Did OBL really attack America?

[oneighty]

Is OBL guilty as charged in orchestrating an "Attack on America?" Is there proof of his guilt? Will he (if still alive)and captured have his day in court? What court if he is tried? International? United States?

Was the attack on the WTC an attack on America or an attack on World Trade? Would the WTC have been targeted if located in-let us say Tokyo for example?

Certainly the attack on the Pentagon was an strike against America's foreign policy. I would not argue that.

What do people here think?

180

[kalian]

1. Ahem....

First things first... :tinfoilhat:
Now that's on, let's begin.

There are many theories out there so you have to take your pick.
The first thing that I would like to remind everyone is that one
of the first things that shrub did, when he gave his speech before
the UN, was to "warn" against believing those "vast conspiracy
theories". My question to that is: Why did he state this...?

There hasn't been a SINGLE shred of evidence provided to the public.
The ONLY thing that we have received is the "information" that
the government wants us to know...because of "national security"
we, as citizens, are not allowed to know everything...

I'm sure that many DUers will subsequently post various links to
various websites that cover just about every single aspect of
9/11, OBL and the subsequent "war on terror".

What do I believe? Let's just say that the whole 9/11 "event" was
a staged event. It was executed in such a manner that would cause
maximum psychological impact on the American psyche (and IMHO it
worked...). Once that was accomplished, the administration proceeded
to drive through its agenda.

Seek and ye shall find... Google is your friend... ;)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. John Pilger: "In search of another Pearl Harbor..."

<http://www.coldtype.net/Assets/Pilger/JP.02.%20Dec%2012%20.pdf>

[mot78]

2. Good grief

We have enough proof it was OBL. I don't want this to become another nut-case MIHOP thread.

[waterman]

5. What, exactly, would that 'proof' be. That shit you heard on your tv box?

[_Jumper_]

11. Didn't you see it?

He confessed to it while wearing a US Army surplus jacket. ;)

[waterman]

12. How's your arabic? Can you verify what was said or taking on faith?

[_Jumper_]

15. I was being sarcastic

I believe the Bush regime was involved in the attacks, even if only via proxies.

[waterman]

26. Oooops, sorry. Guess we need a special sarcasm font around here....

My bad. Should've known.

[_Jumper_]

27. NP

n/t

[radwriter0555]

6. There is no 'proof' whatsoever that OBL perped 9.11, just bush regime

conjecture.

In OBL's last interview in October 2001, he specifically said he didn't plan and carry out 9.11, although he knew about it.

That's the interview that the bush regime released in December 2001, shortly before OBL's death, in the 3rd week of December, as reported in middle east papers on December 25th.

I heard about the interview in October, when it was made, and found it interesting how long the bush regime kept it under wraps, since the foreign papers had a translation of it immediately.

[frylock]

7. please post credible links with that proof..

and not links of Phat Osama ramming his hand into his palm simulating the attack.

[leesa]

40. What is your proof? There has been no non-circumstial proof

offered ever. Blair promised definitive proof, but it never came out.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. "We" who? Got a mouse in your pocket?

[mac2]

74. We do? What from Johnie "Ass" croft and Tony "Hot Air" Blair?

[radwriter0555]

3. The FBI doesn't think so. Check their "Most Wanted" page on OBL...

no mention of 9.11 at all.

Go figure.

[waterman]

4. Well, I just happened to have this handy. It's very long but it sure is a

great piece of investigating:

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.org/stranger_than_fiction.htm


Some of it seems to be a reach, but there sure is a pattern here. Try to hang in there, or at least scan good before rejecting, cause I think he's on to something.

[waterman]

8. And this site happens to be only one of many that carried this story so

don't let the site itself scare you away.

[oneighty]

13. Thanks

Major reading project there. I bookmarked it.

180

[mac2]

70. This is now a book ...Stranger Than Fiction by Pastore

I read it and heard his interview. All the references from speeches, articles,and media are there. He didn't make them up. I read some of them myself and wondered why no one investigated it.

Bin Laden is a Bush family friend. He said, he didn't do it.

How could they? It would have involved too many sectors of our defense forces not to respond as they did. It involved our government somehow...with whom? It was a huge operation involving many people. The planes have hijacking devices never used, black boxes missing,no investigations allowed by Bush...DA!!

The dots lead to Bush crime family.

We all have so many questions. Seems even the President is above the law.

[Kazak]

9. Did Bush* really attack America?

Say it isn't so.

[mmm]

10. The US was the major orchestrator

This accounts for the 24/7 full-court press cover up.
Bin Laden may or may not have been involved.
"Al Qaida" would have attacked Israel, not the US.

[waterman]

14. "The US was the major orchestrator"

and/or Isreal perhaps. Read link (or some of it) on post 4.

[_Jumper_]

16. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia

They were involved, especially Pakistan. Pakistan clearly was involved in 9/11. SA has an excuse that may be 5% legitimate.

[mopinko]

23. they attacked the same building once

proven in open court. they have attacked u.s. embassies around the world. not that this is proof, re 9/11. just that your assertion that they would have attacked isreal is ridiculous.

[JasonDeter]

17. I'm sorry but these kinds of threads should be locked.

No matter what you think of bush*, I would raise you one, but to put on this tinfoil hat is too much.

[_Jumper_]

18. No it isn't

The official story is clearly a sham.

[JasonDeter]

34. Did bush* blow it keeping America safe? YES. But

there is clearly enough evidence to link al queda to the 9/11 attacks and bin laden is head of al queda. Now unless you think like the bush* cabal does that like bush* bin laden isn't responsible for the actions of his cabal, then ok whatever you say.

[_Jumper_]

36. Al-Qaeda may be linked to the BFEE

What evidence is there of an Al-Qaeda 9/11 link anyway, though?

[leesa]

43. But what is the evidence? Just because Faux, Bush, CNN and Rumsfeld

say so? After they've lied to us say....10,000 times? No evidence has been produced at all.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Please don't insult our intelligence with your defense of Junior.

[JasonDeter]

65. How you LEAPED to that conclusion is beyond me.

Here let me put on my tinfoil hat...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. It's rather obvious why I leaped to that conclusion...

...anyone that continues to believe at this point in time, in light of all of the available evidence, that the NeoCons did not know what was happening on 911 has to support/defend the NeoCon "OBL/Al Qaeda did it" theory.

Quite frankly, you can do whatever you wish with your tinfoil hat as long as it makes you happy. I have a few suggestions, but the mods tend to frown on posts that are painfully honest.

[JasonDeter]

79. The number of people involved in your little conspiracy is staggering.

And quite frankly, you can do whatever you wish with your opinion of what I should do with my tinfoil hat as long as it makes you happy. I have a few suggestions, but the mods tend to frown on posts that are painfully honest.

I hope you laugh at mine, I laughed at yours!

[zonmoy]

58. bin laden

doesnt he work for our own cia thus making our own security aparatus the actuall ones behind the attack.

[waterman]

19. After 30 years, we still don't have the story on JFK and you want to jump

right in and believe the first thing thrown in your face? That's what they're counting on. Don't be such a sucker.

[rfranklin]

21. Present your proof or shut your mouth...

Thank you kindly.

[JasonDeter]

35. Your asking me to believe something I think is a fairytale.

And you want me to prove you wrong? I think the ball is in your court. The WORLD knew where the attacks came from and you want me to believe your small small very small minority view? And you want me to prove it!? bin laden did it. I thik he should be captured and stuck in a cell with a dozen pigs for the rest of his life.

[ParanoidPat]

45. Jason, what do you base your 'belief' on?

Is it a spiritual thing requiring no proof? :shrug:
When you throw out a tired old platitude such as "The WORLD knew..." without mentioning how the entire world formed it's opinion it shows a lack of critical thinking applied to the response. No one is asking you to prove them wrong per se. They are asking you for the information that you (and the rest of the world according to you) based your 'belief' on. :)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Just as I suspected. You have no evidence to support your theory,...

...and wildly claiming that "the WORLD knew where the attacks came from" is not helping your cause in the least.

The truth of the matter is that most of the world outside the U. S. believes that the events of 911 go way beyond some simplistic, self-serving NeoCon statement that "OBL/Al Qaeda did it". The truth of the matter is that the NeoCon explanation is the REAL "fairy tale". Even the FBI admits that it has nothing conclusive to identify the hijackers and/or who was responsible for the 911 attacks.

Prove that OBL/Al Qaeda conducted the attacks of 911, or quit wasting our time.

[waterman]

22. Locked why? Cause they make you uncomfortable? Maybe you shouldn't

read them, then.

[oneighty]

24. Read more carefully.

I do not make any accusations. I ask some questions. Do you have an opinion to offer?

Do you think WTC would have been targeted if located in a country other than The United States of America?

I am not blaming Bush* for this.

180

[JasonDeter]

39. Well you should blame bush* for this!

It was the policies of the republican party and his daddy along with that skunk ronald reagan that brought 9/11 on America! And further the policies of this pathetic warmongering republican puke bush* is further putting America in danger! I have no use for bin laden and bush*, they are cut from the same cloth, they are both war criminals and should be tried before the Hague and FOUND GUILTY and bin laden jailed with a pig the rest of his life and bush* put in a padded cell with absolutely no sound allowed so he can be alone with his thoughts to ponder his actions. And the point of the WTC attack was it WAS an attack on America.

[_Jumper_]

44. Why was it just Reagan and Bush?

They hate us because of bipartisan ME policies over the decades.

[JasonDeter]

57. The Reagan/Bush policies on Afganistan created al queda

And I wonder if the bush* cabal postponed release of the Reagan papers so the embarrassing Reagan/bin laden association won't be a topic of discussion post 9/11? Having said all that it would be nice to have THESE questions answered:

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/topic.php?tid=44

[oneighty]

56. No where have I asked

if Bush* is responsible for the attack on the WTC. And no, I will not blame Bush* for this. Matter of fact I will not blame OBL either as I have no personal information showing his involvement.

I ask if captured where will OBL be tried. I ask if WTC were in a country other than the United States of America would it have been targeted.

Please address those questions. Do not be drawn off subject.

Thank you.

180

[FatSlob]

31. Agreed.

This is absurd. Let's give Freepers something to laugh and come up with tinfoil hat theories about Bush causing the WTC to fall.

[oneighty]

38. I will say it again.

Read my post. I am not accusing Bush* or anybody else of anything. I am asking some good questions. Can you offer an opinion responding to the questions.

180

[bobbyboucher]

33. Who are you again?

Keep apologizing and keep that mind closed.

Prove Bin Laden was directly involved.

[JasonDeter]

42. Ok, let me rephrase it.

This thread should be locked. I'm not apologizing for anything.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. "Too much"?? In your opinion, but not mine.

[thebigidea]

81. what a shame you're not in charge, huh?

[ParanoidPat]

20. Salon sure didn't think so in 1998.....

.....when Bill Clinton was trying to kill him! :evilgrin:

From Salon.com

Is bin Laden a terrorist mastermind --
or a fall guy?

The Clinton administration accuses Saudi renegade Osama bin Laden of being directly responsible for almost every terrorist act of the last decade. But where's the evidence?

BY LOREN JENKINS
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Our target was terror. Our mission was clear."
-- President Clinton, Aug. 20, 1998

To the litany of terrorist acts that President Clinton laid at the feet of renegade Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden in justification of his cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan and the Sudan last week, the administration has now alleged a murky plot to assassinate the president as well.

The alleged plot against Clinton was to have taken place when he was to have visited Pakistan. The anonymous intelligence sources that have made such an industry in bin Laden revelations this week acknowledge that the plot never went beyond the coffee-shop talking stage.

But the charge helped to reinforce the president's claims that bin Laden is "perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today," and that there was "compelling" -- if unrevealable -- evidence that a network of terrorist groups he controlled was planning "further attacks against Americans and other freedom-loving groups."

At a time when presidential veracity is at an all-time low, one might have wished that the president and his national security advisors had laid out in detail just what was the "compelling evidence" that led the United States to launch some 75 missiles at two sovereign nations.

As it is, the public, both here in the United States and in the more critical world at large, is being asked to take a giant Kierkegaardian leap of faith in the president's claims. Given Clinton's recent track record in the "trust me" department, this is a lot to demand.

<More> Well worth the read! :)

[waterman]

25. Damn, just when I thought this was a boring day at DU...

Then THIS thread comes along. Whew, I can feel my face heating up. I need a beer.

[ParanoidPat]

29. I think I'll join you.....

.....:toast: :beer: So have you heard anything about who it was that placed all of those 'put' options on American Airlines, Delta, the WTC insurance companies etc. in the days just before 9/11/2001? :shrug: :)

I've been searching for an answer to that question for a couple of years now and........:evilfrown:

[waterman]

30. Nope, but someone's gotta be sweating bullets, or pellets or bbs

at this point. Those paper trails don't always become active right away. And the beer's on me, by the way.

[_Jumper_]

32. Yeah, who was it?

Were they mostly Americans?

[ParanoidPat]

37. Who knows?

Perhaps someone on the 9/11 commission will ask Bush* during his hour behind closed doors! :evilfrown:
Have a beer! :beer: It's on Nancy! :toast: (Sorry, I couldn't resist! :evilgrin: :spank: )

[Dover]

73. Saw an article about that fairly recently saying they had closed their

investigation of those suspicious trades. No conclusions, just closed.

[ParanoidPat]

80. This is weird, I just Googled "put options", investigation, 911.....

.....on Google News looking for that story and got NO hits. I removed the reference to 911 and only got 8 hits, none of which has anything to do with 9/11.
It looks like the press has NEVER covered an investigation of put options from 9/11! :evilfrown: (We ALL know that they have!)

If you Google "put options", investigation, 911 on the web you get 614 hits with many references to this story,

FTW, October 9, 2001 - Although uniformly ignored by the mainstream U.S. media, there is abundant and clear evidence that a number of transactions in financial markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the case of at least one of these trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the "put options" on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by the man who is now in the number three Executive Director position at the Central Intelligence Agency. Until 1997 A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard had been Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown. A.B. Brown was acquired by Banker's Trust in 1997. Krongard then became, as part of the merger, Vice Chairman of Banker's Trust-AB Brown, one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin this year as being connected to money laundering. Krongard's last position at Banker's Trust (BT) was to oversee "private client relations." In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the laundering of drug money.

Krongard (re?) joined the CIA in 1998 as counsel to CIA Director George Tenet. He was promoted to CIA Executive Director by President Bush in March of this year. BT was acquired by Deutsche Bank in 1999. The combined firm is the single largest bank in Europe.á And, as we shall see, Deutsche Bank played several key roles in events connected to the September 11 attacks.

<More>

Is it time to dust off my :tinfoilhat: :shrug:

[pinniped]

82. Probably Poindexter.

The same guy that wanted to make money on the terrorist futures market thing.

Oh ya, and in all fairness the OBL trial if held for whatever the charges are should be at an international court. The AWOL chimp and bunker chainknee's trial should also be at an international court.

I too would like to see some "REAL" evidence and not some Hollywood actor dressed up in an olive drab jacket and a white beard.

It is not wrong to demand to see evidence, even from the .gov.

[KG]

28. i've seen nothing to link OBL and 9-11

only the claims of a junta that is incapable of telling the truth about anything and is bent on blocking any attempt to investigate what happened that day.

no doubt, OBL is a bad guy, and has made threats against the US, but nothing like real proof has been found or seems to be forthcoming.

[Deja Q]

41. Yes, but bushbastard* didn't care.

The one thing we do unequivocally know is that bushbastard* knew there were planned hijackings. He decided to do nothing, probably thinking his usual callous remarks about the american people.

Whether he knew they were going to ram them into a building is another matter, but irrelevant. He didn't give a fuck about the people at the time. I suppose the fear induced in hijackings really isn't real... :eyes:

[Darth_Ole]

46. bin Laden and Al-Qaeda orchestrated the 9/11 attacks.

If we keep bringing up this topics, Americans will see us as wackos.

[jus_the_facts]

51. Yeah sure.....just like they SEE how horrible bush is?

....most 'Murikans only see what they're TOLD to see...and that's almost an impossiblity when their heads are shoved up their collective asses. :eyes:

[ParanoidPat]

59. A year ago that's what many here said about Black Box Voting!

What a difference a year and some exposure to the facts makes! :evilgrin:

[radwriter0555]

64. Then WHY Doesn't the FBI AGREE WITH YOU???

Check the FBI's most wanted page on OBL. NO MENTION OF 9.11.

[number6]

47. where's the proof ??

Is OBL guilty as charged in orchestrating an "Attack on America?"

Embassies in Africa / probably yes

911 - one small nut in a big bag

is OBL the mastermind or Sheik Khalid Mohammed ?

who is the 911 mastermind this month ??

[Disturbed]

48. What Americans?

Seems to me what has been asked is for someone to provided hard evidence. Hard evidence isn't conjecture, it is comprised of facts.

[Don Claybrook]

50. It's amazing to see how many people are afraid of the truth

First off, I don't claim to know what the truth is regarding this matter. I have questions and suspicions, but like everyone else, I have no proof.

But reading the responses to this thread has been an eye-opening experience. There are several people who think the thread should be locked or that we'll look bad to the Freepers (when did we ever care about that, by the way?). When asked to provide their rationale for believing that it was bin Laden, none of these people can come up with a single shred of evidence. As has been pointed out by others, the Bush Administration SAID it was bin Laden, but they lie about everything. Outside of that, there has been no proof provided to anyone anywhere about the culpability of bin Laden.

Almost as interesting as the question of who carried out the 9/11 attacks is the observation that some people apparently have no regard for finding out the real answer to a question. Maybe it makes people uncomfortable. Maybe there's a herd mentality, i.e., everyone else says so, therefore it must be true. Whatever the case, it's clear that some are afraid to have serious questions answered.

Ponderous.

[NNN0LHI]

52. US split on Bin Laden evidence

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563958.stm

<snip>It was on Sunday, in the NBC television news show Meet The Press that Secretary of State Colin Powell put it quite clearly:

"I think in the near future, we'll be able to put out a paper, a document, that will describe quite clearly the evidence that we have linking to this attack," he told his interviewer.

Less than 24 hours later, President Bush failed to endorse the idea.

Colin Powell then quickly backtracked.

"As we are able to provide information that is not sensitive or classified, I think we will try to do that in every way," he said - a much more cautious approach.

What is not clear is how much information - classified or otherwise - points directly to Bin Laden or the network he heads, al Qaeda.

more

[sweetheart]

60. A coincidence about his attack

A conference was taking place above where the first plane hit, and
nobody survives. This conference was publicly advertised for long
in advance and was for the core ownership-transfer international
financial markets protocol aspiring for trade-to-settle market-standard
protocol for all the nations of the world Not a single
person at the FIX conference survived the attack.
www.fixprotocol.org.
Planning the attack to decapitate the American globalization-of-finance
protocol and its leaders. They got some of them.

The attack was on "empire" and the "kings of empire". Building to
this time, America had just used financial engineering to wage
successful covert warfare on Thailand, Korea, Argentina, Russia,
Mexico and others. The world trade center was a command and
control post for these credit markets used in war. If, in warfare,
you strike the weapons installations-only of your enemy, to strike
the
WTC fits an intelligent attacker intent or reprimanding organizational
behavior.

Financial destabilization is the cheapest and most cutthroat means of
world war. It allows you to conquer an empire without firing a
bullet. The tower from where these things were "preached" to the
western common of men, how symbolic.

The nosecone of the first aircraft breached the first building where
my root guru's business office was for a decade while i knew him.
In that sense, it was a symbolic attack on my western pro-progressive
school of Buddhism.

Since Bin Laden took the towers out, US financial empire was visibly
destabilized, and may never return, as the dollar collapses
continues. If these financial destructions of other economies
count as war, then the WTC was the HQ central.

Osama bin laden is a jedi knight to his people. He has poked the
infidel in the eye and lived to tell. By predicting his opponent,
he has achieved most all of his demands for planned elimination of
troops in the middle east, bankrupting US power and gifting him a
festering civil war in his back yard.

I suspect they know where he is, and are attempting active
surveillance of all comms channels to his network. By listening to
him, they can actually keep things safer, than if they take him and
command shifts. For spook-think, a bugged OBL is a gift, as his
every crime is taken down from above.

Osama is true to his god, just like bush. They both think they are
pure warriors for righteousness. Osama was trained by the CIA to
wage highly effective covert warfare across borders. This cat is no
simpleton, and we'll surely see more from him thanks to Herr AWOL.

[oneighty]

61. Yes.

Thank you sweetheart. An answer I was looking for. Now comment please on where the OBL trial should held if he is captured alive.

180

[sweetheart]

63. Televised live worldwide

From wherever the international court processes its criminals. He
is not special. During the trial, is where we have to defeat Bin
Laden, and he has some very real arguments to make that will be
inflationary and stirr things up. If he makes an impeccable defense
of his motives, then the trial will immortalize him. Thus the
argument of his trial should challenge his islam, his politics his
rationale airing all viewpoints.

Get him an excellent defense team of good islamic lawyers and the lot
and beat them using modern liberalism and law. Having to beat him
morally will shine some serious light on past american actions which
trained bin laden and his true family connections and the saudi conundrum.

I don't think the american administration could stand a public trial
of bin laden. I'll wager he can speak a coherent argument that has
billions of people buying his line. If you can't beat him on air,
then you'll never defeat his clones.

I have stood for a trial for bin laden from the outset, so that his
motives can be put on public view, that his case can be made that his
own followers will agree, and then see that case disproved, that they
see honest justice done, and not kangaroo courts.

The trial should be in switzerland, belgium, holland. If they don't
give him a fair trial and soundly defeat him, they risk a riot. However, methinks a good prosecutor could probably take OBL and
his arguments for action on in public.

[_Jumper_]

66. With what evidence?

What evidence would that prosecutor use?

[sweetheart]

83. Do you honestly think there is no evidence?

I suspect that there is some that would convict him. A courtroom
would put all these things for public scrutiny and allow us as a
planet to bury bin ladin and his night of the long knives with
him..

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. OBL will never live to appear at any trial...

...he knows too much, and it all points back to the NeoCons.

[mopaul]

62. that's the official white house story, so i don't believe it

whatever the white house says, it's not true. the fact that they had all the 'hijackers' faces and names on t.v. the very next day made me instantly suspect.

my insane opinion is, bushco did it. and if someone thinks this type of opinion should be 'locked' from these forums...too fucking bad

[King_Crimson]

69. Here's some back-up MoPaul...

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm

[mac2]

71. MoPaul..very funny

[troublemaker]

67. A "reply" from an "interested" reader.

Is OBL guilty as charged in orchestrating an "Attack on America?"

Yes. Why the hell would anyone put quotes around "Attack on America?" Attack is pretty straightforward. The America part clear cut. Is "on" the problem? Okay... It was an attack *upon* America.

There are plenty of worthwhile or at least amusing conspiracies out there. 'Osama didn't do it' isn't one of them.

Seriously, folks. Having watched these Bush people fuck up everything they've touched, why think they could manage a global conspiracy?

Glad to have been of assistance.

[oneighty]

68. Hmmmmm

Maybe I dream it!

Does not Bush* refer to "Attack on America"? I should perhaps say , "Quoting Bush*" Then I would be more correct. Yes?

180

[mac2]

72. They had eight years to plan it.

It was another Pearl Harbor. Ask your self (as an good detective does for a crime) who profited? It was a "Trifecta" for a lot of leaders...including Bush/Blair/Sharon.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. Can you offer any evidence that OBL did it?...

If you can, then you truly will be of assistance.