Places of worship intrude on voting's sacred privacy

[SaddenedDem]

By FRIDA GHITIS

My new polling place stands inside the American Civil Liberties Union offices.

It offers plenty of convenient parking. From my car, I walk a few short steps along a corridor covered with posters -- one attacking Mel Gibson's movie about Jesus, another saying the government should take better care of the elderly. Others proclaim the virtues of civil liberties and invite me to join the organization. The corridor ends in a large hall where I cast my ballot, unaffected by any of the propaganda I just read.

Just kidding.

snip....

My description of a walk down an imaginary ACLU office is not a total illusion. The reality is that the moment I stepped into the church building I faced a sign-up sheet to join the church group on a trip to watch Gibson's controversial "The Passion of the Christ." Bible passages also greeted me and other voters, reminding us that Jesus loves us. This we know, because our polling place told us so.

snip....

I wonder also how my church-going neighbors would have felt about voting in a mosque, forced to walk the gantlet of Allah hu-Akbar signs along the way to the brand new voting machines. Or, maybe they could have voted in a synagogue. Come to think of it, just a few blocks from the First Christian Church stands the Congregation Beth Haverim. That's the city's gay synagogue. There, Christian voters might have had the opportunity to hear all the latest on gay marriage. An unforgettable experience, I'm sure.

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0304a/03ghitis.html

[DarkPhenyx]

1. I vote in a year round school.

Last year I voted under a tree because the fire alarm was going off when I got there.

[bushisanidiot]

2. I'm surprised they have polling places in churces. That Doesn't seem right

to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Churches and fire halls

Are usually some of the largest locations available. Churches willingly allow themselves to be part of this important activity.

[hexola]

11. Why wouldn't they "allow" it

It perhaps gives their side tremendous advantage...

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. It's no advantage

And, to be honest, churches and synagogues don't often HAVE a side. Liberal churches in the black community are on the Democratic side. Conservative churches typically on the Republican side. Many/most/all have members who vote both sides.

It's simply a place to vote.

[bushisanidiot]

18. It's not just a place to vote. They are trying to sell their message to

the voters.. no one said it was a political message.. but we should be able to go and vote without someone trying to recruit us to their religion.

seperation of church and state anyone??

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. So, the U.S. should just build about 100,000 or more halls

Just so we can vote?

Instead of complaining, maybe folks would THANK churches for providing this service.

[bushisanidiot]

33. Uh, school gymnasiums?? duh.

but I guess people who want to vote for pussyboy bush wouldn't like that, eh?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Gyms, fire halls, etc.

Are all used in my experience. However, we need lots and lots of polling places. There aren't enough gyms to do it. Also, many are already reserved for other uses.

Next suggestion.

[bushisanidiot]

38. How About President Pussyboy's Pig Farm?

or do you think the voters might object to AWOL and Cheney blowing eachother right in front of them? hmm?

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Now that was helpful

Thanks for that.

[bushisanidiot]

43. Anytime!! Join Me In Supporting Senator Kerry for President, Will You?

AWOL MUST be defeated for the sake of our great nation!

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Somehow

I think Kerry could have done without that endo.

[LiberalFighter]

98. They can't have it reserved 2 times a year for voting?

Where best to start kids out learning about the election process?

They don't have to be held in the gymnasiums. In the schools where we had elections they were held in the hallways or the lobby.

[shimmergal]

127. School gymnasiums seem to work OK here in NV.

I was a poll worker at the last two elections and there was plenty of space, even at the 5:30 to 8:00 PM time when the most voters came.

However, we have early voting too, and for it they use sites in grocery supermarkets (no WalMarts!) and in public libraries. All pretty neutral places as far as any political or religious messages getting through.

[hexola]

42. At least you admit it! - you want Democracy to be beholden to the Church.

At least you are honest...

Instead of complaining, maybe folks would THANK churches for providing this service.

Christ died so I can vote? Please...

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. No, I expect common courtesy and am constantly disappointed

People owe nothing to the churches for doing this. It is a public service. Most folks say, "Thank you" when others do them a nice service. But it is not required.

[Az]

47. It would be better if

people said thank you for the offer but we cannot accept. It is understood that the offer is made in good faith. But it is an offer that probably should be turned down. There is just too much baggage. Government and Religion are far to entwined as it is.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Then where do we hold voting?

There are probably thousands of polling places and millions of voters that would be left out in the cold as a result.

[hexola]

48. Is your Pastor a Public Servant?

People owe nothing to the churches for doing this.

Then why did you suggest they did in post #27?

It is a public service.

"Public Service" has been typically the purpose/role of the government, not churches.

Do you consider your Pastor to be "Public Servant?"

Most folks say, "Thank you" when others do them a nice service.

Food drives, Homeless outreach, Youth counseling, Spiritual and moral guidence...THANK YOU!!!

Hosting Democracy...NO THANK YOU!

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. The whole common courtesy thing seems to be lost here

I suggest people say thanks because that is what human beings do when others do nice things for them.

Everything churches do is a public service. Sorry you don't think so.

[hexola]

53. Either you want a clear line between Gov't and Religion...

...or you don't...you obviously don't.

I do.

I think it will make both stronger...

To simplify this a just matter of "being nice"...is intellectually dishonest...you KNOW there is more to it than just being nice.

I think government WEAKENS faith...Religion should be trying to avoid becoming entangled with government. The more we are controlled by laws...the less we rely on our morality...more laws=less morals.

Pehaps the government involvement helps validate your faith?

Everything churches do is a public service...

Sweet - molesting children = public service...jeez "Thank YOU"

Common Courtesy - not lost...just irrelevant!!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Many of us are religious

A clear line is not always possible. The world ain't always black and white. Mostly, it's pretty gray.

No, there is no more to it than being nice. If we decide, as a nation, as states or even as counties, to erect monuments to expense and futility and not use churches as polling places, so be it. Either way, the churches have saved society a great deal of hassle and expense up till now. We should thank them for it.

As for the last, churches don't molest children, some number of priests and volunteers do. Just like politicians, athletes, web techies, graphic designers and every other profession.

Molestors are drawn to fields that work with kids and they are more prominent there in ALL such fields of endeavor. Like Willy Sutton said about money, they go where it is.

[LiberalFighter]

99. It only appears that the churches saved us a hassle and expense.

When in reality they now expect the government to be beholden to them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

111. No they don't

They simply ARE part of the community. It's a fact many here don't understand or accept.

[Hammie]

62. No shit

A private entity provides a public service and people here get all up in arms because it happens to be a church. Personally, I've never been anything but grateful to those who make their private property available to the public at election time.

Here's a thought. All of you that find voting in a church to be intolerable contact whoever is in charge of voting in your state and offer your own private property as a polling place instead.

[hexola]

65. Almost a great idea...but it's not the private sectors responsibility...

Seriously - I thought that...

All of you that find voting in a church to be intolerable contact whoever is in charge of voting in your state and offer your own private property as a polling place instead.

But - I don't think it is the job of the private sector to promote and maintain democracy...

What do you think "whoever is in charge" would say...?

[outinforce]

79. Not The Job of the Private Sector??!!

"I don't think it is the job of the private sector to promote and maintain democracy..."

This statement almost defies belief.

Who, if not "the private sector" has the job of promoting and maintaining democracy?

The government?

Surely, I would think that after three years of * in the Whirte House, people would realize that it is precisely OUR jobs -- as PRIVATE citizens -- to promote and maintain democracy!

[hexola]

82. Private citizens = Private sector - NOT

people would realize that it is precisely OUR jobs -- as PRIVATE citizens -- to promote and maintain democracy!

Correct - and we have devised away to work together and harness that energy...called GOVERNMENT.

When I say "privte sector" - I mean...for example - I don't expect my local crane manufacturer to open thier doors as polling place...same for churches.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Then you must be prepared to spend billions of dollars

To take over for the churches.

[hexola]

87. Billions - sure

So you admit the chuch has a multi-billion dollar interest in this issue?

We just blew 100 billion on a WMD fantasy -

I think we would get a better return on our money investing in the infrastrcture to conduct democracy...

Oh sorry American taxpayer...democracy is just too expensive...

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Huh?

No, I admit it would cost billions of dollars to build these white elephant voting halls.

So, we just blew $100 billion. We should do it again? That's no logic at all.

[LiberalFighter]

100. THAT is a fallacy!

[LiberalFighter]

104. So you know what the cost of doing what you believe would have to be done

to provide other polling places than churches?

You must had done a ten year study on the problem.

/sarcasm off/

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. No study needed

We use thousands and thousands of polling places around the U.S. Many are churches and we lack the facilities to easily replace them. Polling places, by their very nature, are large so that requires a lot of land (expensive in many places) and a building. In major metro areas, you are talking a couple million dollars PER site. That's easy to add up to billions of dollars.

[outinforce]

88. No

"Correct - and we have devised away to work together and harness that energy...called GOVERNMENT."

You are just not correct if by this statement you mean that the only way to work together and to harness that energy is government.

Look, for instance, at DU. A lot of people working together and harnessing energy.

Think that DU is "government"?

There are many, many many ways that private citizens, working together as private citizens, promote and maintain democracy.

If your local crane manufacturer had space suitable for use as a polling place, and was willing to let it be used as a polling place, YOU might not expect to see it used as a polling place.

But thousands of others would stand up and applaud the civic-mindedness of the owner of your local crane manufacturer.

And they would also thank her.

[hexola]

91. Many paths of collective action....

You are just not correct if by this statement you mean that the only way to work together...

Obviously that's not what I meant...Clearly, there are many, many mechnisms of collective action...Chuch, Social groups, DU, FreeRep...but they represent a limited and specific interest(s). Which is why none of those groups in entrusted with protecting democracy.

The government - local or otherwise...represents us all equally...in theory.

...others would stand up and applaud the civic-mindedness of the owner of your local crane manufacturer...

As might I - but I wouldn't support it.

[outinforce]

93. Who Guards The Government?

You suggest that the government is the entity which is entrusted with "protecting democracy".

Do you know the first three words of the US Constitution? Here's a clue: they are NOT "We, the Government".

Do you know who is sovereign within the United States? Here's a clue: It is NO government official.

It is NOT the government that is entrusted with "protecting democracy".

It is every one of us. WE -- you and I and everyone else -- who have that trust.

Giving that responsibility over to the government is what people fought and died to prevent from happening.

[hexola]

95. Yes - all of us - Declaration of Independence...

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed...

We are the government - we just have to VOTE!

The government isn't just some uncontrolled annonyomous automaton!!!
(as you seem to postulate)

We created it - it's us!!! Use it!

[outinforce]

125. Let Me See If I Have This Correctly

You are saying that it is somehow inappropriate for private citizens -- as private citizens -- to do certain things.

I think you said that you would not support the owner of your local crane manufacturing plant if she were to make suitable space available at the plant as a polling place.

And I think your reason for that is that somehow "the government" needs to provide polling places.

But then you say "We are the Government".

So, what is so wrong then with one of "we" providing space to the rest of "we" in order that "we" can vote?

Why do you think it is so essential for the government to construct buildings for the express purpose of voting, when there are alreadyu plenty of buildings that "we" own and that could be used for voting?

[Hammie]

92. Private Sector? WTF?

I'm not talking about some mysterious "Private Sector". I'm talking about actual people and groups who own private property and voluntarily make it available as a polling place on election day. People who, as mysterious as it may be, believe that voting is important enough that they are willing to give up the use of some portion of their property for a day to facilitate voting by their fellow citizens. Should it be surprising that a church, most of which have among their tenets charity and service, would be first in line to offer their facilities? It is necessary to ascribe nefarious motives to their generosity?


How about the volunteers that staff the polling place? Do they have nefarious motives too?

[hexola]

96. No surprise...

Should it be surprising that a church, most of which have among their tenets charity and service, would be first in line to offer their facilities? It is necessary to ascribe nefarious motives to their generosity?

No - but the church is the only "Private Sector" group knocking on my door telling me I'm a sinner and that I need to accept Christ or be forever damned...far from "nefarious" - but certainly not nuetral or unbiased. They also seem to think GW was chosen by God.

How about the volunteers that staff the polling place? Do they have nefarious motives too?

Some likely do - but that doesnt seem to be of issue here...

...People who, as mysterious as it may be, believe that voting is important enough that they are willing to give up the use of some portion of their property...

Sounds like big egos to me - if it's so important - let's spend a bit of tax cash on it!

[LiberalFighter]

97. They don't have to build 100,000 more halls!!!

There are plenty of schools, fire stations, and other government type places.

How many government offices are closed on election day?

[Muddleoftheroad]

113. Clearly there are NOT plenty

Otherwise they would be being used.

[Sterling]

116. Honestly we need to make a way bigger deal of voting

A national holiday would be great. I would not oppose building whatever we need to to ensure equal protection of all our rights to vote.

It is a testiment to how little our vote matters that we have make shift polling places some of which are in churches which in my opinion crosses the line of church and state.

[Az]

20. Um

Religions don't take sides? Um, have you ever actually been to some of these places.

I will grant you that on a broad measure of things there may be some balance. Where some churches are liberal others are conservative.

But to point to your avatar once again you have a politically active member of the clergy staring you in the face and you do not seem to be able to see the connection. Its not just fighting against the religious right. It is fighting for a polling location that is as free of political activism as possible. Churches do not fall under this category. They are nearly by definition sources of political force. They define peoples morals and ethics. Those who do not agree with that particular religions tenents should not be made to walk their halls to cast their vote. This is true for bigots as well as for freedom fighters. A person's vote should be made as free as possible. Without figures of social pressure peering over their shoulders.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Collectively, they fall on ALL sides of every issue

So it is unfair to assume that they or their congregants are in any way on one consistent side.

Yes, thank God I have an avatar who was politically active. Otherwise, I might not have one tenth of the rights I now enjoy.

Let me ask you, what do you propose? In many communities, churches are the only facilities for miles.

[Az]

30. My suggestion

Is to think about it. I do not propose a moritorium on the practice. But keep the fact that churches are often political advocates in mind. Recognise that there are others in the community that may take issue with holding the election there. If at all possible hold them elsewhere. That is all.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. I think that is the current policy

In most places. Churches are a fall-back position.

[hexola]

39. Perhaps...but

...we're not dealing with the "Collective" - we are talking about individual churches - each with specific views (as you mentioned). If voting ONLY happened in churches - you might have a point...

In many communities, churches are the only facilities for miles.

Yes - And - I would bet that this rural church's congregation will vote in higher numbers (proportionately) than the general populus...

Most communities in the US have a public school building that would do nicely...even in rural America...

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Schools ARE used

However, if we simply rely on public facilities, the polling places get overwhelmed and people don't vote.

[hexola]

44. Precisely!!!

if we simply rely on public facilities, the polling places get overwhelmed and people don't vote

That's why its time to build some more public facilities!!! Now you are starting to get it!!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. No, you are the one who doesn't get it

We would have to build and maintain thousands of halls for use a couple times every four years. That is a ridiculous expense.

[hexola]

57. Uh Mr. Genius

In my United States we have elections every year...add primarys...twice a year...

You do know they have elections for other offices besides President?

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Not in every community we don't

Not in MY United States at least.

Congress happens every other year for instance. Many places do not have annual elections -- thank God.

[hexola]

66. In my community...Pennsylvania...

There is something or someone to vote for every year...it would be unusual if there weren't...

sherrif, constable, coroner, supervisor, tax collector...

Most people don't participate locally - so they don't even know what offices are elected...

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. In my experience

I have not encountered such elections. So far at least.

And I vote every time.

Even with TWO votes a year (primaries and general), the buildings would be empty 363 days. That's not how I want my government spending my cash.

[LiberalFighter]

107. You want others to believe they don't get it because...

you think you have all the answers? Or is it because you are creating information or facts to support your premises?

Well, guess what! All I have seen from you are negative responses and putting down DU members for their views.

[Muddleoftheroad]

114. I am not putting down anyone

I am putting down the view to spend billions of dollars in a wasteful pursuit of governmental "purity."

[LiberalFighter]

128. How do you know it will cost billions of dollars?

In addition, I don't support nor do I suggest that additional sites be built for polling places. There should be almost enough or sufficient government sites for polling places.

In most cases, government workers are off because it is a holiday and therefore the building is not being utilized.

City government
County government
Federal government

Public libraries and their branches if any
Elementary schools
High Schools
Local colleges
Armories
Community Centers
Fire Stations
Town meeting halls

Non government sites especially those that are not utilized much on a Tuesday.
Senior Citizen Centers
Apartment complexes with activity centers
Skating rinks
Fairground
Local Unions

I am sure that other sites can be utilized. 2 days a year should not be a big sacrifice for many locations and they should be encouraged to do their civic duty.

Some of the above may not be best suited due to space constraints. But again, with voting machines not taking up as much space as the old lever type it should be less of a problem.


If the time ever comes where internet voting is secured enough to prevent fraud the best places for those without home internet access would be the schools and libraries because many of them have access to the internet for public use and the taxpayers paid for it.

[Book Lover]

60. Not consistent on every issue?

I think pretty much every church stands well behind the "atheists are wrong" issue.

My proposal is multiple-day voting held at the city hall. What's wrong with that?

I also wonder what rights Dr King conferred on you that were not already there when you were born?

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Not so

Many churches don't give a darn what atheists think.

Multiple day voting at city hall? How would you manage that in a major city like Baltimore or New York? It would be chaos.

As for Dr. King, how about the right to vote, the right for an education, the right to live where I wish, to marry whom I wish, etc. If you don't think he helped win me those rights, a history lesson is in order for you.

[Book Lover]

69. Some so

Many churches don't give a darn what atheists think.

Great! Point me to them so I can see for myself.

Multiple day voting at city hall? How would you manage that in a major city like Baltimore or New York? It would be chaos.

I thought we were discussing small towns, but, you're right, I did not make that clear. My apologies. As a native of NYC, I understand what you mean, but for smaller places, I think that is valid. And I strongly feel the US should engage in multiple-day voting anyway, including a weekend day.

As for Dr. King, how about the right to vote, the right for an education, the right to live where I wish, to marry whom I wish, etc. If you don't think he helped win me those rights, a history lesson is in order for you.

I said "conferred." Every right you list, you have it when you are born. Governments may deny them to you, but you've still got them. That may seem a semantic quibble to you, but I feel it is an important point.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. Response

First off, how about the Unitarians? Here is a link to one church that has a nice statement of beliefs:

http://www.qserve.net/~allsouls/covena.htm

Next, even towns would have a problem with one-site voting. Voting is designed to be easy so we can encourage people using their franchise. You make it a challenge for any and all to do so.

Lastly, no I did NOT have those rights. It is NOT a semantic quibble. Some of what I listed was denied African-Americans by action, not by law. Some was outright illegal. To imply we are endowed with those rights when we didn't have them for 400 years is silly.

[hexola]

77. I'll make this concession...

If a church wants to sponsor a polling place - exclusively for their congregation (not the gereral public) - I think they should be able to do so...a bit of a contradiction - yes...

But - it would be the equivalent of all memebers of a congregation getting an absentee ballot, and then getting together at a service to cast your votes...

[Az]

78. Eesh, thats worse

Creating exclusive polling places? Bad bad idea.

We do not live in a perfect world. We should try to avoid church state entanglement but in this case it does happen. Work to diminish it but strive for neutrality till we can figure a means of getting the vote to everyone free of influence.

[hexola]

83. Agreed - bad idea...but...

...they could do it - I think...sort of.

If all members of a congregation requested a absentee ballot...the church could sponsor a "voting service" where everybody got together and filled out their ballots...and sent them in.

More of a "Exclusive Polling Party" than a "Exclusive Polling Place"

My point is - I doubt that could be prevented - nor should it.

[hexola]

76. Why would it be any more chaotic than 1 day voting?

I would think it would ease the chaos...

what would cause this chaos...?

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Instead of one day of chaos, you would get several

That's how.

[hexola]

84. Instead of one day of chaos, you would get several...

and by logic, each of those days would be contain a fraction of the chaos...what's wrong with that?

I dont think this is uncharted territory - doesn't some democracy - somewhere have multiple day voting?

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. You propose several days -- one site

The one site would have the polling machines, volunteers, media and hangers-on EVERY day.

[hexola]

118. So what? nt

[thebaghwan]

36. My problem is that I don't want to step on ground consecrated in the

Christian faith.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Then that is good reason for an absentee ballot

[hexola]

70. That's a terrible reason for an absentee ballott...

You are creating a social hierarchy...nice...just what we need. Make 2nd class citizens of the non-religious...

Absentee ballots are for "Absentees" - not athiests.

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. I have never known someone unwilling to walk on ground before

It strikes me as a zealous response to a situation. Absentee ballots are there for those that can't or won't use the polling facility.

[outinforce]

90. Just Curious --

You mention that you do not want to step on ground consecrated in the Christian faith.

Is that because you have such respect for the Christian faith that you feel that you might somehow desecrate ground consecrated in the Christian faith?

Or is it that your view of Christianity is such that you yourself might be defiled if you were to set foot on ground consecrated in the Christian faith?

[hexola]

26. Thanks for being so honest...

And, to be honest, churches and synagogues don't often HAVE a side...

You have to get some sort of award for the most disingenuous post of the year!

And then you immediately contradict yourself:

Liberal churches in the black community are on the Democratic side

and

Conservative churches typically on the Republican side

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. You attempt to misrepresent what I have said

Churches are not consistent. Religions the same.

Black churches, while Democratic wildly oppose gay marriage. Conservative churches like Catholic churches might be anti-abortion AND anti-death penalty. How that plays out in voting is anybody's guess.

[Bridget Burke]

3. So, how about asking your poll workers?

Ask them how polling places are determined. If you're offended by the current place, how about mentioning an alternative or 2 in your precinct.

The poll workers are your neighbors. (You could even become one if you had the time and the inclination.) Ignoring them & then coming online to whine seems counter-productive.

[bryant69]

4. Good point

I think they are kind of stuck with having polling places convenient location wise and also by what sorts of buildings are willing to let people traipse in and out all day--for better or worse churches are on of those places.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[SaddenedDem]

5. Ummm, hello.....

This is an EDITORIAL in the Atlanta paper.

Did you miss the LINK?

[bryant69]

6. You know when you use all caps like that

It makes you look like you have gravitas.

You presented the argument pretty cold; one can be forgiven for assuming you share the same sentiments as the author of the editorial in question.

Or did you just pick this editorial at random?

DO you think Ghitas's point would have been helped if he talked to the local people who arranged voting areas?

[SaddenedDem]

7. I posted it because a DUer was troubled by the same thing yesterday

AND I thought the editorial was interesting.

It IS a discussion board, after all. I thought it might bring some discussion to the topic.

From a personal viewpoint, it doesn't affect me - my polling place is a school. From a church/state separation issue, I find it VERY troubling. As does the author of the editorial.

I can't affect the choice of THAT polling place, only mine. Can you?

[bryant69]

8. Nope

I go to a church myself to vote (well did last time and probably will this time); but it doesn't bother me much.

I question the authors assessment that there are plenty of other sites available; that may be so in some areas; but in my town I don't think that's the case. Particularly in the less economically advantaged parts of town, it presumably come down to a choice of having them go to a church or traipse across town to go to a more acceptable locale. I think in that case, if I were the elections supervisor I'd probably go ahead and leave it in the church so that more people could vote and not care all that much about some people getting upset at seeing religious imagery where they vote.

[hexola]

16. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I can't make sense out of post #6? Did you post to the wrong thead? Where are the offending caps?

[bryant69]

23. In Post 5

And I wasn't offended, I was amused.

Bryant

[Bridget Burke]

64. Yes, but you linked it with no opinion....

So, now that I've got your attention, have you spoken to your poll workers? Have you mentioned that voting in a religious building is bending you out of shape? Have you suggested other public buildings in the precinct? Location is key--groovy places in other precincts won't do.

Have you tried to become a poll worker?

I vote in a school (Hogg Intermediate!). Aren't most church voting places actually in meeting rooms? You don't actually have to go into the sanctuary. I've been known to tell aggressive bible-thumpers where to get off--one learns these things in Texas. But the fact that religion exists doesn't bother me much.

I can't believe that you're wasting so much time on such a minor thing.

[SaddenedDem]

126. Perhaps you missed post #7

I posted my feelings there.

[hexola]

12. My Polling workers were little old ladies...

who were utterly clueless...

[Sterling]

119. That should tell you sonething. Your vote is meaningless.

We treat our elections like they are a joke. We don't want to spend money on facilities personel or machines. We don't even demand a paper trail anymore.

[Az]

15. You could do both

Take action locally and whine online about this practice. Its kinda why the forums are here. We get together. We whine about things that trouble us. Or were you just telling us to shut up about our concerns and only focus on the concerns you have?

Look, some people have problems with religion. It possibly an important issue for them. If you do not like the discussion of the matter the freedom of a forum is you do not have to actually read the comments of others. It takes an active click to read this stuff. If they eye offend thee etc.

As to discussing the matter it may be that some people simply do not see the problem. By "whining" about it we may bring a serious issue to light that was hidden. Its kinda the thing we do.

[hexola]

9. Why DON'T we invest in Democracy?

Democracy seems to be an orphan that nobody wants...this is our most revered institution and it deserves better. Why don't we have taxpayer-funded voting centers?

My local governement meets in a cold Garage where they store the street signs and snowplows. I think that is a disgrace!

In the last presidential election my polling place was the local firehall...but - no signs - like "Vote here" - Worse yet...the room where you vote is in the BACK of the fire hall - and the door in was a dual steel door with NO HANDLES on the outside. They had it proped open with a stick...well guess what - the stick gets bumped - and the doors close and lock...so when I arrived to vote - I couldn't get in. And there was no sign - so I was wondering if I was even in the right place!!! I did finally get in...and I raised hell at the time - I think they almost callled the cops. So if you want to vote in Rural PA - just look for the door propped open with a stick!

The Church issue is just a symptom of greater problem...

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Why don't we spend even more money

Isn't that what you are saying?

[hexola]

17. Yes - And how much do we spend now?

Judging by the age of the voting booths in my area - Not much!!! Yes - spend more money! Democracy deserves it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. The classic solution

Spend more money. There's lots more important issues than this one out there.

[hexola]

35. "The classic dodge"

More important issues - let me guess - Abortion maybe?

It makes sense to constuct special buildings to host Religion doesn't it? Sure it does...but maybe churches should focus on "more important issues" than the building they use for services.

I'd like to see your congregations reaction when they are told the next service will be in the local Elementary school library...

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Yes abortion is more important

Freedom of choice must be preserved.

Churches hold regular meetings -- often daily -- that involve hundreds or thousands of people. Government does not. Government has no need to build a series of white elephant buildings around the U.S.

[Sterling]

123. Equal protection is a prerequisite to your right to chose.

Remember the ballot box is the only place you get to have a say in keeping that choice.

[Sterling]

122. "local Elementary school library..."

Not a good idea at all. The fundies would love to turn your public school into their church.

[Sterling]

121. More important than the viability of our democracy?

Wow.

[Muddleoftheroad]

124. That viability is not threatened by this

[Sterling]

120. Yes it is well worth it.

We can afford it. In fact we can't afford not to spend whatever is b=needed to respect the process. Otherwise you are wasting your time with politics.

[Bandit]

19. In Oregon everyone votes from the comfort of their home

They also have the largest voter turnout of any state percentage wise. Imagine sitting around the kitchen table deciding what and who you wish to vote for and then letting the postman pick up your ballot without you having to find a parking spot, stand in line, find the time even to do it and then worry about confrontation at the polling booth. How nice it must be. I wish my state was so progressive.

[WoodrowFan]

21. funny story

When I was growing up near Dayton my folks (then me when I was 18) always voted in a local church. When I was about 4 or 5 my Mom went to vote and took me along. I spotted the big baptismal (made for full emersion baptism) and shouted "look Mommy, this church has a swimming pool!"

Hey. I'm Presbyterian. We don't DO full emersion!

[hexola]

22. The Christians I know...

...want the government OUT of their religion - this includes in-church polling places...

Government wants to be revered like a god - no thanks! They love to blur the lines.

[Az]

24. Unfortunately

there are ancient religious institutions that remember and were built up during a time that religion controled the government absolutely. These institutions simply are repeating the same messages that lead to their rise in the first place. It is believers that have broken free of the absolute control of these institutions that reject bringing the church and state together again. But the message is still being placed before the people and not all are so strong minded to avoid its lure.

[thebaghwan]

25. My polling place is a r/w christian church. One year the Pastor was out

there passing out leaflets of his voting recommendations. A clear violation of voting laws in this state as he was doing it within 100 yards of the polling area. I personally am sick and tired of having to vote in a christian church, but I will tell you one thing, I WOULD MARCH THROUGH HELL AND BACK TO CAST MY VOTE AGAINST GEAORGE W. BUSH!!!!

On to victory on 2004!!

[Ladyhawk]

51. I was surprised (and shocked) when I learned

that a fundy church was a polling place in this county. I took my absentee ballot to the library, instead.

[SoCalDem]

55. We used to vote at a catholic church.. this year the library

Schools are a NIGHTMARE.. Because of all the added security and the parking nightmares, I know of 4 people who gave up and did not vote yesterday bacause of all the mass confusion.. The limited parking was totally full.. the entrance to the school is a one way loop that empties onto a one way street that takes you at least the equivalent of 4 blocks before you can even find a place to turn around, and then it's back to fighting school buses, and no parking again.. One friend actually found a place to park, but there was such a long line to fill out the papers necessary to enter the school, that she said "screw it" and just went to work.. an hour late, and she didn't even get to vote..

EVERY community has multiple places to choose from.. What's wrong with the library?? Most places have them, they usually have adequate parking, and most have rooms that are not used.. Hell even the post office could be used.. Most have areas that could be adapted for ONE day every two years..

Schools and churches need not be the first choice.

[LiberalFighter]

103. There was no reason they couldn't have isolated the voting area

in the school to avoid the paper trap.

The school administration should had been disciplined for requiring that on election day. Again... they should had provided a means to avoid filling out those papers.

That policy is idiotic to begin with.

[hexola]

105. A dagger to the "dual-use" concept...

Perhaps it's time to cancel school on Election Day...

[Hammie]

56. Polling places are decided by individual states.

I've lived my whole life in CA. Polling places that I've used have ranged from peoples garage, to school buildings (locker room in one case) to union halls, to a fraternity house. I don't see any problem with a polling place provided by a church. In fact there are benefits. They generally are located on major thoroughfares and are distinctly different from surrounding buildings,which makes them easy to locate. Shools are a good choice also for similar reasons. They also tend to have plenty of parking which can be important too.

[KharmaTrain]

61. I Once Asked...Voted In A Synagogue

For decades my parents voted at the Lincolnwood Jewish Congregation...and so did I. One year I asked one of the judges why the polling place was there and not at the school down the street. I was told it was a matter of convenience. The synagogue is rarely used during the day, has a large parking lot and was in a central location that made it easier for all involved.

My current polling place is our K-6 school and is a terror to get into during school hours on the best of days. Between cellphoned-armed moms in SUVs, battles for "THE" parking spot and double and triple parking, one either votes early or late. Some parents keep their children home since the traffic volume around the schools on those days is very high.

The most intimidating place I ever voted was in a VFW Hall. This was deep in Repugnican territory and you could see "the boys" were keeping a close eye on things. Oh...an no missing that American flag drapped around the Ronald Raygun picture either. Ah, thanks for the 1984 memories....

[stepnw1f]

68. Once again...

Can we just have seperation of Church and State. This seperation protects not only the state from religious influence, but the church from state influence. It's a very simple concept. Damn this pisses me off.

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. And your solution is?

And how will you fund it?

[ArkDem]

75. The government could pay Diebold to install touch screens

at every bus stop in the US.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. LOL

'Nuff said.

[stepnw1f]

106. Seperation of Church and State

That is the solution... Town halls... actually since your not really serious we can send you the bill instead.

[Muddleoftheroad]

115. Of course I am serious

You want to build enough halls to hold 280 million people? Are you joking?

[ArkDem]

74. Oh, the HUMANITY!

.

[hexola]

94. The Best Comment in this thread - Az - thanks...

I think this sums up my feelings nicely...

It is believers that have broken free of the absolute control of these institutions that reject bringing the church and state together again. But the message is still being placed before the people and not all are so strong minded to avoid its lure.

I want the church to be morally powerful - and I want the government to be morally power-less.

Morals are always stronger than laws...we just don't use them very much anymore.

The more we rely on laws...the less we rely on morals - and we become more immoral.

My Chritian friends want the government out of their church, off the money, and out of the pledge..."Keep Your Government off my Religion" is thier motto...

[Heyo]

101. Those people bothered by voting in a church...

... are you that weak minded that you can't walk into a church without being persuaded into a different opinion??

Oh yeah, that's right.. you're so much smarter... it's the others...

.. it's that you don't have enough faith in your fellow democrats to be able to handle walking into a church.

What the hell is the big deal? It's just a building where you go and vote. I don't even attend church but damn.. how ungratefull.

Heyo

[hexola]

102. It increases the likelyhood that church members...

...will show up and vote...

Do you think that that same congregation would vote in the same numbers if the election was not at their church?

I bet not...

[LiberalFighter]

108. But Polling Places are not based on church membership

meaning that all members of a church would not vote at their church just because they are a member there. Only if they live in the precinct that has the church as the polling place.

[hexola]

109. Good point - thanks

I didn't consider that - definitely wrong of me to assume that every member of the congregation is voting in that precinct...

Probably only true in the most rural of areas...if even there.

No biggie - not really the main thrust of my arugument...

Thanks for pointing out that flaw in my thinking...

[LiberalFighter]

110. NP - Not all of us have the answers

Including me!

The reason why rural areas would more likely have all members of a church voting at the same polling place is because the precinct is much larger. It could be as large as a township. Maybe larger depending on the eligible/registered voters allowed in each precinct by state law.

Along the same light.. North Dakota does not have voter registration.
They pretty much rely on knowing who is eligible to vote because they know their neighbors. It is a lot easier to know who they are in low populated areas.

[mac2]

117. We have public buildings such as schools, town halls, etc.

They should be available for the public to vote. No chruches.