'Righteous Murder'

[SuffragetteSal]

Apparently some here in the USA have had some concerns about a fraction of the Muslim community in Saudi Arabia preaching 'righteous murder' in their mosques. I heard this on CNN this morning while discussing the book Sleeping With the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude by Robert Baer.

I was struck with the idea to the comparison to supporting our troops with unfailing blind patriotism, could be construed to be exactly the same thing, 'righteous murder'.

Are we really all so innocent ourselves in what we preach in our daily lives, even in some of our own churches that which advocate the killing of innocent civilians in the name of liberation? In my opinion, when those who wave the signs that say 'United We Stand', 'Support our Troops' they might as well be saying, United We Stand in Righteous Murder.

I really don't see any difference.

[Robin Hood]

1. 9/11 is brought up to manipulate peoples motions

And everyone cries crocodile tears for the victims. but no one wants to talk about the thousands of innocent people that have been butchered in Afghanistan and Iraq. How many children did we lose in 9/11? How many have we killed elsewhere?

America is a careless and ignorant pig.

[jagguy]

13. everyone talks about thousands of innocents

I've yet to see any numbers that I can believe.

Also, read up on what the Christian definition of murder is. It might surprize you.

[Robin Hood]

15. Why don't you tell me what

the Christian definition is?

[SuffragetteSal]

16. Who said Christian?

I said they all think God is on their side...there are many god's my fellow.

By the way, why don't you tell us what the Bible says about murder. I thought it was one of the 10 commandments.....

[jagguy]

18. the point is what is the definition of murder is in the Judeo Christian fa

There is justified killing of people which explains why war is not comdemmed out of hand.

Its a complicated bit of research, rather too detailed for ths forum but the short form is that the intentional taking of innocent life is murder. Accidental taking of life, not murder. Ergo, an errant bomb is not murder. Intentionally bombing say an elementary school would be murder.

If you really care, take the time to understand fully.

[Robin Hood]

19. I thought that we were supposed to

turn the other cheek.

[jagguy]

21. like I said, study it fully

Turning the other cheek works most of the time but Evil knows scripture too and will turn it against the unwary.

Just because fundies get stuck on single sentence explinations for everything doesn't make it so.

[Robin Hood]

29. Talk of evil and good is a madness.

perpetrated by fanatics.

[SuffragetteSal]

20. God knows what my heart says

I do not have to understand any more that that and my heart says it is not okay to kill under ANY circumstances.

[jagguy]

22. And I pray that you are never tested harder than that

.

[Robin Hood]

2. It appears that the lack of response to this post

only proves your point about America's denial, even on this board. We don't want to feel responsible for children with missing arms or blown out brains.

It's a sad, sad state of denial that we live in. We are a sick nation.

[beanball]

36. This sick nation

amen to that brother.

[FloridaPat]

3. Nope - same thing. And if you ever look at the history of the

US, our government has been doing that for 200 years. And are still doing at home and abroad.

[SuffragetteSal]

4. Hi FloridaPat

I wish I could remember the quote from the father in 'Legends of the Fall' which I re-watched last evening. Near the end after his son returns from the war and one does not, and then his other son becomes a congressman, he has wise words to the remaining family members regarding our country 'never being a kind and humane country' steeped in killing and suffering of others for their own good.

(i.e. the Native Peoples of this land)

[SuffragetteSal]

5. Answering myself

It is incomprehensible that 'we' needed to kill anyone's grandson in the name of freedom. In any war there seems to be the need for a hero and the need for an ememy, and both claim to have God on their side.

[Blue_Chill]

6. You're blaming the hammer instead of the person using it

The military does what the President tells them to. If they don't they suffer sever consequences. Thus your statement that by supporting our troops we support 'righteous murder' is flawed. Supporting those politicians that made this war happen, the GOP, those in the intelligence community that lied to congress, the president, etc etc is closer to what you are trying to say.

[SuffragetteSal]

8. How many received a BB gun for the 12th birthday?

You may be right, I am blaming the wrong people. I now wish to blame the parents of the children - the ones that taught them that is okay to kill...

[Blue_Chill]

9. So it is never ok?

Tell that to our terrorist friends. Until the world agrees with you, the US needs soldiers.

[SuffragetteSal]

10. +

And you include a 'cross' as your icon?

[Blue_Chill]

11. avoiding the question?

of course you are.

[SuffragetteSal]

17. yes indeed

it is NEVER okay.

[Blue_Chill]

24. So we should have

let Hitler take over the world?]

My point is there are time when there are no other options. To say otherwise is to surrender yourself to idealism.

[SuffragetteSal]

28. Idealism?

where did you hear that - a.m. radio?

BTW: you never did answer my question, did you receive a gun for your 12th or 13th birthday?

[Blue_Chill]

33. AM radio?

please. You are being idealistic and you know it. Trying to associate my opinion with wingnut talk show hosts doesn't change anything.


BTW: you never did answer my question, did you receive a gun for your 12th or 13th birthday?

I have never even laid a hand on a gun. I don't see any use for one in my life.

[Robin Hood]

12. And what created our terrorist friends?

Do you really think that they just hate us for our rich life style? No, These people have been driven to hate because of U.S. foreign policy. 9/11 was just the chickens coming home to roost. In this case, the chickens that Reagan/Bush gave birth to.

[Blue_Chill]

23. so then we should have allowed the USSR

have afghanistan? Because that is where we met good ol Osama.

Also I see your point but the fact that they exist mean we have to have a military. It's a cycle that can't be ended. So like I said, when the world disarms then the US can do the same but until then it's not a viable option.

[jagguy]

26. I think you need to listen to them a little better

they don't refer to their enemies as the Crusaders for no reason.

US foreign policy has little to do with it and if you don't believe that they hate us for freedom and western lifestyle that is a negative influence to their young then you're just not paying attention.

They are all about control and the western lifestyle flys in the face of that. They started blowing stuff up long before Bush.

[Blue_Chill]

27. let's not forget that Osama

hates western 'culture'.

What some DUers refuse to accept is that he hates us in the same way the KKK hates blacks. He wants to keep his race 'pure'.

[SuffragetteSal]

30. yes...let's not forget Osama

George...where is Osama?

[jagguy]

31. if he's still among the living

he's just another animal scurrying among the rocks on the Afghan/Pakistani border.

[Blue_Chill]

34. regardless of where he is

he still hates us because he's a racist freak and thinks the Taliben provide a great standard of living.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beanball]

37. Hate

do you personally know Osuma?if not how the hell do you know his thoughts?.

[BeFree]

40. Neither China or India have a military like ours

Why is that? Both countries have a much larger population of humans. They've both been around longer than the US. What makes the little 'ol US so 'right'?

[Robin Hood]

14. I think that what SuffrageteSal is saying.

Is that what is really meant when people these days wave the support our troops banner, is that what they really mean is support George Bush. Tell me, how exactly is anyone except the military families supporting the troops? What are you doing to support the troops?

You see, it's all bullcrap lip service that is purely political and has nothing to do with supporting the troops, if anything it uses our troops for their political gain, but hey, why not, Bush has been using them for his political gain.

Support the troops, bring them home.

[Blue_Chill]

25. If that is what he is saying

then he should have said it. But he didn't he blamed the troops for the choices of our political leaders. That is wrong and I won't allow mindless garbage like that go unopposed. Many if not most people in the armed forces are there as a way out of problems or poverty.

[sandnsea]

7. Civil Rights Movement

It started and was organized in churches. That's why the churches are burned down. And our churches today are certainly a driving force behind the war and other acts of violence here in the U.S.

As to terrorists, because small groups of violent people might splinter out of some larger Saudi religious movement, doesn't necessarily mean that the Muslim religious are actually teaching violent terrorism. It's something I've been thinking about in conjunction with the Civil Rights Movement and wondering exactly what those Saudi religious leaderes are really saying.

[Character Assassin]

32. Please detail exactly which churches were burned, and in which context

That's why the churches are burned down.

It's not exactly clear what you mean.

As to terrorists, because small groups of violent people might splinter out of some larger Saudi religious movement, doesn't necessarily mean that the Muslim religious are actually teaching violent terrorism.

Quite frankly, having spent time in the ME, and having been in SA, Yemen, Oman and eastern Africa, yes, it does mean that. It is tribalism, trying to pass itself off as religion, but all the hallmarks are there.

It's something I've been thinking about in conjunction with the Civil Rights Movement and wondering exactly what those Saudi religious leaderes are really saying.

I mean no disrespect, but you had better clarify that statement. To equate the U.S. Civil Rights Movement with Saudi fundamentalist Islam is nothing short of the most pig-ignorant bucket of shit I may ever have heard here, and that's saying something.

Please support your statement or retratct it.

[sandnsea]

38. You can support your statements too you know

'I've been there and I've made a decision' isn't exactly proof. Neither is the interpretation of the U.S. Government.

Islamic terrorists might be equated to militant civil rights people, a small group outside the mainstream of the movement. They did bomb cop cars and threaten violence, as you might recall. I shouldn't have to provide proof of that, you ought to just know that, you're obviously not a teen-ager.

Many important movements in the U.S. have come through the churches and nonviolence. All I'm saying is that EVERY Muslim leader may not be preaching violence even if they are expressing 'discontent' with the U.S.

Having been to those countries you ought to also know how much the U.S. has contributed to these tribal/religious/Soviet/oil conflicts and wars in the first place. What exactly do you think our military is doing in 120 countries around the world?

[Judi Lynn]

39. Here's a list I found quickly of burned Methodist churches in the U.S.

listed by states, alphabetically, approximately 163. Did a quick, but perhaps not accurate count.

These churches were burned between 1990 and 2000.

http://gbgm-umc.org/advance/Church-Burnings/methstats.stm

BOMBING :nuke: black churches goes back to the '60's. Truly vile.

I read that burning churches became second only to cross burnings, as a method of intimidation.

IF you want more info., there's a lot to read in any search on the subject.