Gender roles: Are women more genetically suited to scrub the toilet?

[prolesunited]

I have a feeling that this thread should be particularly contentious given that I am employing some broad generalities in framing this discussion. Let's start off with the understanding that I am painting the sexes with a broad brush and that we all can point to many exceptions. I realize that there are many pitfalls in this line of reasoning.

In fact, given that we have many progressive-thinking people here, I would expect the division of labor and power within many family units here to be more balanced than the general population.

Here's a very interesting and thought-provoking article on the subject.
What went wrong? Feminism and freedom from the prison of gender roles.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m2096/1_53/102979434/p1/article.jhtml

Her contention is that feminism has failed in some regards because of its zeal to embrace "masculine" ideals, such as the assertion of power building consensus.

Here's some interesting excerpts from the essay:

The problems with the traditional female gender role are not the tasks assigned to it, which must be done, or the psychological traits associated with it, which are emotionally healthy, but the rigid way in which these tasks and traits were assigned to women alone, at the same time as women were confined only to those tasks and traits.

Men have relatively few role models of men who are both gentle and competent, not because such men do not exist but because they are not idealized in our speedy, competitive, hyper-masculine culture--a culture that focuses upon and instead idealizes the most problematic aspects of the male gender role. Why not have men like the Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King, or Gandhi as male culture heroes and icons of highly accomplished masculinity, rather than athletes, lawyers, businessmen and generals?

One of the greatest problems in proceeding further in dealing with these issues is that critiquing cultural ideals of masculinity or the stereotypical male gender role is culturally unacceptable. The excesses of gender feminists, with their notions of female superiority, have contributed to this situation, but men have also become quite defensive about feminism's legitimate complaints concerning male gender privilege. In such an environment, discussions about what's wrong ethically and psychologically with the stereotypical behaviors of those who take on the male gender role, whether they are men or women, are likely to be evaluated as "men-bashing" or as blaming men for everything that's wrong with human civilization.


In more practical terms, I thought we could discuss the division of labor within the household. When the issue of pay equity comes up, the explanation offered most often for the disparity is that women have dropped out of the work force to take care of their families. The question I would like to pose today is WHY?

I know there is a growing number of stay-at-home dads (I think we have a few here, in fact.), but still the most excepted practice is for the women to drop out of the workforce. Do women possess certain genetic traits that make here more suited to these tasks? Is it her "nature" to be more well-equipped for running the household or is it a matter of socialization? Can men successfully run the household and will there come a day that there will be greater acceptance of the concept of the female breadwinner?

The next question is why do many tasks related to maintaining the household and caring for children still fall to women, even if they are working outside of the home? As you recall, this phenomenon was documented in In this landmark study, "The Second Shift."

Ssociologist Arlie Hochschild takes us into the homes of two-career parents to observe what really goes on at the end of the "work day." Overwhelmingly, she discovers, it's the working mother who takes on the second shift.

Hochschild finds that men share housework equally with their wives in only twenty percent of dual-career families. While many women accept this inequity in order to keep peace, they tend to suffer from chronic exhaustion, low sex drive, and more frequent illness as a result. The ultimate cost is the forfeited health and happiness of both partners, and often the survival of the marriage itself.

With a new afterword by the author, this groundbreaking study is as relevant today as when it was first published.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380711575/102-7611524-3...

Often you will hear women discuss the struggles of combining work and family. How often do is a man asked how he manages to "do it all"?

Lots of places where this discussion could go, but let's try to keep it focused today. :-) You can always start a new thread to deal with an important offshoot of this discussion.

Some starting points:
How has feminism changed gender roles?
What are the positives and negatives in this shift?
Do you ever see a day when societal constraints will allow both women and men can pursue their natural inclinations? Will men be accepted in the role of caregiver?
What is the ideal division of labor within the household?
Describe some of your experiences with gender roles? How have they differed from your parents?


Just so that I'm accused of not taking a "fair and balanced" approach, here is an opposing viewpoint.
http://www.feminismiswrong.com/whatswrong.htm

[Lefta Dissenter]

1. All I know is that

Men are genetically predisposed to making more of a MESS on (and around) the toilet!

[NewJeffCT]

2. not my experience

I used to work in a restaurant and the number of complaints about the woman's restroom, despite much more frequent cleaning, far outstripped the rare complaint about the men's room.

PS, I do 90% of the cleaning around my house, not my wife.

[prolesunited]

7. Umm...

The subject heading was designed to grab attention. This really is NOT about scrubbing toilets or who makes a bigger mess in the bathroom. :-)

Like I said, I realize I would find many exceptions to these generalizations, especially here. I would like to know more about the division of labor in your household.

How did you end up doing 90% of the cleaning? What are your wife's contributions? How did you arrive at this decision? Do you ever feel resentful?

[zanana]

25. We let it happen.

I hate to say it, but it's true. Women go along with traditional gender roles for the love and approval of the men in their lives (and their mothers). I think that young women are eager to take up the role of wife and mother, thinking that "family values" will give them happiness and contentment. (Little do they know that "family values" just gives them more grunt work)!
I have been fighting to "share" housework with my husband for as long as I've been married. (24 yrs.) Yes, I resent the hell out of it, and there are still fights about it. But it's a hard argument to win when my husband sees that 90% of his brethren treat their wives like servants. Sorry about the rant, but I'll never stop ranting.

[fob]

48. I think that just shows the complaint versus the level of filth

is greater with females than with males. I've used some pretty nasty restrooms, while the DW tends to "hold it" in what I consider an acceptible situation. Of course I don't have to sit down everytime, so there may be some biological bias towards my lower complaint for higher filth response(or non-response, as it were)

[JVS]

60. My mother has a theory on this

Men's bathrooms get dirty on a more linear scale. With each user there are a few drops that don't make their mark. But the bathroom being dirty doesn't feed upon itself.

Women's bathrooms on the other hand are good for a while, but then when it gets dirty some of the users are unwilling to sit on the toilet seat beacause they are repulsed by the toilet. This is where bathroom filthyness takes off.

[goddess40]

8. Here, Here! Men should be the one's to clean the bathroom

My husband tried to say that he does - I think he's been listening to the right too long. (If you lie about it often enough it makes it true)
Sorry guys but if you stand-up you splash all over the place and you shouldn't expect anyone else to clean it up for you.

I volunteer a lot at my son's elementary school and time after time when the youngest kid hits kindergarten the dad insist that their wives 'get a job'. The women get the job only to find out they now have two full time jobs because their hubbies didn't pick up the slack. When I tell them to stand up for themselves they hem and haw because they don't want to cause trouble. In the mean time their getting worn out and too often hubby is using his free time to find a replacement. (His free time comes from the time he used to spend talking to his wife when he got home from work because she is now doing the house work she couldn't do while she was at work or she might be going out the door to her job) Of course it doesn't ALWAYS happen but does happen.

[Bunny]

20. And all that extra pressure leads to a decreased libido

in the woman. Then the husband gets pissed because the wife is too tired to put on the teddy and have wild sex, and he's angry at her, and she feels guilty because she can't "do it all", her resentment towards him builds, which makes her even LESS likely to want sex, the tension grows, and pretty soon it's a bad situation.

Do I know whereof I speak? Yes sir I do!

[Skittles]

29. I don't like it when men say they "help out around the house"

as if it wasn't their f***ing house.

[NicoleM]

30. and dads "babysit"

Around here, people ask if dad is home "babysitting" if a mother is out somewhere without her husband and kids. That chaps my ass. You can't babysit your own damn kids!

[goddess40]

81. How about when they babysit - with their own kids

Sorry I couldn't resist adding that, it's one of my biggest pet peeves.

[Desertrose]

127. yeah...that one always got me too

like it is this big special favor they are doing...
"They are YOUR kids too..."

Now years later, my ex wonders why the kids don't talk to him & aren't close....
DUH! :eyes:

Peace
DR

[kimchi]

38. Right on, Goddess!

My husband seemed very egalitarian when I married him. I didn't really notice until I had to quit my job to take care of his mother that he expected me to take care of the house, his mother, the yard, the cooking, the shopping, etc.

If you've never taken care of an 88 year old infirm lady or a baby, let me tell you; both are full time jobs.

We've had quite a few fights about it; which is probably quite normal. We've come to an agreement; when I'm working at night, after my 8 hours of housewifery--he should be working too. I cook; he does the dishes. He picks up; then I vaccuum. It is a constant struggle and compromise.

Here is one man's take; and I think it is widespread. HE makes money so he should get to rest in the evenings. I told him that would be fine if he paid me to babysit and teach, cook, clean, do laundry, and do the yardwork. Of course, then he'd be working for pennies. It didn't shut him up; but it made him think.

It is funny that one reason he says he married me is because I'm independent and speak out for the underdog...doncha just love irony?

[veganwitch]

3. proles, the first link isnt working for me.

im going to get the second shift from the library.

and this post got me thinking but rather than air my dirty laundry here, im going to talk to my partner about this.

[prolesunited]

10. Fixed the link

Thanks!

Not asking you to air your dirty laundry, but can you comment on this topic in general without revealing personal issues?

[veganwitch]

13. ok...

im working outside the home. partner is not, currently. there are also things i cant do now that im pregnant, namely cleaning the litter boxes which was something i did every morning and sometimes again at night.

and i come home and i just wonder what was done all day. but i dont want to nag either. plus ive been really depressed lately and i dont want to snap on things that might not be an issue.

but sometimes i feel that if i didnt ask for things to be done, they wouldnt where as i see a dirty litter box and know to clean it. i see dirty laundry and know to do it. i see the dishes and i know to put them in the dishwasher. not to say that im perfect and i can let things get messy if im busy but then i will do a top to bottom clean once i get the time.

i just wonder if these things occure to some guys.

[NicoleM]

17. People have different standards

and ideas of when something needs to be done. I only clean my house really good when I know we're going to have company. If DH is annoyed by my messes he either tells me or cleans them up. Dishes and laundry overflow until the point at which one or the other of us cares enough to do something about it, and then we do it. Luckily we have roughly the same mess threshold.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's just a "guy" thing. However, if you're working and he's not I don't think it's unreasonable to ask him to do things a little sooner than he would otherwise.

[Bill McBlueState]

64. things are much the same for me

And I'm a guy.

The house goes to hell when I'm not around. She spends much more time at home than I do, but I end up doing most of the cleaning.

But it's not as easy as just asking her to clean up more. It comes down to, is it easier for me to just do the dishes, or for me to spend half an hour arguing with her about it. I always have to ask myself "Is this really worth making an issue over?"

From time to time I'll be pleasantly surprised to come home and find the kitchen as clean as when I left in the morning, but it's rare.

As for the broader implications, I think the progressive idea that women shouldn't have to do all the housework can morph pretty easily into "As a woman, I shouldn't have to do anything I don't feel like doing." But someone still has to do the dishes and clean the cat box. In my house, it ends up being the guy almost all the time.

[NicoleM]

4. Musings:

Regarding this: When the issue of pay equity comes up, the most often explanation for the disparity is that women have dropped out of the work force to take care of their families. The question I would like to pose today is WHY?

As to why more women drop out to raise kids than men, my guess is that one reason is that women need to physically recuperate from childbirth, so they take some time off work to do that. And breastfeeding can be difficult to do while you're working full-time, so maybe you stay home a while longer because of that. Eventually, you might either decide you don't want to go back at all or you don't have a job to go back to anymore. Plus, fathers don't usually get a twelve-week paternity leave, so things are set up from the beginning to favor the mother staying home. Obviously that doesn't account for all of the disparity, but I think it's a factor.

As far as division of labor, that's tougher. I think some (and I do mean *some*) women bring it on themselves to a degree--her way of doing things is "right" and his way is "wrong," so she just takes over because it's easier than correcting him all the time. I have already told DH that I don't know any more about having a baby than he does, so if he expects me to automatically know how to take care of the kid he'd better think again. We don't have a problem with the division of labor now, but ask me again post-baby.

[Fleshdancer]

9. To add to your post....

Another reason for women to take time off to care for their family is that there isn't always a father who sticks around to help. With half of marriages ending in divorce, this leaves many women with the responsibility of everything in and out of the home. I think many of feminism's "masculine" traits are found in situations when a woman has to rather than wants to "do it all". My only major gripe with feminism is that it let men off the hook to some degree with their role and responsibility in the family.

And as division of labor goes, guilt is such a strong force for many women and many of us still today think housework is "women's work" so there are some who want to take on the responsibility out of guilt that they should be doing it. The only time I ever felt like housework was "genetic" was when I was 9 months pregnant and going through a very serious nesting phase...but that ended once the baby was born.

[Kanary]

16. When did feminism "let men off the hook"?

There are some major misconceptions about "feminism".

Since feminism hardly exists anymore, what you're getting is some watered-down version, if this is what you've picked up.

Feminism is all of us, so it's up to all of us to make it what we want. If we think men have been "let off the hook", then we have to express that to the men involved.

Kanary

[Bunny]

21. To continue your thought:

I think that in some, I repeat, SOME cases, the woman does bring it on herself. I'm referring to the idea that when the husbands do try to do housework or childcare, they are often scolded or otherwise informed that they did not do it "right".

I'm guessing that quite a few women feel that they have very little control over things that happen outside the home, e.g., on their crummy jobs, so they feel compelled to exert control where they DO have it, which is often in the areas of children and housework. The men can learn very quickly that it's better to let the woman do it.

Not flamebait, rather an observation based on my own personal behaviors, and those I've observed in others. Just my (self-styled) Junior Psychologist's opinion.

[NicoleM]

24. How many men

feel they have little control over their crummy jobs? I understand what you're saying, and you're probably right. But I think that if a woman takes over the housework because her partner doesn't do it right or just because she feels the need to control something, she pretty much gives up her right to complain that he never does anything.

These observations are based on the fact that I am a) a slob, b) very assertive, and c) married to a very nice guy who does at least his share of stuff around the house without us ever having discussed the division of labor.

[smirkymonkey]

44. I totally agree with your analysis...

that is, women have such little power in the outside world, that they need to exert control in their traditionally defined role.

I don't know if it is so much that women bring it on themselves, but that many of us (male & female) are still imprisoned by the values of a traditional society and therefore can be complicit (knowingly or unknowingly)in our own subjugation.

Things need to change in the outside world, but women also need to actively resist this kind of subtle oppression within themselves. Gloria Steinem wrote a book a number of years back called "Revolution From Within", which basically was about how we have internalized society's message about women and continue to act in accordance with that paradigm.

WE need to believe that we are more than helpmates, housekeepers, baby machines. Many times, I think, women think feminism is rejecting femininity and valuing the masculine. Rather I think we need to value our own womenhood as much as we do the masculine. I notice that the more secure I become in my personhood, the less crap I get from men.

[FizzFuzz]

63. I was just gonna say

something similar, smirky, but you beat me to it.

Interesting reinforcement of what you're saying is that sometimes when I'm down in the dumps, I think of things like wouldn't it be easier to just sink into the traditional female role.
Kind of similar to the feeling I get sometimes of getting so tired of feeling like the struggle against the RW lies that maybe it would be easier to just give up and give in.

ecchh.

[seabeyond]

5. in our home, husband is the martha stewart

hands down. he is also the one with the degrees and cna easily bring home way more money

i was old having kids and always figured i would be a working mom, 9 years later i would have it no other way, being a stay at home mom

i dont do toilets, little cleaning lots of picking up and some cooking, but the good tasting food is when hubby comes home and cook. absolutely isnt a gender thing.

i have seen males that are more nurturing than females hands down. yet i think it does tend to go to female, in nurturing, gathers, communicators. can break it down to the first 6, 7 years the mothers influence and then years after that fathers step in, this is with boys. works the otehr ways with girls. fathers have greatest impact on daughters the first 6, 7 years

so much of it has to do with how society has conditioned our girls and boys, especially the boys in their roles as fathers and nurtures, yet i ma seeing generations of evolution there

just some thoughts and a lot more. a favorite subject

[radwriter0555]

6. Women scrub the toilet because men can't handle the task, something we

come across quite often actually.

Haven't found a man yet who's capable of rendering a commode adequately clean -- much less without being proud of how clean he's rendered that commode, like he should get a medal.

Women simply do the task at hand without the need for reward or compliment.

Feminism is a cop out for men. It enables them to be even less than they already are by insisting that women are demanding the roles that we already have taken on by default. Men are just blaming us for their inadequacies, and, most of the time, we just let them.

[BiggJawn]

12. Oh, baloney. Come to my apartment.

I've lived there almost 5 years, you don't need a haz-mat suit to approach my toilet.

Who am I gonna go to for "props" for cleaning the dunny? My FISH???

How about a thread like "Why are Women gentically incapable of changing a flat tyre?".

And people say men are immature......:mad:

[prolesunited]

15. Again, this has nothing to do with scrubbing toilets

It is about gender roles. And FWIW, I never said men were "genetically incapable." It states are women more genetically capable and simply is referring to traditional roles.

How am I being immature? Don't twist my words and this is certainly not intended to be a man bashing thread as you seem to be interpreting it to be. If you are upset that women have not mastered more traditional male tasks and men are being asked to take on more, feel free to discuss it.

FYI, I have and can change my own tire. I will admit, though, sometimes muscle strength makes it difficult to loosen the lug nuts.

[Kanary]

18. Muscle strength doesn't actually have much to do with it

if the lug nuts were put on by an impact wrench.

:)

Proles, I can see you're trying to get some real dialogue going here, but.... I've come to the conclusion that real dialogue isn't possible here on DU. For some reason, it's become a place of arguing, rather than trying to understand and discuss.

If you put it out there straightforward, your post sinks into oblivion. If you put an attention-grabbing headline, then it deteriorates into squabbling. Makes me sad.... I miss really good discussions.

Thanks for trying... what you are putting out there deserves some good input.

Kanary

[BiggJawn]

39. You're not the one being immature.

OK, I'll call it like I see it.
Radwriter's comment about men being incapable of cleaning toilets is what set me off. I think it was sexist, but since she's not a man, she's getting a pass on it.
And you took my retort to her as being directed at you.
Such is not the case.

And I find it difficult to loosen air-wrench tightened lugs, too.

I've been alone long enough (and spent a good part of that time being a single parent) to acknowledge that "gender roles" are an outmoded notion. I can cook, sew, run a floorsweeper, CLEAN A TOILET, and do "manly shit" like spin wrenchs and swing a hammer, too.

That's it in a nutshell. Gender Roles are dinosaurs. But it seems that it's a strange dinosaur in that it's still alive, right?

[radwriter0555]

108. Is my position sexist if it's true?

Men have always been propped up as if they're heros for every little thing they do -- that women just do because it's part of life -- like they're gods if they're single dads... or they're heros if they manage to change a diaper.

I can't tell you the amount of sniggering I hear from new dads who pretend they think breast feeding is for the baby, but are really happy that it gets them out of midnight bottle duty.

Women are indeed expected to work, come home, maintain the house, care for the kids, and somehow, we're inadequate if we get tired or worn out, or need a break or ask for help.

I find that men marry in order to get a new mommy to take care of them. We women find far too often that having a man around is little more than having a large, hairy male child around... I love them to pieces but I don't want another kid, especially one that leaves hair around and thinks he's a hero when he does the dishes.

I find if I just don't expect much from a man, then I won't be disappointed. Works better that way.

[seabeyond]

111. i went from ( rambling. )

(from self to husband to children to all of us)



a single 32 year old woman, owner of the cutest little house, a dog and worked; did my thing. to married and baby all in a year. and i sat there in the what it was suppose to be and what it is,

hopefully that man stays only a year or two in the marriage in this stage, same with the single me. hopefully we can work thru those and become more. cause really let go of all those and there is so much more. ed and i cut each other slack. but really that needs to go both ways. i was not the one to do. it was ed giving it to me, that allowed me to recognize.

this did a couple things, it allowed us to be compassionate to one another. seeing each others weakness and strengths and loving both

the other allowed me to cut myself slack with a newborn.

one huge surprise was this wonderful mans lack of envolvement with the baby, not comfortable. mine issue was i was an afraid mother, not confident either. oh mother hood shit. i was such a mess. that whole experience threw me..........i admit. sleep deprived spit up, lucky for a shower thru the day.

for the first three months of mess dinners cleaning laundry anything went to the wayside. and the three of us just worked getting to know each other. and we had a lot of love.

by the second one a couple years later, .........a demanding from newborn child hardest darn thing and still is at 6 for all of us. threw our three worlds for a spin. so we deal with. and learning how to live with each other, still havent figured the youngest yet

it is all in the what are we in now,.

for me and the politcial.........what is happening with self is with family community political it all wraps so,........in total universal.

i for one say, we have all of spring, summer and up to fall. having little ones to do so much healing spring and summer are wonderful times. bush has so much in fact against him. he cannot make the claims. goes against reason. we can talk it clearly factually.

the 9/11 ads.....( all is a big ole one, connected in expierence)
bush said he would not use this time and trust me and work with me and that means keep mouth shut, support me, that is it. we had that a couple years, dean started yelling. thank you dean. (i was yelling really quietly)

he is using 9/11 as his political campaign. he broke his promise. well we get to say. cause he did. 9/11 victims have valid question in his participation in event and that one alone goes in both participation/non participation.

factually he has not done right with that event to ignoring and saying they need to be silent, take away their right to question .......then the financial, not supporting, fireman not supporting, military and police not supporting.

but the hypocrisy, gift and obvious with bush, they say they get this day cause it is their day too adn it is our giving love to you so we get to show how christian and good we are, then, they say, well this is all the realty adn cause they dare to say out loud, bushco goes to screw you guys. ok that would be cool if it was me, but we are talking the families of dead people and they know bush is lieing, well hey, we know bush is lying.

now they are out htere saying the victims, that the whole world was empathitic too,. are now being called whiners by these people. this is not a hard one to see.

to be able to in peace adn love and simpleness. to be able to just talk these things. not in anger, i am so tired of anger,.........no one can control any more, always a i ahve the right i cant help it. well i am not doing it.

it comes into my home, and into my children and it doesnt belong here.

so,....who wants to join me on the couch, with a joint, lollol. and just relax a little and look out at the world in all its business, and not be afraid,. get a little giggle of it know ing so much of it is clear as a bell. a little confidence in self.

mug of coffee up in cheers

also to me, there is so much, we have to start with what is up now before hitting all the others, one of the things i have learned in the person. shit comes, and fast the quicker recognized said out loud thrown back to universe, if you are good, not much gets by. then a stillness comes i swear and it is easier going out bring the past and futrure to present

the time shifting people are talking, bring universe to a slowness easier to deal with

could go to nesara peak oil mayan calander channels kucinnich or whatever........bah ha ha

such a piece of cake all you doubters.

and sometimes my lite is pretty darn bright, some would say arrogant stupid or just plain odd.

[FizzFuzz]

117. ad on A&E late night

for a supplement to enhance women's desire....the female counterpart to Viagra, but of course, no insurance coverage (scoffing laughter)

anyway, the one young mother in the ad talks about how she was having desire-problems becuase what with work, the kids, cleaning and cooking, she was too tired. The visuals accompanying this were quick shots of her in a suit at work, shopping, with the kids, cleaning up a dropped egg. At the mention of "I'm just too tired for intimacy", we see a shot of her hunky boy sitting on the bed in pajama pants, looking at us with woeful puppy-dog eyes.


Women are indeed expected to work, come home, maintain the house, care for the kids, and somehow, we're inadequate if we get tired or worn out, or need a break or ask for help.....yep just like you said!

how about, "Honey, you share the damn work around here because, remember: You can be replaced by a zucchini."

[seabeyond]

119. i told hubby when boys were little the greatest

aphrodisiac for all women is seeing him on the floor playing with the babies in love and giggle. told him another is make me feel sexy and sex is what i want. geez.........lol lol lol if that didnt make my life a lot easier. and ultimately his too

[FizzFuzz]

123. not all women...

sorry sea...I don't have that reaction. Kids have no place in my life, and that's exactly as I like it. I know plenty of other women who, like me, are also not maternally oriented.

Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that kids aren't all that for all women.

[seabeyond]

124. ah i know fizzfazz

there is no way i can talk for all women and not all women with kids.......was more a tease.

[Pithlet]

59. I agree.

That was a sexist statement. Some of the neatest bathrooms I've ever been in were single male friends of mine.

[radwriter0555]

106. I change tires, do oil changes, brake pads, etc. Changed out my bathroom

faucet yesterday and the kitchen faucet about a month ago. I know how to use teflon tape.

I've landscaped the entire yard; installed 1000 sf of sod all by myself, (including 15 rosebushes and 6 trees) dug the 10' x 5' x 2.5' pond, installed the lining, pump and laid the rockwork and concrete all by myself too.

Then I went and got a manicure cause it thrashed my hands!

Don't let these Annette Benning looks decieve you; I was a roadie for almost 15 years....

:D

[Nobody]

11. I think it has a lot to do with what society as a whole values

For centuries, what was considered valuable was what men did. Women were by and large excluded from it. The tasks assigned to women were not the ones immortalized in song and poetry.

In any hunter gatherer society you could name, the women brought in 80% of the food by gathering and the other 20% came from the men bringing back game animals.

The men had accolades showered upond them. Boys going hunting for the first time were feted. But what about the gatherers? There are no documented stories of contests between the women to see who could gather the most berries and nuts or the widest variety.

If anyone DOES have a link to information about female accomplishments for women's work, please post it here. I'd love to see it and be proven wrong.

It seems to me that no matter what society, whatever jobs and traits are ascribed to women are the ones that are afforded the least status, no matter how essential they are.

[outinforce]

34. You're Certainly Right

I know that in my own case, I do not at all value the job my own mother did in raising me. She was the one who taught me how to tie my shoe laces, and she was the one who always saw my little brothers and sisters and me off to school, after she had prepared breakfast for us. She was the one who tended to us when we got hurt, and she was the one who we all knew would be more sympathetic to us than Dad.

But value her? No way. After all, our society conditions us not to value the owrk women dod, right?

Dad, that was the parent I valued. He had all the status.

(/sarcasm)

[Nobody]

130. I'd have replied earlier but I was out of town, so here's my response

There are several examples of jobs society has need for, but these jobs have historically had NO prestige, and NO social respect, and VERY LITTLE or NO pay.

I'm talking about the 90% of the people who farmed in the middle ages. They were called serfs. Without them everyone would starve, but it was the knights and the other nobility who got all of the respect. Were there songs sung about the serfs? Are there records of farmers being awarded medals for innovations in agriculture and kingdom-wide honors for bumper crops? If there exist at all, you have to dig very very deep to find them.

The old platitude about the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world is tripe. No one is saying that mothers are unimportant, the point I was trying to make is that the jobs traditionally held by men got all of the status and all of the awards and all of the songs sung.

I'm really not surprised to see your sarcastic response. But look in any history book. Whose deeds are the ones most often talked about? You still have to go to the Guinness Book of World Records to find out about the woman who gave birth to 69 children.

[BiggJawn]

14. It's created a wall between the sexes.

It's gotten to the extreme that some men don't feel comfortable asking women that they may be in a relationship (I wanted to write "their women", but that's SEXIST) to do tasks that may be seen as demeaning or "traditional".
Or the women get resentful ("how come I'm the one who always does the cooking?" "Because your kitchen is your kingdom, and I'm an interloper") because they have to do things they think they shouldn't.

Like, how come I'm supposed to drop whatever I'm doing and "help" with the handyman shit? Don't I have enough of my own stuff to take care of? Vehicle to maintain, toilet of my own to clean?

And how come I feel like a HEEL for even THINKING that a little sex would be a fair trade for spending the whole weekend doing masonry and carpentry when I have a fish tank and bathroom of my own that aren't getting cleaned, and bicycle that ain't getting ridden and a gut that ain't getting any smaller?

[prolesunited]

19. I don't even know where to begin here

I want to tread lightly, though, because I've always considered you a friend and certainly don't want to damage that, but I can't keep silent here.

Of course "their women" is sexist. I'm not much for the PC brigade, but can't you see "their" implies ownership or possession. I'm a person, not a piece of property like a car or bike, so I would take offense at that.

I think you are bringing a lot of personal baggage to the table on this and it has clouded your thinking on the issue. If you have an issue with being the "handyman," isn't that issue with a particular person, not women in general.

My belief is that in a relationship, you work out a fair division and play to eachother's strengths. For example, man could be an excellent cook and the woman could be great with power tools. Then just divide the detestable chores, like scrubbing the toilet or cleaning the litter box.

And sex should be fair trade for labor?!?!? Is this what you really mean here? She somehow "owes" you sex for doing things? That's not a relationship, that's a business deal.

I really think you should rethink this relationship before it prevents you from having a healthy relationship with a woman in the future. It does not sound healthy in any way and all women are NOT like this.

[seabeyond]

23. he's my man

lol lol, doesnt have to be a big deal. i want to be his woman too. it is all about whether someone is allowing their power to be taken. and only we can give up our power. i feel the bottom line of any relationship issue is when another is in someway trying to take anothers power away from them

ed doesnt want mine, i dont want his after a decade clearly we say to each other, much easier for me to do me, and you to do you. trust in faith we can each do self and dont need the other to do us

saying, so much extra work trying to do another why bother

i also like the role assigned. i personally dont want to change a tire, never have. probably could but i like not. it also makes ed feel good for me to make him a sandwich, as he is about his day and gets hungry go for the sandwich sittin in his car, a thought to me and how much i love him, gives him a little warmth in the day.

he likes cooking a yummy meal and me going into orgasm over the flavor and big deal on the yummy of it.

none of this is hard, really i assure a decade of none of this hard

another, sex saturday morning to start out the weekend a big thumbs up for all, getting past the whole sex issue power struggle is the greatest too.

all of it is owning another power, whenever chosing that, into battle and struggle

[BiggJawn]

33. No,no,no,no,no,,,,,

Shit, 2 threads in 2 days where I didn't make myself clear...

Funny how you NEVER hear a woman getting HER chops busted for saying something like "My Man", but let a man say......

My whole point is that since we have seperate domiciles, we BOTH have "detestable chores" to do.

And good gawd, "sex for payment"???? Guess I did step in it with that one, didn't I? No, I was not implying that she "owes" me sex. just that-and I'm gonna step in it again here-Oh, never mind...Really, I DON'T really think that way...

And you are spot-on, I did bring a lot of baggage to this discussion, with the exception of my reply to the "Women scrub the toilet because men can't handle the task..." comment.

Baggage or not, I'll match my johnny-mop with the best of them.

But then it's OK to laugh at male Buffoons as depicted on Tee-Vee. Serves 'em right, payback for millenium of Patriarchy, after all.

[prolesunited]

45. Don't know about other women

but the phrase "my man" would never come out of my mouth.

When I bottom-lined that statement, it certainly amounted to your belief that you should be rewarded with sex. I certainly hope you don't think that way.

I know lots of men who keep house better than me, but then again, that's certainly not saying much because I suck at it. ;-)

And where did that last statement come from? I don't think it's appropriate to perpetuate male stereotypes any more than it's appropriate to advance female stereotypes.

I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want to "pay back" men for patriarchy, I don't see them as my enemy, I certainly don't dislike them in general. I don't feel that we are equal in the sense that we are the same, but that we all have unique qualities. I want a seat at the table when decisions are being made, to be respected as an equal and ideally, walk by their side through life — not in front and certainly not behind.

I really don't think this is too much to ask for and I think both men and women will benefit from this evolutionary process in their thinking and their behavior.

What I sense from your posts is an internal conflict between your true perceptions and an underlying hostility toward women and your effort to be enlightened and sensitive.

[seabeyond]

54. i think

you are just a cool dude and funny too and it is all ok. lol lol

i know both have their part. i know at first with ed and i oh the poor guy. didnt know what to say, what would get him in trouble and not. i remember one day seeing the confusion coming from him and the deer in head lights and went into such a laughter and ah it is ok baby. shouldnt be this hard for you and i know my part. it was also a time when i had been with him long enough to be comfortable and secure in his love for me

ya

i think we just need to all cut each other a break.

my middle brother kicks tush on cleaning house like no girl i know

my oldest brother is more a mom than i would ever want to be

it is all good

[FizzFuzz]

69. off on a slightly different track

this always bugs me :
But then it's OK to laugh at male Buffoons as depicted on Tee-Vee. Serves 'em right, payback for millenium of Patriarchy, after all.

What bugs me is that men can be portrayed as buffoons, but loveable, comedic buffoons. Dorky looking is OK too, for men.

Compare that to women, who almost never get to play that role. I love to clown around and do the "Jim Carrey" brand of humor, whith nutty facial distortion and everything, so I guess I'm sensitive to the fact that women are generally limited; their role in comedy is mostly the disapproving straight-laced (yet sexy!) foil for the man, who is naturally the center of attention. Seems like Lucille Ball was the only female comedian who really did physical comedy.

[pmbryant]

35. This just emphasize how personal this issue is

I have a feeling most people's feelings on this issue have little to do with anything about men's and women's roles in general, but with the particular roles expected in their household.

A lot of the resentment between the sexes on this matter may well be the result of misdirected personal resentment between individuals.

:shrug:

--Peter

[BiggJawn]

43. That's very true.

Proles opened my eyes to that when she opined that I was bringing "baggage" to the discussion.

Shouldn't let relationship issues cloud the discussion.

[pmbryant]

46. A lot of people here appear to be doing the same thing

So you're not alone. :-)

Peter

[eyesroll]

22. I'm actually writing an article about gender and restrooms

I edit a trade publication serving the cleaning industry. (To answer your headline question: No. Although I'm better at it than Whitacre D_WI. Could be because I'm -- not kidding -- a Janitor University graduate.)

Women's restrooms are actually messier in public places because they are more crowded. (Obviously, there are exceptions -- if there even is a public women's restroom, rather than just the strippers' dressing-room toilet, in a "gentleman's club," it's going to be pretty pristine.)

Reasons?
1. Women actually take twice as long as men to use the toilet. This does NOT include grooming functions, but does include removal of clothing, sitting vs. standing, menstruation-related functions, etc.
2. Women are still more likely to take their children into the restroom than men. It's only recently that men's rooms have had changing stations, but even now, you're more likely to find a 7-year-old boy in the women's room than a 7-year-old
3. A more crowded restroom means less opportunity for interim cleaning. A porter can't get in there to spot clean if every fixture's constantly in use; shutting it down to clean it would cause a big hardship.
4. There generally are fewer total fixtures for women -- the women's restroom here at work has four stalls; the men's has three stalls and two urinals. Urinals take up less space than stalls. Until recently, stadiums were built with far more men's fixtures than womens, because "women don't go to football games." (Try telling that to anyone waiting in line during halftime.)

"Potty parity" would suggest that, because of the crowds and the greater time performing functions, women have more fixtures than men -- and some laws are doing just that -- some call for a 3:2 ratio; some 2:1; and some state that there just be twice as many restrooms for women than the current code for men states (i.e. if the current law says there must be 10 fixtures in each restroom, the women's must have 20, and the men's can have whatever, over 10). This, in theory, would equalize waiting time.

I know that wasn't your question, but I'm finding it interesting. (Your recent threads have been really thought-provoking, Proles!)

[seabeyond]

26. totally disagree.

consensus says mens room by far is the worst. men buck up and share. all mens room, cause i have had to wait cause women use more and are in longer and when i gotta go not opposed to going in the mens, ..............have always been horrible. and husband has assured mens are by far worse cause it doesnt bother them like women, and now my son who for years have gone with me into womens is now using mens consistantly tell me how bad the mens restrooms is horrible.

i dont buy it, grinnin

[private_ryan]

41. you forgot the fact that women usually go in groups to the bathroom

the last thing guys want to do is talk to each other in there.

[noiretextatique]

79. i never go to the bathroom in a group

i'm a woman :shrug:

[private_ryan]

88. wow, we found one

did I say all the women, all the time? They are always exceptions to the rule. If you want to deny it, do a poll of 1000 women and 1000 men and then we're talking. Of course you can just go out and observe it.

By the way, we can still blame men or the society fo this so don't worry.

[prolesunited]

89. Project much?

Or are you too busy blaming women for all the ills of society? :hi:

[cally]

84. I'm fascinated by your information

Did you look into bathrooms at theaters? When I see a play, the women's bathroom always have VERY long lines while the men's bathroom does not. Usually the bathroom is in the basement and there is only one bathroom. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[msmcghee]

27. Much of male behavior, in boys and men . . .

. . results from a strong desire to conform to an idealized male role.

Most males underestimate the strength of this need. It stems from a great fear that we develop at an early age that we will be seen as sissies by other males. By the time we become adolescents we have fully integrated this need into our personalities. Many supposedly male traits that we are sure are instinctive, are actually the result of that learning process. These include aggression, insensitivity to others' pain, attraction to violent sports, our need not to show our (esp. softer) emotions, lack of interest in the home interior, etc.

In otherwords, (in our culture especially) males have grown up and live in a paranoid femaphobic world. Fortunately, many liberal/progressive males have discovered that there are no locks on the doors to this prison.

The greatest crime in life is pretending to be the person that others expect you to be rather than the person you actually are. You deprive yourself and all who you love of your essence. I speak from many years of experience.

[seabeyond]

28. oh you are so right on

son and i talking, about he needs to talk to dad and express what he feels. but he cant talk to him like me, is hard. so i tell him, help dad out. dad was raised in a time of stuffing feelings. son says but how can you do, it is wrong. of course it is, and dad knows this, why he allows and encourages you to express and how patient we can be with dad and how far he has come cause i am empathic with dad on this.

dad allows edmund to find and be himself always encourage. and for son to realize this at such a young age a nifty thing.

i am so with what you say

another i have not recognize, at a young age the girls have the power. already they start the girl/boy battle and girls win in just about all the catagories, and then the boys dont understand why they are preached be fair to girls, cause in their eyes, girls are abusing their power. tis true, hadnt realized

yet we are always discussing and allowing these realizations. jsut saying them out loud and acknowledging give so much to boys

[YNGW]

31. Nice Pun

>I have a feeling that this thread should be particularly contentious given that I am employing some broad generalities...

Are women more genetically suited to scrub the toilet....BROAD generalities....-- Funny! I like it!

:)

[undergroundpanther]

37. Entitlement

I wonder how much of the gender disparity has to do with inadvertently taught entitlement that having two separate gender roles creates?
Boys,because their mothers tend to coddle them at young ages and society always expresses more joy on the arrival of boy babies..Boys growing up see the women of the house cooking meals,cleaning up,ironing shirts for work,in general serving men, at parties,being hostess..it teaches boys an expectation that women are their servants. women cook clean etc.Because daddy sits and watches football as mommy runs around feeding them, Have men internalized this expectation of being served from mom doing her duty in a binary gender expectation she learned from the females in her house? How many mommas boys out there? Girls playing with baby dolls maybe shows boys girls exist to take care of them and their offspring and they've internalized this awful lie just as much as girls have..The Gender role crap starts early on kids when they are not able to process what this means.Girls when they are born are put in pink.Boys in blue.Parents perpetuate the lies because when their kids do not "man up" a or wear the clothes parents force them to wear,the boys are scapegoated,likewise girls who refuse to wear dresses parents force upon them get pressured to act feminine,lower their eyes around men,etc..

Culturally it's expected that a man shouldn't express emotions freely but violence is OK as an outlet.In Iran men are expected to be sensitive and women point a to point b.Doesn't matter the sensitivity issue if a man thinks he's entitled to be better than women and entitled to tell women to tend to him. Some Men get the idea they are entitled to label women who get hot under the collar or who disagree with him hysterical to shut down or deligitamize her emotions.Fathers teach this to kids by the way they treat their wives in arguments.
Culturally men are taught to dominate,women taught to submit.
Feminism tries to teach women to not submit and men who think they are entitled to dominate and be tended to, hate feminism because feminism says NO to them. Some men do not like to be told no.The men who can't deal with no from a female the worst are rapists..Rape isn't about sex it's about power. Our culture habitually gives more power to men.

Men are taught to think they are entitled to dominate women even if they clean the house or don't clean it.Even the clothes girls and women wear echo submission and sexual availability even when they are not asking for sex.
Our culture is sick,partly because it has an assumption of hierarchy.Until this hierarchy game people play is undone to the core,and people get over themselves and turn to each other as different AND equal,and instead feel entitled to self hood as they define it for themselves,without parental or cultural conditioning,to tell them who they should be the mind games that hurt children of all genders(there are more than two) will go on.
Bottom line is,NO ONE is entitled to tell another person who they are,how they should present themselves or define their self for them.
There is a kind of authoritarian personality in some people that cannot stand differences and to hear no or I disagree.An authoritarian is a person that bullies conformity out of others.This authoritarian game needs to stop and it begins in the home where entitlements get acted out unconsciously everyday so that kids grow up to repeat the lies our hierarchical culture tells us about who we are..

[YNGW]

40. Wow

All that from noting a pun. I'm impressed.

[Blue-Jay]

47. That *was* impressive. Now go take out the trash.

It's your job.

[YNGW]

49. No kidding.

Actually, I have the kids take out the trash and other odd-jobs. I mow the lawn and take care of the yard. My wife does the housework. What do you do?

[Blue-Jay]

52. I live by myself, so I do everything.

Even when I was living with my former fiance, I did the toilets, laundry, yardwork, dishes, and garbage. It was a fair trade to avoid dusting and laundry.

[Isome]

83. The lawn and the yard don't need tending everyday.

Making meals, cleaning the kitchen, doing dishes, cleaning the bathrooms, making beds, picking up items left on the stairs, the counter, the table, the couch, etc. ... those things are done daily.

Chores that are done once or twice a week (tops) versus those that have to be done everyday...

[YNGW]

90. Which has nothing to do with anything.

It's how we've agreed to divide up the work. Her job is the housework. She prefers to do it. I do the yardwork. I'm also the sole breadwinner. It works for us. That's all that matters. Everything else is moot. Capeche?

[private_ryan]

100. too bad you agreed and you're both happy

Go home and change it. The DU Council on Appropiate Behaviour has decided it's sexist.

[FizzFuzz]

120. what works for people

is what's important.

Its also important ot talk about the arrangement from time to time, since things do change.

Also, it IS true that the daily household tasks are necessary on a more frequent basis, and there is no "vacation leave" from it. But in a relationship where the partners can talk openly, that can be worked out, so that the housework person can get a break regularly too.

[iverglas]

51. perhaps you have noticed

... how sometimes, when people wish and intend to reply to the lead post in a thread which they are "viewing all" of, they instead click on the "reply" link below the last post, and their message appears as a reply to that post instead of as a new reply to the lead post.

Do you think that this might be what happened in this case?

edit ... ah, but perhaps you were being facetious, and it was I who had missed something ...

.

[YNGW]

61. That was my first notion.

But my post was #31, and two people had posted below me (#32 & #36) when undergroundpanther posted #37. So since I wasn't sure, I thought I'd just make a semi-funny comment. Oh well, no harm no foul.

[pmbryant]

32. A very personal issue for most people, I think

In a given household, if one person is being asked to do more than their share of the work than the other, then it is up to those two people to work things out in an amicable way. Many, many people have been successful at this, so it can be done. Although it is difficult, definitely, in an economy in which it generally requires two wage earners to provide the expected standard of living.

When the issue of pay equity comes up, the explanation offered most often for the disparity is that women have dropped out of the work force to take care of their families. The question I would like to pose today is WHY?

Well, as you note, women are not paid on an equal scale with men, so economically, it makes more sense in more cases for the woman to give up her job than the man. Until pay equity is achieved, this tendency will remain, even without any pre-conceived notions of what role is appropriate for which gender.

The vast majority of men, though, it is true, are extremely uncomfortable with the thought of not earning money to provide for their family. This is pure socialization, however, and so is not inevitable. In this way, though, men are more prisoners of societally-expected gender roles these days than women. But there is no literal 'prison', and so men are quite free to reject these expectations, in consultation with their partners, and more and more are doing so, and this is an excellent trend. Albeit one that has a long way to go yet.

(The first article you linked was trying to make a point much like this, I think, though I just skimmed it.)

Do you ever see a day when societal constraints will allow both women and men can pursue their natural inclinations? Will men be accepted in the role of caregiver?

Yes and yes and I don't think this day is very far off. The trends are all in the right direction.

What is the ideal division of labor within the household?

Whatever the members of the household decide it is. There is no single ideal given the huge variety of circumstances we all face.

Peter

[Jim__]

36. I would say , "Yes!"

Although not to your specific question in today's society.

But, I believe that in most human societies, women assumed the "stay at home" role, and men assumed the "go out and get the food role." (I don't claim any expertise here - this is based on very general reading - and I am willing to learn if my understanding is incorrect).I think there are genetic reasons for this. Women get pregnant and so are "weakened" for a time, newborns need their mother near so they can nurse, men tend to be bigger and stronger,and so make the better hunters and warriors.

In today's society, strength is no longer a big issue, and women can work through most of their pregnancy, and also, work and still nurse their child. So, today, the reasons that may have led to the division of labor no longer apply. But, now we are culturally attuned to those roles and it will take some time to get past them.

[Blue-Jay]

42. On the average, women are shorter, therefore more suited to

toilet-scrubbing physically. :D

/scrubs own toilet daily.

[leesa]

50. It's that lower center of gravity...or maybe the extra orafice to store

the scrub brush.

[Cleita]

53. A great book on the history of gender roles, if you can find it

in your library (it's out of print I believe) is "Women's Work, The First Twenty Thousand Years" by Elizabeth Wayland Barber. Her thesis is that women's work evolved around the need of women to do things that enabled them to look after small children at the same time.

While the men became the hunters and warriors because having women with small children in the ranks would have been a hindrance, the women stayed back gathering food, which was less dangerous than hunting and working the skins for clothing and probably tidying up the hut. It was a woman who no doubt invented horticulture and cloth making.

This, not scrubbing toilets, became women's work. Weaving and the making of cloth and clothing became what women did not only for their families but it became a valuable trade item along with precious metals. It was a money making enterprise that even queens worked at. Literature speaks of Queen Penelope weaving and unweaving the tapestry hoping for Odysseus's return from Troy.

I don't know when the day happened that it was expected that women do the scut work usually left to slaves of either gender, but it happened sometimes back in the mists of unwritten history.

[noiretextatique]

55. an attempt to address some of your questions

How has feminism changed gender roles?

i think feminism has given both sexes more options. i do see that gendor roles are less rigid in some ways. for example, when i was in elemetary school, girls COULD NOT wear pants to school...it was like some high crime :7 and girls COULD NOT learn to play certain instruments, like the saxophone, because it was thought we were to delicate.
on the other hand, as the article you cited mentions, it seems that in the home, gender roles have changed very little...with women still being responsible for the bulk of the work.
i notice this with all the married women i know, including my sister who makes 6 figures and has a very demanding career.
unfortunately, she did everything for her two sons, and never taught them to take care of themselves. fortuntely, my nephews have been forced to learn to cook, shop, do laundry and clean while away at college.
i was really surprised that my ultra-independent sister not only did the lion's share of the housework, but she also didn't teach her boys the basics of self-care.

What are the positives and negatives in this shift?
+ less rigidity in terms of gender role expectations, and i think less punishment for non-conformity to roles.
- hysterical backlash...not enough progress

Do you ever see a day when societal constraints will allow both women and men can pursue their natural inclinations? Will men be accepted in the role of caregiver?

yes...i do see this day coming. it's progress and evolution, which means it has to come. i think men are being accepted in the role of cargiver.

What is the ideal division of labor within the household?
50/50

Describe some of your experiences with gender roles? How have they differed from your parents?

i rebelled against gender-specific roles as a young woman. i refused to learn to sew and type, for example, because i saw that as "woman's work." wish i had learned now, of course :7
i also took up playing the drums in high school, and at the time in the mid 1970's, some people has a real problem with that.
i refused to dress in the specified gender-appropriate manner of the time also...levis and tee shirts were my standard uniform.
my father was a sexist tyrant who dominated and controlled my mother, so i vowed NEVER to marry or have children when i was about 12...which horrified the adult women in my life. "oh honey, when you grow up, you'll want a husband and children of your own," they all told me. i kept telling them i wanted neither...i think they understand that now that i'm 45, and have neither by choice :7
and of course, i am a lesbian. and a funny thing about that...i the most "feminine" women in my immediate and extended family. my two sisters and several of my female cousins are domineering, controlling, aggressive...very much of the "female macho" thing going on. interestingly enough, the "female macho" types are also embraced more tradtional female roles...whereas me and a few other women in the family who are less aggressive, domineering, controlling, more nuturting, et al...we are the ones who broke all the gender role rules.
i did some research on gender roles for a class in college...it's always been a fascinating subject to me.

[Vladimir]

56. Focusing on pay equality

In more practical terms, I thought we could discuss the division of labor within the household. When the issue of pay equity comes up, the explanation offered most often for the disparity is that women have dropped out of the work force to take care of their families. The question I would like to pose today is WHY?

I think the explanation confuses the issue. Any two people doing the same job should be paid the same wage - that's pay equity. There is however a serious problem of women in general having less equity (as in assets - liabilities) than men. And this does tie in to women dropping out to look after kids. So... I am going to tread very carefully here, because what I am about to propose can very easily be misinterpreted.

One of the ways to solve this would be to pay women and men who stay at home to look after kids a living/minimum wage. This would remove the unbalanced nature of relationships where one person is the main wage earner, and the other looks after the kids. It is also fair, because the person looking after the child is doing work that a paid professional would otherwise have to do. One of the main objections to it has always been that it would pressure women to stay at home and not have careers. Indeed there was a campaign to implement this in Britain in the 70s which was not sucessful. However, I have always felt that if combined with other forms of equality reform to encourage women to pursue careers, the negative connotations would not arise. And it would recognise the work done by those who choose to stay at home and look after children, while helping to resolve the imbalance in equity which is plainly there.

V

[maxanne]

57. interesting discussion

and not much flaming - I'm impressed - that speaks well of all the participants. Prolesunited - you've started some thought provoking threads of late. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately in a patriarchal society, only men's work has value. Housework and child rearing are still considered "women's work" and if anyone can think of a job that is considered "women's work" that has high status - I'd love to hear about it.

[Rich Hunt]

58. wow

A whole thread about feminism and sex roles - with civil discussion and not a suspicious low-post-count character in sight.

:toast:

Oh, and that second link was put out by something called the "Wholesome family society", which also has a problem with "homesexual (sic) rights". :eyes:

[prolesunited]

65. Oh, I threw that

"Feminism is Wrong" link in there as a joke. The whole site was repulsive.

[bobbieinok]

62. comments from experience as a woman over 60

We married in 65; I finished the year teaching, he was in grad school. It was only quite later that I realized I! had done all the female role things with no thought/no discussion. I wanted to be 'the wife' and 'take care' of my husband.

Later there were some real issues when he taught at the U and I was stay-at-home mom - altho we both had a Ph.D. We were part of the first woman's liberation group coming out of the 60s who thought that everything was possible. There had been a big upsurge in grad school degrees; many of us thought we'd teach a few years here, then a few there, (always at a more 'prestige' school) and then get tenure and stay.

At the beginning of the 70s there ceased to be new faculty jobs. Everyone was 'caught' where they went first. In our univ town there were a large number of women with advanced degrees who either did not work or were unemployed - lots of stress but also lots of fellow sufferers.

.....

One last comment: he always showed me how to work the new appliance (dish washer, clothes washer, etc), but then afterwards he somehow never used it.

[Ysabel]

66. F and M...

F has life's fertility built in - and is *most likely* to be more in tune or to sense the natural life cycle of the planet and all space/s (including bathrooms - but certainly not limited to - fertility is unrestricted and boundless)...

F - *sometimes forget* or are only vaguely aware of their natural fertility or F sometimes denies it or does not understand it - it can be confusing - it does not fit into a box - it is unrestricted - it is boundless...

M - not having life's fertility built in - is *more likely* to have a hard time grasping / sensing / knowing / being...

Fertile / Creative / Full of life...

M is capable of learning / sensing / knowing / being - fertile and full of life...

M sometimes denies or does not understand...?this what?...what M may never have known at all (although i do think that there could possibly be a built in **genetic memory** of a time when we were all F)...

M would do well to learn how to sense this boundlessness of the life cycle - this is F...

The only way that I know of for M to learn of F is from F...

Learn well / Know well...

F - being fertile life itself - already knows M very well - although sometimes F may forget or deny that they know M - sometimes F even forgets or may deny themselves - perhaps sometimes they allow another to convince them to forget - it's that sometimes rather confusing bound-less-full-ness thing...

**F-ethnicity** - i just made up that word...

F and M are really, really, really - truly one - and the same...

------------

edited - to delete one word "or" - it seemed to me > also edited > grammatically < ooops - i misspelled it - odd - out of place...

[Pithlet]

67. We're split pretty evenly.

There are some jobs that we each have as our own, but we both do the basic chores, like the dishes, dusting, etc. I do the cooking, and my husband does the grocery shopping. He also cleans out the cat box, because I couldn't do it when I was pregnant, and it became his job.

I think a lot of the inequity in household chores comes from socialization, rather than an inability on either side to perform certain tasks. I think people who grow up in a household where roles were clearly defined will be more likely to assume those roles as adults.

[prolesunited]

68. An interesting question for parents

What are you teaching your children, particularly the boys. Do they know how to cook, clean and do laundry?

[maxanne]

70. I only had one

and my daughter knows how to cook, clean, and do laundry. She also knows how to fix her truck, and is a crack shot with her 9mm.

I think all kids should learn basic life skills - cleaning, laundry, and rudimentary cooking. I also think that all kids should learn how to change a tire, and their own oil. My dad wouldn't let my sister or I use his car until we successfully demonstrated our ability to change a tire.

Both of my parents cooked, and my mother often mowed the lawn. They had kids so that there were peons to iron, rake, and shovel.

[prolesunited]

76. In retrospect, I can't believe how sexist my statement sounded

Of course the girls should know how to wield a hammer, change a tire and mow the lawn, etc., as well.

I've always been somewhat of a tomboy and had four brothers, so I guess I just kind of take that stuff for-granted. Heck, I used to go with my dad on subcontracting jobs and help install insulation. :-)

[Ysabel]

71. my sons...

yes - know how to do these things - learned from me - or else from various other people - we lived for many years in a co-op house with 35+ people (the house rule was 50/50 split gender-wise - we stuck to it as closely as we were able)...

[seabeyond]

72. dad is a wonderful example

for boys. he loves me and allows me. and i him.

so much so they dont know what i am talking about women being under mens thumbs or a descrimination for women. i just tell them as they grow up they will see, and equal about that time i will be talking to them about what girls do. right now, we just enjoy and love each other

my boys love to cook. and dad a better cook than i. though my boy dont think so, they think i make the best kick ass packaged dinosaur oatmeal around. has to be just right. so low expectations for the women they chose what a gift i give to dil's. i am obsessive with folding laundry exactly my way and filling diswasher exactly my way, so may not let go of that, lol lol but all else, a family one for all kinda thing.

[seabeyond]

74. i know what it is

we honor both the male and the female in who we are. we embrace, we never make less to bring self higher, we prefer to live life with letting all be the best.

[Pithlet]

78. My 3 year old son enjoys it.

He loves to help out however he can. He even jumps up and down and shouts "laundry's done!" when the dryer buzzer goes off, like it's the highlight of the day. I don't expect that enthusiasm to last forever; I hated doing chores when I was a kid.

[populistmom]

94. Yes!

My boys are pretty little still, but they are learning and will continue to learn, just as my daughter has.

[LWolf]

113. Yes.

My boys are 24 and 26 now. They know how to manage a house. One lives with me, and does his half of the housework. He does it poorly; neatness/cleanliness is not a personal priority. The other lives on his own, and his place is usually a mess. Both of them tend to ignore daily chores/maintenance, and then dig out from under the mess every couple of months. For a few days, everything will be pristine. Until the next time, a few months down the road.

Growing up, I worked more than one job to keep a roof over our heads. They cooked, cleaned, etc. right along with me.

[FizzFuzz]

73. I'm no suzy homemaker

but in our house, what little housework gets done is mostly by me. No kids, never interested in that kind of thankless drudgery, so I don't have that kind of gender-role battle to face.

The reason I don't push for parity on this point is cuz we live in the country, and there are alot of jobs that require muscle, which I don't have. Physically I'm very weak. My hun-bun is very strong, so of course he shoulders alot of stuff that I just can't do. Actually though, as I think about it, I don't just take on the cleaning role--he can be pretty damn slobby and if its a severe mess that he created, I don't touch it. Let him take care of his messes, as I do mine.

Also, I'm lazy as hell, so he ends up taking on things sometimes when I have let them go for too long.
There, I have admitted my deep dark secret.

Alsoalso, there are certain stereotypically domestic things that I enjoy, like cooking (sometimes, if I'm not feeling lazy), or vacuuming, which is rather peaceful...likeing certain "femmy" tasks in no way dilutes my feminism.

Of course, because the things he can do are visible and impressive, (tear down a basement and rebuild it; go up on the roof and install satellite/ reshingle/ rebuild chimney, stack five face-cords of wood in an afternoon), the things I can do pale in comparison, or at least it feels that way.

[seabeyond]

75. you are funny

but i hear you

i too have no desire to learn to change a tire, though if need be probably could, the need just has never been

ed will help me out with the piles that could sit there for years.

[Pathwalker]

77. My opinion, and boy do I have one!

Funny you used toilet cleaning. While raising 3 sons, I had one standard punishment should the words "That's women's work" ever escape their lips.
They were given toilet cleaning duty for one week. The lesson they had to learn: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WOMEN'S WORK - IT'S ALL JUST HOUSEWORK. Luckily they were smart enough to learn this the first time they had toilet duty. Never heard those words again.

As a stay at home wife & mother, I was lucky to have a husband who acknowledged that housework was a duty we SHARED. He works full time, but he still does the laundry, the trash, unloading the dishwasher, and manages the recycling. I do everything else, but I am free to ask for his help whenever I need it. I'm a better cook, so I am in charge of that. But my standards of what constitutes cleanliness are such that I'd rather do the cleaning myself. But it is MY CHOICE.

I have regularly asked my sons for help with the housework, and they have learned that it far easier just to do it than argue with me - I am an UNREPENTANT feminist - which means I consider women to be equal to men. My sons know how to do housework, my eldest son is a stay at home dad, and both he and his wife are happy with their arrangement. My daughter-in-law was astounded that he knows how to clean toilets - and she's not complaining a bit!

[Cleita]

80. If all mothers were as enlightened as you about teaching their

sons that they share the responsibility for keeping the home they live in clean and pleasant, we wouldn't have a lot of the gender problems we see today. In my day my girlfriends were expected to do their brother's laundry and ironing, make their beds and clean their rooms and if mom was gone cook for them and their father.

[Pathwalker]

82. Thank you for that compliment, Cleita.

I do try to LIVE my beliefs. It is just all housework. Only limited minds consider it to have a gender connection.

[cally]

85. How nice to see a mostly flame free thread

kudos to all the participants.

I think I am a transition generation. We are the first generation where both male and female routinely work full-time outside the home and tend to not live near family where more help is available. I grew up with a mother and father who both worked full time and my mother did all the housecleaning, cooking, most of the yardwork, and does not see any problem with that.

I saw my peers fighting this more than my parent's generation. Most marriages I have observed start out with an equal division of labor. If a woman stays home with children and then goes back to work, I've noticed that for a long time the division of labor is not equal. In my own home, I tend to do more of the cleaning and cooking and my husband does the neatening and picking up. We each have other tasks that are our own. Early in our marriage he complained that I mismatched the socks and didn't fold them correctly so I've never matched socks again. I once complained that the bathroom wasn't clean enough after he had cleaned it so it's now my task. After that, we both learned to not complain. :-)

[amazona]

86. there is little change in real life

Some men will step in and take the fun jobs like cooking a gourmet dinner or grilling for the weekend. If you wait for them to clean the dishes, much less the bathroom, you will wait forever. This is a gross generalization but to pretend that there is anything like equality in most homes is a big joke. Women still don't get paid as much, still don't have the same opportunities unless they come from well-connected families, so with day care too expensive or not available at all in some areas, yeah, the woman is usually the one stuck at home with the brat. My ideal division of labor would be that a grown man can perfectly well take care of himself. And it may even happen in a thousand years. For now, women have little power -- the man knows if the house gets infested with rats because it's so dirty, it's the woman who will be blamed and judged, not the man -- so why should they lift a finger. Again, a gross generalization here, of course. Many men do try to do a little. But often it's a very little and they blow it all out of proportion to its importance.

Lord, this doesn't sound very progressive, does it? But I think in this area, there hasn't been as much real progress as we would kid ourselves to believe.

[prolesunited]

87. Are your statements based on personal experience?

I think, as previous posters have stated, we are the transitional generation. Perhaps I'm deluding myself, but I think a lot of progress has been made and we are definitely moving in the right direction.

[wings_of_shadows]

91. Heard A million times before

I had not the time to read through the entirety of this post for I had to pee (most assuredly more information than all of you needed). However, without trying to be hostile and remaining straightforward and subtle: Women are smarter. As is a clear blue sky, they have a higher level of concentration, adept at rapid thought processing, skills in the application of logic, and they have proven themselves to almost never be lazy as most men can account. I believe that in our modern world these skills have very specific uses that allow females the opportunity and the freedom to choose their own level of participation. This, I hope, does not involve washing toilets, cooking food, and mopping floors as recurrently occurring from our countries past. The two races working together for the means of survival, friendship, and to achieve positively associated common ends is what I believe will lead us to a better future. The further we argue about such a topic is precisely when we will find ourselves further divided with people of both sex's on either side. So, I guess it comes back around to nurturing the element of respect and sensitivity for one another. May the sun always be upon your face, the wind at your back, and a smile upon your heart.

[MurikanDemocrat]

92. This thread has been an interesting read.

Your initial title scared me!!!

"Are women more genetically suited to scrub the toilet?"

I was just sure this was going to be a doozy! LOL!

[prolesunited]

97. Merely designed to gain attention

"Gender roles and their relationship to feminism" does sound a bit dry, don't you think. :-)

[MurikanDemocrat]

98. Yes, and you certainly got my attention

But I thought I was going to have a fight on my hands when I clicked this thread. ;-)

[populistmom]

93. My husband put himself through college scrubbing toilets

This isn't a big issue in our household, but I do probably do the lion's share of toilet scrubbing now.

As for the questions:

How has feminism changed gender roles?
My view is other than birth and breastfeeding, there's nothing a man can't do that a woman can.

What are the positives and negatives in this shift?
The only thing I see is that having greater choices can sometimes cause you to question them whereas in the days without choices for women, things were just a given.

Do you ever see a day when societal constraints will allow both women and men can pursue their natural inclinations?
I think we do. Maybe it's not always the mainstream, but I think we do now.
Will men be accepted in the role of caregiver?
My husband is in the pediatric health care field which requires lots of nurturing and care-giving in his work. I'm in nursing school and know many men in the same program.

What is the ideal division of labor within the household?
If they're both full time- 50-50. No question. If one spouse if part-time, or at home, they need to take a larger share, but shouldn't be expected to do 100%. Otherwise they're on duty for household tasks constantly and that gets rather tiring after awhile.

Describe some of your experiences with gender roles?
When we first moved in together, the fact he did do his share of household tasks was something I liked. I think in relationships, couples have to work together with this stuff and stop having gender roles. He does his fair share of kitchen stuff, where I've painted and done lawn work at times. We don't narrowly define things (except he never breastfed anyone) and it seems to work better that way.

How have they differed from your parents? My favorite was one of those men who considered himself a feminist because he liked the idea of his wife working, but he still expected her to do most of the housework, so I ended up with a lot of mixed messages from them. He was though, a very active, hands-on father when I was little which was a strong positive in my life.

[Nikia]

95. I support gender freedom for all people

I think that feminism has convinced women that we can take on any role or participate in any activity. To some extent, feminism has done this more men but men haven't bought into this enough.
Since men as a group haven't bought into their freedom from gender constraints they are often more resentful of women who are exercising their choices. They probably suffer more from acting "feminine" than women suffer from acting "masculine".
I think that both genders should be allowed to pursue their natural inclinations regardless of what society tells them that they are suppose to be. In the U.S. we value individual rights, no one is suppose to be bound by what they were born as. It should not be too big of a step to say that people shouldn't be bound by gender when we say people should not be bound by who their ancestors were which has been and is the case in several societies.
Ideally, both adults in the household will split chores equally on the basis of their talents and preferences which may be different than traditional roles.
I did not care about gender roles when I was growing up. My parents were divorced when I was little. My mother always held better jobs and was obsessed with money, power, and status and a very competitive type. My father was a musician who had a difficult time getting and keeping a day job. They both maintained their own households performing both "masculine" and "feminine" tasks. My inlaws are very traditional gender role wise and give my husband a hard time because he makes less than I do and gives me a hard time because our house is not clean because they think it should be all my responsibility. My husband never had to clean as a child and I strongly dislike it as well. If I made more money, we would be much happie rhiring a cleaning person.

[Hammie]

96. Of course

[sarcasm] Women are better at everything than men, including
scrubbing the toilet.  Since is such an critical task in the
modern age, it is only natural that it should fall to women
[/sarcasm]

[prolesunited]

99. Why do so many men

seem to think that feminism is about women asserting that they are superior to men or about hating men or about putting men down.

Oh, I forgot. That's the myth perpetuated by RW misogynistic assholes.

[private_ryan]

101. look at the most outspoken ones

They don't seem to grasp the idea that heterosexual sex is OK, and that most women love guys. I know it bothers them.

It's like Louis Farrakhan saying he's a civil rights leader.

[maxanne]

102. who are these

outspoken ones, private_ryan? Do tell.

[private_ryan]

104. if you don't know

you will not believe me anyway. have a wonderful weekend!

[maxanne]

105. sounds more like

you don't know - why so defensive?

[private_ryan]

107. you're suppose to "have a great weekend"

and watch out, males on the loose.

[maxanne]

109. what's this supposed to mean

private_ryan? Other than you aren't willing to answer the question I asked.It's curious that you always appear on threads about feminism, despite your rather obvious contempt for the concept.

[prolesunited]

110. Curious indeed!

FWIW, private_ryan, I don't fear "men on the loose" nor do I hate men in general. In fact, I even enjoy heterosexual sex. :wow:

I will fight you on every point, speak up consistently, and assert myself at every opportunity. However, have you noticed that I don't fit your cartoon stereotype of what a feminist is supposed to be — nor do most of the other women here.

So, where just where have you encountered these mythical man-hating feminists? :shrug:

[maxanne]

121. I think he's

implying that I'm one of them. :eyes:

[FizzFuzz]

122. "have a wonderful weekend"

I can't stand the disingenuity of people who kick you in the shin and then smirkingly tell you to have a wonderful weekend. Then disappear.

So puerile.

[Hammie]

118. Why do so many people

have an arrested sense of humor. In deference to the humor challenged I even dropped a not so subtle hint. Reread the post and see if you can pick it out this time around.

You really out to learn to recognize a little late night post whoring when you see it.

[Nikia]

103. Are there men upset by their gender roles?

I am interested in this because there has been some suggestion that they are in some posts on this board and by men I know in real life. Girls are given positive messages and role models of women not content to only hold traditionally feminine roles. Hypermasculinity seems to be what boys are encouraged to be. Showing emotion other than anger and participating in "feminine" activities is generally ridiculed. This may even be happening in schools, discouraging male academic achievement since this is becoming a female realm.
I think feminism has done a good job at helping women be more comfortable with expressing who they are and participating in activities of their choice. We may not have complete gender freedom, but a great deal. What do we do about men's gender freedom? Does this need to be a male movement?

[notadmblnd]

112. I think men just have lower standards when it comes to clean

My husband never fussed about how the house looked. He would wash dishes (never clean the sink) and cook some of the meals (breakfast, his specialty was bacon cook in the oven till charred)and even a load or two of laundry. Of course never to my standards (you just don't wash new black jeans with your white tee shirts.

I used to kid him and tell him it was just his way of getting out of doing it. Something I assumed he learned at "man school".

When we first got together I would go outside in the yard and work with him on projects, painting, lawn, we built a deck together. My husband had no formal training in the handyman business and at times I would question his methods of doing something. I remember our biggest argument being over the siding on the garage. I questioned the starter strip (it was upside down). I realized then that he took my questions as criticism and over time I stopped offering my input and labor. We came to the agreement that he would take care of the outside and I would take care of the inside.

My husbands passed now, and I get to figure out how to do it all. We have a ten year old son, so he won't get as far in "man school" as he did. I don't know if this is good or bad as far as chores go. Seems he received plenty of "man training" in his 10 short years, peeing on instead of in the toilet, doing a terrible job at picking up his clothes and moans like I'm killing him when I ask he dump the litter box. Just now he's made a mess in the kitchen and I'm going to have to go help clean it up if I don't want the floor to be sticky.

I never did figure out where these men go for their training. I sometimes think they go nowhere, it's just a gift they're given when they're born?

[seabeyond]

114. you are so beautiful

so enjoyed the story of love. thank you for sharing. i have tingles. ya...........i love my three too, i say that all the time, that includes the oldest, my husband. we even play the silliness of the male that always stays the boy. the one that will still watch a cartoon, lmao and play computer games. literally one of the reasons i got married, he played, guitar games outdoor stuff. he liked to play

ed gets the outside inside fixing guy stuff, i never wanted it and leave it to him, i follow instruction well lol lol.

ya i am just now sweeping into piles and pushing them to the side. i am remembering as a little one, having to eye the piles, cause if we scattered them we got in trouble.

you are so sweet, enjoyed.

[LWolf]

115. This is a great article.

Thanks for posting it. Of course, I'm joining the conversation late; I'm wondering how many posters read all 10 pages!

If I were to summarize what I got out of it, I would have to say that the big point is that people should be balanced. Not an unusual concept coming from a buddhist author!

People of all genders should balance the male and female energies within themselves, and so within their families, cultures, communities, states, nations, and the planet.

One point I definitely agree with is that our nation's obsession with all male energy all the time is out of balance and health.

I can't speak to traditional gender roles. I'm an only person raised by a single parent, and I raised two boys mostly by myself. Even when I was married. During my childhood, there was never a man that nurtured, protected, provided, or participated in a positive way in my family life. During my first marriage, the role the man played was that of abuser. During my second marriage, the man "provided" manly things like a paycheck, along with mine, and plumbing, electrical, construction, and mechanical duties. I did the housework. He did not provide time or attention to my sons; he did not engage them.

For most of my life, I've done everything myself, with no male to share duties, except for my sons.

I think that having a person of any gender at home to keep things running is a vital role that we've lost. Spend half of your life working, and the other half trying to keep up with the chores at home, and you have no time left over for relationships. I don't care who does it, but it needs to be ok for people to not work full time or engage in career competition. The real question is how to value and safeguard those people. There needs to be a balance of power between the "bread winner" and whoever is offering other support.

[seabeyond]

116. other people cant do it for me

i like this post. only i can do it. i have to value the job i do at home. and not want or need another to value me and truly that is a gift to all. yet the same goes with the male participation, i can tell him how much i value, but he has to. i cannot do it for him.

the coolest

thanks.........easy as pie.

talking to my niece, 15 this morning a back and forth both alcoholic emotionally unavailable, and a boyfriend of hers that has the same issues. and back to, lets cut everyone a break. we are progressive, lol a lot further than what we were

[camero]

125. ok, I wasn't originally going to comment

At the risk of another poster coming on and basically patronizing me for my views but here goes.

In essence, why do we need the staitjackets? I mean, shouldn't the concept of a relationship hinge on working together? That's including the household chores.

I once was seeing a woman where when things in the house needed to be done we did them together. For example, dishes (She washed, I dried, we took turns at this). Bathroom chores(she did sink, I did tub, flip a coin for the toilet). Vacuuming and dusting same concept. Same with yard work, trash, and car chores.

Needless to say after all this, I got the "momma's boy" label and didn't get to date for a long time.

Geesh, there are just too many issues to comprehend in the gender wars and alot of times I just throw up my hands and just say forget about the whole deal. Just my .02. I'm not gonna respond anymore.

[maxanne]

126. I think you're absolutely

right, camero. You found a great way to work it out. There's nothing wrong with that, at all.

[Desertrose]

128. camero...I agree...it makes the most sense

and thats what I have tried to teach my son...you do what needs doing and to take turns only makes sense...sometimes one is better at one thing than another...I don't think it hurts to have each do what thier strength is...but some chores are just a pain that needs to be done and to share is fair!!

I try to stay our of gender wars too...we (men & women) are different but thank goddess for the differences!!!!

Peace
DR

[FizzFuzz]

129. why would anyone patronize you

for that solution? Its excellent, respects everyone involved...
Reacting negatively to that wouldn't make any sense at all.