BBV: "Proper" paper audit trail

[Pobeka]

Brainstorm:

When refering to paper audit trails, add the qualifier on the front so it becomes:

"Proper paper audit trail".

Say it every time you type/speak the phrase.

It can make an important (and true) psychological distinction in the minds of average non-techie voters -- that anything without a paper audit trail is "improper".

[BeFree]

1. Sorry, We have no record of your vote

You just have to trust us. And that computer over there. And the guy who programmed it, you know, that guy that no one knows anything about: Dr. Who.

Okay, now vote.

Oops, sorry, it was unplugged. Try again, later.

[nostamj]

2. but the key is not the 'paper trail'

the key is the voter verified paper ballot.

[gristy]

3. yeah, get rid of the paper trail

VVPB is where it's at, baby.

[Bromd]

4. Paper Trail Trials

Even as a computer geek I've found the only people who don't want to keep a paper trail for a business related program are those who are planning to cheat at something.

What is wanted is like a credit card receipt, a voter verified bar-code with printed backup of the votes registered that the voter has to sign/verify with a thumbprint or something optional for those who can't sign because of physical handicap. That's a secure voting trail, the only proper way to do it.

[gristy]

While your heart is in the right place, your plan is lacking

The backup ballot must NOT be signed by the voter. One important foundation of our democracy is our concept and implementation of the "secret ballot". The voter signs a log when they enter the voting place, and that's the only thing they will sign.

And the backup paper trail or VVPB needs to be written in plain english. A voter has no way to independently verify a bar code.

[ex_jew]

8. Ah, the secret ballot

This little bit of fun will cost us our democracy FOR SURE ! It leads directly to non-auditable DRE.

If you're not man enough to let people know how you voted, maybe you're just not man enough to vote. People DIED to give us liberty. Now you want to enjoy liberty completely without risk. Well you aren't going to have it. Say goodnight, democracy.

[gristy]

9. You are attacking me?

Maybe you want to THINK about this for a bit?

on edit: read post #7

[ex_jew]

13. No - I'm attacking people who unthinkingly assume that the secret ballot

is worth writing off the whole fricking democracy for. Because of this alleged nightmare scenario from the 19th century where people could be seen casting their vote and then getting their case of beer or whatever, we are locked into this death spiral of completely imaginary voting. As to the potential for "rich people" to buy votes one at a time, I would rather face that issue than what we have now, which is that nobody REALLY knows how the vote went - it's all inside the computer, and nobody's business but the manufacturers.

If vote buying is really a major crisis facing our country, maybe there are other ways to address it, such as undercover enforcement, without compromising the integrity of the entire process.

I'm very happy to preserve the "secret ballot" provided it is done in such a way that the election has integrity. Whether this means paper ballots, paper audit trails, statistical voting, whatever, I don't care, but I find a secret ballot that doesn't necessarily count to be HIGHLY unattractive.

[gristy]

15. OK, but since last June when I started working on the voting issue

I have never heard a proposal such as yours that the secret ballot be eliminated and that somehow a non-secret ballot is a solution to the problem.

You and I seem to be in agreement in our oppostion to electronic voting. The solution I advocate (as do many others) is neatly summarized in my sig line, which I've used since last summer. Public ballots are not needed or desirable as part of that solution.

[Pobeka]

18. This is interesting thought -- a grey area worth understanding.

The scenario that scares me, is where the paper ballot is printed out by a computer, but results are electronically fed into a central system. Then you could, potentially, have a situation where lots of people are able to make, say $20 to vote for a certain candidate, and the "vote buyer" can check that central system (with legitimate or illegitimate access), and hand out $20 bills after the fact.

How many votes are worth buying, and buyable, at what price? Could you buy enough apathetic voters to make a difference, *and* not be noticed?

That doesn't seem very feasible, but I suppose it *could* happen. With no voter signatures it could not happen.

[Pobeka]

7. Welcome to DU Bromd!

This issue has been discussed at length here at DU.

The problem with signing a ballot, is in the USA we have a requirement that ballots be anonymous, once the voter has left the voting booth. That prevents unethical rich people from paying poor people to vote a particular way...

The voter verified paper ballot means the voter can literally look at the legal ballot, which is on a piece of paper, and say "yep, that's my ballot", drop it in the ballot box, and know with confidence another (ethical) human being(s) looking at the ballot will know which candidates were voted for in each race.

[Andy_Stephenson]

10. Not a receipt

a Ballot. Not a paper trail a ballot.

[Pobeka]

6. For sure!!

[RedEagle]

11. Just don't use certain terms alone, without qualifiers

The ballot must be paper (or they'll claim vapor is a ballot)

The ballot must be verified (they like to claim that printing apper out AFTER the polls close suffices)

Reciept is used to steer the subject towards voters taking them with them.

Sometimes you even have to add, "Human readable without a key"


Voter verified paper ballot.

I think that is already proper. When you add proper, you then have to add another layer of definition, although the intent is right on. What is a proper voter verified paper ballot?

[nostamj]

12. it also suggests

that there could be an "improper" voter verified paper ballot

let's put it this way:

the only proper ballot, the only proper way of recording our vote, is with a voter verified paper ballot

[Pobeka]

17. Yeah, I understand the ambiguity you point out.

I'm all ears for any other suggestions, and I'm thinking about it too...

[Pobeka]

5. Doh! -- yeah. "Proper voter verified paper ballot".

I still think it's important to get the "Proper" in there. Anything else is improper...

[ParanoidPat]

14. I suggest a "Proper Audit Trail using Voter Verified Paper Ballots".

Says it all I think. :evilgrin:

:kick:

[Pobeka]

16. Yes that says it all, but it's quite a mouthful.

What I'm after is something short, a 5 second sound-byte type thing -- the "Voter Verified Paper Ballot" fits that, but somehow, we need to install the concept that this, by default is the proper way to do it, and anything else is lacking.

I'll think some more on this. I hope all of those reading this thread will too. It can be another tool to combat those "conspiracy theorist" soundbytes that are getting thrown our way.

[ParanoidPat]

19. OK, Drop the word 'trail' and make the word 'audit' plural....

"Proper audits using voter verified paper ballots"

Still just a tad off..... How about,

"Proper audits through voter verified paper ballots"

That sounds a little nicer but I'm not sure yet. Maybe,

"legitimate audits through voter verified paper ballots"

It adds two syllables but adds more force making anything else illegitimate! :evilgrin:

The sentence "We have a right to conduct legitimate audits through voter verified paper ballots" takes 3-3.5 seconds to say.

The phrase "Demand legitimate audits through voter verified paper ballots" comes in at 3 seconds or less.

"Any reasonable person would demand legitimate audits through voter verified paper ballots." comes in at about 4 seconds. The words in bold are the message you're reinforcing.

This is also a mouthful but it makes a good 'sound-byte' because it's hard to argue with and forcefully states your case framed by its legitimacy as a right. We need to claim this as a right in order to get them to try to explain why it isn't one. If you add the statement It's our RIGHT! to the end of that last sentence, you get a good solid message to frame the debate in about 5 seconds. :)

What exactly are you looking for?

[nostamj]

20. how about

real audits require voter verified paper ballots

alliteration always helps...

[ParanoidPat]

21. Damn!

LOL! You said it, thanks! :evilgrin:

[Pobeka]

22. Ok, OK. 5 second sound byte was the wrong idea.

*Catchy phrase*, something that easily sticks in the head. "Voter verified paper ballots", is almost there, but I was thinking we need just a little more so after the phrase is stuck in your head, you automatically/subconciously know that anything else *is* illegitimate.

Some more ideas:

"Properly created voter verified paper ballots"
"Properly printed voter verified paper ballots"

My current personal favorite:

"voter verifiable, legitimate paper ballots"

[ParanoidPat]

26. What you're looking for are 'catch phrases' and 'terms'.....

IMHO, "Voter Verified Paper Ballots" is a good catch phrase just the way it is. Anything more and it gets muddled. "Legitimate audits" is also an effective catch phrase. Terms such as "trustworthy" and "imperative" also work in our favor when used to articulate our argument. It's the skillful use of catch phrases and terms that help us frame the debate. The trick is to use them early and often. :)

Examine the catch phrases used by the Bush* administration to get us into the Iraq war. 'Ruthless dictator', 'gassed his own people', 'rape rooms' and 'weapons of mass destruction' were all chosen for the emotional response they evoke and were repeated as often as possible. Study the speech writers use of both positive and negative adjectives when describing their talking points and contrasting them with ours.

Look at the way they use descriptors like "activist judges". Use the same method to describe their systems. Words like "problematic" and "unauditable" should be used every time you mention their equipment.

Be careful trying to find a 'one size fits all' solution. Multiple catch phrases and terms, both negative and positive, should be developed to frame both our position and theirs. :evilgrin:

[Pobeka]

23. Voter verifiable, legitimate paper ballots.

My current personal favorite...

[nostamj]

24. less is still more...

if it's voter verified and a paper ballot, it's legimate in my book!

aren't I a pain???

[Pobeka]

25. I know YOU know it's legitimate.

It's the other 291 million americans I'm worried about :-)

Now, where did I put that preparation-H? :evilgrin:

[RedEagle]

27. Probably to long, but.....

Voter Verified Paper Ballot- the only REAL vote


Vote for Real
Get your vote on paper
Voter Verified Paper Ballots

Vaper is not paper!