land reform.

he's no angel, but the west doesn't get to sabotage land reform like this.

Why don't you complain about Nepal. What they're doing is possibly much worse than Mugabe. The fascists controlled by the oil industry possibly executed an entire royal family because they were about to embark on a little social justice and land reform.

[Aidoneus]

15. land reform

don't care much for Mugabe, but he's finally on the right track with that (carries a great deal of baggage with him, 'tho, and that's EXACTLY why he was for years the very best friend of all of those calling for his head now--funny how that worked out).

[AP]

16. I agree with this sentiment.

[ulTRAX]

17. what a joke

It's certainly not a poll worth voting in since it tries to impose an ideological interpretation on events... thus limiting options rather than trying to deal with complex issues or gage real opinions. Man... with that kind of rhetoric I feel like it's the 1970's and I'm back at the BigU learning about the glories of Marxism!

[Moderator]

26. Locking

Rules to start discussion threads in the General Discussion forum

1. If you start a thread in the General Discussion forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. Some examples of things which should generally be avoided are: unnecessarily hot rhetoric, nicknames for prominent Democrats or their supporters, broad-brush statements about groups of people, single-sentence "drive-by" thread topics, etc.