Is everyone afraid to FIGHT for what they believe in these days?

[Codeblue]

This is a post I posted on another thread earlier, but decided that it needed its own thread.

Is everyone just content to march in protest or practice civl disobedience to get they change that America needs? I am not. To me, that isn't fighting. Back in the 60's and 70's when the Civil Rights movement was its height, those kinds of tactics work. I've been told by my professors and whatnot that change doesnt happen overnight and that if given time, civil disobedience and protests will change things.

No, not anymore. We have no time to waste sitting on our arses and marching around holding signs. More people protested Bush around the world than protested anyone, EVER. 19 million people across the planet took to the streets to protests Bush and his invasion of Iraq. What did it do? Hmmm...let's think. Nothing. It did absolutely nothing. We can no longer work within the system to change the system. It has become too large, too corrupt to respond to our pleas for change. The Framers of our Constitution had the elite, not the oppressed minorities in mind when they wrote it. Today, our beautiful country has become the embodiment of the Constitution. There was never any democracy in this country, it has all been an illusion. The poor masses have never had power.

We pretend our votes actually matter in the grand scheme of things, but they don't. Through the electoral college system, we vote for who we may want to represent us in government. However, the electors in this electoral college system can vote for whoever they want. So if I vote for Kerry as president, and the majority of Colorado votes for Kerry, the electors could decide they want Bush, and vote for him. It has happened twice, where an elector voted against the majority of the state just as a protest against the system. And while every elector has never voted against the people's wishes, there's nothing stopping it from happening. The system is flawed, and it has been flawed from the beginning.

Change from within has become impossible. I've heard people say things like "Well if we don't win 2004, we'll have to win in 2008." I am not content with just sitting around until 2008 rolls around. By then, the elections will be just something to appease the people so we think we're voting, but the outcome has been predetermined. This election may well be that way already, but if Bush is allowed to rule for 4 more years, it WILL be so. If a democrat gets elected, it will be Kerry. While Kerry is better than Bush, he is not different enough to really change things.

Many of you may think that I am an extremist, but no I am not. I am simply a radical left-winger striving for change. I would rather not leave this country and abandon my fellow Americans to a fascist government...ruled by Bush or someone else. I would rather FIGHT for our country back. But something radical must happen to obtain that change. The tactics that have been commonly used to create social change for the past century are no longer applicable.

Sorry for the super-long post, but I had a lot I needed to say.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. At this point, the ball is in the rest of the world's court

The US does what it does, what it has done, what you might expect from a "nation" born of genocide, suckled on slavery and weaned on apartheid.


The rest of the countries on earth can either wait calmly for their turn, or they form a coalition and disarm the US.

[fearnobush]

2. What would you propose?

[Codeblue]

4. First of all

to respond to Ductapefatwa...that is the other thing that really bugs me about this country. Everyone seems to be waiting for someone besides themselves to change thing. This is OUR country, we must fight for it...not leave it up to the other countries. There's no guarantee they will do such a thing anyway. We must rely on ourselves.

Secondly, thank you for your question fearnobush. I'm glad you asked. Do we all remember learning about the American Revolution to throw off the yoke of their oppressors? We must take up that cause once again, for truly we are oppressed. If we want our voices to be heard and heeded, we must take radical action. I know many people disagree, and that's fine. Not everyone agreed with the Revolution either. But I believe what I believe and I will FIGHT for that.

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. I would prefer that the US voluntarily cease aggression and disarm

However, I do not think the chances of that are likely.

[Codeblue]

7. Well so do I

I have always believed that violence is the very last resort. But I'm not just talking about U.S. aggression and disarmament. I'm talking about fascism taking root. Liberals are against it, conservatives are against it...yet the Democrat and Republican parties are just proliferating this fall to fascism. The party system no longer works...the corporate sector has too much sway these days.

[DuctapeFatwa]

8. I agree with you.

However, this is a public message board :)

[Codeblue]

10. Ahh yes. I realize that.

[Sugarbleus]

17. lol...yes ahem............but I get your point code

[John BigBootay]

41. Disarm? Do mean completely and unilaterally? n/t

[aquart]

3. Tim McVeigh, is that you?

Where you been, boy?

[Codeblue]

5. Im no Tim McVeigh

I'm not talking about terrorism. I dont want to just go blow up buildings because they are part of the government. Killing innocent people is not my idea here...though it may happen in what I want to do. But I'm not going out to purposely kill innocents there, Chief.

[maggrwaggr]

9. it can be done without violence

If we all just quit what we were doing, marched to Washington D.C. and surrounded the government buildings and didn't let anyone in or out, well, we'd get what we wanted.

No need to raise a single fist.

[Codeblue]

11. I agree.

I would rather not resort to violence. But everyone is too complacent. A giant group is not going to go to D.C. and shut down the city for a while. Plus, what's to stop them from just going back to the way things are now once we leave? Plus, they'd call in the military...I like the idea of a peaceful resolution, but I dont think it would work.

[Andy_Stephenson]

15. Complacency comes from

a lack of knowledge...Knowledge is power. Want to know an issue that unites everyone? The vote. Nothing unites Americans than the vote. WEEEEE doggie. Disarms even the most hostile Republican. I have seen it happen.

[Codeblue]

16. My question to you then

What would you propose? I would like to hear what you have to say on the matter.

[Andy_Stephenson]

21. Well...

The issue as I see it is not left or right or Green or whathave you. It is a question of division. We have been divided on purpose. There is an ends to this as we see now. But in our secular Bible we call the Constitution we have the sacred right to vote. We may not all vote but by God we want it Counted as Cast. I am bringing together broad coalitions of people. Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Libertarians etc etc etc. They all want a paper ballot. I want a paper ballot. I drew a line in the sand today here. I am setting myself out there because I believe half measures are no longer enough. Bold moves are needed now. But I am always an advocate for a peaceful solution.

The issue I am running for office on is absolutely non-partisan! Speak to it in those terms and the division goes away. My family all three sisters called me...holy shit! They have not called me since 9/11 and now...because of the voting machines they have. It is a powerful thing when people think their vote is being messed with.

I know I have seen.

[Codeblue]

35. So are you saying...?

Are you saying then if Bush wins again and there is some sort of suspicion that he won from tampering with the votes and whatnot that people will "see the light" and begin massive protests or something?

[Sugarbleus]

20. Good Point God.............MORE knowledge put out there

Somebunny or persons or orgs have GOT to put the "rest of the story" out there into the public eye. Way toooooo many people don't know what in the hell is going on at all.!

I was watching Democracy Now on Free speech TV. They were having a fund drive. I'm sending in my few bucks because I believe they NEED to keep going. People NEED to know the truth. See the other side. Hear, read, and see the WHOLE picture. We need more savy commentators and knowledgable speakers IN THE PUBLIC EYE to disseminate the truth in ways that the common man can absorb.

Thanks for bringing this subject up, Code

[Sugarbleus]

18. 'Cept, they got them BIG guns ya know..?

As it is, we can't even get close to who or whatever is being protested against now.

I hear ya though, I'm pretty damn angry. I lived for 55 years waiting for a Modern America......don't see it happening in my lifetime unless....

[Codeblue]

36. Yeah I know

I know the U.S. has over the horizon technology and could just wipe out a Revolution without us ever actually seeing any troopers sent against us or anything.

But I dont want to just wait for Peak Oil to happen before we can all have TRUE freedom. Seems like the collapse of civilization is a liitle too far off for me to wait for that.

[Andy_Stephenson]

12. We had a Civil War once...

and it almost destroyed our Nation. It did not accomlish truly, the goals it was fought to achieve. While I tend to agree with you on some points on others I disagree. It is true Fascism has taken hold...although after news I had today I am not so sure that it's not worse, than what I thought.

"We pretend our votes actually matter in the grand scheme of things."...Boy are you right on that count...Diebold Leave the voting to us. We can vote, but not we are not in control.

The Millitary Industrial Complex is working well for some but not for the vast numbers of us. We have starving children, sick, and elderly on our streets yet we spend more on weaponry than any other nation. CRAZY! Yet no one challenges the "leaders" making these decisions.

Some people delude themselves into believing everything is ok, when it clearly is not. We are being outsourced, traded and taxed to death to feed this monster. Civil war is not the answer no more than inaction is. I have a vision (for some odd reason) of the French storming the Bastille. Clearly that is not an option today. Killing only begets more killing. If your trying to save the country great! I applaud you! Just don't kill me in the process.

Look at how India broke the back of the British Empire. Ghandi was a true leader! A Hero. All through peaceful means. That is a testament my friend, to the power of peace. Honestly, I would rather be martyed for peace than killed in a war. War is a zero sum game.

Cointelpro?

[Codeblue]

14. Well thank you for a kind post

I'm glad you didnt resort to calling me Tim McVeigh or some nonsense.

To be honest, I'm not sure if a Revolution is the solution either. But I do know something very radical must be done. It seemse like people are waiting for someone else to take up the torch and do something, and I figure if I DO something, people will rally behind it.

Though I respect Ghandi immensely, I'm not sure his tactics would work in our country today. MLK did the same thing in the 60's and it worked, but our leaders are crazy today...more so even then during the Civil Rights era. If I truly believed that a non-violent tac could work today, I wouldn't mention starting a Revolution. I wouldn't call it Civil War, I would call it a Revolution to throw off the "yoke of oppression". But thanks again for responding in a kind manner.

[Andy_Stephenson]

22. Your welcome....

and thank you for such a thought provoking one.

[anarchy1999]

19. Thank you, dear sir, for a magnificent post!

You said it all.

Peace is the only way. PERIOD!


WAR IS A ZERO SUM GAME!

[Andy_Stephenson]

23. Your welcome...

and Call me Andy or God as you prefer. :evilgrin:

[anarchy1999]

27. Ummm......I think I prefer Andy, and when are you guys coming

to Texas?

Week after next would be good, as in the 20th of March at Crawford, Texas.

http://www.marchcrawford.org/


Along with the Liar Pants on Fire Float from True Majority. Can you or Bev be there that weekend?

To have either of the two of you there would be a coup.

[Andy_Stephenson]

28. Texas is gonna get a visit.

but not march 20th

But soon.

[Zinfandel]

13. It seems that way...we forget what we will be losing...a new car seems

to be more important.

[anarchy1999]

24. Be Careful what you say. You may anger those in control.

Be careful, be silent, don't upset the applecart.

So sorry, so sad. There is much for us all to say, but we must be silent. Fall in line. Be VERY CAREFUL. You May be Banned!!

[Codeblue]

37. You arent serious are you?

Please say you arent.

[corporatewhore]

25. Are you forgetting what happened this summer in cancun protests work

albeit not permitted protests but hey

[anarchy1999]

26. Ummm... Yes.

Far safer, don't you know.

Stick to the party line.

You will go far.

Do not stray.

You will do well if you follow above guidelines.

Sorry for the cynicism.

Just comes with the territory.

[Mari333]

29. There will be civil disobedience at Dover and Ft Bragg March 14, 20

http://www.mfso.org
check it out. massive protests.
will the news cover it even tho the military families and the 9/11 families and the Vets are there?
we shall see.

[Codeblue]

38. Well glad to hear it

Unfortunately, I have no way of getting across the country to participate in these things. And nobody in Colorado ever does anything since the Repugs took over our state.

[Kanary]

30. Anybody asking why there's no cohesion?

Sure, many reasons, but here's one for ya...

Look at all the dissention right here, in a venue for supposedly like-minded people. Instead of coming together and supporting each other, it's move in for the kill, and take no prisoners.

How can *any* movement be built on such? Nobody can do this alone, and yet all the attacking makes us *all* alone.

*We're* part of the problem.

We've been well indoctrinated.

Kanary

[Codeblue]

39. Sure.

But I have not really attacked anyone. I asked a question and am very pleased with the amount of responses it has generated. Most people have been civil in their disagreement with my views, with exception of some scumbag who called me Tim McVeigh.

We will never always agree with everything, even within the "liberal" viewpoint. But if enough of us get some sort of massive "movement" going, I believe that others will flock as they see the action they've been waiting for finally coming to fruition.

[Kanary]

42. ohmy, Codeblue...

How in the world did you take that as me saying *you* attacked anyone in your post?

There has been so much contension here.... very seldom is there anything resembling support. There is so much arguing.

I wouldn't characterize this as "community", and community is what it takes for people to band together and start to fight *anything*

That is NOT a statement towards you, specifically.

It's a statement about DU.

There can be all kinds of good replies. But if it's action you want, that will happen when there is a sense that we're all in this together, and can count on the support of each other. We're a long way from that.

Kanary

[Codeblue]

43. Sorry.

But I still think that most people are just waiting for someone else to rise up and start a movement. And I think once that happens, more people will join that movement and it will gain momentum. You just can't let those people who criticize or attack you get to you.

You can't let them discourage you or take your confidence. Just keep to your ideals and what you believe in, we will be able to make a difference.

Again, sorry.

[Kanary]

44. Well, Codeblue, that's what we're always told.

And, it hasn't yet started anything, has it?

I appreciate that you heard me, and I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but..... I think that what I'm saying is IMPORTANT, and I would like to have my point considered. You know that old saying, "If you keep doing the same things, you'llkeep getting what you've always gotten"? We keep telling people not to pay attention to the hurt they incur, but to "start a movement" anyway. It doesn't happen, and I think there's a reason.

It's not the whole thing, but..... I really believe that if a group of people were to come together with the express idea of being there for each other in the process of working for change, and not allow the kind of attacks that go on here, that it would, indeed, be something different enough to attract others.

You can talk all you want about ignoring the hurt, and keeping on keeping on, but, you see, that isn't really *listening* to what people are saying about how they are affected by that hurt, is it? The first step is to actually LISTEN to people, and acknowledge where they are at the moment. We can't really demand that people be in a certain place, in a certain frame of mind, and have the amount of energy we think they should have to start with. We have to accept people Where They Are, if we want to build a movement for the long haul.

I know that your premise is that everyone is waiting around for everyone else, and I would concur with that. However, if we really want to change that, we have to dig a little to UNDERSTAND WHY some of that is happening.

If you're willing to hear more, I'll say more.

Thanks for getting this started, and for listening...

Kanary

[Codeblue]

47. More...

Of course I would hear more. I want to hear other people's perspectives on the issue. As I said, I'm not yet entirely clear with what I actually want to do myself. So if you would share your knowledge I will gladly listen...

[Kanary]

50. yes, more.. ^_^

Thanks, Codeblue... it's good to have a dialogue here... I appreciate you starting this thread.

One of the things I wanted to mention was that when you said the same thing to me about just getting started, and that others would follow, I wanted you to know that I'm not some young college kid who's never been an activist before. I think it's very easy to keep saying those same things, without realizing that maybe we're talking to a different audience sometimes.

My personal info.... I've been an activist since my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days in Berkeley, during the Vietnam era. So, I'm not exactly a newcomer to all this, nor have I never tried myself to "start something". :) But, you see, after a while, it's natural to get tired. Especially after age and life takes some of it's toll. It's important to remember that some of us have been at this for a while, and it becomes time to hand it over to the next generation. That's as it should be. So, just reminding me to get out there and just do it doesn't address the real issue for folks like me. See what I mean about that?

Now, this issue of some of us just being very tired..... that's what I was getting at about "the long haul". Yes, we can take on a brief issue, make a few phone calls, etc. But, taking on the ongoingness of "the movement" without REAL support... well, that leads to burnout, and that's what I'm talking about. Addressing that by telling people to just do it, or to put in some subtle guilt not only isn't addressing the real issue, it backfires. When people start off having to explain and defend themselves, it's already off on the wrong foot. It's a good idea to realize, when approaching these issues, that you don't know the background of those you're talking with, and maybe your premise doesn't apply to them personally. Most of us are already tired of explaining ourselves, and we will go much further if we avoid that whole pitfall.

What I'd like to mention is that I've met some people from Peace groups in Europe, and I've found that they work totally differently. Rather than just wanting people to work for "the cause", they put in effort at creating a real community. That, in itself, is creating the different world that we say we want. For the long haul, life inevitably inserts itself, and demands attention. When that happens here in the US, people have to take a break from the movement work. That doesn't need to be the case. When there is a real community established, people reach out to help each other, and be there for each other, and the work continues.

It's hard, in the context of this venue, to present a different idea in such a short space, but I hope you can get what I'm tyring to get at.

Kanary

[Codeblue]

57. Yes

I realize that the older generation of "hippies" from the 60's would be tired of the whole "movement" thing. But I'm young...18 as a matter of fact. I don't expect the older generations to really get involved, but to support movements through more of a "backdoor" method.

Quiet support, without actually taking action yourself. I understand. And I like what you're saying about the groups in Europe. However, when a government is fascist, does it really care about the protests of the common people? Can you even protest against it? Obviously, you cannot as the incident in Miami showed us.

I despise useless violence and would also rather use peaceful methods to attain my goals. But when that doesn't work, I feel that one must look to other tactics to achieve the goals. That is just how I feel. If someone showed me a peaceful protest in these sad days that actually worked...then I might change my mind. But as it stands, this is the view that I have.

One other thing. I am not going to wait around until we no longer can protest. If peacefully protesting doesnt get the job done now, then our ability to even complain about the government will be gone. Then what will everyone do?

[Kanary]

61. I thought you were young

The point is, you came at me with the "Create the movement yourself, and start it yourself" thing, without knowing anything about me.

What I was trying to get across to you, is to listen first, and learn something about the other person before you start telling them what they "should* do.

Kanary

[Codeblue]

62. Heh I am young

I'm 18. I was just saying I understand where your coming from on being burnt out.

I didnt mean to imply that you should start the movement yourself. I was simply saying that Americans in general should actually try and do something, because everyone is waiting for a leader. I didnt mean to imply that you should be that leader.

[seabeyond]

31. what fight are you talking

i mean what are you seeing you want to do. did i miss it in your post

i have never been opposed or afraid to fight for what i believe, have all my life, is easy enough for me.

what are you seeing doing

some ideas are dawning just thinking in this area doesnt matter what i do. bush's texas. looking at the couple colleges though adn having kids set soemthing up, democratic party ran out in scandal in 2000 election. dont know if they have come back

[CaptainClark23]

32. Fat n' Happy

(start objective theory)

Sadly, true Revolutions are not spawned from ideals but from empty stomachs, blood running in the gutters, or both.

This ingenuity of this system is amazing, as it continues the age old pattern of favoring the elite at the ultimate expense of the masses; the new twist is that the masses are indoctrinated with consumerism which is the vehicle of wealth of the elite.

In effect, keeping the masses content is the money-maker.
Keeping the electricity flowing, they make millions.
Keeping our stomachs full on substances of little or no nutritional value, they make millions.
Medicating those who sicken from the man-made environmental damage, they make millions.
Keeping our minds dull and complacent by inane media initiatives, they make millions.
Keeping our spirituality in check by absurd religious dogma, they make millions.

With all these basic needs being artificially filled, there is no true will to revolution. Even from those who have "pierced the veil".

Its a brilliant system, really. Machiavelli would have to tip his cap to this set-up.

I fear that our only real hope of this status quo being overturned is through massive and cataclysmic system failure. When the system breaks down so that the elite can no longer fulfill the "needs" we have been conditioned to have. There are several ways this might come about: peak oil being one of them, massive natural climate change is another. And as stated earlier in this thread, if the rest of the world decides to do something about "us" (a remote possibility, IMO).

I do not believe we can 'take down' the system. But we can be ready to recreate a new one. Our efforts and discussions of discontent today are a means of drawing up blueprints of how we might wish things to be in the future.

(end objective theory)

(start subjective reality)

On the other hand, we'd not serve ourselves well to let the system go unopposed, or to indulge in the complacency that binds us.

Organise, agitate, and fight with whatever physical, intellectual, or spiritual weapons you might have at hand. The principles of liberty and equality demand no less than this.

See you in the streets.

[anarchy1999]

34. My hat is off to you, CaptainClark23.

So well said and articulated. Cheers.

Looking forward to meeting you in the street somewhere, along with many others.

[Codeblue]

40. Ahh thank you.

And hopefully I will see you in the streets sometime, somewhere.

[PATRICK]

33. A personal experience

this is coming from an ordinarily shrinking lily who is a real stiff at demos and protests.

There is an apartment complex that runs a scam to intimidate and rob its tenants while expelling them for preferable clients. It was all against NYS protections much less the unnumbered pages of the lease that was worded in plain violations, vagaries and a last run on sentence without a period on the last page. My son called frantic of course that they had no chance.

Advise from others. The police, his roommates, friends, etc. shrugged and said they'd probably have to pay the outrageous penalties added on to the evictions for months left on the lease and "damages".

The people who left were not rich, were normal people, some young with "attitudes" displayed culturally and openly. They all were prepared to go quietly and pick-pocketed into the night TRUSTING it must all be legal and hopeless.

What I did. Simple research, the lease and $25 for a lawyer and the huge money robbery at least vanished with a phone call. There was still the eviction but that would have been a longer costlier fight.
That plus the uglier discovery that lease protection was so predominantly an urban civil rights issue that ordinary contractual skulduggery was hard to get help with, much less attention from Spitz's overwhelmed office. Even so, none of the tenants then or victims of similar ripoffs so much as tried to file a complaint even after we won.

And it scared me no end that this is how prone people really are, people I presumed with more outgoing anger or monetary concern than myself.

More likely people are to take out that anger on an irrational target, stew about it with ignorant friends, than make a simple phone call or confront the actual crooks. Their only self comfort is more rationalized ignorance or "disremembering".

[kayell]

45. You say you want a revolution (COINTELPRO)

Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright

You say you got a real solution
Well you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright

You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright
------------------------------------------

Not saying this is you, but people who have worked for liberal causes or in the peace movement for long have no doubt heard of COINTELPRO and it's history. Most would be very wary of such sentiments from someone of unknown origin. Not to mention, that this tactic is contrary to much that most progressives believe in.

It can be excrutiatingly frustrating to watch what is happening to our country, but IMO violent tactics are either ineffective or lead to problems worse than those they were trying to correct.

[Codeblue]

46. I know of COINTELPRO

We just studied it and did a huge project on it in my political science class. Are you suggesting that I'm an FBI/CIA official trying to incite violent dissent so the government has a motive to completely shut down the left and progressive movements?

HA!! I understand the wariness, but I'm just a simple college student at Western State College of Colorado trying to change things. One day, you all will see that. For now though, I'm still trying to find the means to change things.

[pinto]

48. your moniker and the phrase "One day, you all will see that" upsets me,

seriously. I hear your desire for change yet I worry about your means. Thanks for the posts.

[Codeblue]

49. I realize it sounded sort of...

I dont know...arrogant I guess. But I didn't mean it that way at all. I simply meant that one day, you will see me at the forefront of the new movement striving for social change.

[kayell]

51. I'm saying that your urging the violent overthrow of the govt. on an open

political message board that is known to be actively read by the right wing is either:

a. Unbelievably naive or
b. the actions of an agent provacateur or
c. The method of somebody so full of self importance that they believe that they are immune to repurcussions

And that people who would take you up on such incitement in a public forum are

a. incredibly unaware that people on the internet can pretend to be anyone they want to or

b. someone YOU should be seriously worried about.

And I'm also saying that your statements like "One day, you all will see that." will give most pause to think about the level of ambition that you possess, especially when accompanied by a call for revolution.

And that is in addition to my belief that violent revolution usually leads to problems worse than those it seeks to cure.

ADDED: And that I completely agree with what Thoughtcriminal says below.

[Codeblue]

56. Well...

I must be unbelievably naive then. The government has probably been watching me for a while, and they stick anything they've learned up their asses.

Have you forgotten about the Declaration of Independence? It says, in my words, that when the government fails to do its job, the people must take it upon themeselves to change it. The "Right to Revolt" as it were.

[kayell]

58. There are many kinds of revolt

you have apparently ruled out civil disobedience and non-violent protest already, and jumped straight to hard core methods. Satisfying to the frustration of a very young man dealing with an unresponsive, autocratic govt. but not necessarily very effective.

Its faintly possible that at some horrible time in the future I might have to agree that forceful methods are necessary, but we would be talking french resistance type desperation. If that were the case, the last person I would ever consider trusting would be somebody who started trying to instigate and organize violent revolt this publicly or so far before such a thing became a necessity. Everything I said above still stands.

Added: As far as heros in times of desperation: mine have always been those quiet, unseen ones who actually were effective at saving lives, not the over the top young blowhards who were mainly out for glory. Give me a quaker with an underground railway station any day over a fiery radical full of rhetoric with a bomb.

[Codeblue]

63. I have indeed ruled them out

because I in my short time on Earth the only thing I have actually seen those tactics do...is fail. I haven't SEEN with my own eyes any of those actually work. So yes, I have jumped past them.

And anyway, I wasn't trying to get people to trust me anyway. I was simply stating what I believed and what I think needs to happen. Whether anyone on this board agrees or not...I dont really care. I needed to say it, it has been on my mind for a long time.

And as for actually tring to instigate on this forum. I wouldn't say I was trying to INSTIGATE here. I was simply seeing how people would react to such a proposal. If people showed they were support of such a thing, I wouldnt have begun secret meetings to organize with them.

Thanks for your opinion...really. I like hearing from both sides. However, you seem to think we're enemies or fighting on different sides, when really we are on the same side, just fighting DIFFERENTLY. We both want the same thing, just we are trying to get it in different ways. You follow your quaker with an underground railway, and I'll go my way. That's fine with me.

[ThoughtCriminal]

52. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent

- Isaac Asimov (Foundation)

[nomatrix]

53. May I direct your attention to Miami

You may never heard this happening because it was broadcast on FSTV Democracy Now.

FTAA protest in Miami
http://www.democracynow.org/static/miamimodel.shtml

"After last week, no one should call what Timoney runs in Miami a police force. It's a paramilitary group. Thousands of soldiers, dressed in khaki uniforms with full black body armor and gas masks, marching in unison through the streets, banging batons against their shields, chanting, "back... back... back." There were armored personnel carriers and helicopters.

"The forces fired indiscriminately into crowds of unarmed protesters. Scores of people were hit with skin-piercing rubber bullets; thousands were gassed with an array of chemicals. On several occasions, police fired loud concussion grenades into the crowds. Police shocked people with electric tazers. Demonstrators were shot in the back as they retreated. One young guy's apparent crime was holding his fingers in a peace sign in front of the troops. They shot him multiple times, including once in the stomach at point blank range."

-snip-

Miami Mayor Manny Diaz called the police actions last week a model for homeland security. FTAA officials called it extraordinary. Several cities sent law enforcement observers to the protests to study what some are now referring to as the "Miami Model."

This model also included the embedding of undercover police with the protesters. At one point during a standoff with police, it appeared as though a group of protesters had gotten into a brawl amongst themselves. But as others moved in to break up the melee, two of the guys pulled out electric tazers and shocked protesters, before being liberated back behind police lines. These guys, clearly undercover agents, were dressed like any other protester. One had a sticker on his backpack that read: "FTAA No Way."

Watch the video too. Unbelievable!!!!

[Codeblue]

55. I heard about that.

A few guys from my college were down there and wrote about it in the campus newspaper. Crazy stuff I say

[Nederland]

54. Our numbers are too small

Fact is, the real reason that today's non-violent protests don't generate the same results as protests of the past is because we simply don't have the numbers. On April 24, 1971, more than half a million people marched on Washington to protest the Vietnam War. In 2002, the ANSWER protests generated only 100,000 protesters, despite the fact that the country is now nearly 50% larger than it was then. When the number of people that you can summon to an anti-war protest falls from 0.25% of the population to a mere 0.03% of the population it is no mystery as to why you don't see the same response.

[kodi]

59. It is wrong to use immoral means to attain moral ends.

you tread too close to that path with your rhetoric.

I find my dearest allies also carry the plague of my worst enemies.

[Viking12]

60. Vaclav Havel

Read Havel's essay, "The Power of the Powerless." Live in the truth, others will follow.