Which side are you on? Aristide's or the State Department's?

[AP]

[AP]

1. kick

[AP]

2. Just want to see if this one will get locked too.

Although, like the others, I'm baffeled as to why they're getting locked.

[AP]

3. I think my characterization of the sides is 100% accurate, the results

aren't even close, and there is a very narrow sub-set of DU'ers who don't like the poll results, and it's not because they're inflamatory. It's because they're revealing.

[Bandit]

20. I'm for Democracy and not necessarily for Aristide

Obviously the Bush* Cabal is not for either Democracy or Aristide.

[AP]

4. Still waiting to get locked.

This post is no different from the other two.

Why doesn't it get locked?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1204646&mesg_id=1204646

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1204653&mesg_id=1204653

[AP]

5. I also think the Hatian rebels are fascists protecting the interests of...

...the oligarchs, if that helps matters.

[YNGW]

6. Haiti

I talked last Friday night to a Haitian man who has a daughter in the same school class as my son. I asked him how his family was doing in Haiti, etc...

Here was his basic take on Aristide.

He said when Aristide became president many Hatians returned to the island, they were hoping he would be different than the others. Aristide was at one time a Catholic priest, so they had hoped he would be more in tune with the common people. Once he got in, it turned out he was just as corrupt as the others, ordering political assassinations, jailing his enemies, etc... He mentioned some incident where Aristide had one of his own supporters who questioned what he was doing killed, and now his brother is one of the top rebel leaders. He said that many of the rebels were former Aristide supporters who got tired of his corruption, which he claimed was something the news was not broadcasting. He's hoping his fellow citizens will find a leader who will treat the people the way they should.

It's his country, so I let him talk. Still, it opened my eyes to a lot of things of which I wasn't aware.

[thebigidea]

7. thank goodness for Guy Phillipe - he's just the man for the job!

[YNGW]

9. I dunno.

It's not my country, so I'll let the Haitian people settle their own matters. I hope they can find something that works. They certainly deserve it.

[thebigidea]

11. so you think this happened without US support?

The Haitian people are not settling their own matter here, the State Department seems to be.

[AP]

13. And, whenever people share anecdotes, I always ask,

can you get these people on to DU so that we can have a conversation with them so that this isn't hearsay info.

Also, I'm not surprised if relatively well-off people are willing to believe lies about Aristide after they leave for the US.

I had a friend who worked in a bakery when she was young. She said on Hitler's brithday, some old German guy came in to buy a specially-made cake they hid in the back. It was a swastika.

[thebigidea]

15. I know this one guy who said Hitler is living in his basement

he must be very old now, but I trust my friend very much and could see the sorrow stained across his face as he related the tragic tale of "Adolf in the Basement."

Why would he lie? I see no reason.

[YNGW]

17. Look, I'm just passing on a conversation.

This friend is far from being wealthy, although compared to most Haitians, he would be considered so, but not by US standards. Whether you believe me or not is up to you, I don't really care. I just passed on what the guy told me. You do with it what you want. Doesn't effect me at all either way.

[AP]

8. How do you reconcile that with this?

An alternative source of news about Haiti...looks like the Marines are helping the rebels. Surprise.

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=8420f019...

Haiti's Youth Fear The Return Of The Killers Of Street Children

Youth Commentary, By Johnny,
Pacific News Service, Mar 02, 2004
...

During the first coup in 1991 the street kids were attacked and Lafanmi Selavi was burned. Aristide came back from exile in October 1994 and it was a new world for the children. Three years of horror were over.
...

Yesterday at the Foundation I saw gangsters and criminals in army uniforms destroy the hopes and dreams of the Haitian people. They destroyed the building, burned books and killed many people. A new government run by these people will surely only be bad not only for the children but for all the people of Haiti.

..

The U.S. Marines stood by and did nothing while the library at the Aristide Foundation was burned. With my own eyes I saw the American Marines stand and watch while rebels cut a woman and shot her. I yelled at them, "Do something!" and they swung their guns around toward me and yelled, "Get back!"

...

We are fearful of the old army because they are those who killed the street children of Lafanmi Selavi. They killed the peasants in the North who wanted to have democracy and supported Aristide.

[AP]

10. And if Arsitide is so bad, why do the Times and Post have to do this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1205437

[YNGW]

12. I don't have to reconcile anything.

The man was telling me what was going on in his country. It was obviously very emotionally taxing on him. I politely listened. I have no reason to believe he would be making things up.

[thebigidea]

14. did you say his brother was one of the rebel leaders?

Or did you mean Aristide's brother?

If you meant this guys brother was one of the rebel leaders... ummm, dontcha think this influences his opinion a TAD?

[YNGW]

16. Here's what I said

>He mentioned some incident where Aristide had one of his own supporters who questioned what he was doing killed, and now his brother is one of the top rebel leaders.

In other words, this guy was one of Aristides guys who did something, questioned an order was how he put it, he didn't go into details about it. Aristide had him killed. It's that guy who got killed whose brother is one of the rebel leaders.

[seemslikeadream]

18. I'm on the side of these people

The Fire This Time in Haiti was US-Fueled
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0301-10.htm

THE SITUATION IN HAITI -- (Senate - March 04, 2004)Harkin

HAITI -- (Senate - March 04, 2004) Senator Leahy

Schakowsky: Bush Administration Misstatement - Haiti

Congresswoman Barbara Lee Questions Bush Administration

Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee Urgent Need for Aid in Haiti

Why They Had to Crush Aristide

The Truth about Haiti - Ms. Barbara Lee on the House floor

Senator Chris Dodd's statement on Haiti

Congresswoman Maxine Water's Statement on Kidnapping of Aristide

Reps Conyers, Meek of Flordia, Meeks of New York on Haiti

Read their statements here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=395091#402121

[seemslikeadream]

19. Failing Democracy

Quick, name 3 things that President Aristide did in Haiti to be over-thrown…? For most people this exercise would come up with the same answer, absolutely nothing. In fact, they may try to point out the things he did not do as the reason…but then, he never promised anyone a “rose garden”, just democracy.

“ARTICLE 41:
No person of Haitian nationality may be deported or forced to leave the national territory for any reason. No one may be deprived for political reasons of his legal capacity and his nationality.”

There are those who would condemn Aristide as “not a very good President…” but is that a reason to subvert the rule of law? Aristide should have been allowed to continue with the backing and support of the world, provided he was not committing any acts against the UN charter, or any crimes against humanity. His governance did not rise to such an extreme as to warrant the actions taken against him.

People who govern badly in a free and democratic society are removed through whatever legal means available or through the ballot box, not through armed rebellion, not through coup d’etats, not through force. Brutal regimes, dictators, fascist governments can, and should be over-turned by the members of their societies, should such a rebellion be derived from the will of the people. Democracies- especially one with mechanisms in place to remove the inept, imprison the corrupt, and vanquish the brutal- should come by change through the ballot box.

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_8339.shtml