From feminism to feminazi: Reclaiming the language

[prolesunited]

An interesting phenomenon that I've seen here, which I wouldn't have expected from a progressive board, is a willingness by both men and women to have a negative reaction to the term feminism.

That has always puzzled me, so I thought we could discuss the term today in hopes of reaching some consensus.

Here's some starting points:

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?

Is feminism a relic of the past?

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

[ihaveaquestion]

1. Feminism is ....

several things - a movement, an attitude, a way of life. It's about equal human rights for women - as defined by each woman as she sees fit. Yes I'm a feminist ... and a humanist.

I've never understood the term "militant feminism." Unless there is violence, can anything be called "millitant?" Some people seem to use it to describe women demanading their rights and not taking no for an answer. To me this is acceptable behavior for anyone, male or female, black or white.

The term "feminazi" is hate speach, pure and simple. Those who use id are mysoginists - no question.

[Bandit]

13. The term "feminazi" is hate speach, pure and simple.

I agree 100% and every time I hear anyone use such a term I let them know exactly how I feel about such usage. I don't know if that helps or hurts but it makes me feel better. They should know they are being hurtful and it isn't cute in any manner what-so-ever.

[RoeBear]

163. If you do a search for a thread that I started...

...you'll see I posted about a magazine that used the term militant feminist in 1937 (or so).

[OKNancy]

2. I'm a feminist

It makes me laugh now where I used to be irritated but, I think it is funny how a woman ( usually young) will say, "I'm not a feminist, but I beleive in...." then they will list several policies and ideas that are feminist.

[prolesunited]

3. I have seen that with some of the younger

female posters here — one of the reasons I started this thread.

Why do you think this has occurred? How can we correct it?

You may appreciate this quote by Gloria Steinam:
"In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: either she's a feminist or a masochist."
—Gloria Steinem

[Ripley]

5. And they are also in college, or in jobs that women couldn't have.

before the Feminist Movement. I'm not that old and I remember the want ads having jobs listed by gender. Female: babysitter, maid, schoolteacher, nurse. Male: everything else.

I can't understand why these young women seem to be so ignorant. Didn't their mothers teach them anything about what they lived through? It was only in the 1970's that women were allowed to go to LAW SCHOOL. Every woman who is now in Law School should know that and be thankful to the women who fought hard for that right to be available to them.

While it appears that many women like to take advantage of all the doors opened to them by feminists, they want to have it both ways. For example, women like Coulter, and the Concerned Women of America. If we went back to the "good old days" they like to talk about where Mom was in her apron and her daughter was planning on becoming a wife...where would they be? They certainly wouldn't be on TV, selling books, and getting paid 6 figures for spouting off self-loathing.

I guess the only answer is that men have done this. Conservative men are still the owners of 99% of wealth and power in this country and they have been successful in controlling the media's message. While women may be news "anchors" how many of them look like Dan Rather or Walter Chronkite? How many are over 30? The message to young women is you must look pretty and skinny to catch a man.

It's really sad that in 2004 women are so afraid what some guy might think, they're afraid to use a word to describe themselves that is nothing but accurate. Feminist is kind of like the word liberal...people have allowed the conservatives to change their vocabulary. Wimps.

[Rich Hunt]

29. they'll change

...once they've spent enough time in the real world.

I've seen even affluent, professional women get screwed and backstabbed by the usual b.s. It's astonishing how resilient it is.

[Ysabel]

89. putting younger women down...

probably won't help win them over...

[RoeBear]

162. You don't really beleive this is true do you?

"It was only in the 1970's that women were allowed to go to LAW SCHOOL."

[AZCat]

4. This is not my area, but here are some basic definitions

This a summary from a class I took years ago.

Feminist Categories

Radical Feminism
- Deeply suspicious
- Disillusioned with formal organizations
- Public rhetoric and protests

Liberal Feminism
- Work to combat institutional discrimination
- Lobbying, drafting legislation

Separatists
- Women are fundamentally different from men
- Remove themselves from mainstream culture

Structural Feminists
- Women and Men are fundamentally different
- Everyone should include women's values

Lesbian Feminists
- Only women who do not orient their lives around men can be free
- Emotional and physical intimacy with women
- Lot all lesbians are lesbian feminists

Revalorists
- Want to recover historical contributions of women
- Celebrate women's traditions and skills

Womanists
- Traditional feminism has excluded women of color

Power Feminists
- Opposite of victim feminists
- Women have responsibility for themselves
- Empower yourself

Source: Class notes

I hope this helps.

[kiahzero]

7. And the issue is:

many people define feminism as "Radical Feminism" or "Lesbian Feminism", and attack other types as if they were equivalent.

[iverglas]

6. a bit of history

Back in the late 60s and early 70s, when I was first being a feminist, we didn't call it that. It wasn't "feminism", it was "women's liberation". "Feminists" were those people who hated men, and possibly the ones who burned bras.

Now, this is partly because I was hanging out with Trots, who undoubtedly had some agenda behind this terminological correctness. But I think this was common in the wider world, too.

Women's liberation seemed to be about the more tangible stuff -- wages, childcare, marital property, contraception -- and to include traditionally "left" analyses and demands. Feminism pushed the old envelope into examinations of patriarchy and personal politics, and I'd say gained momentum from the disregard for "women's issues", and women, on the part of the left and other liberation movements. (Who can forget "the only position for women in this organization is prone"? - even though he presumably meant supine - and the generalized discrediting of women's grievances and demands in the student movement, trade unions, and political parties. At least the Trots had to recognize their legitimacy if they wanted to co-opt the women expressing them!)

I guess that the traditional approach became subsumed into the broader movement and analysis, as the real causes of the problems the traditional approach was trying to address became better understood. Opposing patriarchy, and talking about personal politics, wasn't "man-hating", it was crucial to women's development. I think that this shift may have been less complete, in some ways, in the US, from what I gather from criticisms of things like NOW, which apparently has been less willing to broaden its scope and go after root causes rather than tinkering in a way that will benefit only some women. But of course I recognize that I have been exposed to messages about this from quarters that were less than transparent about their own real aims.

I may have disagreements with some people and ideas within the broad feminist movement, at what we might call both ends of it. I would of course never call any of them names, since I generally refrain from ad personam characterizations of the messenger when I can challenge her argument. Speaking of course, at the, um, "moderate" end, of recognizable feminists or at least people plainly working in women's interests and not against them, which excludes things like iFeminists -- calling them what they obviously are is not name-calling, it's a more than arguable conclusion from the facts. ;)

Disadvantages of feminism? Can't think of a one. The day no man opens the door for me because I'm a woman is the day I'll jump for joy, not bemoan my lost privileges. Certainly there are some forces of darkness who have attempted to use "feminism" against women -- turning women's assertion of their right to express their own sexuality into an excuse for exploiting women sexually, turning women's demands for equal treatment into an excuse for denying the victimization of women -- but hey, whaddid we expect?

Am I a feminist? Heh, a good male friend of mine quizzically asked me that when he was visiting back from Vancouver a couple of years ago -- he'd only known me for a couple of years before that. "Iverglas," he said, "are you a feminist?" I think I looked rather aghast. "Have I done something to make you think I'm not??" I said.

.

[pmbryant]

8. some quick answers from a 'feminist'

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?

The acceptance of women as full members of public society, on an equal footing with men. Fair treatment and fair pay; lack of sexual harassment. No subtle (or unsubtle) stereotyping of gender roles.

Is feminism a relic of the past?

No. Women are far more accepted into public society at the current time than they have ever been in the history of our country. But there is a long way to go. And given the reactionary forces resisting these changes, activism is required as much as ever.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?

No. It's a term used by the radical right to degrade women who stand up for themselves and/or other women.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?

Not sure what "militant feminism" is supposed to mean exactly. If it means over-aggressive counterproductive actions, then I'd have to mention the promulgation of ridiculous statistics that suggest most men are willing rapists. But I would prefer not to use any label with the word "feminism" in it for such disturbing acts.

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?

No disadvantages. The advantages are much more freedom of choice for women to participate in roles outside the home. And virtually all laws discriminating against women have been abolished in recent decades thanks to 'feminism'.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

Yes.

--Peter

[prolesunited]

92. It takes a confident man

to describe himself as a feminist. Props to you and all the other DU men who claim the mantle. :toast:

[Vladimir]

202. Yes quite

And actually that point leads to the other side of this, which is that the dehumanization is of both men and women. It serves the establishment to keep the image of a woman as a sexual object, because it is simultaneously a way of denigrating men into objects that are interested in a bit of puntang and nothing else. And when men accept that, they don't question other things as much either. But the thing that offends me most is the way that it is assumed that I will judge women on their looks first and foremost, whereas with men I won't even notice how they look. It denies my right to separate my aesthetic and personal judgements and basically invites me to assert that I am a moron.

As for your original question, I don't think feminism is anywhere near done. The fight for women's rights will always remain an ongoing facet of progressive policy.

V

[cally]

223. Thanks

I hope you start another thread with this. Feminism tried to allow choice. I think much of the feminist activism is about giving men choice. Recognizing and supporting men's beliefs. Realizing that men don't actually live or value the stereotypes.

[Mari333]

9. My journey through feminism has changed over the years

Back in the 50's, it wasnt hard, as a young girl, to see exactly what was wrong with the roles women were taught to embrace..the post WW2 era was ripe with images of men coming home from the war, and women being shuffled out of the Rosie the Riveter factories and thrown en masse into the kitchens of America, replete with every appliance imaginable and high heeled women clopping around carrying meatloaf and soothing their husbands egos when they came home from a hard day at work. As a child, I watched the TV with angst as to what role I would have to play as a grown up, and just shuddered at the thought that I would ever have to force a girdle over my ass and clop around with 3 pounds of hair on my head, blacken my eyes with mascara, or bring martinis to my husband who could put me into an insane asylum legally if I burnt the dinner. I Love Lucy sucked, as did all of the women we saw on TV in the 50s, mindless chattering morons, all of them, and its no small wonder we rebelled. I rebelled early on and knew perfectly well I would not embrace such silliness.
In the 60s and 70's, the civil rights and anti war movement were the adjustments that needed to be made to change the makeup of what the USA was about, and to change the cultural mores that had existed for so long..
The womens movement sprang up as a force, and it had been a force for many years anyway, but this time it demanded more then just the vote, it demanded a real inner journey of politics as personal. Politics started in the bedrooms and kitchens of the world.
I was an angry young woman, and I was determined to slap away all the vestiges of archaic roles handed to me and fight against them..I met men who felt the same way about their own roles as men, and they too fought against the cultural roles that smothered their individuality.
As I aged, I realized, especially having children , and sons at that, that a great deal of what I considered about men and women extended to boys also, how they are raised in a patriarchal society, how they view the world, and how we as parents embrace the nurturing side of their being. In a society that admires chest thumping and aggression, believe me, its hard work for a parent to raise sons as nurturers.
Nonetheless, I am now a 52 year old woman, and with age comes a lot more power in a sense..you shed the concerns about being young, the concerns that some adult disapproves of what you do, and you embrace a sense of peace in that you didnt buy into the roles, and you won. You imagine that what you did and who you are did make a difference, and I never clopped around in those heels or submitted to anyone's whim and agenda.
Nonetheless, I also know its each persons right to decide how they want to live and follow their own choices. Woman or man. If, however, they stick their choice into my personal territory, I will rebel and critique them.
Right now my anger is at what I see as a patriarchal neofascism destroying everything around me , a pendulum swing to an even worse time then the 50s in many ways, a stifling death knell to everything we accomplished in the 60s and 70s when we tore the masks off the corporate sell job of roles women and men had to play
Change takes time, this country is only 200 years old. thats 4 generations, and I have lived 52 years of that time.
Feminist? Deep eco mother old woman drastically concerned about living in balance at a very personal level, and embracing the nurturer in women and in men now. And virulently angry again, as I watch my children and gr children's earth being destroyed and their lives being shattered because a few assholes cant get past their own egotistical agenda of death and self hatred.

[veganwitch]

10. limbaugh coined "feminazi"

so any left-leaning man who uses it should be ashamed.

and ive been a feminist (even when i didnt call myself one) since the day i was born.

my mother was the person who changed the dress policy at her school. (women student workers would have to put on dresses/skirts and nylons to work food service even if they were just washing dishes. men could wear their street clothes.)

im thankful every day for the women in the past that have allowed me to become who i am today.

[prolesunited]

12. Here's some more on the term and you're correct on the origins

Feminazi
Feminazi is a pejorative term coined by conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh to refer to the feminists that he personally finds the most obnoxious. According to Limbaugh, "a feminazi is a woman to whom the most important thing in life is seeing to it that as many abortions as possible are performed." (source: The Way Things Ought To Be, Rush Limbaugh, p. 192-93, July 2, 1992). Limbaugh also uses the "feminazi" term during discussions of feminist actions or attitudes not specifically related to abortion.

Others use the term even more loosely than Limbaugh, referring to one or more feminists, drawing an allusion between them and the Nazis, often with varying definitions and explanations of the feminazi term. The term seems to be often used to refer to "militant" feminists, using the 'nazi' portion of the term to draw an analogy with totalitarianism in general rather than the Nazi party per se.

http://www.fact-index.com/f/fe/feminazi.html

[Atlant]

11. As is proven over and over again, this isn't a progressive board.. (NT)

[pmbryant]

14. Please explain further

What are you referring to?

--Peter

[Atlant]

15. Sorry, as you well know, the rules prevent this sort of discussion. (NT)

[pmbryant]

16. No, I don't know

If you deny that there are people who consider themselves progressive in most areas who do react negatively to the word 'feminist', then I think you are not living in the same country I am.

This attitude goes far beyond this message board.

--Peter

[Atlant]

17. Here's the statement made by ProlesUnited that I was reacting to...

Here's the statement made by ProlesUnited that I was reacting to:

> An interesting phenomenon that I've seen here, which I wouldn't have
> expected from a progressive board, is a willingness by both men and
> women to have a negative reaction to the term feminism.

I was merely pointing out that, in my opinion, this is *NOT* a
progressive message board (and, sotto voce, I was also saying that,
therefore, one could not draw conclusions about how progressives
feel about feminism from the posters on this message board, many
of whom are clearly *ANYTHING BUT* progressive).

Atlant

[pmbryant]

18. Perhaps it's time for a poll

Find out how many here call themselves 'progressive' versus 'moderate', 'centrist', 'leftist', 'conservative', etc. (Or to simplify, simply 'progressive' and 'not progressive'.) :-)

The vast majority of people on this board fit the standard definitions of progressive, I think. But each of us may have a different definition, so maybe not.

:shrug:

--Peter

[RandomKoolzip]

35. Jesus, this is about Kerry, isn't it?!?

More third party sour grapes?

[Atlant]

41. No, actually.

In the context of this thread, I could not care less about Kerry.
But any unbiased observer of this site would likely conclude that
the site has become a lot more "MiddleOfTheRoad" since its
inception.

DU used to stand for something and be an exciting place to come
for progressives held hostile in "red" America.

Now, it's just more of the same old shit.

And you only need to read the replies anytime that Feminism,
choice, women's rights, gay rights or any vaguely controversial
"Oh God, the liberals are embarrassing us again!" topic comes up
to see what I'm talking about.

Atlant
(Proud to be a Feminist man)

[RandomKoolzip]

49. Well, that's gonna happen.

Think of how many people were on here when DU started, and think of how many are here now. You are gonna get more diversity of opinion with a control group of 40 thou than a select, activist few. And as narrowly defined as the political poles are, a lot of people would consider CNN to be explicitly leftist. We know it's not true, but that's the way a lot of people think.


It's like when your favorite band starts becoming more popular. The music hasn't changed for the worse, but the fans aren't just you and your buddies anymore. Sorry, but that's the way it is.


And frankly, it's pretty irrelevant to prolesunited's point, so I'd suggest starting a seperate thread where we can argue about THIS subject than hijacking her thread (not a very feminist or progressive thing to do, by the way, hijacking threads started by women to spout off on your own troubles....)

[Atlant]

81. Thanks for your correction.

> And frankly, it's pretty irrelevant to prolesunited's point, so I'd
> suggest starting a seperate thread where we can argue about THIS
> subject than hijacking her thread (not a very feminist or progressive
> thing to do, by the way, hijacking threads started by women to spout
> off on your own troubles....)

Thanks for your correction; rest assured that I'll give it all the
weight that it deserves.

By the way, did you get a little ironical twinge as you wrote your
correction of me? I mean, here you are, an admitted man, taking
offense at me on behalf of ProlesUnited, who we may presume is
certainly able to take offense at me all on her/his own if s/he
wishes to. Didn't this trigger your self-referential-put-down
detector?

Atlant

[Kamika]

76. lol

just who the h*ll are you to decide who is progressive or not?

[Atlant]

84. I'm reasonably comfortable that people who disclaim feminism...

I'm reasonably comfortable that people who disclaim feminism
*AREN'T* what I would call a "progressive". You are, of course,
entitled to disagree with my opinion.

Atlant

[AZCat]

19. But should we accept someone's self-ascribed label?

I thought the term 'progressive' was so tied to being a feminist that one couldn't be 'progressive' without being a feminist.

I would rather judge someone by their actions than by what they claim they are (although this is difficult on a message board).

[supernova]

20. The degree to which

self-styled progressives don't claim the word "feminist" anymore is the degree to which the extreme right wing of the republican party has been successful at shaping the terms of the debate in the public mind. Prolesunited is correct on that issue.

We progressives of whatever flavor need to be claiming our own rhetoric and not using words that defeat our ideals at the outset.

edit: As for "feminist" I think we need to reclaim it, just like the word "liberal."

[AZCat]

21. This Buzzflash interview needs some props for addressing this

George Lakoff, UC Berkeley prof, is interviewed by Buzzflash about this very subject. Good stuff, and Lakoff should be required reading for all progressives.

link:
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/01/int04003.html

[supernova]

22. I've become a big fan

of Prof Lakeoff. This is EXACTLY what we need.

I would love to send a donation to the Rockridge Institute when I start working again.

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/

[prolesunited]

73. Thank you for understanding

my primary point and for your contributions to this thread. :-)

[Kamika]

23. feminism now is just a bunch of angry women

As I see it the goals of feminism has been reached, that is to give men and women equal rights in society. We are finished.

Feminism in the 19th century, and up to 1970 or so was great and needed but it has been hijacked now.

And yes I use that term a lot because whenever I see feminists today it's a bunch of angry women complaining about men, all they do is to complain about men it's incredible. They never complain about unequality amongst women.. just how men are pigs etc.

I'm absolutely not a feminist in todays meaning, since it has been hijacked by semi militaristic women who just wants to rebel.

And my personal examples has been when I have been called bad stuff because I have said stuff like I'd like to be a housewife.. have a bunch of kids etc..

[Mari333]

24. I stayed home out of choice with my kids and Im a feminist

ergo, any person who tells you that being a housewife and being a feminist are incompatible are full of shit. Being a feminist means that all women and men have the right to choose what role they wish to be in society. Feminism was and is about choices, for men and women, not to have to play out roles that are handed to us by society if we dont choose to play out those roles
Right now the ecological disasters occuring due to the Bu$h administration, the attack on womens reproductive rights, the attack from the ultra extremist religious White House , demands that women and men address those issues..
the word feminist is a word, and if you have been taught what the GOP wants you to think..that we are rabid and man hating, we arent..ask my sons and my husband, who love me dearly.

[Kamika]

25. nobody taught me it

It was feminists right on this board that called me stuff.

[Mari333]

27. well, if anyone yells at you for staying home with your kids

tell them to shove it...I would! Just tell them your personal choice is what feminism is supposed to be about, and that your personal choice is none of their business..=))

[Maeve]

30. Feminist at-home mom with four kids right here

If you are insulted for your personal choice of lifestyle here at DU, please alert on it. That would be a personal attack and in violation of the rules.

[iverglas]

46. cheese, and you're *surprised*

that anyone on this board would "call you stuff" when you call them stuff like --

And yes I use that term <FEMINAZI, I presume> a lot because whenever I see feminists today it's a bunch of angry women complaining about men, all they do is to complain about men it's incredible. They never complain about unequality amongst women.. just how men are pigs etc.

I'm absolutely not a feminist in todays meaning, since it has been hijacked by semi militaristic women who just wants to rebel.

That's about as worth responding to with reason as any other uninformed and thoughtless commentary on any other individual or group of people. Lordy.

You go right ahead and be a housewife, my friend. And when you end up having to provide for yourself and your kids without marketable skills and without any social supports to make it possible to do it decently, or widowed or cast off without a decent retirement income -- as you are, statistically, very likely to do -- why then you come crying to us feminists. And we won't say "we told you so". No, we'll just get a little more angry and a little more militant, and maybe if it happens enough times we'll actually get some improvements made.

Kinda like we have done so far -- just enough, it seems, for you, and the hell with anybody else who hasn't quite made it into that utopia in your head where no women are sexually assaulted, no girls starve and mutilate themselves, no housewives are beaten and killed by the hand that feeds them, no sole-support mothers and their kids live in poverty with the mental and physical illnesses that accompany it, and anybody who claims it happens and demands that something be done about it is just a damned complaining feminazi.

.

[Kamika]

53. I never called anyone a feminazi here.

[October]

87. I too am a feminist and stay-at-home mother

BY CHOICE.

I'm also an artist -- but that's beside the point.

I've commented on this subject a lot around here at DU. The GOP types have made "liberal" and "feminist" into bad words for many people -- unfortunately that includes would-be liberal feminists who now fear the title and all its baggage.

Feminism does not mean angry, and never did. Were they angry at times -- yes and rightly so. But Limbaugh and Schaffley had a political agenda, and it worked. Young women and Dems still shy away from these terms.

Of course, men can be feminists too, but the right wing so "bastardized" the language -- few would dare claim the moniker.

I say fight back -- embrace the word!

[catzies]

33. How about concrete examples?

We have equal rights?? Which ones?

Who hijacked feminism?

"All we do is complain about men?" "Never complain about unequality amongst women??"

So the way you see it, women are equal with men but unequal against each other?

Just in case you didn't know, you can be a housewife and stay home with your kids and still be a feminist...feminists do support that...so does the pro-choice movement...pro-choice is about ALL CHOICES.

I'm sorry that you don't see that the gains made by generations of women before you allow you to have those choices.

[Pithlet]

36. Another feminist stay-at-home mom.

Anyone who called you bad names just because you wanted to be a housewife isn't being a feminist. They're being a jerk. Now, if you state that all women should be housewives, that is different.

Feminism is NOT about complaining about men. It isn't about hating men. It isn't just about being angry. It's not about hating makeup, and pretty clothes. You seem to think that there is no longer a problem, but that isn't so. I think a lot of the negativity you've faced may be due to expressing the opinion that we're equal now, so what is there to complain about? It is that sort of complacency that is leading to the backlash against feminism.

People against the feminist movement have been painting us with such negative brushes (man haters!) for so long, and so loudly, that too many people are buying into that.

[Kamika]

37. ok well thanks

I got a lot of interesting input today :D

[Pithlet]

50. Good.

I hope you at least consider what some of us feminists, who would never criticize anyone for their choices, are saying. I think a lot of us are silent sometimes because we've been bashed on this board before. I've seen stay at home moms referred to in a negative light, here. I know it happens. But, I know that isn't what equality is about. I hope more of us are more open here, and that no one criticizes anyone's choices as women.

[prolesunited]

38. So much here that I hardly know where to begin

You honestly believe the goals of feminism have been reached? That in today's society equal rights between the sexes has been reached?

I strongly disagree. How would you explain the fact that women still earn 87 cents on the dollar? That they make up half the population but not half the legislators? That they still hit the glass ceiling in the corporate world? That their reproductive rights and choices are still being threatened?

You really think that is equality?!?!? Granted, we have made great strides but our work is far from finished.

Who has hijacked feminism? (Except for the RW and their demonization of it?) Can you please give me some names of these militaristic feminism leaders and some examples of their outrageous behavior. And if you did happen to find some, are they representative?

I proudly declare myself a feminist. When do you see me posting angry rants about men? When have I slammed them? I certainly have never painted men with such a broad brush as you have with feminists.

I like men, a lot of them here in fact, but liking men and refusing to be a doormat, standing up for yourself, and asserting yourself are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I find that the most worthwhile men like strong, independent women.

I'm sorry that someone has questioned your choices, but that statement is extremely prejudicial. Just because one or two people may have, it certainly doesn't mean all feminists are that way. You certainly cannot judge the behavior of a group based on one or two people.

To me, it's all about choices and if that's the choice that would be most fulfilling to you, that's wonderful. Goodness knows that we need more dedicated parents out there who will ensure their children are raised right.

However, there was a time that was practically the ONLY role available to women and that is certainly not the right option for all of us. I watched my mother deal with severe depression most of her life because she was trapped by that gender expectation.

She wanted to be out in the world working and instead, she was trapped raising six kids and catering to my father. Her anger and resentment would result in her lashing out at us. It was not a good situation for anyone involved.

I want all women to be empowered to be able to make the choices that are best for them and to have the necessary support (societal approval, freedom from harassment, adequate daycare, etc.) to be able to make their dreams a reality. To me — and many of the other people here — that is what feminism is REALLY all about, not the right-wing caricature that you presented.

So, tell me again why you're not a feminist?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[throwthebumsout]

65. Bravo...well said

I agree 100%.
I just don't get this generation.
My best friend was a stay-at-home Mom for 9 years, because she thought it was important, and because she was willing to make the financial sacrifices. But once the kids are in school, what the hell is there to do? What self-respecting person allows themselves to be supported by another person? The cost is high. You pay a terrible price for economic dependence on another person, and I think the toll is insidious. Little by little, your expectations decrease, and your mind rots.

[Pithlet]

72. This self respecting person does.

It may not be the choice for you. Just as the choice to be a lawyer may not be the choice for everyone.

We aren't all uneducated bon bon eaters with no marketable skills to fall back on.

I don't consider myself entirely supported by my husband. I may not be pulling the check directly from an employer, but I am a contributer to the household. I work for a living.

[Ripley]

75. I got your back Pithlet.

I'm a "struggling" artist and don't consider myself non-respecting either because at this point in my life my partner pays most of the bills. People have very unique situations at different points in their lives and there should be no "wrong" or "right" way to do it.

:hi:

[throwthebumsout]

96. Gee, where's my check for cleaning my house?

I think they should establish a fund somewhere so that I can be reimbursed for sleeping with my husband, doing the dishes, and keeping house.

[Pithlet]

99. That's priceless.

I bet equating housewife with prostitute gets you all kinds of accolades at those dinner parties. Such sparkling wit.

[prolesunited]

77. So, you're opinion

is that no self-respecting woman would chose to be a homemaker? I strongly disagree with that and how are in a position to criticize the validity of someone's personal choice?

If there is mutual agreement within the relationship, why isn't that a valid choice? And what if they are making other contributions to their community as well through volunteer service or perhaps pursuing their passion in art or gardening.

"I think the toll is insidious. Little by little, your expectations decrease, and your mind rots." <-- This statement could easily be made about the WalMart cashier as well. It's not your necessarily your career path, but your personal motivation, that would determine this.

[Ripley]

79. It seems that stereotypes are everywhere.

At one point in my life when I was working extremely hard in the Corporate world, I had similar negative feelings towards "housewives," in particular a wife of a co-worker. However, after I got to know her and what she did with her life, I was happy for her.

There are some women who choose to stay home and be uninformed and don't want to think hard about big issues and certainly it would seem like they are doing themselves a disservice. However, I think there are just as many uninformed women who work and hang out with the guys who hate the feminists. Lots of women today who stay home have worked at one time or another and are not as mind rotted as the previous poster implied.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

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[Pithlet]

95. Judgmental, much?

I bet you're a hoot at parties.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[Pithlet]

105. response

You have no idea what I've accomplished in my life. You've merely dismissed me because I've stated that at the moment I stay at home with my children. I don't give a damn about you personally, but reading such things does sting. Yes, we all make judgments about people. The difference lies in the criteria we use. You should really try to get out and meet more housewives, and other lowly scum of the earth. You may open up your mind just a little bit. At the very least, it will give you fodder for your dinner parties with the important people.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[Pithlet]

110. I read your first post.

My subsequent posts were in response to other insulting things you said. But, seeing as I'm only a lowly housewife not to be admired, I can understand your easy dismissal of my reading comprehension. I could do the same with your comprehension about how message boards work.

Oh, you have a best friend who was a stay at home mom? That's really nice of you.

[throwthebumsout]

113. Oh, enlighten me, Great Message Board User

How exactly do message boards work? I'm supposed to mince words and spare feelings? I hazard a guess that I was using message boards on the Net before you had your first AOL account.

But then, maybe you spend a lot more time on this particular one. Squeezing it in between quality time with your kids, of course.

[Pithlet]

117. You can do whatever you want.

You don't have to mince words and spare feelings. It's obvious you don't feel compelled to do so at the moment. I was responding to your assertion that I have poor reading comprehension because of facts stated in your original post, when in fact, a majority of my responses to you have not been because of that post. I do believe I said "meet MORE housewives". Now, who's reading comprehension should we question? Not to mention the intelligence of judging a whole group based on one person you know.

By knowing that I'm a housewife, you can also deduce how long I've been on the internet, how often I post here, and whether I've ever had an AOL account? Wow, you're just amazing.

[Kamika]

120. damn..

I step away from DU for one hour and I miss the biggest Drama ever..
:(


You guys should be abit more polite towards eachother.. you don't wanna get banned or anything

[Pithlet]

126. That's okay Kamika.

I appreciate your concern, though :) Besides, what else does this lowly stay at home wife have if she doesn't have her drama?

[Ysabel]

112. careful...

you don't fall on your ass while you hurry scurry to switch seats - whoooops - i think you already did...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

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[throwthebumsout]

119. hee hee

That's yourself you're talking about, honeybunch. The only self-loathing I have is that I didn't practice piano enough when I was younger, and that I have a cowlick that makes it impossible for me to wear bangs. Damn the luck. The first is my fault, the latter isn't.
You see, there's the thing: I'm perfectly willing to accept responsibility for my lack of accomplishment at the piano. It's because I was too lazy to practice. I don't blame it on "choosing" not to learn to play the piano.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[Kamika]

139. just what is wrong with working at home?

it takes alot of work to do all the dishes, clean the house, do the laundry, ironing, etc etc..

Whats wrong with dividing the work?

and seriously you should stop with the namecalling parts.. or you might get a warning or something

[kcr]

142. Thats the single stupidest distinction I have ever seen

"Why is it so difficult for you to understand that I'm not talking about stay-at-home mothers who are staying home with pre-school age children? I'm talking about women who do not return to the workforce after their kids are in school"

And it just goes to show that you know zero about the subject. Oh, wait, I am wrong -- the cast majority of the kids in this country go to a school that NEVER needs parents to help out, and it ALWAYS keeps the kids in safe and supervised after school activities until the end of the adult working day.

Wanna know why people are treating you like a blowhard? Because you are acting like one. You smear a whole group of people Because of their choices, you denigrate what they do (which, as I have already pointed out, is a damn site harder then anything you will ever do, you lazy good for nothing relying on others to raise the children that will one day take care of your tired, broken down old ass), and you don't have a fricken clue as to the reality of the situation you are talking about.

Basically, you are spouting nonsense, and now are desperately trying to justify being a jerk when you got caught at it.

It is not a terribly impressive performance.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

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[Pithlet]

148. That's hilarious.

That is the funniest thing I've read today. Simon, the honest judge. ROFL, we've been told! And that lawyer bit on the end. You're killing me.

[throwthebumsout]

154. *

*

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

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[Kamika]

152. rofl

Simon is so MEAN!!!

oh and I HATE bragging about money but since you started I am sure I win that penis contest

[kcr]

157. Of course you are

Thats why you have gone out of your way to come back and try and defend yourself. And, notice, that when you don't have an argument, you retreat to the "I don't need you, sniffle, sniffle"

As for why I am doing this: I hate people who act like jerks. They need smacking down from time to time. I don't care if I wound you or not -- I just want o make sure that everyone who reads this trhead realizes how small minded your arguments are. Mean spirited actions shouldn't go unanswered.

[Pithlet]

146. Oh, well, okay then.

I guess all of your insults towards me, and vague assumptions of my life were just wasted then, weren't they?

I don't see how that distinction makes a whole lot of difference. And you certainly didn't make that distinction clear, if it matters at all. Your posts seemed rather contemptuous of anyone you don't deem "important".

[Ysabel]

145. i'm not your honeybunch...

n/t...

[Pithlet]

118. It's that charm

that makes this person so darn engaging at parties again. I don't want to report you. Your posts are just so engaging to this simple minded house frau.

[throwthebumsout]

122. Glad I could entertain you

Perhaps you really will learn something. But...I doubt it. *smooch*

[Pithlet]

127. I highly doubt it.

At least, based on your posts in this thread.

[prolesunited]

121. Well, thanks

for hijacking my thread and preventing any meaningful discussion from taking place by attacking the posters on this thread.

Can't wait for your pithy response and creative insults. :-)

[throwthebumsout]

129. I responded when attacked

My first post here was to applaud what someone else said, as I recall. I was then attacked, and I have responded. How is that "hijacking" your thread, and why aren't you also telling the others that they "hijacked" your thread?

And besides, our posts have kept your thread at the top level of the board, where others could see it and respond. That's something to thank us for, not criticize us.

[Kamika]

132. hey

No offense or anything, I just want to say you remind me of the comic book guy from the Simpsons :D

[throwthebumsout]

137. Ahh, references to high literature

*insert eyeroll here*

[Kamika]

140. ROFL

you know he is exactly like that right?

super sarcastic.


quote comic book guy "-there is no emoticon to display how I feel"

[RoeBear]

172. Worst....quote....ever...

:)

[Pithlet]

130. I'm sorry for taking the bait.

We needed this thread. I'm glad you posted it. I'll stop having my fun now. :)

[Kamika]

125. rofl

sit-on-your-butt-all-day-on-the-internet housefrau brigade

:D

thats priceless

/Kamika - Enlisted soldier of the Internet housefrau brigade

[veganwitch]

134. and what do you do that allows you to post all afternoon?

for the record im a secretary doing what i can to work according to my pay which is not much.

[throwthebumsout]

141. Waiting for the furnace guy

An afternoon at home, waiting for the furnace guy to arrive.
I don't have a job that allows me to post in here all day.
And judging from the quality of discourse in here during the day, I see that I'm not missing much.

[veganwitch]

151. yet you keep coming back.

[throwthebumsout]

158. I'll give you that -- truly a testament to how bored I am

How do you people do this all day long?

[prolesunited]

153. Yes, you have added soooooo much

to the quality of the discourse around here by attacking and belittling everyone. :eyes:

[prolesunited]

98. Don't worry

Wouldn't sit next to you anyway. Would move on to find a person with a "real" job. But, what do I know, I took home ec. :eyes:

Unfortunately, it seems like a personal crusade to prove all the stereotypes about feminists true. As you can see, it certainly doesn't represent the majority of us.

[kcr]

78. Spoken like someone who doesn't know what they are talking about

Man, the stupidity ratio on this thread is incredible -- its approaching infinity at an exponential rate.

Just so you are aware, raising kids is harder than anything I have ever had to do. Anything, including work picking crops by hand, unloading trucks by hand, and working in a steel mill, including running a department, including trying to save a business. NOTHING I have done is harder than raising kids well. Frankly, the fact that my wife sacrificed her career to stay home with our kids demonstrates that she is tougher and better able to handle challenges than anyone in the professional world that I have ever met. I don't support her --she supports me, by doing the lion's share of the most difficult job imaginable. She was self sufficient before she met me, and could be self sufficient if I was ever removed from the picture, but she chose to take on an incredible difficult task out of love for out kids. Don't you ever try to paint her as pathetic or lazy. I fscking guarantee that she works harder than just about everyone on this thread. If you cannot see that, then you nothing about human beings, and you have a stupidly inflated value of "work" in the professional world. With few excpetions, nothing you do is as challenging or meaningful as raisie kids.

Edited to add that you should also be damn glad she is doing it -- becasue its our kids that will be providing the economic infrastructure that supports your old, tired, broken down ass when you retire.

[prolesunited]

83. That's a beautiful tribute to your wife.

Thank you for sharing that. You both are very lucky to have each other.

[Pithlet]

86. I am very lucky.

Indeed. :loveya:

[throwthebumsout]

90. I stand by everything I said

Blah, blah, blah.
I stand by everything I say. Once the kids are in school (and you conveniently ignored the fact that I said my best friend was a stay at home until the kids were in school), what is there to do? Keep house? I work full time, AND keep my house clean.

[Pithlet]

91. Why,

lounge around and eat bon bons, while watching soaps, of course! What else is there to do. After all, my brain is all rotted out.

[Kamika]

128. not only keep the house

Watch soaps!

[Pithlet]

131. Don't forget the bon bons.

That was the kicker in the deal, for me.

[kcr]

143. Blah balh indeed -- you are making a dumb distinction

Said this earlier, but it bears repeating:

And it just goes to show that you know zero about the subject. Oh, wait, I am wrong -- the cast majority of the kids in this country go to a school that NEVER needs parents to help out, and it ALWAYS keeps the kids in safe and supervised after school activities until the end of the adult working day.

Wanna know why people are treating you like a blowhard? Because you are acting like one. You smear a whole group of people Because of their choices, you denigrate what they do (which, as I have already pointed out, is a damn site harder then anything you will ever do, you lazy good for nothing relying on others to raise the children that will one day take care of your tired, broken down old ass), and you don't have a fricken clue as to the reality of the situation you are talking about.

Basically, you are spouting nonsense, and now are desperately trying to justify being a jerk when you got caught at it.

It is not a terribly impressive performance. I am sorry that your inferiority complex demands that you judge yourself only by what a boss tells you; but not everyone has that problem, and not everyone is blind the value of being around your kids full times can bring for those of us lucky enough to be able to afford it.

[blondeatlast]

167. Don't forget the way she belittled her "friend" for staying at home.

Yes, I truly want to sit next to TTBO at a party--NOT.

I wouldn't trust her with my canape'; much less my friendship.

[blondeatlast]

166. What did my mom do?

Ran for school board, won, ran for city council, won, ran a losing campaign for state legislature. After the (close) loss, she volunteered and held leadership positions in LOWV, the state Democratic Party, and Planned Parenthood.

Never got an effing dime after the city council, but she improved the lives of her contemporaries and those who came after.

I raise a son, work part-time, volunteer for the Dems and others.

BTW, nice friendship--belittling your friend on a message board. I suspect her life is far more complex than you let on.

[mopinko]

184. moms, don't you get it?

no money = no worth. moms, artists, volunteers that make the world go round. worth nada to these morons. only the almighty dollar gives you worth. right? yes, right, like limbaugh right.

[blondeatlast]

191. I'm afraid there seem to be more people that believe that than

I would have imagined.

My mom kicks ass, even though she's a bit of a Southern belle.

She couldnn't stand to be referred to as "Mrs. John ---," the Mrs. she didn't mind as long as it was followed by Mary.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

102. What's YOUR opinion?

Care to venture forth with any answers to the questions posed?

[Hammie]

104. Not really

It is not something that I spend an appreciable amount of time contemplating. In real life I've never met a single person that actually described themself as a feminist. Since I've never knowingly met one, I'd be hard pressed to have an opinion about them.

[veganwitch]

108. but you will find the time to jugde them

fantastic.

[Hammie]

183. The rude ones

+1


IBTL

[prolesunited]

111. Then why on earth

is this thread of any interest to you?

Have you learned anything?

[Hammie]

182. It was of interest

because I thought I could learn something.

As it turns out, all I learned was this is a board topic with a very low signal to noise ratio.

[prolesunited]

212. Well, that's because ONE disruptor saw to that

I wish you would go back through and read the comments from the older women who were part of the emerging feminist movement. There's a lot there if you just open your mind and remove any preconceptions and negative stereotypes.

[Logansquare]

116. I hope you get to meet someone who calls him/herself

a feminist, because every one I've met recently were extremely cool people. And my husband is one of them!

[veganwitch]

106. i find it akin to...

blacks who vote/are republican.

your actions are in direct conflict with your livelyhood.

i have no patience for that, nor should anyone.

in my senior year in college i was in a mostly freshman all-girl dorm and on my eraser board i wrote things like "if you enjoy keeping your own paycheck, thank a feminist," "if you enjoy being at this school, thank a feminist," "if you enjoy wearing pants, thank a feminist," etc. and my door often got vandalised.

eventually those gals will figure it out or they will find them in a very sad place. but im not going to shed a tear for them.

[Atlant]

193. I wish I knew how to reach people who are like this.

We *KNOW* that the truth will smack them upside the head one
day, and if they listened *NOW*, we could save them, but some
of them seem so immune to hearing it.

Atlant

[Kamika]

123. hey hammie

thanks :D

[Ysabel]

88. i'm a feminist and i love men...

i'm married to a man and i have two adult sons - they are also feminists...

[noiretextatique]

173. your post is astonishing in its ignorance

of just about everything.

[mopinko]

180. those people are not feminists

they are assholes. feminism is about choice.

[Hekate]

221. Excuse me? Always a feminist & wish I could've stayed home w/ my kids

I've always been a feminist, even before second-wave feminism came along about the time I finished high school and started college (first-wave feminism got us the vote; second-wave in the 1970s was about the rest of the journey).

It's the same reason I'm a liberal: it's an ethic and the principles I live by. It's about justice, fair play, a level playing field: basically what we were promised in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. A promise to *all* of us even if the foundational documents said "man" and meant white, property-owning, non-slave males. That was then, this is now. When the slaves were freed, we as a nation took a gigantic step toward re-imagining what "all men are created equal" meant, and we decided it meant "all human beings." Go, work hard, develop your native gifts. Behold, if Abraham Lincoln could go from a dirt-poor beginning to the White House, anyone of talent should be able to.

My original plan in life was to stay at home with my kids until they were in grade school, but harsh reality intervened. I went to work as a secretary when they were toddlers, not for a Beemer but to put a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. It tore me to bits every day. Child care was a hugely expensive and unreliable proposition; child care tax credits were a bad joke on those of us who needed it most. I blamed myself for everything: for getting a BA in history instead of something more salable, for marrying a guy who became alcoholic and abusive, for being too exhausted to be there for my kids, for not knowing whatever code it was that might make me promotable out of the clerical-support ranks. I would have loved to have gotten as far as the glass ceiling! (Life got better. I remarried. They grew up. I'm doing work I like now. But I still care about the women left behind.)

Self-blame only goes so far though, and at a certain point I figured out that almost every political/public policy issue that I cared most deeply about had been marginalized as a "women's issue." Which meant those issues could be ignored, trivialized, given a nod during election season, then pushed aside again.

So yeah, I guess that makes me mad.

And all those younger women who say, "I'm not a feminist" ... but they have the good career-track and the life so many other women struggled for them to have...but they are walking the road built for them by older women ... but they are ignorant of the millions of women still left behind, and if they bother to notice them at all, these young "not-feminists" are inclined to think it's their fault alone.

So yeah, I guess I find that level of ignorance irritating.

And those talking heads who label every woman with a brain a femi-nazi, just the way similar men in my mother's generation talked glibly about "castrating females." Mm-hmm. It's really like the infamous N-word in its intent to demean and trivialize, and it's very personal.

So yeah, I suppose hate-speech does have a way of making me see red.

However, as a woman who has half her chromosomes from her father, has two brothers, a husband, and a son, as well as friends who are male -- let me say that my anger is not at Men, but at arrogant, demeaning, abusive, assholes with way too much power over the lives of everyone else. And if I notice that most of the people like that in power happen to be men, it doesn't make me a man-hater it just means my eyes are open.

Hekate

[Logansquare]

26. There's a new feminism out there

In the 70s there was a lot of anger toward men in general. It was justified, too. I remember the kind of oppression ordinary women just learned to accept. A male car dealer wouldn't sign a car title with my mother's name, even though she provided the down-payment. My very bright sister was talked out of going to law school by every authority figure in her life; when she went to the school counselor's office, he gave her brochures on becoming a teacher or a nurse. My aunt was told pointedly that she couldn't get a raise because the "family men" in her company needed raises, and she didn't.

Things have gotten a lot better in the U.S. for women, but conditions for women in other parts of the world are still atrocious. And lest we forget, the religious right would like to push womens' reproductive rights back to the 50's, if possible. Young women (and men) today have had the good fortune of being raised by the first generation of feminists. They are focused on improving the rights of women not just in the U.S., but around the world. They want equal wages in the U.S., but they also want to stop bride burning in India, and genital mutilation in the Sudan, and the trafficking of women in Eastern Europe.

These kids make me feel proud to say "Hell yes I'm a feminist!"

[Mari333]

28. yep I remember those days

I was told not to complain when my boss sexually harassed me, I helped a large number of women being beaten by their husbands "escape" before they were killed because there were no laws protecting them, I was told over and over again that my gender meant I could never be an artist (bullshit) and on and on...

[supernova]

40. My Mother

was in college during WWII. She was one of only 7 women on this entire campus, a state university.

She was flatly told by the head of the program that she could not study chemical engineering, it just wasn't a woman's place. And she was also told if she complained he would totally deny it. So who would believe her.

She eventually finished her degree at the age of 40. She became a math teacher. While she learned to find fulfillment in that, she did wonder from time to time if she could have figured out how to overcome that roadblock.

Most things I do today, I thank my lucky stars for all of the women who have gone before me to allow me to have options in my life so I can have work that is fulfilling to me intellectually.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. I wonder where the men who always weigh in on abortion and discrmination

threads are? :shrug: Too cowardly to show their faces, I assume.

[prolesunited]

32. Not sure

but chances are the term feminazi wouldn't have too hard of a time slipping from their lips.

[Logansquare]

34. One thing I figured out early on

was that if some men don't want to understand your point of view, then don't waste time convincing them. Power is the way to get respected. For example, when I was younger, construction workers on a site near my place of work were subjecting women who walked by to constant harrassment--everything from shouting to really disgusting comments. It was difficult to avoid, since it was on the way from the nearest elevated stop. I complained to our security staff, and they took it to the site supervisor, and all the way up to the developer. The guys were told to keep their mouths shut, and keep their eyes glued on their work, like they were being paid for. Anyone who didn't comply would get handed his final paycheck. I'm sure reasoning wouldn't have worked in that case, but getting the shit scared out of them sure did.

Afterwards, one of my male coworkers kept wanting me to explain why women didn't like getting "compliments," as he called them, from men in the street. (Like "eeee-hawww!" and "sit on my face!" are pleasant to hear). I finally said "stop wasting my time," and walked away. I guess if you don't enjoy being mistreated, then you're a "man-hater."

[oldcoot]

66. The true definition of a "feminazi"

I think that the people who use the term "feminazi," use it to describe women who stand up for themselves. I am also amazed at the fact that some men, like your coworker, do not understand why receiving "compliments" by complete strangers on the streets would make women nervous and think that the women are overreacting. Yet I wonder how they would feel if a gay man made similar comments about them.

[Logansquare]

114. That's an interesting observation, because this guy was

very freaked out when a gay man made eyes at him on the street. Sheesh, talk about not getting it!

[Atlant]

42. Your question has now been answered. :( (NT)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. Yup, and by one of the 'usual suspects'

:eyes:

[Bombtrack]

39. You can take any victimhood-based worldview too far

feminazi's in my view are basically militant feminists who are intolerant towards certain biological traits that men have. And that intolerance is often based on bitterness and jealousy towards people who are less uptight and open about their feelings

[supernova]

44. Who IYHO is a feminazi?

I here this term bandied about as if it's God's own truth that such a creature exists.

Who, in your mind Bombtrack is a Feminazi?

[prolesunited]

45. Could you explain better?

I'm having trouble understanding your response.

Are you saying that feminism is based on some sort of victimhood mythology?

What biological traits do men have that women are intolerant toward?

Bitterness and jealousy? What do you mean? Who is less uptight and more open?

I really am trying to understand your perspective but you've left me with more questions than answers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. So, when did your trouble with strong, outspoken women begin?

Did the Homecoming Queen reject you in high school? Do women reject you in general?

Those of are just some of the myriad of reasons one can give for the men who use such an offensive, right-wing term.

Tell me, do you use the 'n' word too? Are Italians called guineas, Irish called micks, and Latinos called spics in your world? If not, how can you justify using such an offensive term to describe women than disagree with you?

[Mandate My Ass]

55. LOL, RationalRose

intolerance for male biological traits = not taking shit from men.

That is one of the best ones I've read on DU yet except for the guy who told me I hated both men and their penises because I posted that men only called women bitches when they couldn't control or intimidate them. :hi:

[smirkymonkey]

185. Gee, do you think his post was deleted

for saying that? I had a post deleted because I said that a (male) poster with a lot of animosity toward women "hated women and liked to aggravate them". Or do you think it's ok if a man says it to a women? Ridiculous!

I didn't even say it to him, I said it in response to another poster who was complaining about roughly the same thing. Why does calling men on their crap suddenly make one a "feminazi?" Sorry for the rant but I am a bit PO'd and feeling a little discriminated against here on DU.

[Ripley]

56. I think he may be one of those around here who use

the word "c***." And say that it is okay because we're all adults here.

Isn't it weird how trolls who attack Clinton get the boot sometimes only after 5 or 6 posts and guys who call women feminazis and c***'s are allowed to rack em up in the thousands?

Weird huh? :puke:

[iverglas]

63. weird, weird

How comparing same-sex marriage to goat-fucking has to go, but calling abortion "genocide" ... i.e. calling women who have abortions, i.e. some of us women right here at DU, perpetrators of a horrific crime against humanity ... well, that's just a matter of opinion.

.

[catzies]

67. I've been wondering that for awhile. Good threads like this make me stay

Sometimes I feel like leaving DU, and threads like this keep me here.

:yourock:

[Pithlet]

54. victimhood based?

Is that how you view feminism? Just where do you draw the line as far as taking that worldview? When are we going too far, in your opinion?

[iverglas]

60. maybe we will be not "going too far"

when we stop all that complaining about being victims.

I know, should have just sucked it up and got on with life after that guy abducted and assaulted me. Going to the police, and court, was just whining. I wasn't a victim. Nobody's a victim. Nothing bad ever happens to anybody. And certainly nobody should ever be held accountable for it, if it does.

And most definitely, it never happens to anyone *because* she's a woman. Heavens to betsy, what an appallingly ridiculous idea. Why, what happened to me could have happened to anybody. It was the merest coincidence that the 2 people it had happened to at the same man's hands before me, and the three he'd attempted to make it happen to, and dog knows how many others he'd done it to or tried to do it to but who decided not to get all whiney about it, were women. Coulda been anybody.

.

[Ysabel]

177. "going too far"...

good book that i read a long time ago - written by robin morgan...

edit - space between words...

[kcr]

58. Umm, Just so you know

"feminazi's in my view are basically militant feminists who are intolerant towards certain biological traits that men have. And that intolerance is often based on bitterness and jealousy towards people who are less uptight and open about their feelings"

This sounds very much like a man whining about feminists because he cannot understand why pinching the rear's of strange woman is not welcome and the phrase "Hey, babe, nice tits" is not a compliment.

Basically, it sounds very much like you are arguing that its okay to be a jerk, because such jerkness comes out of biology.

And if you are talking about things like porn and strip joints, for example, if you really, really, really cannot understand the huge damage those places do to women, then you are living on another planet.

Now, if I am wrong about what you are saying, then correct me -- but correct me with solid examples of what you are talking about. Because I have heard that line my entire life, and it has never meant anything other than "Man, it sucks that women don't let me treat them like dirt."

[Ripley]

69. Exactly.

"certain biological traits that men have" would be???? Penis? Neanderthal brain? What exactly does he mean? Hormones? Oh, yeah we all have some of those, but usually in civilized democracies when people act on those grunt-grunt urges inapropriately, they are punished by laws. I guess he thinks we feminists are all "uptight" prudes because we don't want to engage him in dirty talk in the Lounge.

Frankly I've seen some scary posts at DU ones that would appear to defend pedophilia. Pornography is protected by the Constitution, but I seriously wonder if the widespread use of it by men is seriously warping their sense of boundaries with women who are not their voluntary partners.

[slappypan]

59. man-haters

In my experience the worst man-haters I have encountered are anti-feminist women. They love man-bashing humor, and believe me when no men are around talk about them in the most demeaning way imaginable. Their idea of traditional womanhood just means men ought to pay for everything and they quite irrationally blame feminism for depriving them of a way to opt out of paid employment and live a life of ease.

[prolesunited]

62. I don't think these broad generalizations

on either side (hers or yours) bring us closer to any sort of understanding.

[slappypan]

68. just drawing on my experience

Have heard much nastier remarks about men from anti-feminist women than anywhere else including a self-defense course taught by radical lesbians.

[blondeatlast]

169. My experience as well--or they are deathly afraid of them

if they are not potential mates.

Scary.

[Ysabel]

93. i think that is wishful thinking...

sorry...

nobody wants some creepy man's penis...

- this thread is suddenly seemingly - or perhaps i ought to say "semenly" - all out of sinc / out of order - (arrest it...!) - my response was to Bombtrack and the "victimhood" comment...

[noonwitch]

43. Feminazi: A term that means Rush Limbaugh has a small penis

peace

[supernova]

51. LOL! Thanks for the laugh

noonwitch! :D

[throwthebumsout]

57. Only truly ignorant people are opposed to feminism

Only truly ignorant people are threatened by the idea of feminism, or think that it no longer necessary or meaningful. My experience has been that women who are not in the workforce have no clue as to the discrimination and marginalization that women still suffer every day. It's absurd to say that "feminism is dead" when we're still assaulted daily by degrading images of women, by salaries which are still unequal, by statistics which show us that the glass ceiling still exists. I've nothing but contempt for those who have a "OK, that's far enough. You've got a few Senators and a few CEOs, that's far enough." Fuck them, and fuck the mealy-mouthed women who willingly participate in their own subjugation. They drag the rest of us down with them.

[Mandate My Ass]

61. You said it!

I proudly wear the label feminist as well as liberal knowing how the right has done their best to make both pejorative terms. I know I'm fighting the good fight, so let them hurl insults.

[prolesunited]

64. Love your avatar

and sig line. :thumbsup:

[Mandate My Ass]

70. Thanks

Margaret Cho rocks. Your thread is very thought-provoking and I hope to have a more substantive answer to your initial questions when we've reclaimed this thread from the naysayers.

[pmbryant]

85. Not so sure about that

Only truly ignorant people are threatened by the idea of feminism, or think that it no longer necessary or meaningful. My experience has been that women who are not in the workforce have no clue as to the discrimination and marginalization that women still suffer every day. It's absurd to say that "feminism is dead" when we're still assaulted daily by degrading images of women, by salaries which are still unequal, by statistics which show us that the glass ceiling still exists. I've nothing but contempt for those who have a "OK, that's far enough. You've got a few Senators and a few CEOs, that's far enough." Fuck them, and fuck the mealy-mouthed women who willingly participate in their own subjugation. They drag the rest of us down with them.

I suspect that a significant number of the men who oppose feminism do so out of pure self-interest, not ignorance, in that they feel it is a threat to their privileged positions.

But whether feminism opponents are ignorant or not, I don't think this kind of language thrown at those who may not yet know all the facts is going to help win them over to the right side.

Please save the vitriol for those on the radical right who use terms like "feminazi" etc and are the real negative forces in this struggle.

Peter

[throwthebumsout]

71. Best quote that sums it up: Feminist = Not a doormat

Rebecca West: "I myself have never been able to figure out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."

[veganwitch]

80. more great quotes

"ill be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy"

"if you are feeling attacked by a feminist, its probably a counterattack"

"a man of quality is not bothered by a woman for equality"

[Pithlet]

82. Good ones!

I especially like the middle one.

[skippysmom]

74. Proud feminist here!

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?

Equal rights for women in all realms -- the workplace, the home, and in the eyes of the law. It's NOT about hating men.

Is feminism a relic of the past?

Nope. The issues may have changed slightly but the larger goal is still the same.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?

Nope. I associate it with Limbaugh and his ilk. Equating feminists with Nazis is offensive, and people who use it typically have a low opinion of women in general.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?

Not too many. It seems like an oxymoron. One thing I have noticed, though, is that a lot of feminist thought is rooted in academia and, unfortunately, sometimes tends to emphasize the trivial rather than the real issues facing women today. But I certainly wouldn't call that militant.

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?

Too many advantages to list: the vote, access to previously male-dominated professions, increased reproductive choices, the ability to engage in business transactions like taking out a mortgage, etc.

The disadvantages: None, except that we still have more to do -- like better access to affordable child care, equal pay, etc.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

Yes, most definitely. I acknowledge the fact that I wouldn't be where I am without feminism. I'm 32, and I'm sad to see that so many of my peers don't see that.

[Ysabel]

107. term / questions...

goals - freedom for all...

a relic - no...

use that term - no - it's mean-spirited / hateful...

militant feminism - hmmm - i think that it's self defense...

advantages - all - i see no disadvantages...

yes...

[Mushroom]

133. Dropped the ball

Unless the feminist leadership agressively identifies itself (or re-identifies itself) and proves that its accomplishments have benefited all, feminism will become a relic. Surfing to www.org is not enough for education and enlightenment. We need more.

Where's the serious leadership?

[prolesunited]

138. Well, I think that was the whole point of the RW

to make feminist a dirty word and discourage people from using it, just like they did with liberal.

How can we reclaim the word?

How can we gain more attention for so-called women's issues?

What are some strategies that you would recommend?

[Atlant]

194. I think our "Queer" friends have shown us the way.

Just use the word. Everywhere, all the time.

They can only sting us with it if we let them.

"Oh, so you think I'm a ``Feminist''? Well, damned straight
I am! Who do you think made it possible for you to find
employment outside the home? Rush Limbaugh? Who do you
think got you the right to vote? Jerry Falwell? Who do
you think made you safe(r) in the workplace from sexual
harrasment? Ahnold the Gropenfuhrer?

You bet your ass I'm a Feminist! And if you had any sense,
you would be too!"

You know, something gentle and mild like that. :)

Atlant

[Mushroom]

218. by reclaiming thunder

Well, the reality of it is for me as a feminist among other titles is that feminists have families just as the RWers have families, and I would think that feminists fully understand the importance of healthy family values. So why did it have to take the RW to announce their cleaning up of the airwaves, only for their typical nefarious reasons. We should have staked our claim (?) on indecency in order to explain its effects on women and their families.

[Ysabel]

170. i think leadership...

is an old burnt out patriarchal idea...

[cally]

136. Feminism is still very relevant

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?

The primary goal is to ensure equality and choice. Allow all to be able to choose their lifestyle, career, and what to do with their own body.

Is feminism a relic of the past?

I think we are reverting to anti-feminism. Unfortunately, the young women of today who proudly say they are not feminists will suffer. My own daughter once said that at 14. (I actually think she was just trying to piss me off) I think she was concerned that boys would not find her attractive. So she learned about all the things she takes for granted and why the feminist movement gave her those choices. She is a proud and outspoken feminist now. :-)

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?

I have used it once or twice. More as a way to take back the power in the same way that some women use the word bitch. I've figured how stupid I was to use it and never have again.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?

Almost none. I guess in college (late 70's) the feminist movement at Berkeley had debates whether you could be a true feminist and be in a relationship with a man.

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?

Almost everything I have is the result of feminism. I went to a college, and graduate school that wouldn't have accepted women in earlier years. My first professional job was for the Legislature and the first women hired had just happened a few years earlier. I now work in a career were women were thought that they could not understand such 'complicated' issues. I chose when to have my children because of women pushing for comprehensive birth control and that it be available. I chose to stay home with my children and not be demeaned because of it (except for a few ignorant folks). I could go on and on.



Would you describe yourself as a feminist? ABSOLUTELY

[Kamika]

144. Since my first post turned into a big drama party I have a statement here.

Ok I just want to say this..

If every kid in the US had his/her mom at home during his/her young years instead of relying on the street/school to raise the kid.. I think A LOT of Americas problems would disappear.


thanks

/Sue

[cally]

149. You can be a feminist and believe that

I chose to stay home with my children. At that time, my husband was in private industry and made much more than I did. It made sense that I stay home instead of him. Few people have the financial ability to do so. Feminism supports choices, quality childcare, paid leave after childbirth, even better maternity care.

[Maeve]

164. Childcare is a big issue

With four kids, childcare would have significantly eaten up my salary had I re-entered the job market. Instead, I provided low-cost childcare to my neighbors for a few years. Win-win for us, but not a practical solution for all.
I also volunteered at the neighborhood school--the pool of volunteers has dried up dramatically in the past twenty years since there are fewer of us at-homes. Plus, I have had time to develop my writing and entertainment skills toward my current career. But the choice was mine to make--not dictated by someone else's ideas of a "woman's role". And that is a great deal of what feminism is all about.

[mopinko]

178. pool of volunteers has dried up

always thought it was a secret goal of st ronnie & co. to get rid of as many of us trouble making loose cannon moms as possible.

[skippysmom]

200. Unfortunately

It's becoming increasingly difficult for families to have a parent (doesn't have to be a mom, right?) stay at home with their child. The economic reality is that many families -- if there are even two parents -- can't afford it. When my husband and I have children, we'll both have to work -- with our mortgage and other expenses, it's not possible for us both to work.

I don't think I'd go so far as to blame working moms for the decline of society. That seems a little extreme to me.

[noiretextatique]

220. your fantasy has never been a reality for most women in this world

who HAVE TO WORK to support their families, just like men. my mother worked ALWAYS, as did my grandmothers, and my great-grandmothers. the difference in those days was they all lived near family (or in close-knit communities), so child-care was available and affordable. my maternal great-grandmother was a seamtress who worked out of her home; my paternal great-grandmother worked on the family farm.
having said that, i absolutely support a woman's right to make her own choices about raising her children.

[Mass_Liberal]

150. I'm all for feminism

But I do use the term "feminazi" occasionally, but only to statements like, "the world would be a better place if all men were dead". Women that go to the point where feminism isn't about women's equal rights, rather it is about hating men.

[prolesunited]

155. And what is the term we should use

for men who hate women? It goes both ways, you know, and I don't condone it on either side. However, just as there are extremists in any movement, you don't judge or condemn an entire movement based on the over-the-top rantings of a few.

[Logansquare]

161. Yes, the word "feminazi" is a dismissal of all feminism

It was coined by the right, and it goes along with exaggerated and sometimes false stories about PC run amok. It's intended to create a negative meme against feminism. Feminism is pro-woman NOT anti-man. Our fathers were men, our sons will be men, (some of) our lovers are men. You can't be pro-woman and anti-man--its not a viable way of existing.

[Mass_Liberal]

186. I don't condemn feminism at all

I'm all for it. I'm against (for lack of a better term) anti-men feminism.

[Logansquare]

205. Men can be allies, so being "anti-man" is counterproductive

However, different people seem to interpret "anti-man" in different ways. Some men become personally very defensive when they are called on sexism. Like the street harrassment example I used earlier. The basic attitude was "well, *I* enjoy it, so if you don't you must be crazy!"

It reminds me of a relative of mine who told racist jokes and then complained when a black coworker filed a complaint against him. But "it was just a joke!" *He* thought it was funny, and enjoyed it--hey it was all in good fun.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Logansquare]

160. This is a great thread, so let's try to stop the flaming

They locked it for a few minutes and decided to unlock again.

[Kamika]

165. I agree

topic.


Damn he got banned.. wish he would just have been warned and knew to calm down.

[wasp in a wig]

168. sexism is the issue

So why is it confined to women alone with the term 'feminism'? Sexism works both ways, and can do just as much damage anyone, regardless of gender.

It seems that the people labeling others as 'feminazis' are upset because they feel that one gender is being viewed as the eternal oppressor and the other the eternal victim.

I think if you really want to change things, you need to drop the labels/boundaries and realise that all of society needs healing.

[prolesunited]

171. Sexism works both ways?

Labeling someone a "feminazi" is a perfectly acceptable reaction?

How does sexism work both ways when women aren't the ones holding the power?

I certainly don't claim any sort of "victimhood" and I bet most of the women on this thread don't either. In fact, asserting one's rights is refusing to be a victim.

And, sorry, there is WAY TOO MUCH work that remains to be done in regards to women's issues. I am not ready to sit down, shut up and sing kumbaya.

[noiretextatique]

175. we can't seem to talk about "isms" honestly

if it's race...it's EVERYONE is racist. the discussion almost always focused on definitions of the WORD, vs. this country's history and current reality. if it's gender...pretty much the same thing. words like "victim" are thrown around like confetti...and pithy "we are one" statements inevitably pop up...the kumbaya syndrome, indeed.
and as i ponder all of this, i can't help but know that THIS very dynamic is a part of the reason why we still have such a long way to go.

[wasp in a wig]

176. no wonder this is such a heated discussion

if whenever someone interjects an opinion, they're met with such snooty condescension.

It couldn't possibly be that you misunderstood what I was saying, or that I wasn't clear enough, oh no.

I'm sorry if expressing that everyone in society suffers when sexism is present, and that it has negative effects on both genders - especially when it comes to those who don't fit assigned gender roles.

But, go ahead; make assumptions and be elitist. There's no need for me to participate in the conversation if my words are just going to be immediately dismissed. I only tried to address the problem as a whole.

[Logansquare]

203. Well, you expressed yourself much better in this post

Yes, I agree that the whole society suffers in the presence of sexism.

[noiretextatique]

207. no...i didn't misunderstand what you were saying

inequality BENEFITS some people, so "everyone" doesn't suffer.
i agree that our society as a whole suffers, and i agree that healing needs to take place.
what i don't agree with is watering down issues to make them more palatable when some people are still suffering from particular brands of discrimination.
sorry you took this so personally...but what i was addressing was a trend i've seen over the past 20+ years: the RW backlash to the civil rights and women's equality movements.
a part of that backlash, imho, is the notion that "everyone suffers," which is a way to deny the continued suffering of particular groups.
a friend and i were talking last night about this very thing. she asked me: how is it possible that we have gone from jim crow to reverse discrimination in 40+ years, when the other situation existed for 450+ years?
i thought it was an interesting question...one that addresses the "everyone suffers" notion quite nicely.

[Nikia]

198. Yes, in some ways

Patriarchy is the enemy. Gender straitifcation hurts both men and women. I do think that male gender freedom does need to be addressed. I think that much of this is usually enforced by other men, but could be also enforced by potential female sexual partners as well as pervasive media stereotypes. Some examples of this are little boys playing with dolls, boys wanting to participate in dance classes, especially ballet, boys who don't like sports, young men who want to be be nurses or other traditionally female occupations, and men who stay at home with their children or make significantly less money than their wives. I have attempted to have honest discussions on this with my husband and male friends. They express pressure not to cry in public or in the company of all but their closest friends and family, express hurt as anger, and always appear strong. In this, they are victims of patriarchy too.
I suppose as a female, it is easier to identify with and support feminist goals on the female side. Women have identified and supported goals of feminism. There are more easily identifiable political and social issues.
I don't know if many men are willing to publically say that patriarchy oppresses them too. Most male oppression is by purely societal attitudes manily imposed on them by other men. I don't think that this needs to be a purely male movement but unless men are willing to organize in substantial numbers against this, I don't know how feminism can support the male aspect of sexism as much as it supports the female aspect of it.

[noiretextatique]

174. my answers to your questions

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?
i'm not sure what the goals of the entire movement are, but i stiil see a need for the consciousness-raising aspects of the movement...now perhaps more than ever.
i see a real difference between the women i know who have been exposed to feminism (in postive ways) and those who have not.

Is feminism a relic of the past?
hardly...as i said, i see the need growing.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?
never...i think it was supernova who said it means rush limbaugh has a really, really, really small penis.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?
very little, actually. there were some women's collectives started in the 70's that i had some exposure to, but all in all, i think most women i know are still incredibly, and voluntarily coventional.
i am rather radical myself, so i think i have a different gauge for militancy than many do. i have read things that i'm sure many would consider militant, but i think the response to an entrenched problem should be "militant." to paraphrase jill nelson: "nice girls don't finish last: they don't finish AT ALL."


What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?
advantages: i think the primary advantage has been what i call consciouness raising...i think the same is true of the black power movement. from individual to collective...these movements (and others) truly transformed our society.
disadvantages: we were unprepared for the backlash.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hi:

[Katha]

179. New wave feminist here.

I am a proud feminist. I'm the daughter of two feminists -- my father included -- he founded the first chapter of Men Against Rape in Los Angeles in the early 1970s.

By describing myself as a feminist, I say that I believe that women and men are intrinsically equal and should be given equal opportunities. (This isn't to say that men and women are the same biologically; I think there are definite differences.) I don't hate men. I don't hate any one group of people (even Republicans!)

Feminism is more important now than ever, especially now that people seem to think it unnecessary. We run the risk of losing perspective on woman's position in society if we marginalize feminism's history -- and its future.

[maxanne]

181. fascinating discussion

prolesunited. Thanks for starting it. :hi:

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?

Social, political, and economic equality for women.

Is feminism a relic of the past?

No. We don't yet have social, political, or economic equality.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?

I have made joking references to "reclaiming my inner feminazi." I wouldn't choose to do so now. The term sums up a certain mindset that some fearful men have about female equality. They are loathe to give up any of their power - and do the best they can to maintain the status quo. They are threatened by women achieving parity. They often don't understand that their anger is misplaced - they should be angry with the rich ruling class - not women. We aren't the reason there isn't enough to go around.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?

I'm not exactly sure what militant feminism consists of. In my little redneck burg, I'm considered a militant feminist - mostly because I publicly admit to being a feminist, and I'm not afraid to speak out against inequality. I haven't seen any militant feminism in action in NH - I can assure you of that!

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?

Well, from a historical perspective - women are no longer considered the property of fathers, brothers, or husbands. Women can own property and money, which they could not do in the 1800's. Women have the right to vote. Women own cars, homes, and businesses. Women have their own checkbooks and credit cards.

We've also been able to do something about domestic violence. We've poked some holes in the glass ceiling. We can work outside the home. We are doctors, plumbers, engineers, chefs, firefighters, cops, and members of the armed forces. We are sometimes wives and mothers. We have more freedom of choice than ever before. I grew up hearing I couldn't do certain things because I was a girl. I couldn't take wood shop - I had to take home ec, because I was a girl. I had to play field hockey because I was a girl. I couldn't take Latin because I was a girl. Girls today don't get the same messages. I see that as a victory for feminism.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

LOUD AND PROUD


I find it terribly disturbing that young women know so little about the suffragettes, who were our early feminists. Elizabeth Cady Stanton is off the radar of most high school history books. She was truly a visionary. I wish more young women would study that period in history.

The price of equality is eternal vigilence.

[prolesunited]

187. You're welcome!

Except for getting sidetracked a bit, I thought it was a wonderful discussion as well. I really do sense there is a great divide between the younger and older generations, which you summed up quite succinctly.

My hope is we all learned something from this thread. I know I did.

Thanks to all who participated! This is what keeps me at DU.

[populistmom]

188. I am a feminist

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?
Feminism to me seeks to give women choices. Feminism must support equality, yes, but I think feminism must also be there to support women at times that they may have needs that may be different simply because they are women (like better paid maternity leave like every other damned developed nation on the planet).

Is feminism a relic of the past?
I think the term has been hijacked by the right wing in order to marginalize the goals that feminists are seeking.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?
No, it's an offensive made-up term used to confuse simple-minded people into thinking feminism seeks to somehow hurt or control others in a negative way.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?
There are of course those such as Andrea Dworkin who have claimed all heterosexual sex is inherently rape. That's a bit extreme. There are those who see motherhood and those who are mothers as somehow less-than or beneath them as feminists. Obviously, I don't fit in either of these catagories.

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective?
I think it has given men excuses for not treating women well sometimes. Men can expect women to be this all-encompassing everything sometimes because that's what they are told we should be. Kind of the whole superwoman complex thing. Superwomen don't need to take breaks or have emotional needs sometimes. Superwomen are productive robots.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
I've always considered myself one even at times in my life where I have been less than strong. It means something. I have found too sometimes the biggest saboteurs of women are other women. Women who make different choices than their 'sisters' often make judgments about them that may or may not be true. I grew up seeing my father as much more of a feminist than my mother.

Being a feminist to me means having the freedom to be strong when I have to be, but I don't always WANT to have to be strong at all times. Sometimes, I'd like to be able to let my guard down. I like being warm and nurturing as well and I hope to be a feminist where I am free to do that as well. Actually, I am one of those despite whatever labels someone else chooses to put upon me.

[Vittorio]

189. I don't know much about feminism...

but here goes:

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?
A. from what I have witnessed here on my campus and around the country, to me, it seems it's about man-hating women who do nothing but bash and hate men.

Is feminism a relic of the past?
I have no idea.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?
I have used the term and I think it was appropriate at the time.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
Well...I'm about equal rights for all...from males to females, white and black. But not in a hateful manner as some people do...

[maxanne]

190. since you're on a campus

Vittorio - it's a great opportunity for you to do a little research. I recommend starting with the suffragettes in the 1800's. Read what women's lives were like - and maybe you'll develop a little understanding. Try thinking about what it would be like to be a female. Think about the stupid sexist comments you hear guys making, and imagine what it would be like to be talked about that way. Listen to the guys on the playing field and how they talk about women. Imagine what it would be like to be the topic of those discussions.

Read up on rape and violence against women. Look at the numbers of women in the Senate and Congress. Examine the statistics in homeless shelters. The bulk of the shelter population these days are women with children. Look at how women are represented in hip hop videos, reduced to being nearly naked, shaking their asses. Bitches and ho's.
Imagine walking into a convenience store with your preteen daughter, and a bunch of guys drooling over a Hustler magazine start leering at your 13 year old daughter.

Imagine growing up and being taught by your religion that you, a woman, are a lesser being. That's what all major religions teach.

Imagine being a member in a society that judges you solely on the basis of your appearence. Life is one long beauty contest for women. Imagine walking down the street while a group of guys nearby feel compelled to judge your tits and your ass loudly to all passers by.
Imagine how that might make you feel.

Imagine being raped while passed out at a frat party. Imagine having to fear a drink with a date rape drug in it.

Vittorio - try walking in a pair of high heels.

Most of all - try thinking about what it would be like to be a woman. Maybe, if you can really be honest, and not defensive, you'll begin to understand why some women are angry.

[Vittorio]

199. My thoughts:

I want to comment on the quote you have here: "Look at how women are represented in hip hop videos, reduced to being nearly naked, shaking their asses. Bitches and ho's." You know, if the women in those videos had objections to "shaking their asses" and being "nearly naked," they wouldn't be in there making that music video, would they? No one is forcing these women to do that kind of stuff, right?

As for the "being a member in a society that judges you solely on the basis of your appearence," what do you think women do about men? Yep. They judge men on the basis of their appearance. The issue goes both ways. You can't deny that.

As for the comments guys make on the field about women...we're men. It's only natural for us to talk about women. Most of the things we say aren't all that bad...trust me. And what do you conisder to be "sexist comments?" Calling a woman a "chick"? A "babe"? Well...if those are to be sexist, then how about women calling men "hunks," "nice piece of meat," "pretty boys," or whatever. Isn't that sexist too? I think sexism works both ways.

As for the rape thing, yes, I do think that there should be tougher penalties for guys who rape women. I don't understand why the lawmakers don't get tougher on that. I've been known to tell my female friends that if they or anyone they know were to have been raped to give me a call and I'd beat the living shit out of the rapist. I'm serious. I don't put up with that kind of shit. Some woman was raped on my campus last year, and the cops were lucky to get to the guy before me. I would've beat his ass in...or worse.

As for religion, I'm a practicing Christian (Lutheran to be exact). Never once have I been taught that women are lesser beings than men. Maybe some messed up churches do, but not mine. Maybe it's those Republican-based hateful ones. :shrug:

To end this lengthy discussion, I'd like to say that sexism is occuring in our society. True, women are making less in the work force. There are a higher amount of men in positions of power than there are females. Do I think something should be done about it? Absolutely, but not in a hateful manner towards people of the opposite sex. After all, it's not entirely a man's fault that this is happening. It's society as a whole that's allowing it.

On a final thought...if a few of these women have the problems with the issues that you have stated above, then why aren't ALL women expressing problems about it?

[Logansquare]

201. Hmm...maybe they don't think you are sympathetic?

"On a final thought...if a few of these women have the problems with the issues that you have stated above, then why aren't ALL women expressing problems about it?"

If I knew you, I probably wouldn't express my problems with sexism to you, because it would be a waste of my time. And I don't need to raise my blood pressure needlessly.

[Vittorio]

208. Oh yes, wasting your time.

Did you not read my post?

And that question I have stated is a great thought-provoking question with a point.

[Ripley]

204. So much there to comment on.

But I will limit it to two:

1. While you acknowledge that sexism is occuring in our society, you go on to imply that feminists who want change are doing it in a "hateful" manner. How is Hillary or Planned Parenthood, or any woman trying to make change hateful towards men? And then you say it's society not just man's fault. But who really control's American society? Do you think women control it? Yes, they participate and have made great strides up the ladders in all levels of society. But who are the Editors, Publishers, CEO's, President's, Senators, Managers, Captains, Priests, leaders in any and every field in America? Men control the message in all mainstream forms of information where most of society forms it's opinions.

2. You ask why all women don't express problems with sexism in music videos or whatever. Let me ask you then, why don't all men express a problem with corporate embezellment, or adultery or tax cheating, or any other societal ill? You seem to think because some women like getting paid big bucks to show their T&A (for the short period in their life they can do that) that all women must think it's okay and that it must be good for the advancement of women's position in our society. I would ask you to substitute blacks in this situation. Do you think all black Americans think that gangsta rap advances the position and opportunities for blacks in America? There are many forces at work that lead women into doing things that can be considered to be against their own self-interest. I'm not for censoring what kind of job they can get and how they dress. But if you think that a degrading act is OK, just because a woman volunteered to do it, then you must not have any boundaries. I've heard women also copulate with animals on internet sites. So it's okay, can't be that bad...we feminists should just "get over it?"

Again, why does it have to be ALL women against some forms of sexism for it to be even considered sexism?

[Vittorio]

206. What can you do?

A woman volunteers herself to those music videos...she must like doing that kind of work. If it were such a big problem, like I said before, would they decide to NOT do the music video? I would think so. Is there something I'm missing here? Again, no one is forcing these women to do those kinds of behaviors that you see in music videos. NO ONE is. Copulating with animals is totally a different subject...I don't know how it relates to this one. Everyone knows copulation with animals is wrong. If a woman is flaunting what she has in music videos, and shows no kinds of problems doing it whatsoever, then why isn't it right? To answer the other question, I think, as well as most other people with a half a brain, that corporate embezellment, adultery, tax cheating, and all that other stuff is wrong. Plain and simple.

I should have been a little more clearer on feminisists. I should have said a few of them are hateful towards men, not all of them.

[Maeve]

210. "she must like doing that kind of work"

Or maybe, it's the only work she can find, or even the best-paying work she can find. I knew a very nice lady who worked as a stripper once--not her first choice but the only job she could find that paid well enough to support her kids.
Do you also suppose women end up as prostitutes because they "like doing that kind of work"? No, sometimes the choices are forced in ways that an outsider is blind to.

[Vittorio]

213. So...

how can it be that the only work the woman in the music video can find, is in fact, in a music video??? How many people do you know that happen to stumble into such a job? I'm bettin' none. You just don't stumble onto a job like that. You look for it and want it in order to get it.

[Ripley]

214. Exactly. That's what I meant by "many forces."

Economic opportunity is the core of it all. Now let's see which jobs are available to the majority of women and which ones do they perform? The lowest paying in our society.

Now let's see which jobs are the highest paying to women (outside of the very minuscule number who make it to Provost or Oprah status)...stripping, posing for pornography, being "extras" in music videos, prostitution. Selling her body.

This is not rocket science.

[Vittorio]

216. Um...

I'd like to see where you think that the only high-paying jobs women get is in those kinds of jobs.

I know plenty of women who work the same jobs as men and make as much. My grandma works in a male-dominated business and she makes the SAME amount as the men do.

[Pithlet]

219. Your focus is too narrow.

Because they aren't the only high paying jobs, it's okay. Because your grandma gets equal pay in a male-dominated business, then there's no problem.

Because there is a market for such T&A jobs, and because they pay well enough that, for some, it is their only hope of making decent money, then there is indeed a force at work. If these same women had more opportunities for better paying jobs that did not require them to dance nearly naked, they might choose those jobs instead. Not all, of them, of course. Some enjoy that type of work, and that's okay. But I do think some are pressured into it for the money. And you can't deny that the forces behind that pressure is sexist in nature.

[maxanne]

222. my thoughts for you

I want to comment on the quote you have here: "Look at how women are represented in hip hop videos, reduced to being nearly naked, shaking their asses. Bitches and ho's." You know, if the women in those videos had objections to "shaking their asses" and being "nearly naked," they wouldn't be in there making that music video, would they? No one is forcing these women to do that kind of stuff, right?

Ah, yes, that tired old argument. The best paying jobs available for women are fashion model and prostitute. That sends a message, doesn't it? No one forces them? Why aren't men showing more respect for them?
I guarantee it's not women producing the videos. So, why don't men treat these women with more respect?

As for the "being a member in a society that judges you solely on the basis of your appearence," what do you think women do about men? Yep. They judge men on the basis of their appearance. The issue goes both ways. You can't deny that.

I can't, huh. :eyes: When was the last time a group of women stood on a street corner watching you walk by, making obscene noises and remarks about your butt or your crotch? Sure women look at how men look, but go to a mall and look at couples someday. The sorriest looking men are accompanied by wives. Women are much more forgiving of male appearence flaws then men are of women's.

As for the comments guys make on the field about women...we're men. It's only natural for us to talk about women. Most of the things we say aren't all that bad...trust me.

Sorry - I don't trust you. I know the kind of stuff guys say. They refer to losers as pussies and cunts. Your genitals don't have the same demeaning slang terms for losers. Even calling someone a prick is better than being called a pussy. Do boys growing up being told they hit like a girl or called a pussy grow up to respect women? I don't think so.

As for the rape thing, yes, I do think that there should be tougher penalties for guys who rape women. I don't understand why the lawmakers don't get tougher on that.

Ask yourself who the lawmakers are. Then ask yourself who the rapists are. You'll figure it out in no time.

As for religion, I'm a practicing Christian (Lutheran to be exact). Never once have I been taught that women are lesser beings than men. Maybe some messed up churches do, but not mine. Maybe it's those Republican-based hateful ones.

I said religion, not church. The Bible makes it very clear that females are inferior, as do the books of all major religions. Orthodox Jews pray their thanks every morning for not being born women. Adam and Eve - not a story of equality. The sexism starts right at the beginning.

To end this lengthy discussion, I'd like to say that sexism is occuring in our society. True, women are making less in the work force. There are a higher amount of men in positions of power than there are females. Do I think something should be done about it? Absolutely, but not in a hateful manner towards people of the opposite sex. After all, it's not entirely a man's fault that this is happening. It's society as a whole that's allowing it.


It seems to me that even talking about sexism is hateful, Vittorio. What exactly is hateful? Did slaves have a right to be angry at the masters who mistreated them? Women have a right to be angry at the ruling gender. It's not man's fault this is happening? Son of a gun, I must have missed all the parades and demonstrations where huge crowds of men took to the street demanding women's equality.

On a final thought...if a few of these women have the problems with the issues that you have stated above, then why aren't ALL women expressing problems about it?

So concerns are not valid unless all women agree on them? Would we need a 100% consensus, or would 95% do? Do all men agree on every issue?

[Pithlet]

224. Someone should tell us

how we're supposed to react.

"Um, I know you've been discriminated against in the past, and many of those sexist and discriminatory attitudes persist today, but could you try not to be so upset about it?" WTF?

It's just a ridiculous notion that we're too angry, or militant about it. So hateful about such a little ol' thing like sexism and discrimination. Best not to talk about it in polite company. Just keep quite, and be nice about it, and maybe someday we'll get equality, if we're pretty about it. :puke:

[maxanne]

225. yes, Pithlet

the Patient Griselda approach to equality. :eyes:

If we sit in the corner like good girls, and dress up pretty, maybe they'll throw a crumb or two our way.

[Nikia]

192. I am a feminist

Feminism is about full opportunities for everyone regardless of gender. It is is often also about valuing things that are traditionally considered "feminine". I first noticed a divide in college though between the focus of some feminists. In a gender focused class that I took one of my female classmates was rather impressed with my discussion and class and we hung out along with a few of her feminist friends. During our discussion one of them said, "but you participate in a competitive sport. Feminists should not support and participate in men's ways of doing things. Women are about cooperation, not competition." That still has left me a bit confused about the appropriate focus.
Feminism is definietly not a relic of the past. There are now laws promoting the equality of women but attitudes are slow in catching up with the law. I remember being very good at math as a child and being told that girls are not good at math and thinking how stupid that was. Although being a girly girl did not matter too much to me, I did sometimes wonder if something was wrong with me since I was very good at math and not a good converstaionalist (which girls are suppose to good at). Both boys and girls, men and women should be free to be who they are without these negative sentiments thrown at them. While there may be some general differences, no boy should be discouraged from playing with dolls if he so chooses and no girl should be discouraged from playing with toy cars even if most of their gender prefers to play with traditionally more gender appropriate toys. As far as equal opportunities in education and the workplace, some places are more enlightened than others and there may be little gender discrimination. I experienced very little personal discrimination from my professors in college. Now I live in a rural, more conservative environment where women only make 60 cents on the dollar of men's wages and sexism is alive and well. In general though, it is still difficult for women to be promoted to high positions because a woman is judged by her gender and for example, may be judged as cold because she is not as friendly as other women but at a level appropriate for a man or too emotional and personal if she is as friendly as they think a woman should be. In summary, we have a long way to go as far as attitudes.
I only jokingly use "feminazi" to describe myself to friends who are not feminists, just as a working class rural man might jokingly refer to himslef as a "redneck". Some might say that does more harm than good, but it is more my way of asserting "You know, I am a woman and feminist too so don't sterotype."
As far as militant feminism, it depends on what you mean. There are some women who would prefer a gynoarchy and are advocating that.
I think that feminism is an overall good thing. Some people mean different things by it though. I don't think that it would be bad to include men in it too, patriarchy limits men too. Stay at home dads or even men who make significantly less than their wives often feel a lot of social pressure, not to mention men that might prefer "feminine" occupations or activities.
I am a feminist. I am for the full equality of men and women and freedom of all people to pursue all human activities and exhibit all personality traits regardlss of gender.

[buddhamama]

195. good topic for discussion

the primary goal of feminism is equality of the sexes.
feminism is not a relic of the past, because inequality still exists, so the struggle continues.
i've never used the term feminazi in derogatory manner.
the question about militant feminism is a tough one.
here's my answer to 'militant' feminists
i am me, you are you, and regardless of our common goal, i will not be you, think like you and agree with you all the time. above all i am an individualist.
the only disadvantage to feminism is the my statement above. group think is not acceptable, to me at least.
i am a Proud Feminist.

[Ripley]

196. HOLY CRAP!

Did this thread degenerate or what since yesterday????

It doesn't surprise me that a great thread originally posted was hijacked by people to insult women in one way or another, but it is quite disturbing that those people are women, not men. Oh, wait, I don't know that do I? People can lie on their little profiles can't they?

The saddest part about hearing working "women" flame so much hatred toward women who don't work (for whatever reason) is just more evidence of how this country has traveled backwards in such a short period of time. If young women think we have already achieved equal status with men and we don't "need" feminist viewpoints anymore what do they really mean? They have acquired the attributes of the old male business world...snide, sexist, condescending towards women and yes, misogynistic. Wow, how enlightened.

I remember being stressed out in the auto manufacturing world (very male dominated) and felt some resentment towards non-working women. Just because I was 1) young, 2) very tired of fighting the sexism alone all day and 3) ignorant. When I grew up and met some of those women I realized everyone has a unique situation and it probably changes as they age. I have been in situations from A to Z already in my life. You will too. It is nothing but a sign of immaturity to spew hate at women because they don't work outside the home. Or then again, it is a very scary sign indeed of the power of the Conservative/Fundamentalist propaganda machine that has been running full tilt since the 1970's.

[prolesunited]

209. Actually, it was only one

poster who was subsequently tombstoned. If you read carefully, the rest of us agreed that feminism was about making our own choices and having all options available to us, whether that be as a homemaker or a CEO.

[kayell]

197. Proud to be a feminist

What do you see as the primary goals of feminism?
Equality, both economic and social - this covers a LOT of territory, might take a couple of pages itself. One list I've found that covers much of what I think of is here: http://www.angelfire.com/id/avy/2femgoals.html
Human rights
Re-evaluation of societal priorities. Example: traditionally masculine values about competition vs traditionally feminine values of cooperation

Is feminism a relic of the past?
No, why would it be? I'm not even sure it will be if we achieve the primary goals of economic and social equality. I see feminism as a idea that will continue to evolve.

Would you ever use the term "feminazi"? What does that mean to you?
Of course not. It means that the user of the term is a misogynistic idiot IMO.

What examples of "militant feminism" have you seen?
The suffragettes were great examples of militant feminism in a very positive sense. If it were not for these brave women, willing to put it all on the line, women still wouldn't have the vote, and would still be essentially property of their husbands. Militant feminists have also made possible the whole fight for gender and sexual identity rights. Women willing to protest visibly and speak out strongly are my heros. note: and men also.

What have been the advantages disadvantages of feminism from your perspective? It's all been advantageous, and I think this is true for virtually everyone, male or female. People who have not experienced advantages and improvements in their lives from what feminism has brought, are in that situation only if the advantages in their life can only be achieved through someone elses disempowerment.
No disadvantages other than dealing with misogynistic idiots. Cancel that disadvantage - would have had to deal with even more without the feminist movement.

Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
Yes, and as a humanist in the sense of standing for human equality. I don't see this only as a struggle for improving the lives of women, but of all people. Freeing people from gender stereotypes is of benefit to all. I am also proud that both my brothers consider themselves feminists.

[TahitiNut]

211. Sexism in language reflects sexism in society

I regard myself as a (small 'h') humanist, which includes being a feminist. I don't think of "stay-at-home moms" (the insidious role-stereotyping of sexism) but instead think of caregivers, often treated as lepers in our mythical meritocracy. I will not succumb to the notion that unpaid equates to unvalued, realizing that our economic system is seriously flawed and in almost no way reflects morality, ethics, or our highest values.

Our language infects our thoughts, infecting us with a plague of false paradigms. The very language we use on this message board reflects, to some extent, the degree to which our lingusitic autoimmune systems are compromised.

[Ellen Forradalom]

215. Back to basics

"Gentlemen, this is a football..." -- Vince Lombardi

Like Vince, I always return to the basics: Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. When you examine different aspects of our culture using that idea, you can see how far we have to go. There's the front page and there's the women's section. There's the protoganist and then there's the love interest. He's assertive; she's a bitch. The list goes on.

Feminism is by no means a relic of the past. Sexism has come roaring back with a vengeance. But the concerns of today are different. Feminists today have to answer the right-wing fifties apologists and handwringing Cassandras who say that feminism has somehow failed even though these same women benefit endlessly from it.

Somewhere in the 70s feminist became conflated with career/working woman. This causes endless confusion and is very irritating.

[Vladimir]

217. LOL

hahahaha... so fucking true. Women? People? Where's my gun?

V