Anyone read today's "Right Hook" at Salon.com? Biblical marriage defined

[wyldwolf]

Howard Stern declares war on Bush's "religious agenda"; Gary Bauer claims gay sex is deadlier than smoking. Plus: Presidential Prayer Team prays for the CIA to nab Osama.


Plus, marriage on biblical principles defined:


"Any good religious person believes prayer should be balanced by
action. So here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals,
is a proposed Constitutional Amendment codifying marriage entirely
on biblical principles:

A. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between
one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

B. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in
addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron
11:21)

C. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a
virgin. If the wife is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut
22:13-21)

D. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be
forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

E. Since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the
constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be
construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10: 9)

F. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry
the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or
deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one
shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law.
(Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

G. In lieu of marriage, if there are no acceptable men in your
town, it is required that you get your dad drunk and have sex with
him (even if he had previously offered you up as a sex toy to men
young and old), tag-teaming with any sisters you may have. Of
course, this rule applies only if you are female. (Gen 19:31-36)"

[xchrom]

1. as a gay man i'm so glad

i don't have any brothers.
my shoes are really expensive.

[DNA]

2. I did read that

It's making the email circuit.

[RhodaGrits]

3. I got this one in an email from a very RW friend of mine in his 70s who

says he recently has changed his views on gay marriage because he and his wife have become friends with a lesbian couple in their neighborhood and it really opened his eyes. Change is happening. This may backfire on *. I don't think it will win him any new votes and it may lose him more.

[foreigncorrespondent]

4. It already is backfiring on him.

He should have listened when he was told that the majority of the country is against a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage.

The LCR will not support him, and most likely the moderate voter will not be supporting him either.

[crushbush04]

5. This is idiotic...

reporting or writing of an incident does not mean endorsement. this is what the last reference actually is!! It is what happened after Lots daughters thought they and their father were the only people left on earth after the destuction of Sodom and Gommorah.

The New York Times reported on the Catholic churches incest scandal. Is the Times now in favor of incest? The story and their behavior is recorded not endorsed.

I have to check the other references before I draw any conclusion of the Salon.com articles real point but I suspect that this is more out of context nonsense. As a christian hardcore liberal who is for gay marriage I think it is offensive. Marriage is not just a Christian institution. It crosses all religious and cultural boundaries. Every culture has some form of marriage.

The case for gay marriage should and can be made as a matter of rights and humanity

So to pull some bible text with the pretence of providing useful information for the advocates of gay marriage is stupid.

I may be biased on this but I am willing to bet that more Christians are in favor of gay marriage than any other faith.

I wonder why the writer didnt choose a Buddhist text or a Hindu verse. How about some Koranic words wisdom from our Muslim brothers and sisters. I am sure you could find some great words of wisdom on the great institution of marriage from these other books.

Any religions text can be distorted by those who wish to do so. This Salon.com writer is just the latest.

[Mixxster]

6. "I wonder why...

the writer didnt choose a Buddhist text or a Hindu verse. How about some Koranic words wisdom from our Muslim brothers and sisters. I am sure you could find some great words of wisdom on the great institution of marriage from these other books."

My guess is because, as we are so often reminded, America is a predominently Christian nation. As such it's the Falwells, Bauers, Robertsons, Bushs, et al who are railing against gay marriage. I haven't seen any pro-amendment comments from the Dalai Lama, although I'm sure Louis Farrakhan has plenty of anti-gay remarks on record.

Edited to add:

Any religions text can be distorted by those who wish to do so. This Salon.com writer is just the latest.

No one at Salon wrote the piece.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/right_hook/2004/03/03/howard_stern/index1.html

<snip>

As the same-sex marriage debate erupted last month, Protestants for the Common Good, a religious education and advocacy group based in Chicago, saw fit to publish an anonymous opinion piece in its weekly newsletter, which outlines a marriage amendment perhaps worthy of the Taliban. The piece alarmed many liberals and was fast circulated on the Web as the latest example of hard-line conservative propaganda:

<snip>

But apparently the opinion piece was widely misconstrued: The managing editor of the organization's newsletter, Bridget Stevens, told Salon that Protestants for the Common Good viewed the piece as pure satire and posted it to spark debate about the perils of appropriating the Bible to define marriage law.

[crushbush04]

9. My point is

this is not the way the argument should be framed. You should appeal to peoples humanity not insult their faith. Most who have this kind religious opposition will not even listen if this is where the argument starts.

I am very wary of a person who would write something like the Salon.com article fully aware he or she is distorting the original text. My first reaction to the article was to ask if Jayson Blair now works for Salon.

It is a disgrace and does not help in any way further our goal of acheiving the goal of equal treatment for gays and lesbians.

[Mixxster]

20. Once again a Salon writer is not responsible for the piece.

As the same-sex marriage debate erupted last month, Protestants for the Common Good, a religious education and advocacy group based in Chicago, saw fit to publish an anonymous opinion piece in its weekly newsletter...

[newyawker99]

28. Hi crushbush04!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[chelaque liberal]

7. Aren't you being a little over sensative?

This is satire. NPR did a funny one Saturday on protecting "special relationships", or whatever the term was that Bush used. The author pointed out that man's relationship with his dog is also special and he thought there should be a constituional amendment protecting that too. I thought it was hilarious.
Lighten up. It's going to be a rough ride.

[crushbush04]

10. Oh I get it

Ha Ha LOL LOL Ha Ha

[msmcghee]

12. What I find amusing . .

. . is the sensitivity of many Christians here.

Does it ever occur to you how absurd it seems to many of us that there are actually adults who profess to believe that Jesus was the result of a virgin conception and that we live after we die and that if we're good we'll go to live in heaven with the angels in the clouds?

Or how absurd it is that our government is being run by these people?

My purpose is not to start another religious flame-fest. But please, lighten up on the indignation. If you're going to believe in wierd things and make those the center of your life and try to use them to control the lives of others - then you need to develop a thicker skin.

If it's important to you to wear your religion on your sleeve - you can expect to get it thrown back at you.

[crushbush04]

14. You dont get the point

do you?

The object is to change minds.

We constantly ask people to be tolerant of others race, culture, sexual orientation and, yes, religion.

Its all silly and ignorant if you dont believe in it is'nt it?

If you cant respect the fact that others believe differently then you can continue to live in the comforts of the world that affords you the convenience to feel so.

Whose mind do you intend to change?

Some enlightened religious person is sure to say "I guess I am an idiot. I guess my beliefs are silly and ignorant." after hearing your "tolerant" condemnation of their faith.

How can we then say "you must respect my right to marriage" when the opposite is true of our respect for other traditions?

[Az]

19. Expect

Figuring the between 7%-14% of the US population believes in a god I expect that calling them a bunch of fools for believing such things is going to result in them deciding not to listen to us.

A persons beliefs are how they see the world. Yes, many people beleive there is an invisible all seeing entity watching over them. Yes, many of them believe that a guy was born of a virgin and ascended into the sky. Yes, many believe that the world is only 6000 years old. And yes, many believe that we that do not believe are in league of fooled by satan.

Knowing this what does reason tell you that attempting to force our views of the universe on them will accomplish? Knowing this what can you expect from your tactics? Think they are going to listen to you? Think they are going to have any compassion for your situation? Want to be heard? Say things that will be listened to.

[crushbush04]

22. Have you

changed any minds lately?

The louder you scream the bigger earplugs people will use.

Anybody can scream and be loud but if the object is simply to be heard whats the point?

Let me define the objective here: To get those on the other side to accept who homosexuals are ie. fellow human beings who deserve the rights and respect that is afforded every other human being.

If you want so sit at your computer and bitch about how much the everybody sucks and then you offer nothing in the way of seriously advancing a cause or present a game plan then what is your point?

Is it complain or make fun of others?

Is it to SCREAM!!

If thats the case. I heard you. Now what?

[Az]

24. A place at the table

The trick is to demand your place at the table without demanding everyone else must leave. Let them keep their beliefs. Let them hate who they choose to. But do not let them deny you or others their rights.

Calling them names for calling you names accomplishes nothing. In order to make any headway we must shatter images and presumptions. We do not accomplish this by being what they expect us to be. Do not become their dirty hate filled heathen. Shatter their belief by being what they believe you are not. In then end only they can change themselves. The only thing we can do is give them examples of how other ways can be in a positive light.

I have brought change to others (as they have to me). I have done so by being honest, open, and understanding. I do not hide my beliefs but I do not disparage others their's. I make it understood that I may disagree with them but I defend their right to believe as they will. I present my ideas in ways that do not condemn others but make clear that I do disagree. In this way when they are ready to ask questions they can come to me in trust that I will be honest and patient with their exploration.

A person will not look to a path that is guarded by someone they have learned is hostile to their position. Even when their beliefs are cast into doubt they will see the hatred espoused by the guardians of these other paths and stay away from them. They will either turn to other beliefs similar to their existing stance or they will in time ease back into the former beliefs and pave over their doubt.

It is a matter of being a viable alternative. By showing that you can hold your own and maintaining a place at the table others will consider what you have to say. And in this way you can make a difference. And you can learn from the others as well instead of living isolated and confined to a limited community.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. about changed minds

i used to believe that all liberals thought the second amendment was crap...i now see they dont and do understand their point...not that i will go to an NRA meeting soon but i am more flexible on the gun issue than i was yesterday...


people can and do change their minds

[crushbush04]

29. Good for you

[crushbush04]

30. By the way...

I know this is a little off topic but whats up with Howard Stern now projecting himself as some kind of messiah for free speech...

He has his right to do what he wants on the air, I guess, but the messianic imagery and on air apocalyptic crap that I have heard he is now doing is too much.

[Bridget Burke]

8. Taking Bible verses out of context is an old tradition....

And pseudo-Christians have been doing it a long time. They'll "cherry-pick" a bit of Leviticus to back up their anti-gay statements but ignore the parts that are inconvenient.

Were Lot's daughters punished for getting their dad drunk & having their way with him? Of couse, since he'd offered them up to a mob back home, I guess it was nice they still "cared" for him.

[supernova]

11. Exactly,

If biblical literalists are going to be so, well literal-minded, we should call their bluff!

I love this piece. :D

[Cannikin]

15. The Bible is being used AGAINST us...

Call THEM stupid. We are mearly defending ourselves by fighting fire with fire....they pick and choose what verses to use against us, while ignoring all the positive messages. We are mearly defending ourselves.

"I may be biased on this but I am willing to bet that more Christians are in favor of gay marriage than any other faith."

And I'll bet you money you are wrong on that..unless its just a matter of the Christian faith's vast numbers...at least down here in the bible belt where I am....the actual BUCKLE of the bible belt, all us homa-sexules are going to hell.

[crushbush04]

18. Bet money eh?

Is Bill Bennett now a member of DU? If it is you Brother Bill your true conversion is welcome. Not only your ideological change but your sexual orientation as well. I noticed your cute little rainbow flag...

Seriously though, I may be biased, but think about it for a second before you respond. So you know many christians who are totally biased against homosexuality. Thats your view, and that may be a very big buckle.

However think of this, the only societies where homosexuals have basically free range and can be most open about their sexuality are either christian, secular-christian or totally secular.

Now does my statment make more sense?

[Cannikin]

23. reply...

" I noticed your cute little rainbow flag..."

I'm glad you like it. Was that supposed to mean something?

"So you know many christians who are totally biased against homosexuality. "

Yes. I'm listening to them on a local radio show as we speak...my own governor talking about measures we must take before the marriage 'problem' reaches our state (Arkansas).

If you like, we can start a thread asking the other gay DU'ers to post there less than positive Christian messages they have recieved themeselves if you doubt my word.

"the only societies where homosexuals have basically free range and can be most open about their sexuality are either christian, secular-christian or totally secular."

I'm totaly open minded. I WANT to believe more Christians than not support us, but I've seen no evidence of it, myself.

Again. I live in Arkansas. You still have to use caution leaving a night club because their may be a truck-load of people with bats to assault you in the parking lot on a saturday night....then they get up the next day and go to church.

Again...You actually HEAR these words on the radio and message boards here: all them homa-sexules are going to hell. It says so in the bible.


I know of little or NO support for gays in this state.

[crushbush04]

26. I guess

you didnt get the joke...

Its almost not a joke if I have to explain it but I will.

So pretend you are staunch, hardcore right-winger BILL BENNETT (Mr book of virtues) with gambling problems who is anti gay and finally becomes gay and joins DU then decides to make a bet with a fellow DUer online. Picture him waving a "cute little rainbow flag"

...now do you get it?

and we call them humorless and sensitive.

Back to the serious stuff. Name me one country that is not christian or secular christian that is tolerant of homosexuals

PS. I dont know what the situation for gays is like in Isreal which is Jewish

[Malva Zebrina]

27. Probably because of all the publicity Bush brings with his Christianity

I think. I don't think tit for tat necessarily brings anything to the argument.

The fact is that on almost a daily basis, we see Christianity in the headlines. Either they want to dismantle the notion of separation of church and state, want to put the ten commandments in front of City Hall, and of course, you have George Bush to thank for bringing Christianity to the forefront of this whole thing when he declares the Christian god speaks to him. It is well known that Christians of this evangelical bent are fond of declaring that the United States is a "Christian Nation" and that dissolution of the Constitution in favor of a theocracy is their goal.

It is probably not yours and I am trying not to paint with a broad brush, but you cannot deny that Bush has given this movement an enormous push into the politics and governing of our day. Today I read that Bush wants to involve churches more in federal programs (of charity) I presume.

How many would refuse the money? I have no idea. I would hope they would not rush toward the feeding trough, but I do suspect, not many will refuse church welfare. The "piety" will overtake the loyalty to the Constitution, or they will make up or find a tract in the bible that says is is just fine to be on government dole.

Anyhow, my point is that neither Buddhists, Hindues or other religions take the spotlight as much as Christianity does in the this country, especially under Saint George Bush, the slayer of Babylon.
That is your burden as a Christian and the burden of many others who cannot tolerate George Bush and want him out of there.

By that time it may be too late. Once on the dole, it is hard to shed it--

[PATRICK]

13. Legitimate context

Actually the observance of these laws was not strict and uniform. Mary herself avoided being put to death or sent away(another legal option) when pregnant while engaged. It goes to what absolutes you are trying to hang your laws of convenience on.

It is relevant because they cannot limit their discussion to gay marriage. Already by implication and argument it is dragging childrearing into the mix. Does that mean no gay couples can rear children? Yet the avid supporters of the draconian amendment easily step to that issue. From there where next?

The evil and absurdity and un-Americanism of this latest red herring is being faced head on and should continue to be faced head on.

Divorce especially is the crux if the words of Jesus are the ultimate fall back, because that was the major context when He was asked for legal exceptions to a religious ideal. If the Bible shows anything besides ideals and models it is a history of petty lawmaking for social whim and injustice, something basically Jesus decried in principle even if done by Moses.

[Cannikin]

16. Amen.

[TankLV]

17. Simply priceless!

Wonderfully done.

Bravo.

"But you are being unfair to the fundies among us - to us their own words against them!"

HA!

Oh the rich satire.

[Cannikin]

21. I cant read it!!!

I dont know what I've done with my firewall, but I cant get a day pass to read the rest of the story!