Outside DU and Fundie Circles, some Americans think Passion / Easter Movie

[KoKo]

I was in an upscale women's clothing store this afternoon and five Southern Ladies in front of the store were chatting about their intentions of seeing "The Passion" as if it was an old Charlton Heston, "Sword and Sandals" Bibilical extrvagananza one would rent or that one remembered from way back. The women were a mix including one African-Amercan about 20 something, two 35-40 something average, and two females in their 50's to maybe 60. They were all chummy store employees and discussing it as if it was really just an Easter movie.

The younger A-A female said, "I know I'm going to cry," and one other said "Well, I hear there's alot of blood, but I'll just leave if it's too much.." and the others were chatting about their schedules for when they will get to it.

It was sort of like .......ho hum.....

Geeze! I was ready to confront them with all I know about that movie, when I realized they would think I was a raving "nut case." But, then they haven't spent the last three years obsessed about Bush and monitoring the atrocities of this disgusting Administration who "stole and election and America from us."

To these ladies....(and they all appeared to be the kind of folks who were nice, normal, average Americans)....it's just a Movie...folks!

What's the big deal. If they don't like it they won't recommend it...if they do they will tell all their friends but caution them. It didn't seem to be the end of civilization to them.

Maybe we are "whacked out" about nothing here. Folks see it for what it is? And the Fundies will have their day..but then they get a hard on over anything they think supports their cause, whether it does or not..it's their perception. :shrug:

[usrbs]

1. This movie will be put to bad use

Not by that group of women, but by the Fundamentalists, and, without any doubt, by antisemites. Just do a search at DU and find personal accounts of being in a movie theater watching the movie and hearing comments such as "Those fucking Jews".


Besides, books, movies and shows are part of the building blocks of our culture, and aren't "just books" or "just movies".
"Uncle Tom's Cabin", "Black Beauty", Sinclair's "The Jungle" all caused real changes in the world and in people's viewpoints. So did "The Birth of a Nation" and "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which is still causing harm to this very day.

[KoKo]

5. I don't disagree about the "Fundies." But, there are others who are

rational. That was my point. I think his movie might cause more of a cataclysm with Right and Left and Christian and Jew...but only with the Fundies on both sides.

I thought my observation was hopeful in that not all are taken in by the hype or the propaganda in the movie.

I could be wrong about these women that they will be turned into rabid anti Jewish or Pro-Fundie Christians by seeing this. But, I saw it as a reality check that we here on DU and Pundits who are concerned about this or are hyping it for hype value, may not be seeing the whole picture of what the "average Jane and Joe" out on the street are thinking about this movie.

The agenda of the person walking into the theater is the consideration. Not so many folks out there in "Average America" are as "hard core politico's" as the Washingon Pundits, Religious Agitators, Progressive Web Sites and Free Repuglic, are.

It's just an "Easter Movie" out of Hollywood to them. (most folks today are aware of hype and may take all the controversy as just more sales hype over a movie). I think that may be a "hopeful sign?"

[usrbs]

8. I agree. The average viewer won't be adversely affected but

my point is that many very hateful people will. And that makes this a negative, something bringing more hate and more stupidity into a world which has plenty of both.


Just think of the idiotic "Left Behind" series, and what it does to mushy minds. Why should I be not slightly upset about more ammunition for Fundies and for Anti-Semites?

[liberalhistorian]

10. To the "average viewer" it may not be

a big deal, but it is if you're Jewish and have to put up with the anti-semitic bullshit in the movie and from those around them and those who've seen it. All these people claiming it's not anti-semitic and should be "no big deal" aren't Jewish or don't know any Jews who will be affected.

And as a liberal Christian, I'm not too thrilled about the intense focus Gibson puts on Christ's pain and suffering, when that is not at all what he wanted the focus to be on. He wanted it to be on the pain and suffering of other human beings, no matter who they were or what color they were (hell, Jesus himself wasn't white, a fact you just can't get through the heads of fundie racists) or their socioeconomic status or what they'd done in the past, etc., etc., etc.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Will the really hateful folks bother to see it?

They already know how to hate and they either hate Jews or they don't.


What has the "Left Behind" series done "to mushy minds" other than waste their time? Or maybe not waste their time since they enjoy the books.

I know a number of people who have read the whole series, eagerly looking forward to each new book in the series, and most of them are Catholics, another a Ba'hai, i.e,, people who many fundies do not expect to be saved at all. They claim the books really kept their interest and made them think. I wouldn't say any of these folks are the sharpest knives in the drawer, knowing what their other favorite books are, but it's not a crime to be average and be moved by average books.

I haven't read them and have no intention of doing so, because the authors are not at all credible, in my view, and I don't believe in the Rapture. However, apparently they have some mystery, some romance, some dimestore philosophy and theology, so maybe they are just a good read for most people. I'd rather see "The Passion" because it seems to be visually effective but I probably will wait for the DVD, avoiding 1) paying theater prices, and 2) having to watch the brutality all in one stretch.

[Mick Knox]

2. Bought tickets today

for tomorrows showing.. everything was sold out today and through tommorrow except for the 10 am showing .. so thats where I'll be... That includes the 10 pm showing.

It was packed.

oh you say.. big deal.. its like that everywhere..
not

The town is less than 10000 people .. its showing on two screens.. i've NEVER seen a movie sold out like this and packed like this.. not spiderman, starwars, matrix, titanic.. In fact .. nothing close. I went to star wars I opening day.. and it wasnt sold out.

It is quite amazing. In walmart it was talked about.. I was in Umpire school all day.. it was being talked about.. At KFC grabbing lunch.. it was being talked about.

Thats been my passion experience thus far.. tommorrow I finally see it. And I'm cant wait to Experience it.

[DemBones DemBones]

3. So, are people liking it, hating it, saying it's good but

the violence is hard to watch. what?

[WaywardSon]

4. I don't understand...

This is my first post so chide me if you will but be gentle.

Geeze! I was ready to confront them with all I know about that movie, when I realized they would think I was a raving "nut case." But, then they haven't spent the last three years obsessed about Bush and monitoring the atrocities of this disgusting Administration who "stole and election and America from us."

What did * have to do with this movie? I haven't seen it. Have you seen it?

I've been a lurker for 6 months and it's time for action.

[KoKo]

7. Well, the "Religious Fundamentalists" are Bush's Base.......so any movie

which speaks to their literal view of the New Testament, fortifies their beliefs about how people should behave. Asscroft is a prime example of fundamentalism. He leads his prayer groups, covered statues which he thought were exposing "nakedness" and I could give a list of other Fundie doctrine, like teaching "creationism" in schools, saying scientific research is against the Bible, that women should be subservient to their menfolk....and on and on.

Since Bush's base is these folks and they will "get off" on seeing Jesus suffering with the blood and beatings, but miss the message that "Christ knew he was going to die for our sins and that he was prepared to suffer that to teach us that if we tried to live a life which followed the Commandments and Loving thy Neighbor as Thyself, and that though we might suffer interminable pain and suffering in our lives on Earth but the promise of God was that after death we would be resurrected and rewarded for our sufferings on Earth.. Well, that message doesn't seem to be in this movie from the reviews I've read, so one must assume it will appeal to those who want to "punish those who they feel killed Jesus." Since only the Fundies will think that, I thought it heartening that others who aren't Fundamentalists may have a very different view of that movie.

That's what I was trying to say here.

[WaywardSon]

11. Thank you n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

13. Oh, no, KoKo, I don't think that's it at all! Really,

I think the assumption in what you wrote is way off base.

Here's what you wrote, with your assumption emphasized:

Since Bush's base is these folks and they will "get off" on seeing Jesus suffering with the blood and beatings, but miss the message that "Christ knew he was going to die for our sins and that he was prepared to suffer that to teach us that if we tried to live a life which followed the Commandments and Loving thy Neighbor as Thyself, and that though we might suffer interminable pain and suffering in our lives on Earth but the promise of God was that after death we would be resurrected and rewarded for our sufferings on Earth.. Well, that message doesn't seem to be in this movie from the reviews I've read, so one must assume it will appeal to those who want to "punish those who they feel killed Jesus."

I have read many reviews tby Catholic reviewers that say the movie is a profoundly Eucharistic movie that will have a meaningful effect on Catholics while the obvious references to the Eucharist and transubstantiation will not register with non-Catholics. I would expect those references to register well with Episcopalians such as yourself and with Lutherans, but not be particularly important to Protestants whose view of Holy Communion is that it is purely symbolic, and be unimportant, if not ignored by most everybody else.

I'd also disagree about this:

"Since only the Fundies will think that, I thought it heartening that others who aren't Fundamentalists may have a very different view of that movie."


I don't think that fundamentalists want to punish anyone for killing Jesus. I think they know who killed Jesus -- not the Jews or the Romans but all of us. They do believe that all Jews must convert before Armageddon or maybe before the Last Judgement, so they can be saved, but they are fervent supporters of Israel and her people because Israel's existence fulfills prophetic condition for the End Times. I'd say they'd like to punish Arabs and other Muslims who have harmed Israel (and/or America.)

Fundies are weird sometimes, and so sure they'll be saved (very anoying, that "God told me to say I hate you" view that some hold) but I'm not sure they're into establishing a theocracy, either. The Dominionists want a Christian government, and presumably they were once fundies or evangelicals, but fundie doesn't equal Christian Reconstructionist. Fundies would like to see gay marriage and abortion banned, sure, and they've worked to gain political power, but are not necessariy into taking over the entire government and establishing a theocratic government.

[lumpy]

17. Bushco is using Christian fundamentalist

ideology to further their world domination agenda. It is becoming very apparent that neocon's Bushco agenda is to affirm and create a USA theocracy. The wars of the future will be of religious nature. Gibson's movie has really accelerated religious discussion and will no doubt help in creating more anti-semitism to further muddy the religious waters. The US Constitution will be battered and bloodied in the process.

[Lars39]

6. I think a lot will depend on how the pastors/preachers

approached this in their sermons before the release of the movie, and after the movie was released.

[tobius]

9. you would have sounded like a nut case

big, hidden, dark, diabolical, all-encompassing conspiracies appeal to people who feel that they have very little contol of their own life or they are so convinced that the only way someone could disagree with them is if they are complete morons or have been brainwashed. or combination of both.

when someone is approached by a person who is in that frame of mind , "nut case' is only one of the many descriptions that would fit.

[Mari333]

19. ....

http://www.yuricareport.com/

[KoKo]

25. Interesting link, "Mari." n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

12. KoKo, that's an interesting take on "Passion"

I have been thinking much the same as what you say here:

"Geeze! I was ready to confront them with all I know about that movie, when I realized they would think I was a raving "nut case." But, then they haven't spent the last three years obsessed about Bush and monitoring the atrocities of this disgusting Administration who "stole and election and America from us."

"To these ladies....(and they all appeared to be the kind of folks who were nice, normal, average Americans)....it's just a Movie...folks!"


DU does get us all thinking the worst about some people when there may be reasonable and innocent reasons for what they do. I know Mel Gibson hopes his movie will deepen Christian's faith and bring non-believers to Christ but those intentions aren't evil. I think he's kind of a jerk, but a lot of people are, and some still do good quality work. Hemingway comes to mind. Fitzgerald, too. Bill Maher and Michael Moore can be real jerks, too. But it's kind of narrow-minded, and very limiting, to try to avoid books written or movies made by people who don't share your views.

But people can avoid the movie if they object to being proselytized by a film. No one can claim they didn't know what they were going to see in "Passion.". Some here have called it propaganda, and I've asked what movies are NOT propaganda! Directors always have a point of view that they want to get across to the audience. Mel is very up front about the reason he made "The Passion."

I don't know that Gibson has no ulterior motive, but have never heard that he has anything to do with Christian Reconstructionists or other theocrats. After all, he's Catholic, and Protestant fundies hate Catholics, call us idol worshippers, think we worship Mary, etc.

To most people, I think it's just a movie, as you said.

:shrug:

[KoKo]

15. It's hard to know how it will all sort out. It could cause some stirrings

of anger or hate in the Right Wingers (Constructionists and evangelicals who aren't construtionists but full of passion). And the ones who support Bush in the House and Senate who persecuted Clinton and caused the suffering of our Country and Democrats in General with their constant hatefulness, will probably find a way to use this movie to their advantage by playing to the hype and controversy swirling around it. There's also a huge commercial factor here, imho. Gibson is not opposed to making a few bucks I'm sure.

As I said, I hope that level heads who aren't into as much of the dark side of life as we can be here on DU because we suffer our own pain of "knowing too much, about too much," will not look at the movie as anything but an Easter movie about Good Friday. I don't plan to see it because I'm not fond of violence in movies in general and gratuitous violence and suffering, even if it's for religious purposes, isn't something I can handle right now.

As I said, Dem Bones, I was taught that Jesus knew he would suffer and gave clues of it to his disciples. So, the emphasis was not as strongly on the Passion and Suffering and indeed the Eucharist was not the main emphasis in the Episcopal Church when I was attending Sunday School and church all those years. It was in the l970's when the Eucharist took prominence again, because there was much thought given in the church heirarchy of reuniting with the Catholics and Lutherans at some point in the future.

I am more "Old School Episcopal." I've never accepted the Eucharist as the sole purpose of church attendance but see as "a part" of the purpose of attendance, worship and faith because of my foundations. So, I would probably not feel in the movie what you would feel being a Catholic. I would seem to you closer to Lutheran or Presbyterian in where I stand. Although Presbyterians are more evangelical in their approach to their faith than I would be.

Thanks for the discussion. I'm tired and probably not giving the most carefully thought out answers I could have. But, you have contributed
some excellent points. :-)'s Peace.

[lumpy]

20. iIwas confirmed in the Episcopal Church.

Raised in a 'mission' Church and attended both, including 'high' Church for many years. The Eucharist and other sacraments were heavily emphasized in high Church while the mission Church were used to primarily emphasize the basics of Christ's teaching to gather in adherants, i.e. His words Love thy neighbor, the Life everlasting promise and the joy to be found in Jesus. Shall we say, a happier atmosphere compared to Cathedral formats that seemed to dwell on praying for absolution of original sin etc, overcoming the guilt trip, heavy on the incense. Although I no longer attend as I have found my own spiritual path and I am grateful for having had the Church education. Actually having witnessed a great deal of hypocrisy was the kicker. I went on to exploring other concepts and tried to take the best from all and found a sense of relief in finding my own 'self'.

[KoKo]

27. Thanks Lumpy! Your perspective is interesting. And, closer to my own

Episcopal experience. I think some of us knew to take the "Wiseness/Goodness of Message, Parables for Life's Lessons" from our religious experience as children, and whether we left the church or stayed with it, it gave us a foundation and guidelines which we try to stay with, whether we are "churched" (the new buzzword in religious circles) or "unchurched" at the moment.

Thanks!

[KoKo]

16. BTW, just wanted DU Fundamentalists to know I mean "extremist"

Fundamentalists. I should have qualified my statements instead of making the assumption that folks would know what I meant. Sorry about that...:-(

[Ilsa]

18. I'm already hearing comments like, "Everyone should see this..."

"Everyone should see this movie", even though I have explained that

1) there are some very deeply religious Christian people who are simply too tenderhearted to see this;

2) for some people, the emphasis on pain distracts from the message of an abstract message of redemption of all sin, past, present, and future, and they don't want another person's idea of what that is, they are satisfied with their own;

3) some people don't want to give Mel Gibson their money. They feel that if Mel Gibson is truly interested in saving souls, he shouldn't charge admission.

What I'm waiting to hear specifically from the extremists now is that you aren't really a Christian unless you're willing to sit through this, cry like a baby, make the altar call, etc. I fear judgementalism is on its way.

[Generic Other]

21. I won't bother seeing the film but am puzzled by its focus

I heard that it is depicting 12 hours of Christ's "passion." Now, a little basic math tells me that if you include his final breath we are talking about sometime between Thursday and Good Friday. The time between sentencing and the last gasps on the cross. Nothing about the teachings of the man or of his message of redemption and resurrection occur during this period of time. Just the bloody moments in between the significant statements/and or claims made by the man and his followers.

So what's the message in this film? That a man suffered a horrible fate? And every one should flock to partake in the shame? Those who go to watch the film may be the devout. Or, they may be the same as those who flocked to watch the original. I personally can't see much difference. A lynchmob is a lynchmob. People who gain gratification out viewing of other people's misery are sadists not practicing their faith.

Would these same individuals watch a film where they actually were challenged to learn about Christ's teachings, or to apply those lessons to their lives? Or are those ideas simply too complex to fit into their worldview? These people are the same who carry Christ before them into battle, persecute others in his name, and ignore his message of compassion for the poor and downtrodden. They are the ones who make up this film's audience.

Those who flock to this bloody film are truly the ones who killed Christ.

on edit: typos

[supernova]

22. A word about Presbyterians and "evangelical"

While the Presbyterian Church, USA is a mission-oriented church, Presbyterians as individuals, myself included, are not "evangelical" in the same way fundamentalist evangelicals are. I mention this, because this most popular definitions of "evangelical" is what we use at DU.

We Presbys do not engage in "witnessing" to individuals, and indeed would be embarassed to be seen doing so. We are a rather quiet, do as you please kind of church. The exact same jokes Garrison Keillor makes about "Evangelical Lutherans" can also be made about us Presbys. :7

Think Mr Rogers, make that Rev. Mr Rogers of PCUSA, rather than John Ashcroft.

Don't mean to highjack your thread, KoKo, but I've seen this comparison come up in several religion threads lately and just wanted to clarify.

edit: as for the movie, I hope all the hype blows over sooner rather than later. I think the jury's still out on whether this movie has any theological value or artistic merit. If I see it, it'll be on DVD.

[Ilsa]

23. Thanks for making that distinction.

I am also PCUSA. I think most people would be surprised at the degree of medical missions, no conversion required for aid.

(edited because I keep posting before realizing my sentences are incomplete. Duh.)

[KoKo]

24. Thanks SuperNova! Glad you noted the distinction. Not all Presbyterians

support "witness." Not all Baptists support "witness," and they are always accused of being in "lock step" with that extemist group here in Wake Forest who are Bush's best buddies. Almost all the Protestant Faiths seem to have left wings, right wings and those in the middle. Just as our Political Situation seems to be these days. I think it's tearing us apart, but when it sorts out some good will hopefully come of it all.

It's hard to keep up with all the distinctions. I was trying to address "extremes" of both sides. It's not always a perfect way of having a discussion, either, because some folks wouldn't necessarily see themselves as "extreme." But, given that this is "Democratic Underground" I tend to go with the thought that we were (at least at one time) perhaps more inclusive and tolerant here, than the outside world.;-)

[Dr Fate]

26. I agree. In fact, all the hand-wringing helped Mel w/ free publicity...

...all the Liberals who acted like Jerry Fawell helped Mel promote this movie...