Moran unloads $42,000 life's savings to buy out "Passion" screenings

[Paragon]

http://www.accesshollywood.com/entertainment/2880732/detail.html

Access Hollywood's Nancy O'Dell put a surprised Mel Gibson on the phone with Arch Bonnema, the Plano, Texas man who purchased 6,000 tickets at a price of $42,000 to Gibson's film, "The Passion of The Christ" so that fellow parishioners at his local Baptist church, theology students and others could see the film.

Gibson, who had not yet heard about Bonnema's $42,000 ticket purchase, told Nancy it was "amazing" that someone would do something so selfless.

Later, in a phone conversation with the Plano native, Gibson told Bonnema: "I appreciate your enthusiasm. I really appreciate what you're doing…and if it made a difference to you that's wonderful."

Gibson then added with a laugh, "With all those tickets, I hope they are giving you free popcorn!"

"If I had to spend every penny I ever made, it would not have been a sacrifice. This movie is about a sacrifice," an elated Bonnema told Access after his conversation with Gibson...(more)

[BlackVelvetElvis]

1. WWJD with $42,000?

not that.

[Eric J in MN]

106. BlackVelvetElvis - whose photo is in your post? (nt)

nt

[BlackVelvetElvis]

108. Freddie Mercury

[RoadRunner]

196. I don't know what Jenna would drink

but I'm sure it would be fun!



Source: http://politicalhumor.about.com

[anarchy1999]

237. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE END THIS POST AND START PART II?

n/t

The pain.............

[anarchy1999]

238. In addition, first posted at DU here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1162730

Posted 9:00pm CST Feb 25 -0----

Thousands attend Plano 'Passion' showings

06:09 PM CST on Wednesday, February 25, 2004

By KIMBERLY DURNAN / Dallas Web Staff

PLANO – Thousands of Dallas-area residents began Ash Wednesday by becoming some of the first in the nation to attend early morning screenings of The Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson's long-awaited film depicting Jesus’ final day.

Noshing on doughnuts, coffee and traditional film fare like popcorn in the lobby of the Cinemark Tinseltown, the North Texans began viewing the film after midnight. They were there as guests of Arch Bonnema of Plano, who rented the entire theater complex for $42,000 so fellow parishioners at Prestonwood Baptist Church, theology students and others could share the experience.

snip:
The Rev. Jack Graham, pastor at Prestonwood Baptist, dismissed the idea that the film was anti-Semitic. “Mel Gibson shows clearly that Jesus voluntarily gave his life. It’s a sacrifice for sin,” he said.

Graham said he expected the movie to be popular across many cultures.

“We know we’ve never seen anything like this in a religious film. The impact is yet to be seen. I’m prayerful in terms of social impact, Christians will be bolder in their faith and more committed in Christ and the good news,” said Graham, who also is president of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention.

snip:
Headmaster Larry Taylor helped chaperone more than 200 high school students from Prestonwood Christian Academy. He said the parents understood the violent nature of the film and had signed a waiver allowing their children to view it.

“In our opinion, the R-rating stands for ‘real’. It’s a real visual for a true story,” he said.
For all the rest go to:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/022504dn...


Fun little tidbit about this "Mega-Church":

Last year, a few members of the North Texas Coalition for a Just Peace, decided this would be a good place to stage a protest on a Sunday morning (it was shortly after the bombs had started to fall if I remember correctly). There were probably 10-15 people and they had a banner that read "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" One of those gathered in the protest was actually a member of Prestonwood and was a volunteer serving some function with the childrens department.

They arrived early in the am and the Plano Police showed up. The protesters shared coffee and doughnuts with them and everything was okay. No problems. A little while later one of the many pastors' of the church showed up to tell them they HAD to LEAVE. The message and their presence was disturbing those coming to church that morning.

This group did leave, but the most disturbing part of all, was that this one person was fired from her volunteer position and as a result of that action no longer felt welcome in this "place of worship" and sought another church. Great bunch of people here (lots of sarcasm).

View Pictures of this place here (then run as fast as you can, in the other direction). We actually watched this place being built and for some time thought it was some type of airport hangar or big corporate manufacturing place. We worked only a couple of blocks away:

http://www.rogerhoganstudios.com/special_projects/prestonwood.html

Plano is a truly frightening place in this country.

We mostly just find it incredibly sad. We think those that worship at Prestonwood just might be missing at least a message or two from Jesus. And yes, we have actually been inside. My mother-in-law just had to go. This little church has a really "rich" little history. The pastor that founded this little church wound up being disgraced in a scandal involving another woman (go figure) and I think he may have either died tragically or actually offed himself. Oh, and Mary Kay herself was one of the original major donors in the beginning.
Long before the scandal, when it was not quite yet a mega-church.

[BlueStateGirl]

288. HIre a lawyer and sue the Religious Right for defamation of character

[northernsoul]

2. gotta love the free market in action!

A moran and his $$$ are soon parted.

I wonder how elated Mr. Bonnema is going to feel when he's living under a bridge and eating Alpo because the Repubs destroyed social security and he pissed his life savings away on movie tickets.

[LiberalFighter]

9. He can always remember what the movie did to his life!

[aquart]

16. It wasn't his life savings.

He said, "IF I had to spend every penny I made." IF. He has more where that came from.

Read it again.

[Paragon]

28. Nancy O'Dell seems to think it is

Watch the video with her and Mel.

And the quote from the article is ""If I had to spend every penny I ever made, it would not have been a sacrifice."

Hmmm...curious how you left that out...

[tedzbear]

32. The extra "ever" doesn't change the meaning.

It's still the same thought. Also, moran is spelled "moron."

[Paragon]

38. Sure it does.

And see post #10 for an explanation of "moran".

[gristy]

Here on DU it sure isn't!

LOL!

[OneTwentyoNine]

94. Emm...nope on DU it is definitely spelled moran--ask around....nt

[yankeedem]

35. Exactly correct

http://www.arcpa.org/cpe/financial_services_conferen.htm
He's a wingnut too. What a surprise.

His donation does have Bible Significance

"Matthew 19:21-24 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell a little of that thou hast, and give to Mel Gibson, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a man who has not seen the passion to enter into the kingdom of God."

Hey, I didn't write the book, don't talk to me.

[sendero]

213. Too bad...

.... only small fraction of Christians seem to believe the greed and money messages of the bible.

But they sure perk up when they read those homo admonitions!

[LiberalFighter]

36. You think someone was trying to imply...

that this guy was spending everything he had?

[northernsoul]

72. regardless, the man spent $42k on tickets to an S/M movie

and yes, I'm going to criticize the movie without seeing it because I don't watch snuff films

[GodHelpUsAll2]

170. Such intelligence

shown. But, this is typical of a society wheere no one thinks for themself anymore. What a pitty.

[maxrandb]

89. Nope, it he's a typical evangelical

that money came from scared little old ladies and sick, full of guilt sheep. I'm sure that he has several cadilacs and homes all paid for by the stupid people who he scams money from

[Randomthought]

3. Good

That's $42,000 that won't be going into Republican campaigns.

[wryter2000]

17. Good point, Random

Welcome to DU

:hi:

[MikeGalos]

25. Well, not all of it

but care to bet that a good percentage ends up there and helps gets Gibson his membership in Bush's Pioneer club for big donors?

[drdigi420]

4. theres a parishoner born every minute

[MI Cherie]

5. My goodness ...

... it is only a movie! A MOVIE!

Bet the corporations that own the studio are really "appreciative" of all the FREE publicity this MOVIE is getting!

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. No, it's not. That's what so many here don't get.

"Roots" was not just a TV mini-series either. Some things take on greater import.

Like it or not, this man did an act of Christian charity.

[Paragon]

10. Hi

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. He has a brain AND a heart

[Paragon]

20. Is this the...

..."only has enough blood to make one of them work at the same time" joke?

As someone said on Fark.com, "Good for him. Any man who would give up his entire life savings to increase the wealth of the movie industry truly is a saint."

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. They were both working

This movie changed his life. He wanted others to get the same benefit.

[ikojo]

166. Sad to say this pic was taken at a counter protest outside

the Boeing plant in St Charles, Missouri (near St Louis, MO). These mouth breathers were protesting an anti war group who was there to protest the weapons of mass destruction being manufactured at that plant.

Notice the mullett on the guy holding the morans sign. Enough said.

[Grins]

174. I LOVE this guy!!!!

I think this photo just epitomizes EVERYTHING I hate about the dark side.

This "Moran should be our poster child!

[Spentastic]

19. Christian charity?

That's the best he could come up with? I'm wonder if Jesus may have used the money diferently?

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Feeding the belly and feeding the soul

Many Christians view this movie as important. Clearly, he does. So he was intent on helping others do the same.

[Paragon]

63. Right - you feed the body FIRST

Anyone in a faith-based charity will tell you that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. He doesn't work for them

He did a good deed and many here want to attack him for it.

[belle]

107. You've seen this movie, then, I take it?

That part where the crow rips out the eyeballs of the thief, or the endless flaying with the barbed-metal cat-o-nine tails--flesh gobbets and blood spurting everywhere--that was really something to uplift the spirit, yah, you betcha. Certainly much better for the soul than, oh, say, a nice day of feasting and singing and praying or something.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

128. My sister-in-law saw it with her husband

and said it was an excuse to show horrific gore. She thought parts of it were interesting, but that the violence was pornographic.

[nolabels]

203. Its called lowering the threshold, becoming passe, something shock jocks..

sometimes never learn about till its too late. After one becomes acclimated to the phenomena of violence,loud noise or what have you, it or they lose much of their power or retrospectively audience, making murder and other uncivilized events non-starters (at least for the perpetrators).

http://www.dianarussell.com/pornasviolence.html
PORNOGRAPHY AS VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

"I don't need studies and statistics to tell me that there is a relationship between pornography and real violence against women. My body remembers." -- Woman's testimony, 1983.

"The relationship between particularly sexually violent images in the media and subsequent aggression...is much stronger statistically than the relationship between smoking and lung cancer." -- Edward Donnerstein, 1983.

When addressing the question of whether or not pornography causes rape, as well as other forms of sexual assault and violence, many people fail to acknowledge that the actual making of pornography sometimes involves, or even requires, violence and sexual assault. Testimony by women and men involved in such activity provide numerous examples of this (Public Hearings, 1983; Attorney General's Commission, 1986).
(snip)

[LiberalFighter]

215. Would they allow Janet Jackson to expose her breast if...

it depicted a story in the bible?

[nolabels]

226. They go after that spot between the ears first

Not that I am a student or such, but I kind of looked it up.

A thread about nekedness from some other board

http://www.christianforums.com/t84720&page=3
(snip

Most Bible students are unaware that it was in that early 1st Century setting that Jesus said:

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Take care to notice that in his commentary Jesus did not refute Hillel. He merely pointed out the other side of the coin which the good Rabbi had neglected.

Jesus by his affirmation essentially told the world Hillel got Levitucus 18:8 and Isaiah 47:1-3 correct. But he forgot all about Job 31:1-13:

Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man’s lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 "If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless— 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted. 9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door, 10 then may my wife grind another man’s grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me,
(snip)

[californiahippie]

266. Or...

Or feeding those who are dying of hunger everyday. I don't know, I am glad that people see something positive in the movie, I haven't seen it. I do think that money could have been better spent though, sorry.

[Deb-Ter]

268. belle

You didn't see it I take it...

There is less violence in this film than in most 'action' films of today. There is a deeper message in this film, there is love, forgivenss and hope expressed in this film. How, you ask? During the entire time Jesus is being arrested, brutalized, beaten and crucified he does nothing to prevent it, he only prays for forgiveness for the people doing this to him. Is there a greater message of love???? Is there a greater message of hope for us???? (Of course, keep in mind that I am viewing this as a Christian...) Can you imagine how much God had to love us to endure what he did just to save us from ourselves???

[AgadorSparticus]

160. definition of charity

Good deed or pushing his own agenda? $42,000 can feed alot of people, help alot of homeless and assist victims of violence...that's charity to me. It is non sectarian and universal--the essence of "god". Pushing a movie is not. It is a an agenda. JMHO....

[Muddleoftheroad]

163. $42,000 can also buy a nice car for him

He didn't do that. He found the movie had great impact on his life and wanted to aid others. That's charity.

[RapidCreek]

201. 42 grand can buy a whole lot of hungry people a meal

as well. Somehow I have the feeling that that is how christ would define charity.

RC

[Columbia]

202. John 6:27-29, 32-35

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meant which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from Heaven.

For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life, he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

[RapidCreek]

206. Unfortunately that life he gaveth unto the world requires

food and drink to continue...not faith. Tell you what chief. I'll lock you in a room with nothing but your bible a TV, VCR and pile of Pat Robertson tapes..we'll see how long that keeps you alive.

What a load of crap.

RC

[Muddleoftheroad]

209. So faith now is a load of crap

Quite typical commentary at least.

[RapidCreek]

210. Your lack of any sort of logical response is quite typical as well

I didn't say faith was crap....you said that. The similarities in argumentative technique between your own and the right wing is quite entertaining. Obvious, predicatable and weak but entertaining.

RC

[Nashvilliberal]

214. Would you prefer that all Christians leave the Democratic party?

You seem to have little respect for Christians. Does that mean that you won't be voting for the Democratic candidate for President against Bush? Kerry...is...a...Catholic Christian.

[RapidCreek]

258. I have little respect for Christians?

Again...that's something you said...not something I said. You seem to have a habit of reframing the discussion in your own terms and arguing against a position which was never stated.

What I have little respect for is inanity....Christian or non-Christian, it makes no difference.

The fact that you avoid addressing anything I have written makes quite clear your inability to do so.

RC

[Nashvilliberal]

260. Thanks for respecting an American's freedom of religious choice

Sorry if I got that wrong...I said that you SEEM to have little respect for Christians, which I inferred based on your posts, but now I can see I misunderstood.

As to inanity, far from being shallow, empty, or silly, this man believes so deeply in the value of the sacrifice made by his Lord and Savior that he decided to facilitate what he considered would be an experience that would help others enhance their understanding of the true price of that sacrifice. Others who WANTED to see "The Passion."

You think he's a moron for doing that? Fine. I think he's an American exercising his rights of free speech and religion.

And here we are. Ain't it good to be a progressive?

[californiahippie]

267. No but...

I honestly don't think a non Christian democrat will have a chance to vote for a non Christian candidate anytime soon. As much as we talk about loving diversity and freedom in this country, being Muslim or Hindu would be political doom for a Presidental candidate.

[liberalpress]

282. Calm down, Nashlib

... if you hang here for a while longer you will notice that there is a lot of Christian bashng going on here. I used to be offfended by by it, now I just consider it sad. A political party that prides itself on tolerance, certainly seemd to have to have little when faith is mentioned. But I'm still cating a solid Democratic ballot in November. It's what I believe... and it seems to piss a lot of those here off. I call that a bonus.

[Columbia]

287. It is indeed sad

However, we must remember that the disportionate amount of anti-Christian sentiment on this board do not accurately reflect those out in the real world.

[jsw_81]

239. Yes

I don't speak for Kerry or his campaign, but I think that believing in something without evidence -- especially a bizarre, contradictory story about a man being crucified, rising from the grave complete with angels, talking snakes, flying horses, and a deity -- is completely ridiculous. Robert Ingersoll (a famous 19th century non-believer) was absolutely correct when he said that faith was a sad mixture of insanity and ignorance.

Faith drove airliners into the Twin Towers; faith mutilates little girls in Africa; faith inspired the Crusades and countless other wars; faith is what makes stupid idiots blow themselves up on buses in Tel-Aviv; faith in religious myths is why the United States is so backward with regard to science; faith is why there are more churches than schools; faith is why poor old ladies send their Social Security checks to Jerry Falwell; faith defended slavery for decades and inspires the current war against homosexuals; faith burned skeptics at the stake; faith in unseen spiritual nonsense is what has divided Catholics vs. Protestants vs. Orthodox vs. Jews vs. Muslims vs. Buddhists vs. Hindus vs. atheists for centuries.

In short, I think we've had far too much "faith" in this world and far too little rational thinking. And if that offends you, too bad.

[Columbia]

249. Let me guess

You're one of those glass is half-empty kind of guys?

Faith can be twisted in many ways to fit or act as an excuse for an agenda as evidenced by your tidy laundry list above. However, faith also has been part of counter movements to many of those evils that you list above as well. But since you seem to have already made up your mind, I won't try to convince you otherwise any further.

[Muddleoftheroad]

252. What a one-sided view

The same could be said of any set of beliefs in the world. There is good to it and there is bad. You left out all the helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, etc. that the churches do.

Anyhow, good thing for Kerry you DON'T speak for him. He wouldn't even get re-elected to the Senate if you did. Since of course, your view and that of others here on religion is so far out of the mainstream as to be humorous or pathetic.

[californiahippie]

270. Wow

Wow, that seems like a lot of judgement from a Christian, isn't that frowned upon? I understand the feelings that bring people to this point, there is a lot of hypocracy in the name of Christianity and it tends to be the loudest religion in the country at least. It tires and frustrates alot of non christians who feel imposed on anyway and not left to believe what they will.
Do I think there are alot of good Christians out there doing good things? Yes. And I feel Jesus is a good teacher with a wonderful message. Sometimes in my less patient moments I wish there was a little less blabbing and judging in the Christian movement and a little more loving thy brother, whether thy brother is Christian or Muslim or anything else. I think that sentiment fuels alot of frustration with the Christian movement, although I don't think people need to belittle people's faith to vent their frustration.

[Columbia]

235. He was speaking of everlasting life

Not that of which we experience here on earth. The hunger of the soul is what Jesus is talking about feeding and it is this such hunger that the man is also attempting to feed with his act of charity.

[Deb-Ter]

269. RC

And yet when Mary Magdeline annointed him with the expensive oils and the diciples complained that it would have fed a lot of hungry, Jesus defended her.

Maybe his idea was that it would energize Christians to begin a deeper faith and this in turn would cause more charity works....instead of just the $42,000 it could end up being exponentially more.

[LiberalFighter]

216. Had an impact in such a short period of time???

a day or few days?

How did it impact his life? In what way was it changed?

[Muddleoftheroad]

221. I'm guessing

It was a religious experience. Perhaps rekindled lost faith.

[AgadorSparticus]

240. no. sharing the movie is for his OWN faith. not for others.

it is like offering your flannel shirt to a starving man. he can't eat the shirt. he wants food. so is sharing the movie really for the hungry man or is it for this man to feel better about HIS own faith?

[californiahippie]

271. That's a great point.

What is he sharing with a non Christian? Is he sharing a message of universal love, acceptance of all religions? Or is he sharing a message of "my way or the highway, you will go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your savior?"
There isn't a lot for a non Christian to do with that but hopefully wish the person well and try to avoid them.

[californiahippie]

265. yep

Something doesn't sit well about all this and I think you kind of hit the nail on the head.

[LiberalFighter]

30. That is not an act of "Christian" charity.

God gives us direction how we are to give in such a case, viz. bountifully, and willingly. We should give bountifully, and sufficiently for the supply of the poor’s need. Deu. 15-7, 8, “Thou shalt not shut up thine hand from thy poor brother; but thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.” And again, in verse 11, “Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.” Again, we should give willingly and without grudging. Deu. 15-7, “Thou shalt not harden thine heart from thy poor brother,” And verse 10, “And thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest him.”

The key for it to be Christian charity is the need of the poor.


Edited because the colons caused smiley faces in the verses.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. The poor have souls as well

And clearly this movie was a soulful experience for the man. He is feeding their souls.

[AgadorSparticus]

241. then maybe he should let GOD feed other's souls....

man has a way of screwing things up. It is not for one man to save another man's soul. and this is where FAITH comes in. He should let GOD do it.

[Touchdown]

39. Not Christian Charity, but an investment in further membership funds.

If you think for on instant that he's just doing this out of the goodness of his heart, then why didn't he spend that kind of money so school children in Plano could see Harry Potter last winter? Why was it this movie, and not Lost in Translation, or even something with social redeeming value, like City of God?

He will use it as recruitment drive for his church, so that they can get more members, and more money when the plates get passed around.

Calling what this man did as an act of giving, is like saying that Joseph Goebbels bought out an entire theater to show Triumph of the Will, just because it's so well done. Yeah, no other reason is possible, right?

[Nashvilliberal]

45. Or perhaps he'd hope that people would come to his church to learn to...

forgive when others slander them. I have a buddy who's a Fundamentalist, and he's going to Kenya for two weeks this summer ($1850 out of his pocket, and he's NOT wealthy) to help build housing in rural areas. I don't agree with his politics, but he walks the walk.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Well said and welcome to DU

[Nashvilliberal]

55. Thanks for the kind welcome...

and for not allowing Christians to be second-class citizens on DU.

[Touchdown]

47. Your friend is doing an act of Christian Charity.

Spending money to sit in a suburban, air-conditioned theater seeing a passion play they already know the outcome of, is a far cry from building houses in Kenya.

[Lars39]

48. At some point will the ones who will live in the houses be shown

the movie as a way to convert them? :shrug:

[Touchdown]

60. It may not work, considering the reality of brutality

in sub-Saharan Africa, that they have seen on a day to day basis with the armed coups, and civil wars being fought, not to mention the ravages of AIDS. Women are still circumcized, and adulterers are stoned to death in this part of the world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. He gave $42,000 to help others see something

That is important to their faith. Sounds like a mitzvah to me.

[Paragon]

50. Exactly

If Jesus were in that theater, he'd be turning over popcorn carts and throwing cases of Twizzlers.

[Nashvilliberal]

53. OR...

People will see the movie, and realize "Jesus died for my sins" for the enormity of the voluntary sacrifice it was. And when they walk out, perhaps they'll find it a little easier to make personal sacrifices so that they can help others.

I think Jesus would like that. After all, THAT's the point.

[Touchdown]

59. Only part of the point.

People who see this movie will not get the inspiration, the fellowship, the miracles and the love in the years of Jesus' teachings leading up to this inevitable point...which is the real point. No sermon on the mount, raising Lazarus from the dead, turning water into wine, admonishing people to love one another, keep his commandments, respecting our wives and parents, keeping the faith, and the disciples following his example. All we get is the brutality waged upon him, so that all we ever have to know is that he absolved us of our sins, by dying on the cross. All that other stuff is nice, but we don't really need to follow that, after all we're already saved by this one final act of sacrifice. Passion plays are not only out of context, but are meant to give us excuses for not being kind to each other.

[Paragon]

62. Not to mention he's preaching to the converted.

Few non-Christians would have the stomach for this. The people taking those tickets are already going to church.

[Nashvilliberal]

67. And is there a problem...

with a movie that strengthens the faith of believers?

Is there?

[Paragon]

70. Of course not.

What the rest of us are arguing is the true definition of Christian charity -- serving others.

[Nashvilliberal]

75. And aren't others served...

if their faith is strengthened by this movie? If they are compelled, after witnessing the intensity of Christ's voluntary suffering and sacrifice for them, to rededicate themselves to increase their service to others, is that a good thing?

[Paragon]

77. $42,000 buys a lot of food

No "ifs" about it going into hungry people's stomachs. Charity is not for affluent people, so this is propaganda, not charity. Admit to that much.

[Nashvilliberal]

81. Give a man a fish...

well, you know the story. Many Christian churches devote a substantial amount of their giving to feeding the poor.

What part is propaganda? The movie, or the ticket buying? In both cases, Christian men have spent significant amounts proportional (I would guess) to their wealth in order to promote a message they believe will benefit those who see and hear it.

What's the trouble with that?

[AgadorSparticus]

244. compelled or guilt tripped into service to others?

i would want someone to help me NOT because jesus suffered and sacrified for their sins, but because they WANT and LOVE ME. anything else, i would question their motivation...

[northernsoul]

90. is that really what it's doing though?

This from Andrew Sullivan (www.andrewsullivan.com) of all people:
<snip>
SAY WHAT? Here's a bizarre sentence in National Review Online:
The gulf we place between ourselves and God through sin is bridged only by that intense physical agony Gibson depicts and is taken to task for depicting.

I think that's a fair inference from Gibson's movie. But it is theologically very suspect. Would our sins have been expiated if Jesus had only been flogged twenty rather than forty times? (The Gospels do not tell us how brutal this process was. For some reason, the evangelists reduced the episode to a couple of sentences. Gibson makes the flogging the centerpiece of the whole film.) If Jesus had been roped to the cross and died of asphyxiation, rather than being nailed there, would we still not be saved? If the nails had been placed in his wrists rather than his palms, would we not have been redeemed? Of course some of these details are there in the Gospels; but Gibson's loving obsession with them, his creepy love of watching extreme violence, is nowhere found in the Gospels.

Let's take a few clear examples. The Gospels do not tell us that the jailers of the High Priests beat Jesus to a pulp before he was even delivered to the Romans, or that he was thrown in chains over a prison wall, almost garrotting him. That's Gibson's sadistic embellishment - so that Jesus already has one eye shut from bruises before he is even tried. The Gospels do not say that the flogging of Jesus was so extreme and out of control that a centurion had to stop it because it had gone beyond any of the usual bounds of Roman punishment. That again is Gibson's invention. In the crucifixion scene, the Gospels do not say that in hoisting the cross, it fell down by accident so that Jesus was pinned headfirst between the cross and the earth, his crown of thorns thrust even deeper into his skull. Again, that's Gibson's interpolation. It's as if Gibson's saying that being crucified isn't bad enough - you've got be crushed face down by timber first if you are going to save all mankind.

I repeat that there is something deeply disturbed about this film. Its extreme and un-Biblical fascination with human torture reflects, to my mind, not devotion to the message of the Cross but a kind of psycho-sexual obsession with extreme violence that Gibson has indulged in many of his other movies and is now trying to insinuate into Christianity itself. The film could have shown suffering and cruelty much differently. It could have led us into the profound psychological pain that Jesus and his mother and disciples must have endured by giving us some human context to empathize with them; it could have prompted the viewer to use his or her own imagination to fill in the gaps of terror, as all great art does; it could have done much more by showing us much less. But the extremity is Gibson's obvious point. I can understand why traditionalist Catholics might be grateful that there is some Hollywood representation of their faith. But they shouldn't let their gratitude blind them to the psychotic vision of this disturbed director - and the deeper, creepier, heterodox theology that he is trying to espouse.
</snip>

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nashvilliberal]

212. Please refer me to a link in which Mel Gibson endorses the war in Iraq...

or George Bush, or the Republican party. I don't know WHAT his politics are; I've looked around the net, and can't find anything on it.

BTW, many Christian churches (I'm Catholic/Christian) have unwaveringly and publicly opposed the war.

[RapidCreek]

261. Well he sure seems interested in appealing to AWOLS minions

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A26264-2003Jul22?language=printer

The state of mind he reveals in the interview he gave in Playboy, July 1995 (Vol. 42 ; No. 7 ; Pg. 51)makes quite clear his "conservative leanings... Some excerpts:

PLAYBOY: What does he have to do with the Alliance for Catholic Tradition, which one magazine called "an extreme conservative Catholic splinter group"?

GIBSON: He started it. Some people say it's extreme, but it emphasizes what the institution was and where it's going. Everything he was taught to believe was taken from him in the Sixties with this renewal Vatican Council. The whole institution became unrecognizable to him, so he writes about it.

.........

PLAYBOY: Do you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution or that God created man in his image?

GIBSON: The latter.

PLAYBOY: So you can't accept that we descended from monkeys and apes?

GIBSON: No, I think it's bullshit. If it isn't, why are they still around? How come apes aren't people yet? It's a nice theory, but I can't swallow it. There's a big credibility gap. The carbon dating thing that tells you how long something's been around, how accurate is that, really? I've got one of Darwin's books at home and some of that stuff is pretty damn funny. Some of his stuff is true, like that the giraffe has a long neck so it can reach the leaves. But I just don't think you can swallow the whole piece.

The preceding is a fine example of his rather infantile, sophomoric comprehension skills.....not to mention an indication of a simplistic practiced ignorance that anyone over the age of 7 should be embarrased about

PLAYBOY: We take it that you're not particularly broad-minded when it comes to issues such as celibacy, abortion, birth control --

GIBSON: People always focus on stuff like that. Those aren't issues. Those are unquestionable. You don't even argue those points.

PLAYBOY: You don't?

GIBSON: No.

PLAYBOY: What about allowing women to be priests?

GIBSON: No.

PLAYBOY: Why not?

GIBSON: I'll get kicked around for saying it, but men and women are just different. They're not equal. The same way that you and I are not equal.

PLAYBOY: That's true. You have more money.

GIBSON: You might be more intelligent, or you might have a bigger dick. Whatever it is, nobody's equal. And men and women are not equal. I have tremendous respect for women. I love them. I don't know why they want to step down. Women in my family are the center of things. An good things emanate from them. The guys usually mess up.

PLAYBOY: That's quite a generalization.

GIBSON: Women are just different. Their sensibilities are different.

PLAYBOY: Any examples?

GIBSON: I had a female business partner once. Didn't work.

PLAYBOY: Why not?

GIBSON: She was a cunt.

PLAYBOY: And the feminists dare to put you down!

GIBSON: Feminists don't like me, and I don't like them. I don't get their point. I don't know why feminists have it out for me, but that's their problem, not mine.

.................

PLAYBOY: How do you feel about Bill Clinton?

GIBSON: He's a low-level opportunist. Somebody's telling him what to do.

PLAYBOY: Who?

GIBSON: The guy who's in charge isn't going to be the front man, ever. If I were going to be calling the shots I wouldn't make an appearance. Would you? You'd end up losing your head. It happens all the time. All those monarchs. Ifhe's the leader, he's getting shafted. What's keeping him in there? Why would you stay for that kind of abuse? Except that he has to stay for some reason. He was meant to be the president 30 years ago, if you ask me.

PLAYBOY: He was just 18 then.

GIBSON: Somebody knew then that he would be president now.

PLAYBOY: You really believe that?

GIBSON: I really believe that. He was a Rhodes scholar, right? Just like Bob Hawke. Do you know what a Rhodes scholar is? Cecil Rhodes established the Rhodes scholarship for those young men and women who want to strive for a new world order. Have you heard that before? George Bush? CIA? Really, it's Marxism, but it just doesn't want to call itself that. Karl had the right idea, but he was too forward about saying what it was. Get power but don't admit to it. Do it by stealth. There's a whole trend of Rhodes scholars who will be politicians around the world.



PLAYBOY: This certainly sounds like a paranoid sense of world history. You must be quite an assassination buff.

GIBSON: Oh, fuck. A lot of those guys pulled a boner. There's something to do with the Federal Reserve that Lincoln did, Kennedy did and Reagan tried. I can't remember what it was, my dad told me about it. Everyone who did this particular thing that would have fixed the economy got undone. Anyway, I'll end up dead if I keep talking shit.

I'd have included his remarks about homosexuals as well...but I have more important things to do than educate you about your hero Mel Gibson.

Mr. Gibsons own words....and his interest in garnering the approval of Bushco minions expose his political flavor.

RC

[Nashvilliberal]

264. Thanks for the link...

I hadn't read that interview. Frankly, before this movie, I wasn't particularly interested in him, and I'm disappointed in his responses in that interview (or that anyone would hold those opinions). But the moderator-deleted post to which I originally replied accused him of supporting the Iraq war, and I'm not sure that's true.

Just trying to get the facts straight for myself. Thanks for the help.

[LiberalFighter]

277. Sounds like Gibson is paranoid

[bhunt70]

286. I saw it, and Im not religious or sadistic at all...and I cried in it.

So to think that only religious people have something to gain from this movie is ludacris.

[Nashvilliberal]

66. You seem to know the pretext...

My guess is that most of them will to. Back when Gibson originally wanted to show the movie without subtitles (you remember, back when nobody thought he could get distribution for a movie so few would want to see), he said that people experience great opera in other languages without subtitles because they know the story. The same is true here.

[Touchdown]

76. I just don't believe this is the part of the story...

that they need reinforcing on. They should love Jesus because he loves them, and it's the right thing to do to follow his love for others, not out of guilt for what he went through in his last hours to save their ungrateful souls.

[1monster]

194. Don't brand all Passion Plays by this one...

I was a costumer in a Passion Play for four years. It was very well done and the arrest, Pilot washing his hand, beating, and crucifixion portion took up only about one third of the play. The entire first act was turning water to wine, raising Lazerus, the good Samaritan, the Sermon on the Mount, etc. It included a really beautiful scene from the "suffer the children to come unto me" scene.

A little over half of the second act covered the period of Gibson's opus, but the rest dealt with the Ressurection and Assumption into Heaven...

FYI, I don't call myself a Christian, but I take the good from any belief system. I never thought that Christianity should be based on the Crusifixtion, but instead on the teaching of Jesus.

[californiahippie]

273. Nice post

I will remember that. I believe in the good of Jesus's teachings too, although I am not Christian either. I don't know why the making of this movie and it's controversy leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I will remember not to judge all based on this. And I haven't seen it, maybe I will become a conservative Baptist after I do, ROFL!

[Deb-Ter]

272. Touchdown.....

You either get it or you don't....and you don't.

[Touchdown]

281. Deb-Ter

I do get it. I was brainwashed by it in a Four Square Church when I was a teenager, and thank you so much for that very Christian condescension. Jesus is very proud of you.:eyes:

[RC]

80. What sacrifice?

Christ knew he going to rise from the dead after 3 days.

[Nashvilliberal]

83. If your question is sincere...

then you really should see the movie.

That, of course, is the point.

[Nobody]

124. Would you undergo surgery without anesthetic?

After all, you have a reasonable chance of not dying.

Torture is torture.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Big difference between providing shelter and popping for a movie ticket

42,000 could have provided a great deal of shelter for a long time...this way it provides it for a couple hours.

[californiahippie]

274. good point

[Djinn]

219. Exactly

your buddy WALKS THE WALK he didn't donate $1850 so people could see a movie about homeless Kenyans

[AgadorSparticus]

242. good for him for "walking the walk"..but it doesn't give him the right to

determine how anyone else's soul should be saved. it is a private affair between an individual and their god.

[MI Cherie]

137. And the corporations are ...

... still profiting nicely!

It IS just a movie! There were cameras, scripts, and everything!

And the blood is probably not real either!

[alittlelark]

149. Roots was different - it was historically accurate.

Historians cannot find evidence that Jesus existed until 150 years AFTER he died.
I was raised Catholic. I understand the desire to believe, but I cannot anymore. I enjoyed the carefree years I spent believing. All I had to do was go to confession.
Now I have no one to answer to but myself - and I am a much more moral person.

My opinion and experience.

[JNelson6563]

169. I'd be more impressed with his act of charity

if it actually did some good. Can't habitat for humanity build an entire house for a family for that kind of dough?

Ah well, much better to guilt the hell out of an entire parish than to actually do some of the charitable acts Jesus spoke of I guess.

Julie

[GodHelpUsAll2]

171. Thank you

It's nice to see someone see it for what it really is instead of all the armchair critics that preach about something they know nothing about.

[Djinn]

218. dont you think there's a better use for that cash?

seriously if you've got 42K to splash around I can think of a million more "christian" things to do with it.

[Nashvilliberal]

225. What if he and his Church told you how to spend your money?

"After more than ten years of heavy smoking, Its been 6 days since I last had a pipe."

Congrats on the decision. Hope you feel better soon; hang in there.

But what would you say if he and his Church suggested you stop smoking pot five years ago and give that money to the poor? I'd say should mind there own business. Why should we be able to dicatate how he spends his money?

[AgadorSparticus]

243. exactly. it's what HE wants.--and not nec. what others WOULD want.

and that's okay. just don't label it "charity" for god. because "charity" isn't so selfishly motivated.

[CityZen-X]

15. The Flick Is An Indy!

[LiviaOlivia]

131. delete

[LiviaOlivia]

130. delete

n/t

[PROGRESSIVE1]

6. It's his money and he can piss it away all he wants to.

:eyes:

Why he's doing it is another question.

[ikojo]

168. I am sure he will find some way to claim the $42K as a

tax write off...He probably donated it to his church so THEY could buy the tickets. I seriously doubt this guy went to the theatre and plopped down $42K.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

172. My question is

Why is anyone's business. What gives ANYONE the right to even question the motives?

[LiberalFighter]

8. I doubt that Bonnema is a selfless man

In Plano, Arch Bonnema, a financial planner, reserved the entire Cinemark Tinseltown 20 theater, spending $42,000 of his own money on tickets.

I am sure he was being selfless considering he had all that money... just wonder how much of a crimp it put on his savings... especially being a financial planner.

After seeing "The Passion" a few months ago, Bonnema called his wife, Sherry, and told her, "Honey, we've got to get as many people as we can to see this film because it's changed my life."

How did this guy get to see the movie before it came out?

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Yet you see him before your very eyes

$42,000 is pretty damn selfless, especially in Plano, which is pretty small.

As for what he saw, he might have seen The MAKING of the movie, which has been all over the TV.

[LiberalFighter]

54. The size of a town does not determine the wealth of an individual

And this is Plano in TEXAS. Population 222,030 in 2000.
Comparing Plano with another city of comparable population there is a big difference.

Fort Wayne city, Indiana
Plano city, Texas

Total:
83,416
81,179

Less than $10,000
7,943
1,982

$10,000 to $14,999
5,613
1,595

$15,000 to $19,999
6,579
1,782

$20,000 to $24,999
6,755
2,216

$25,000 to $29,999
6,394
2,720

$30,000 to $34,999
6,380
2,950

$35,000 to $39,999
6,016
3,329

$40,000 to $44,999
5,585
3,169

$45,000 to $49,999
4,530
2,948

$50,000 to $59,999
7,733
6,189

$60,000 to $74,999
8,550
9,609

$75,000 to $99,999
6,285
12,851

$100,000 to $124,999
2,664
10,910

$125,000 to $149,999
1,035
5,970

$150,000 to $199,999
610
6,145

$200,000 or more
744
6,814

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. It certainly has an impact

If you are a financial advisor.

[LiberalFighter]

138. You were implying that his "selfless charity" was a major act

for someone from a small town as Plano.

Plano has a higher ratio of well to do people than Fort Wayne IN and Madison WI both with populations similar to Plano. That tied in with his profession suggests that it was not much of a sacrifice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

146. Very grand indeed

$42 grand actually. Wow, more well to do folks than Fort Wayne. How high end can you get.

And $42,000 is one hell of a sacrifice for someone who works for a living.

[AgadorSparticus]

248. plano is small and known for its RICH.

[anarchy1999]

255. Pbebe, have you ever been to Plano? Do you really know it is small?

If you have been to Plano, please tell me what is "small" about Plano? You my dear, I do believe, are misinformed. There is nothing whatsoever "small" about PLANO!

[AgadorSparticus]

256. Yes, I have been there.

But I will give you that it has been 10 yrs since I've been there so alot could happen since. My impression was that it was a small suburb--albeit very rich.

[LiberalFighter]

280. Plano has 2000pop of 222,030

I would not consider that small. But I would agree that it is ri
Rank 74
Plano TX
2000pop of 222,030
Land area: 71.6 square miles

Rank 83
Madison WI
2000pop of 208,054
Land area: 68.7 square miles

Rank 85
Fort Wayne IN
2000pop of 222,030
Land area: 79.0 square miles

61 St Paul MN 284,037
94 Shreveport LA 199,033
100 Spokane WA
110 Rena NV
116 Salt Lake UT

[bucknaked]

14. Either Limbaugh or Hannity (is there any diff?) said they saw it in July,

...so I'd imagine there was a private screening for those that were going to be pitching/defended it when it came out.

[Nashvilliberal]

24. Why would you automatically question his motives?

n/t

[anarchy1999]

126. To answer your question on how.

The church Bonnema goes to, Prestonwood Baptist, had a special screening about a 6-8 weeks ago for some of their members and pastors from around the nation. Invitation only.

Here is a copy of post I made last Wednesday night about this:
Thousands attend Plano 'Passion' showings

06:09 PM CST on Wednesday, February 25, 2004

By KIMBERLY DURNAN / Dallas Web Staff

PLANO – Thousands of Dallas-area residents began Ash Wednesday by becoming some of the first in the nation to attend early morning screenings of The Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson's long-awaited film depicting Jesus’ final day.

Noshing on doughnuts, coffee and traditional film fare like popcorn in the lobby of the Cinemark Tinseltown, the North Texans began viewing the film after midnight. They were there as guests of Arch Bonnema of Plano, who rented the entire theater complex for $42,000 so fellow parishioners at Prestonwood Baptist Church, theology students and others could share the experience.

snip:
The Rev. Jack Graham, pastor at Prestonwood Baptist, dismissed the idea that the film was anti-Semitic. “Mel Gibson shows clearly that Jesus voluntarily gave his life. It’s a sacrifice for sin,” he said.

Graham said he expected the movie to be popular across many cultures.

“We know we’ve never seen anything like this in a religious film. The impact is yet to be seen. I’m prayerful in terms of social impact, Christians will be bolder in their faith and more committed in Christ and the good news,” said Graham, who also is president of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention.

snip:
Headmaster Larry Taylor helped chaperone more than 200 high school students from Prestonwood Christian Academy. He said the parents understood the violent nature of the film and had signed a waiver allowing their children to view it.

“In our opinion, the R-rating stands for ‘real’. It’s a real visual for a true story,” he said.
For all the rest go to:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/022504dn...


Fun little tidbit about this "Mega-Church":

Last year, a few members of the North Texas Coalition for a Just Peace, decided this would be a good place to stage a protest on a Sunday morning (it was shortly after the bombs had started to fall if I remember correctly). There were probably 10-15 people and they had a banner that read "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" One of those gathered in the protest was actually a member of Prestonwood and was a volunteer serving some function with the childrens department.

They arrived early in the am and the Plano Police showed up. The protesters shared coffee and doughnuts with them and everything was okay. No problems. A little while later one of the many pastors' of the church showed up to tell them they HAD to LEAVE. The message and their presence was disturbing those coming to church that morning.

This group did leave, but the most disturbing part of all, was that this one person was fired from her volunteer position and as a result of that action no longer felt welcome in this "place of worship" and sought another church. Great bunch of people here (lots of sarcasm).

View Pictures of this place here (then run as fast as you can, in the other direction). We actually watched this place being built and for some time thought it was some type of airport hangar or big corporate manufacturing place. We worked only a couple of blocks away:

http://www.rogerhoganstudios.com/special_projects/prestonwood.html

Plano is a truly frightening place in this country.

We mostly just find it incredibly sad. We think those that worship at Prestonwood just might be missing at least a message or two from Jesus. And yes, we have actually been inside. My mother-in-law just had to go. This little church has a really "rich" little history. The pastor that founded this little church wound up being disgraced in a scandal involving another woman (go figure) and I think he may have either died tragically or actually offed himself. Oh, and Mary Kay herself was one of the original major donors in the beginning.
Long before the scandal, when it was not quite yet a mega-church.

[Turbineguy]

12. Somebody else in DU

brought up the idea that the repubs are good at getting people to act against their self-interest.

Giving "every penny I ever made" to a millionaire and thinking it not a sacrifice.

The foundation of the republican mantra is embodied here.

[aquart]

22. Read his actual words. Include the "If."

[tedzbear]

18. Selfless? More like stupidity!

Too bad. That $42,000 could have helped a lot of homeless people at my local shelter. Or a hundred other worthy charities that have millions of hungry mouths to feed.

Bonnema's purchase is the height of self-indulgence and only selfless in that he willingly handed over his money to line that theater owner's pockets.

2 hours watching brutal torture? No thank u. Looks like Mel is quite the sadist. He doesn't fool me with his Christian BS. By making this film, he was able to indulge his sadistic pleasures under the cover of "religion."

It won't be the first time that sadists have used the church for their own purposes.

:bounce:

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. So, it's stupidity when you don't agree with an act of charity

Unsurprising.

[FredScuttle]

33. Where's the charity?

Or is there a new Fund to Benefit Already-Obscenely Rich Actors I hadn't heard about?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. An act of charity doesn't require IRS sanction

Or a non-profit status. He gave away $42,000. If he had done so to ANYTHING else except the GOP or NRA, people here would be praising him.

[Forkboy]

86. Taking people to a movie is a kind gesture

An act of charity would have been to use that money to feed someone.42K buys a lot of food,and there's a lot of hungry people.

Let's not make this out to be super cool thing for charity.And by the same token,others shouldn't tear into him for it.

To me it's seems incredibly wasteful when there's so many better things he could have used that money for if he actually cared about people as much as you seem to think he does.Howere,it is his money.

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. There are millions or billions of hungry people

Should we do NO OTHER charity work? That makes no sense.

[Forkboy]

144. That's not what I said

The point was there's better "charity" work than his choice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

164. Only by YOUR definition

That means you suddenly only consider things to be "charity" if you approve of them. That's not charity, that's politics.

[Forkboy]

189. As you seem intent on arguing things I didn't say

Let's make this easy on you.Why dont you just make up my posts,then you can refute them,then you can make up my reply and refute that,on and on until you're bored.

[Muddleoftheroad]

197. You're doing fine on your own

You are the one criticizing a guy who cared enough to donate $42,000.

[Forkboy]

205. Like I said

you don't need me to keep this conversation going.

What did I say next?

[LiberalFighter]

139. I would agree that it is a kind gesture

[FredScuttle]

87. We agree that he gave away $42K

we disagree on what we should call it...

you say it's charity
I say his money will benefit no one but a few already affluent people.

I guess we have different ideas on the concept of "charity". I always thought of charity as helping those in need. Gibson may be a loon, but he doesn't look too needy to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

96. Helping others and encouraging them to find faith

By spending your own money IS charity.

[jmowreader]

122. I was going to stay out of this...

This gentleman is a Pentecostal. The Pentecostals I know are very heavily vested in their faith. Most of them take Jack Chick tracts as the divine word of God.

I seriously doubt these tickets are going to fence-sitters; the people who will attend this $42,000 screening already know the Biblical account by heart.

Are there better charitable uses for forty-two grand than taking all your friends to see Jesus get his ass kicked for two hours? Yeah, and he's probably already doing them.

I figure this guy can do what he wants here.

* * * * *

On to related subjects: The Passion of the Christ opened here on Ash Wednesday; the paper had an article about the opening on Clean Forehead Thursday. One woman said, "how could anyone see this and not become a believer?" Let me get this straight: I am an atheist, but seeing a guy in a robe get the shit beat out of him for a couple of hours will turn me into a fundamentalist. Uhh...yeah.

The whole problem with this film, and it's one many others have discussed, is that we don't know how badly Jesus was tortured. Did they give him 40 lashes then nail him up, or did they do worse than Mel Gibson's film shows?

[anarchy1999]

129. Not a Pentacostal, Southern Baptist

The church he goes to is Prestonwood Baptist Church.

One of country's first "mega-churches"

For pictures of the place go to:

http://www.rogerhoganstudios.com/special_projects/prestonwood.html

also see post #126

[AgadorSparticus]

245. no. you can spend your own money to further your OWN faith too.

--while neglecting other's VALUED needs.

people have different value scales. why should one person's faith superceed another's value for food? that is not necessarily "charity". that is thinking about one's OWN faith and assuming it is more important than another's hunger.

how well did the 42k meet the NEED of the poor as compared to meeting the needs of one man's devotion to HIS faith?

[tedzbear]

57. OK. Then how about "pointless" or "wasteful."

Yes. I definitely don't agree. I would be able to see some charity in it if this film weren't so completely focused on the physical torture of another human being. That is sadism and not a worthy cause in my opinion. Too bad he didn't make a movie about the life of Jesus instead of the gory death.
Unfortunately, the average American likes to watch violence more than he likes to watch spirituality.

[Muddleoftheroad]

103. Too bad it isn't the movie YOU wanted

It IS the movie that others want. Perhaps, based on the success here, more and more Jesus movies will be made. That is good news.

[AgadorSparticus]

247. why? so you can convert more people to christianity?

save their soul and spread the word? shove it down more people's throats? it's no wonder there is a backlash to christianity. the relentless evangelizing and converting dilutes the essence of the religion.

unfortunately, the victims of this christian jihad is the more tolerant christians who embody the spirit of god and don't have to go around marketing jesus in the name of charity or soul saving.

[Muddleoftheroad]

253. There are a lot of Christians

We LIKE movies about Jesus. The Bible too for that matter.

I am not calling to convert anyone who does not wish it so. However, to use terms like jihad is deliberately offensive.

[AgadorSparticus]

257. I'm happy for you that you like the bible.

But in my post, I said there are alot of christians who do like to convert people. and they go about it quite fervently. so my use of jihad is fitting. i don't know a "christian" term for it. but deliberately offensive? no.

[AgadorSparticus]

246. VIOLENCE SELLS.

[AgadorSparticus]

161. more like the definition of "charity"

[AgadorSparticus]

250. it's stupid when you don't AGREE that it IS an act of charity....

that IS unsurprising...

[Nashvilliberal]

21. Where does it say he spent his "life savings?"

Or is that just a dramatic embellishment?

As a financial planner, it's possible he's wealthy. And, if a wealthy gay had spent that money to buy tickets for people to see a pro-gay film because he thought it would give them a more positive perception of homosexuals, would he still be considered a "Moran" on DU, or would he be a selfless philanthropist?

[Paragon]

31. see post #28

Try visiting the link.

[Nashvilliberal]

42. I find nothing on the link about "life savings"

The closest I could find is this:

"If I had to spend every penny I ever made, it would not have been a sacrifice. This movie is about a sacrifice," an elated Bonnema told Access after his conversation with Gibson.

It says "If I had to." It doesn't say he did. Please point me to the appropriate quote.

[Paragon]

44. Click on the video link

If you'd gone to the post I first directed you to, I said it there, too. Sheesh.

[LiberalFighter]

56. Based on census data that I posted at link 54

There is a good chance that he is on the wealthy side... especially being a financial planner.

[Mari333]

29. On another note: Theres a man dressed as Jesus in my town today

standing on the overpass in town holding a cross with a crown of thorns on his head.
Oy Vey.
and the movie will open here in a week.
Im keeping an eye on the Jewish temple here , god only knows what these people could do to it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Christianity owes much to Judaism

Including our savior.

They should stop by and say thank you.

[MikeGalos]

64. Yeah. That'll happen.

nt

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. Failing that

I do my part to thank Jewish people both for that and their work helping earn me my rights.

I never forget.

[ikojo]

167. I don't need any Christian thanks, thank you very much

Chrisitianity has "thanked" Jews too much throughout history...

[ms_splash]

173. Amen brother/sister!

[Muddleoftheroad]

223. So all Christians are bad?

And you reject people being nice to you?

[theHandpuppet]

41. What would Jesus do with $42,000?

Probably have spent it to feed and clothe the poor.

This is pretty sad if you ask me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Then when you give away $42,000

You can do that. He did this.

[rocktop15]

51. Why didn't he buy $42,000 worth of Bibles?

That would have been a much wiser investment in my book if he wants to save people. "The Passion" doesn't tell people why we should want to love Jesus, just that he suffered a lot. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. Most likely, these folks HAD Bibles

[thebigidea]

52. are you his press agent?

If I bought $42,000 worth of tickets due to the lifechanging experience that is "Jingle All the Way," would you also defend that idiocy as a beautiful gift of charity?

No, you'd call me a freakin' loony.

To which the comeback would be: "What, are you some kind of hateful bigot? It was a deep, cleansing spiritual experience for me. How dare you impugn the religious epiphany that IS 'Jingle All the Way'?"

[Muddleoftheroad]

102. Jingle all the way

Whether you find it so or not, this man and many others are finding the movie a powerful religious experience. I think you would be hard-pressed to find people who would even take FREE tickets to Jingle All The Way.

[thebigidea]

151. how dare you insult my savior? Is that what he is to you, a joke?

The hatemongering has really hurt my feelings here.

I have saved hundreds of former homosexuals and current alcoholics with free, compassionate screenings of "Jingle All the Way" - to deny that truth, to deny that love, to deprive Americans of the religious freedom we so cherish in such a vile, reprehensible way... I find it simply astonishing.

There may be a "Peace Fence" in the Holy Land - but right now, I see a fence in your own heart, seperating you from the grace that is that indescrible cinematic confection, "Jingle All the Way" - please, stop jingling so halfheartedly... for once, take a deep breath, brace yourself, and jingle ALL THE WAY.

[Nashvilliberal]

153. Since you obviously don't respect other's freedom of religious choice...

perhaps you'd elaborate on which of the other espoused values of the Democratic party you find so important as to compel you to post over 1000 times?

Seriously....

[thebigidea]

154. I am compelled to post here by the power of God himself

all those who defy me are heretics and potentially, quite possibly - whoremongers of the first rank. That may not be true, though. I must sacrifice some cattle and read the lovely liver enclosed within for clues.

Those that doubt my judgments and manic posts are simply bigots, narrow-minded types with a disdain for religious freedom, a hatred for freedom of choice.

Devo had it right, my friends - Freedom FROM Choice is what you want.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Nashvilliberal]

155. Sorry, I thought you might actually have something constructive to add...

my mistake.

[thebigidea]

156. I could never match your record of accomplishment

I look forward to further fellowship with you, brother. Don't forget to tithe all your son's college money to me. Soon.

Its all good fun and games until somebody gets crucified... But never, and I mean NEVER - challenge a stranger to elaborate on espoused values of the Democratic Party. You're just opening a big old can of smelly worms with that!

[Dob Bole]

68. Jesus never had $42,000 (please read)

He fled to Egypt as a child and lived among black people. Then he returned near his original home and worked as a carpenter. He ate bread and water through most of his life.

Once Jesus was at a friend's house and a prostitute, happy that Jesus had accepted and forgiven her, came and washed his feet with expensive perfume, which she had spent her life savings on. One of his followers objected, saying that the money should have been spent on the poor. Jesus replied that the poor were always with us and we always have a chance to help them, but that he was there only for a short time.

The man who spent his savings on tickets to the Passion thought he was giving people the gift of Jesus, which is greater than giving them all a can of beans.

[DrWeird]

105. Ding Ding Ding.

Think of all the lives in third world countries that could be saved with $42,000. Instead he spent it so Gibson could get a little bit richer, and a few people who could have afforded anyway could see a movie so they won't have to read the book.

Jesus is rolling over in his grave. The good news is, if there is a hell, this guy's headed straight there.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

58. I read a good point about that movie

Someone said "How is spending 6, 7, 8, or 9 bucks to see Jesus beaten, tortured, and killed any different from the people who stood around in mobs and watched it happen originally?"

Food for thought....

[MikeGalos]

69. Well there's one difference

assuming that the basic story as a premise...

In the event 2000 year ago, most of the people likely thought, "Damn, there go the Romans killing more Jews. When are we going to get this SOBs out of our country"

In the movie this week, most of the people watching thought that they got a personal benefit out of the torture and murder.

I'm not sure what significance there is to that. Just a thought.

[Nashvilliberal]

73. Mike - Clarification, please.

In your post #25, you imply that Gibson will be donating to the Bush campaign. Can you please point me to a source which will verify that Gibson's a Republican? This link: http://www.campaignmoney.com/biography.asp?type=mg&titledesc=Mel+Gibson+Biography
says that Gibson has donated $0 to political campaigns since 1999. And on the Diane Sawyer interview, he made a really sarcastic remark about the "Weapons of Mass Destruction," which would lead me to believe he disapproved of the Iraq War.

Your help in clarifying this would be appreciated.

[Touchdown]

78. LOL! Hyperbole is an art form lost on many...

...people these days isn't it?

[Nashvilliberal]

79. Good...

would you please provide me with the link that verifies that Gibson supports the war? Knowing the intensity of his Catholic faith (regardless of pre or post Vatican II), I'd assume he'd automatically be opposed to it.

[Touchdown]

84. I never said Gibson supported any war, and don't know that he did.

So I wouldn't know where to go to find one. What MakeGalos was doing in speculating his support for * was making a joke...or using hyperbole, to drive a point home, that most hardcore right wing evangelicals are taking this film way too seriously.

Hyperbole is embelleshment, usually to emphasize a point. It works in satire as well as serious discussions.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Nashvilliberal]

85. Serious question...

Sorry - I thought that your comment meant that Gibson's WMD comment during the Diane Sawyer interview was hyperbole (which it was), and since you chose to intercept a direct and sincere question asked of another poster with LOL, I misinterpreted your meaning.

My bad.

I've read repeatedly on DU that people believe Gibson is a Republican, so MikeGalos' post didn't strike me as all that abstract. Other's on DU believe he's Republican. I'd just like to know whether this is true.

[Touchdown]

88. Well, with that...I don't know.

So I'll have to step aside and let MikeGalos answer instead. I thought he was being sarcastic, so I butted in. I guess EVEN I can put my foot in my mouth at times, as hard as it is for everyone else to believe ;-) ...Who'd a thunk it?

[kskiska]

109. The people standing around in mobs

weren't eating candy and popcorn.

[LiberalFighter]

141. And considering how Plano is an affluent city...

they wouldn't go see the movie and pay for it themselves? They must be cheap as hell that they couldn't pay the $7 per ticket.

[bobbyboucher]

65. The man's a nutcase and his actions folly.

It's a free country, though. Paying for people to see this movie will do more harm than good.

[OnceBlind]

82. Paying for people to see the movie will cause more harm?

I don't understand. How can it hurt anything?

[bobbyboucher]

112. The movie is ridiculously violent and divisive,

and could easily embolden the Christian insane to grab more power over the government which is clearly against the constitution.

It is not charity to buy tickets for this gruesome display of blind worship. This movie has virtually no redeeming, positive value.

Show the life of Christ and promote his real teachings. Don't concentrate on his murder, of which the only historical account is in the oft translated and belatedly written gospels.

This movie is nothing more than propaganda, disguised as showing his sacrifice. To buy tickets to it is propaganda, not charity.

[OnceBlind]

140. Really?????

I must ask this, though.... Have you seen the movie?

[bobbyboucher]

184. No, and I'm not going to either.

Frankly, when I hear that it is overly violent from damn near everyone that I hear, well, then it's overly violent. Some have written it shouldn't even be rated "R".

As for being divisive, well that's pretty obvious.

Go see that crap all you want. I'm gonna pass. Hey, would you have gone to see the original? If not, why?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

190. So many

Armchair critics that know absolutely nothing about what they are talking about. "I get all my information from the news and hear say" but I'm smart, really. America is in deep trouble. Most if It's population is virtually incapable of thinking and seeing things for themselves and depend on others to tell them what they think. I have great pitty.

[OnceBlind]

208. You really should watch it

in order to back up your really strong opinions on it. I saw the movie, and I don't think it was any worse than any other movie, as far as violence goes. I have seen killing movies that are far more violent than this. It could have had a PG-13 rating at the most. That's just my humble opinion, of course, but I did see it.

[Dob Bole]

71. Jesus and $42,000

Jesus fled to Egypt as a child and lived presumably among black Africans. Then he returned near his original home and worked as a carpenter. He ate bread and water through most of his life.

Once Jesus was at a friend's house and a prostitute, happy that Jesus had accepted and forgiven her, came and washed his feet with expensive perfume, which she had spent her life savings on. One of his followers objected, saying that the money should have been spent on the poor. Jesus replied that the poor were always with us and we always have a chance to help them, but that he was there only for a short time.

The man who spent his savings on tickets to the Passion thought he was giving people the gift of Jesus, which is greater than giving them all a can of beans.

[Robin Hood]

74. Idiot!!

It's a MOVIE. It's fake. It is not real life. Unbelievable.

[Gulf Coast J]

91. So if somebody spent $42,000 for others to see Michael Moore's new movie

Would everybody be up in arms over that action too?

If I send a check to John Kerry, someone who is richer than I ever hope to be, will that not be an act of charity?

For many, the movie is a very spiritual and moving experience. If this man wants to spread that experience with others who might not have the chance to see it, then good for him!

[Columbia]

97. Well said.

A lot of hypocrisy shining through in this thread.

[bobbyboucher]

118. Oh please, the key to that "argument",

and I use that term loosely, is the word "if", which has to be included because nobody was stupid enough to pay 42K to send a bunch of the choir to see "Columbine". So if you want to pretend that their is hypocracy going on around here because of some hypothectical fantasy of yours, go right ahead, but it is nothing more than fantasy.

Get ahold of yourself.

[Columbia]

134. The only reason why people are so inflamed

Is because this person committed a generous act of charity for a program people here have a personal problem with.

Michael Moore gives his books and movies away to troops, do you think that is stupid too? Is this the hypothetical fantasy you are talking about?

[bobbyboucher]

185. It wasn't charity, it was propaganda.

The only person who thought those people were needy is that tool who bought the tickets. Huh, needy of Gibson's opinion of Christ's death, which he supports? Give us a break.

Artist's give their stuff away for promotion all the time. Artists. Only crazies buy bulk and give them away in order to promote their opinion. Could you link to that Moore info you cite?

[Columbia]

187. It's called freedom

The man chose how to give away his money and although you do not agree with his aims, to him and many others it is indeed a generous act of good will and charity.

As for Michael Moore's act of charity, check his website, it's right on the homepage.

[AgadorSparticus]

251. as long as moore doesn't call it charity for god--that's ok.

just call a spade a spade.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

179. Lots of it

I seems there are quite a few who feel they have been granted the authority to Judge others. It says a lot for the mentality of this country. A lot indeed. But hey, I'm sure contributing part of the grocery money to a political campaign is perfectly ok because you know, "It's different". Translation, do as I say not as I do. Hypocrite's all around.

[Eric J in MN]

110. That would be unwise. The price of a movie ticket isn't stopping people

That would be unwise. The price of a movie ticket isn't stopping people from seeing movies.

If someone wants to promote the next Michael Moore movie, he should spend $42,000 on adverstising instead of on free-tickets.

[bobbyboucher]

113. Nobody is "up in arms", it's just dumb,

and an act of propaganda.

[LiberalFighter]

142. I would be all for spending $42,000 so that underprivilege children

could go to a Shriners Circus, or summer camp, or clean up a neglected park, or providing for a local clinic in a poor neighborhood.

[JasonDeter]

98. Why the outrage over the man spending his money the way he sees fit?

The logic behind being upset even the slightest over this is perplexing. Mel Gibson did a decent thing though. You see God doen't care what one does with his money. Its when one trys to appear righteous with it is when God holds court. There is a famous example of that very thing in the Bible.

[northernsoul]

99. I'm not outraged, I just think it's a dumb thing to do

he can flush $42,000 down his toilet for all I care - but I do reserve the right to consider him to be an idiot for doing so.

[Muddleoftheroad]

104. Yeah, charity is so idiotic

[bobbyboucher]

115. It's not charity,

so stop saying it. It's promotion of propaganda.

[Nashvilliberal]

119. Get a dictionary

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Charity:
1) Christian love for God and men; 2) an act or feeling of generosity. (there's more, including helping the poor, which I'll bet he and his church already participate in).

It was certainly a generous act to purchase those tickets for others. It's not promotion of propaganda, so stop saying it.

[Art_from_Ark]

145. Yeah, sounds like charity to me

35.  For I was hungry ,and
you gave me meat:  I was thirsty
and ye gave me drink:  I was a
stranger, and ye took me in:

36.  Naked, and ye clothed me:
I was sick and ye visited me:
I was in prison and ye came
unto me.

37. A member of your church, and ye gave me a movie ticket
:eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

147. Blessed

"Blessed are you when men reproach you, and persecute you, and
speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you, for my sake."

Sorry you don't like the gift. Too freakin' bad. It's still darn charitable. More here at DU ought to learn from it.

[Art_from_Ark]

157. It's not charity, it's a gift

The recipients of the gift were not lacking in essentials. They were given a gift. Period.

If someone from my church gives me a book, it's a gift, it's not charity. If that person pays the electric bill for a needy family, it's charity.

[bobbyboucher]

181. Baloney.

It's nothing more than pushing your opinion. Not charity.

[Muddleoftheroad]

198. If he had given them food, by that definition, it would still be a gift

After all, how hungry they are is an opinion.

I guess I am unsurprised at the hypocrisy here that would celebrate a gift to see a left wing film and call it epic charity. Instead, he is criticized and mocked because he dared help people go to something that is religious in nature.

[Djinn]

224. semantics

Muddle given you seem to be insisting that simply giving a gift is "charity" would you consider a "gift" of 42K to Hamas or Al Qaeda just another example of shinning charity?

[Muddleoftheroad]

232. Oh come on

Encouraging people to see a movie about Jesus equates to the scumbags at Hamas? Rules of civility prevent me from making the comments I wish.

Suffice it to say that your comparison is a piece of crap.

[bobbyboucher]

180. Funny, my Merriam's says this:

1 : benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
2 a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor c : public provision for the relief of the needy
3 a : a gift for public benevolent purposes b : an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift
4 : lenient judgment of others


Yours must be reading from the Hysterical Christian version. Where in that definition does giving away tickets to a movie that supports your religious beliefs, but is arguably inacurate, ridiculously bloody, and divisive in the community?

[Columbia]

111. Because a lot of people on DU are anti-Christian

[bobbyboucher]

116. Wrong.

Nice try. Keep your generalizations to yourself, regardless of their inacuracy.

I would say that many here are against Christians injecting their religious beliefs into our government, that would be accurate, maybe even understating it. But the old "We are persecuted as Christians" play is just sooooo lame.

Bring it up again when we start throwing you to the lions.

[Nashvilliberal]

120. "Bring it up again when we start throwing you to the lions."

Do you REALLY think that's not hate speech?

[bobbyboucher]

175. No, it's a joke.

Get over yourself.

[SammyWinstonJack]

132. LOL!

:-)

[Nashvilliberal]

133. Substitute "gas chamber" for "lions"

Still funny?

Some things don't have an expiration date.

[bobbyboucher]

176. Hysterical much?

You are not descriminated against.

[Columbia]

135. Thanks for proving my point bobby

:eyes:

[bobbyboucher]

177. You contort anything to

prove your ridiculous point. I'll say it again, you are not descriminated against. Quit your fuckin' whining and go to church and celebrate your faith. Can't find a church? Look on any corner. Don't tell me, "They've all been burned to the ground!"

You guys are hysterical and hillarious at the same time.

[Columbia]

186. Your avatar suits you well

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. I wouldn't suggest it

We aren't much in that turn-the-other cheek mode these days, especially around here after a couple weeks of endless abuse.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

191. Please explain

How this is injecting Christian belief's into the government.

[Paragon]

117. yeah, that's it

:eyes:

I love Jesus - it's the more fucked-up of his "followers" I have a problem with.

[JasonDeter]

121. Your right and its unfortunate

Your right and its unfortunate beause Christians are NOT the enemy of the Democratic Party!

[bobbyboucher]

114. Nobody is upset, you're saying that is so

is just like all the faux outrage that was said to be occuring before its release, which was not widespread and was all hype designed to promote the movie.

[leftyandproud]

136. because MANY DU'ers see the Bible as a piece of right wing propaganda

it threatens them...
anything done to promote Christianity in any way threatens their view of the secular/humanist God that they worship instead..
Someone getting thousands of people to go see a 12 hour reinactment of a Bible story does threaten some people...I say they are insecure idiots. They are free to say what they please...criticize the man for not buying food for poor people...I'd like to know how many of THEM, sitting in front of their new 3.4Gz Pentium 4 computers...or going out to see any other movie this weekend...or sending their cash to candidates and organizations that have millions already...Why they didn't use the $$ instead on the poor in their communities?

[JasonDeter]

159. You know, I have yet to hear one republican talking head

even his self-righteousness bush* use the Bible correctly. Not once. Have you? I'd love to hear just one! I saw something the other day, I don't remember the silly republicans name, but he was on stage with other republicans and he acted like he got a phone call from God. Some of the things he said were offensive. The very idea that God would tell bush* to attack Iraq BASED ON A LIE is beyond the pale.

[bobbyboucher]

183. Oh gawd!

Could you please bring that dribble around to the point? It's ad hominum nonsense.

[jmm]

123. Did he even see the movie before spending all that money on it?

I could think of better uses for that money but since he spent his life savings I hope he actually saw it first and didn't spend all that money based on what the press said about it.

[Nobody]

125. I wonder..... What is Mel Gibson going to do with the money he makes?

Just curious.

[LiberalFighter]

143. I'm not worried about the money Gibson makes on the movie

Because that is part of his living. And he put a lot of his own money into the production.

I wonder about these fundie "Christians" going to watch the movie.

From what I gathered... fundie "Christians" don't consider other Christian faiths such as Roman Catholics and Lutherans to be a Christian faith. Only those that are born again.

Since Gibson is Catholic aren't they supporting a non Christian?

[arewethereyet]

127. its better than $50-$100 in lottery tickets every week

[BiggJawn]

150. How is this worse than blowing up a $113,000 baseball?

When I heard what the guy who owns Harry Carey's spent over a 100 kilobucks to buy that baseball, then had it destoyed (wonder how much THAT "gala" cost?) I thought "I always heard COCAINE was God's way of telling you that you have too damn much money?"

Now I guess it's movie tickets.

I bought $90's worth of DVD's tonight. A Fool and his Money...

[LiberalFighter]

220. And the intent was to get rid of the curse...

now how would that get rid of the curse?
They had the curse before the alleged ball caused the Cubbie loss.

I suppose they had to find a scapegoat.

[Gringo]

152. I'm pretty sure that the word "Moran"

has lost about all of its comedic punch by now. Time to think up another.

[lazarus]

162. Sigh

Matthew
6:1
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:3
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

6:4
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

6:8
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

[Fla_Democrat]

165. I wonder, if he spent $42,000 on tickets for...

"Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election", would the tone be any different around here? :shrug:

[bobbyboucher]

182. Weak argument, and redundant.

Some other critical thinker made the same point except used Moore's "Bowling for Columbine". That is pure fantasy. Those movies have already been out for a long time and NO ONE did that. Only to "Passion". I wonder why?

So, when you awaken, let us know how this is not just grandstanding to push his religion.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

192. Hmmmmmm

It's interesting to see the anger this has provoked. For some that protest to "Not care" they certainly are very vocal about it.

[Fla_Democrat]

199. Sure

"Some other critical thinker made the same point except used Moore's "Bowling for Columbine". "

I take that to mean at least 2 people can see this from some other angle.

"That is pure fantasy."

Hench the words...... "wonder, if"

"Those movies have already been out for a long time and NO ONE did that.

Does not take away from the question. The question is, would the reaction be any different.

"Only to "Passion". I wonder why?"

I'm not convinced it is only this movie. This guy shells out $42,000. He sponsors others to see the movie. Is that any different than a person/group sponsoring the showing of a movie, paying the costs associated with it's showings, so people can see it at a reduced cost/free. http://www.whoseflorida.com/unprecedented.htm
Of the 14 shows listed, only 1 asks for money from the viewer. I'm sure they just forgot to list it, and that the patrons paid all costs and expenses for showing the movie. Maybe not.

"So, when you awaken, "

How'd you know I had taken a nap? :evilgrin:

" let us know how this is not just grandstanding to push his religion. "

I think it might be viewed more as pushing an agenda, the question is, if it was a more palatable agenda, would people around here still have their knickers in a knot. :shrug:

[Deb-Ter]

275. Bobby

I might consider it 'pushing' his religion if he grabbed you off the street corner and forced you to into the theater to watch a movie that you didn't want to see. But he didn't, the people that went to see the movie, went on their own accord. How is that 'pushing' your religion?

Nobody is being forced to see the movie...(I went because I am a Christian and I wanted to see it). It was a very moving 'experience' for this man, and he wanted to share it with others.

What I don't understand it the unnecessary hatefull sarcasism that you and a couple of others have posted here. Is it really a threat to you if somebody else see's the movie?

As to some of the other posts saying that the movie should focus on Jesus' teachings instead of the passion. The whole basis of the Christian faith is that Jesus is the Son of God, that he came to earth to die for our sins, and that he was resurrected after 3 days and ascended into heaven. That is the Christian faith....

I saw the movie and believe that the message was one of love, forgiveness and hope. The violence in this movie doesn't even compare to the violence in everyday movies released out of Hollywood today.

[Touchdown]

284. Morally bankrupt distortion of Christianity.

"s to some of the other posts saying that the movie should focus on Jesus' teachings instead of the passion. The whole basis of the Christian faith is that Jesus is the Son of God, that he came to earth to die for our sins, and that he was resurrected after 3 days and ascended into heaven. That is the Christian faith...."

If that is truly the case, then the Bible should be a leaflet, not a saga. "He died for our sins, and that's all that matters" is a creed. Creeds without the message is morally bankrupt. Most Christian annd Catholic faiths hold to the message while never forgetting the sacrifice. Alas, some fall away from that message, and focus on the gruesome to foster guilt among the faithful.

[dawn]

193. If he spent $42,000 on tickets to a movie...

a movie promoting another religion, such as Islam, Buddhism, or Wicca, would people see it as an act of charity or as someone trying to sway minds away from Christianity?

[LiberalFighter]

222. The proper response would be..

that they were offering others the opportunity to explore what their faith was all about.

But in all liklihood they would provide the venue within their place of worship. They would advertise thru direct mailings, newspaper advertisement, and inviting friends or co-workers. That is the method used in this location by the local churches. Mostly those that consider themselves Christian if I remember.

[Seldona]

195. Probably one of the fundies bowing down to the actor

who played Jesus.

Unbelievable.

[MAlibdem]

200. It doesn't make any sense

If the guy saw it once a week, even once a day of its run he wouldn't spend nearly as much...what he needs to buy out whole theatres to see it alone? Then he can buy the DVD...

It's beyond my comprehension...he believes Gibson is g-d? If he truly loved Jesus and his teachings as recorded by the Bible, wouldn't it make more sense for him to give the money to charity and not some movie theatre chain?

I feel sorry for this guy, who obviously has no real sense of what religiousity is.

[Eric J in MN]

207. I think the concept was that a church-group could see it for free, not

I think the concept was that a church-group could see it for free since he was paying, not that he would watch the movie alone.

[MAlibdem]

217. makes more sense i suppose

still dont like the guy, lol

[drewb]

211. Moran???

Guess there's more than one definition...

LOL...

:loveya:

[scottxyz]

227. What 'MuddleOfTheRoad' doesn't seem to get...

...is that it was a really SUCKY gift.

Yes MuddleOfTheRoad, you can insist over and over "It was a gift."

I pretty much wasn't contradicting that when I first opened this thread. That was pretty much a given. It wasn't being debated. I don't think anyone in this thread has said it wasn't a gift. (Or an act of charity. Or whatever.)

So stop debating whether it was a gift.

The point of the original post is that it was a really BAAAAAAD gift. A waste of (potentially all of) this guy's money.

Care to argue the actual debatable point (whether this was a good or bad gift), MuddleOfTheRoad - and stop restating the "given" (the fact that it was, indeed, a "gift") as if you've discovered something we all missed?

= = =

"Let them eat pixels."

[Nashvilliberal]

229. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" could hardly be more appropriate

Some Progressives cry to the heavens that Republican/Religious Righters want to legislate their own brand of Biblically based morality and force everyone else to live by it. Some Progressives say that we should all have the right to make our own choices, as long as it doesn't harm others, because the freedom to do so is guaranteed in the Constitution.

Unless it applies to Christians.

This double standard is so transparent as to *almost be* funny. It's his money. He spent it on a cause he believes in. And that's none of your business. And I'll tell you something else about Christians. I suspect he'll get nearly all of his money back. Right now, other Christians, inspired by his GIFT, will write checks and send them to his church.

Because they believe.

Scoff, if you care to. But here's the bottom line: If you don't want his Church telling you how to run your life, then don't tell him how to run his.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

230. How so

What inside information do you have that this was a waste of money or considerd by anyone who benefited from this a bad gift? Were you one of the ones that was provided a ticket by this man? Do you know anyone who was? Any hard accounts? Or is this mere opinion?

[Muddleoftheroad]

231. No, it was charity

An act of Christian charity and that seems to be the heart of what offends some here. Wow, we can't celebrate anything CHRISTIAN!!! Many here ARE debating the point that it was charity. Sorry you missed that.

It was not a "sucky" gift. It was an act of faith based on how well the film impacted his life.

While you may have no faith, it is unreasonable to assume others fall into the same spiritual void.

[Dob Bole]

259. Crappy gift?

You can determine whether it was a crappy gift when you have seen the movie. Even then, whether or not the movie was crappy cannot be objectively determined. It is still an opinion. Further, you have called someone a "Moran" because he gave a gift which, in your opinion, is crappy. Therefore, his "Moran" status is also an opinion. Therefore, MuddleoftheRoad is entitled to his own opinion- that the gift wasn't crappy and the guy isn't a "Moran," but perhaps a well-intentioned and even charitable fellow with full use of his grey matter.

[AlFrankenFan]

228. Holy crap

*smacks forehead* Damn.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

233. Wow, I didn't know how GOOD the Ignore feature feels!

No, not you, Paragon.

[scottxyz]

234. Shorter: "What stupid charity!" /// MuddleOfTheRoad: "But it was CHARITY!"

The original post in this thread, in GENERAL DISCUSSION, expressed the OPINION that donating $42,000 to watch a bad movie may be charity but it's a STUPID kind of charity.

MuddleOfTheRoad has wasted several posts claiming that this was CHARITY.

Nobody said it wasn't CHARITY, MuddleOfTheRoad. Nobody said the man didn't have the RIGHT or FREEDOM to spend his $42,000 as he chooses.

This thread is not about whether a man has a right to spend $42,000 in what he sees as charity.

This thread is saying that a person who does so - WHILE ENTIRELY WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS, and WHILE PRACTICING WHAT COULD ENTIRELY CORRECTLY BE TERMED "CHARITY" - a person who does so is a MORON.

The question, MiddleOfTheRoad, is not whether this was an act of charity.

The question, MuddleOfTheRoad, is whether the person performing this act of charity is a MORON.

Could you please address the QUESTION, MuddleOfTheRoad. We all KNOW this person committed an act of CHARITY. We know they have a right to commit any act of charity they want.

(They could buy baby bottle and cribs and pampers and mail them to a woman who just had an abortion as well. Under your naive definition of CHARITY, such a stupid act would also qualify as charity.)

(They could buy tickets for their entire parish to see another movie about Christ, "The Last Temptation of Christ" - which many found to be not so supportive of Christ.)

The questiopn, is, MuddleOfTheRoad - is this person a MORON? NOT because they spent so much money. Because maybe the MOVIE IS NOT SO GOOD.

These are the questions here, MuddleOfTheRoad:

(1) Was this act of charity ill-advised?

(2) Could the money have been spent on something better? Could the money have been spent on a LOT of better things, given how bad and violent and gory and slanted and divisive and sado-masochistic many people find this movie?

(3) Was the person spending this money hoodwinked? Are they a moron?

PLEASE answer one of these questions from the original post - and STOP answering your own made-up question over and over again which nobody asked: "Is this an act of charity?"

Enough of the third-grade straw-man tactics, MuddleOfTheRoad. People are catching on.

You can play "reductio ad absurdum" some of the time with a roomful of people, but with you can't play it for long with 40,000 people on DU.

[Columbia]

236. You should try to read this thread over again

"The original post in this thread, in GENERAL DISCUSSION, expressed the OPINION that donating $42,000 to watch a bad movie may be charity but it's a STUPID kind of charity."

The original post said nothing about this act being charity or not.

The only opinion expressed was in the title which obviously did judge it to be unwise ("moranic?").

As for this - "Nobody said it wasn't CHARITY"

Actually, lots of posters did in fact attempt to argue that it was not charity, which is why Muddle and others have made such an effort to point out that is indeed charity.

As for your questions, I won't speak for Muddle, but I will say for myself that any answer given is simply an opinion. We all have opinions that differ, but in a civil, tolerant, and yes progressive world, we should respect and applaud those who wish to do an act of charity to the cause they deem worthy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

254. Part of your silly argument has been addressed

So, a person who does something to aid the religious faith of others is now a "moron" in your view. How enlightened. How progressive.

Actually, sending things to a woman who just had an abortion to make her feel bad is not only rude, it's offensive.

Had The Last Temptation of Christ also had an impact on the man, it would have charity to buy tickets for others. Of course, he would have found them unreceptive for the most part.

As to the questions which I have already answered, here is recap for those who can't follow a thread:

1) Was this act of charity ill-advised? - No. He said the movie changed his life. He wished to similarly help others.

(2) Could the money have been spent on something better? -- No. Not in his view. Again, the movie changed his life.

(3) Was the person spending this money hoodwinked? Are they a moron? No. And no. When something changes your life, you aren't being hoodwinked or a moron.

[drewb]

276. I find myself agreeing with Muddle again for the second time in ONE month!

Seems like the minute we get out of I/P we find common ground...

Interesting!!!

:yourock:

:loveya:

[Deb-Ter]

279. Scott

"Nobody said it wasn't CHARITY, MuddleOfTheRoad. Nobody said the man didn't have the RIGHT or FREEDOM to spend his $42,000 as he chooses."

Actually, there were several comments posted that did argue whether it was charity or not and MuddleoftheRoad was answering those comments.

"This thread is saying that a person who does so - WHILE ENTIRELY WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS, and WHILE PRACTICING WHAT COULD ENTIRELY CORRECTLY BE TERMED "CHARITY" - a person who does so is a MORON."

This is your opinion...and you are certainly entitled to it.

"1) Was this act of charity ill-advised?"

It depends on what your level of 'faith' is, this is a very moving experience and may inspire Christians to do more for their faith.

"(2) Could the money have been spent on something better? Could the money have been spent on a LOT of better things, given how bad and violent and gory and slanted and divisive and sado-masochistic many people find this movie?"

Oh, well, now this one is certainly funny. The loudest 'protest' on the violence and gore, sado masochistic and divisive charges are being made by the people that 'DIDN'T WATCH THE MOVIE'....how enlightening!

"(3) Was the person spending this money hoodwinked? Are they a moron?"

Just an opinion call, but he probably isn't a moron because he was smart enough to earn that much disposable income to begin with. Personally I think that anybody that spends money on weed is a MORAN also but I digress....

[EV1Ltimm]

262. I dropped $42,000 for movie tickets before...

but it was for Gigli.

Lots of empty seats.

[VOX]

263. Tax break: The guy's a financial analyst who gave 4000 of the 6000 tix...

*back* to the church = charitable donation = tax break. "Selfless" act my ass, Mel!

http://www.eclipsemagazine.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1914&forum=1
"...The Bonnemas gave 3,000 tickets to their church and 1,000 to the Dallas Theological Seminary. That left them with 2,000..."

[artr2]

278. What a stupid

Fucking asshole

[liberalpress]

283. Okay, I'm only going to attempt this once...

... then I'm going away. I am not going to see the movie. I appreciate the Passion, but I'm all about the Resurrection.

If you want to see it, feel free.

If it uplifts you Spiritually, that's good

If you are an unbeliever, and don't want to see it, don't. I know of no one who has forced an unbeliever to see this film, and if they have it's wrong and shame on them.

I won't make fun of your atheism. If I can't, then shame on me. Conversely, I ask you not to make fun of my Christianity. If you can't then shame on you.

Each person has a spirit that needs to be nourished, subject to the best of his/her understanding. Some people nourish that spirit with art, literature, and convivial friends. Others use prayer, gratitude and worship. As long as that soul is nourished, and grows, I don't care how it happens.

I make no claim to know for certain whether or not that soul is immortal. I only know what I believe. You may believe the opposite, but it is what you believe. Those beliefs are known as faith.

As long as the what you are feeding your soul is nourishing, it is beneficial.

That's why choose not to dwell on the Passion. I understand the sacrifice intellectually. I don't believe seeing it graphically portrayed is particularly nourishing.

But if you do, mad props. Enjoy the soul food.

[bhunt70]

285. He can do whatever he wants to with his money, even if you dont agree.

It was an act of charity, allowing other people to go see a movie for free if they want.

Some people are quick to see something bad just because they dont agree with it.