What attacted me to the DU...

[MrSoundAndVision]

was the Democratic Underground I thought I might be a part of, not the Democrat Underground that isn't an underground at all.

Read the title. And if the owners have changed their opinions on the purpose of the site, the title ought to properly reflect that change in sentiment. They should be honest to those potential users that seek a forum for genuine open debate, the hallmark of a democratic society, and indicate that their criticisms of the Democratic party and it's probably candidate will not be tolerated.

The owner's of DU can have a site where the latter is policy. That's fine. But those of us that seek debate, even critical debate, need not be fooled into thinking that we are free to say what we want in this, underground?

[mike_c]

1. hmmm, have you been particularly burned?

I've found the DU mods extremely tolerant of criticism of the democratic party and its likely nominee. I'm often critical of both, and I've experienced much greater outrage from fellow DU'ers than from Skinner and the mods.

[lastknowngood]

2. It's a "progressive" site though it's getting pretty restricted

The Kerry supporters can't stand the heat they love to dish out so they want everybody to play nice and pretend. Perhaps they should start another site that will allow a more free exchange of ideas and opinions. I don't think the Kerry lovers have any idea how the fact that his wife not being an American will turn off alot of people and when the repugs note to the African American community that she is a
"Afrikaner", I know she is not in the South Africa sense, but they will damn sure use it suppress the vote. Trust me it won't be the shrub's hands directly on these charges but his KKK, anticrhisten right and other assorted assholes who support the shrub who will do it. Between that and the Hanoi John/Evil Liberal/French speaking ....
type of crap I expect him to lose 48 states.

[BillZBubb]

13. Wait a gol' darned minute there LKG

I'm an anybody (OK Democratic party anybody) but Bush* supporter. Whoever the nominee was going to be I would support. I now support Kerry for that reason. I would have gladly supported Clark, Dean, Edwards, or any of the other candidates if they got the nomination.

No matter which of our good candidates won the nomination, the Repug smear machine would go after them. They have just as much lying slime to lay on Dean, Clark, et al as Kerry.

If the Repugs go after Kerry's wife in any way, we go after Laura "manslaughter" Bush. One thing I really like about Kerry is he will fight back and fight back hard. Just as many Americans don't know Mrs Stepford killed a man as don't know where Kerry's wife was born.

Pick any other underhanded slime, and Kerry will have a similar response.

[MoonRiver]

19. And maybe you should start an "anti-Democratic Underground"

cause that's your line. Matter of fact your slurs against Kerry's wife about being an "Afrikaner" sound pretty darn fascist. Why don't you just mosey on back to Free Republic. :thumbsdown:

[boxster]

3. Perhaps you should take this up with the Admins,

instead of publicly questioning their motives.

That's what the Ask the Admins forum and PMs are for.

I agree with mike_c. The Admins have been incredibly tolerant of criticism of the Democratic Party, the party leadership, and the various candidates.

[MrSoundAndVision]

5. There is nothing to take up...

I've already told them my thoughts, in the ask an admin forum. No response. I just wanted to say what needed said.

This site is no underground.

[boxster]

6. No response? Look again - Skinner responded to you in 6 minutes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=13805

Skinner answered and requested that you contact him via PM.

Edit: frankly, I don't see how you could expect anything more than that. You asked a question; Skinner responded. He asked that you contact him and clarify the issue. What more do you want?

[MrSoundAndVision]

10. Shit do you live here or something?

He asked that I PM him, I must have missed it. Well I'm impressed by the both of you honestly. Though I don't think my post affected policy.

Generally I've been left to say what I want I must admit, except for the Israeli/Palestinean conflict, but I stay away from there now.

[boxster]

11. No, I just did a quick search of the Ask the Admins forum. Took all of 30

seconds.

When you claimed that you hadn't received a response, that seemed very unlike the Admins in that forum. They're usually pretty prompt unless they're completely swamped. So, I just did a quick search with the Search link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=search&select_forum=

And, nope, I don't live here. :) I've been spending very little time here, actually - life gets in the way.

[gristy]

4. link please?

Please post links to examples of said criticisms and said responses of said owners to said criticisms. :evilgrin:
I'm serious, though. We need examples...

[MrSoundAndVision]

8. I'm not a researcher....

nor am I claiming to be on the receiving end to may times of overly restrictive policy. I will say I benefitted from the glitch the DU had a while back that whiped out all records of moderation.

I'm just saying, I guess, that it's pathetic that a place which professes to be an political 'underground' should have a giant congratulatory picture of the richest Senator in the Senate on it's main pages as a symbol of solidarity with the mainstream Democratic establishment, an establishment by the way which let our government give the health insurance industry $14 billion dollars this year, yes I said GIVE. Where was John Kerry when that vote happened all? I really don't know, but I'm guessing absent.

This place has lost it's purpose.

[BillZBubb]

14. Perhaps it has lost its purpose for you

But that is just you. Obviously, you are hung up on the word "underground". But you seem to forget the more important qualifier: "Democratic".

Most of us want the Democrat to win this election. You seem to want to argue that our candidate isn't pure enough on this or that issue. Kerry is the nominee. He's our horse. Time to stop nit picking and get on the team.

The only issue right now is George W. Bush* must be ousted. He is a far greater threat to the things that Democrats (and all rational people) believe in than John Kerry.

It's really disappointing that you (apparently?) don't see this.

[MrSoundAndVision]

15. I've never believed in the ABB policy....

Because it won't work :) The media has turned this election into a dull hook shot. No discussion allowed. No pulling out of Iraq allowed. No dissension allowed. No war crimes allegations. No cancelling NAFTA and the WTO. No Universal Health Care. No ending the media monopolies. No ending the fear of the ethnic population in this country. Just a dull, "George Bush, your days are numbered" to fake cheers and faked enthusiam.

That's where the underground should be, in THAT conversation.

[MrSoundAndVision]

16. Perhaps this discussion would be better placed elsewhere...

but we set to lose with John Kerry, who isn't actually our nominee yet. Democrats will win if they fight on the issues, not on this fictitious sentiment of Democrat unity. Without discussing the issues, people aren't going to be interested in this election enough to believe that their voices amount to anything. Unity in the Democratic party by professing the ABB policy doens't attract voters to John Kerry. It makes them feel like their vote is meaningless, which is exactly what the media and the Repulican elite want.

DK for USA.

[erpowers]

23. It's not pathetic

ABB is a good policy for this year. It means we will suck it up and vote for any democrat even if they are not a purest. My first choice was Howard Dean. I was and still am disappointed that Kerry voted for the war in Iraq; however, he seems to be the democratic candidate so I will support him.

Sometimes you can't get everything you want. Sometimes you have to take things one step at at time. We will be able to bring up the issues you want to talk about after we win the white house. Which would you prefer some form of democracy or none at all.

You complain about the mainstream dems giving 14 billion to the HII, but what were they supposed to do, they were outnumbered. They tried to filibuster, but that was not doing anything. Kerry was most likely campainging during the vote. Lets try to focus on the things the dems were able to accomplish like blocking some of Bush's far right wing judges. Also Kerry might not be the richest senator in the senate.

Why shouldn't the democrats come together now. What is making a fuss about the nominee going to do. Is it going to change things? No. So, what we need to do is come together and try to find ways to beat Bush. I do not think you have to worry about black voter turnout.

Finally, you might want to examine yourself also. You have a right to post anything you like, but you must remember that others have the same right to respond to your posts however they please. Please do not allow yourself to turn into a liberal George Bush. Don't begin to think whatever you say cannot or should not be challenged.

[depakid]

7. There's plenty of debate and criticism here...

what there isn't is a bunch of irrational right wingers spewing their garbage around. What there isn't is a lot of lying- people here get called on their bullshit. This is a very diverse community, as online forums go, encompassing people from all walks of life- though in one sense I think you're right, we are for the most part pretty mainstream. We've just been driven underground.

[BeFree]

9. Before this is locked...

I honestly don't see what you are complaining about. Yeah, divisive comments about JK are to be denied -- just as such attacks against fellow posters are -- but that doesn't mean constructive criticisms are banned. Nor are conversations about the direction of the party.

If you came here thinking you could shout "fire" in order to scare your way to the top, well, I see you've already learned you can not.

[MrSoundAndVision]

12. Actually I posted this thread in response to the locking of another thread

That thread was about the censor of criticism here at the DU. And it was locked. So I felt I should show the DU that some people here support criticism and indeed come here for the fight, not for back patting.

I do apologize to Skinner though. I am thoroughly impressed with his response, which I missed at the time, and I couldn't have advocated a better initial response.

[mike1963]

20. Um, having peeked at your profile, you do seem to be a bit of an

aberration, a Kucinich supporter from the hinterlands of KY. That does provide some clues as to why you are apparently nursing some bitterness.
You may or may not believe what I will tell you; that is your prerogative. A very large number of DUers are very closely aligned with Dennis' positions. An equally significant number (myself included) continue to embrace his goals but have moved into the arena of reality; that DK would have probably less success at defeating W as Dukakis had a few elections ago.

It's not very smart to turn down half a loaf, pissing and moaning you can't have a full one when you're starving. We're left with what we're left with - that is the actual fact. Kerry wasn't my first choice but by any measure, he's a thousand times better than the alternative.

Very few here will flame you for any honest opinion presented with a modicum of rationality. There are...what? 40000 of us now?...something around that number - equivalent to a fair-sized city. Think diversity and be persuasive, not insolent.
;-)

[wyldwolf]

17. oh god...

:nopity:

[Ksec]

18. I agree somewhat but find the posters to be the ones who pigeonhole

DU. If you suggest anything a bit right of far left the nutjobs come out of the woodwork and then they ignore you the rest of the time . Its childish. But hey thats just MO. Not saying this happened to me but I see it all the time

[wyldwolf]

21. Hey, look, let's just be honest, OK?

From the "About Democratic Underground" page:

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas.

Translation: It was founded to protest Al Gore (a moderate democrat) getting robbed of the presidency. "Underground" could just as easily mean "Democrats have to go underground now that the fascists are running things."

Trying to somehow attribute "undeground" to those further left is the work of active imaginations.

And please don't preach about how DU was once this and once that. I've been here since almost the beginning (Spring 2001) and there have ALWAYS been many moderate Clinton-type democrats here.

[Ksec]

22. Whatever you say. Im just tellin you an opinion.

Sounds like you differ and thats all good. Thats what were about here, freedom and progressive thought

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. I came looking to hook up with progressive dems

in order to help oust the $hrub.