Help me see the light!

[Must_B_Free]

No offense intended, but these are my honest impressions so far:

I have always been a teensy bit creeped out by Christianity... Started with Josh McDowell as presented by a teacher in 9th grade.

1. many seem to want you to believe things that are unbelieveable

2. most of the time they seem to want to take control of your life and lead you somewhere

3. many seem to want to assimilate everyone into their one "right" world view.

Now, that said, can anyone help me understand:

1. How God has a "son"?

2. Concept of how Christ can take on "all our sins". Never understood how this "truth of what happened" as presented by the Passion has anything to do with "sins" people are born with thousands of years later.

3. Being mortal and superhuman both?, having magic powers, but apparantly being able to be killed, but coming back to life anyway (Is this really dying? Isn't that just cheating?)

4. How does His Blood wash you clean?

It just never really made logical sense to me, I have to admit. I have never understood this "blood of christ" stuff... I can the logic of The Golden Rule, but this blood stuff.... I don't get it. Seems like a creepy cult where once people are tricked into sacrificing their basic grasp on the observable laws of physical reality - they are open up to being malleable to whatever the controller wants to create in their minds...

I need a hard physical explanation of how this stuff makes sense.

[AngryYoungMan]

1. I'm a Christian by background but not really by faith.

I have only two points to make:

1. There is a wide spectrum of Christianity. Fundamentalism is only one component. The struggle between different interpretations of Christ's teachings was most dramatically demonstrated in 1517 when Martin Luther singlehandedly created the Reformation. Even in the New Testament they are arguing over how it's supposed to work.


2. Science vs. Faith arguments are very weird because the foundations of the two positions are mutually exclusive. Each fails according to the others' precepts. This is why you will find Nobel Prize winning scientists who believe personally in a Christian God; it is also why "Creation Science" is dangerous nonsense.

[Must_B_Free]

2. But

"This is why you will find Nobel Prize winning scientists who believe personally in a Christian God;"

How can a scientist be so arrogant as to discount any other culture's independently formed world interpretation? The sheer egocentrism is like saying "only my observation counts".

[AngryYoungMan]

3. I agree that it's contradictory.

But that's how it works. Matters of Faith and Matters of Reason are totally distinct. I agree that you're not going to find, for example, a Fundamentalist who's a chemist, because he would disagree with himself over evolution, the age of the earth, etc.

[AngryYoungMan]

4. Also, some people value the rituals

As spiritual props they "kind of" believe in.

For example, when I was in college a close friend of mine was killed. For the next week I was a basket case; I couldn't sleep or get drunk or anything.

Then, after the funeral service, I felt a kind of "release." I stress that I'm not religious. But standing with 100 people and reciting the prayers (and participating in a ritual that goes back, in one form or another, thousands of years) meant I could finally feel the booze and fatigue.

I think Religion for most people who are quasi-believers is like that.

I realize I'm not quite addressing your questions

[Must_B_Free]

5. ok

in the context of daily routine its silly to try to knock anyone;s system - stup[id to be judgemental. But it disturbs me that people find The Passion both "Horrifying and Beautiful" in the same sentence, as the "before and after" woman on CNN said, coming out of the film

[AngryYoungMan]

7. I thoroughly agree with that part.

Don't get me wrong; I HATE this shit going on right now with this movie. The discussion of whether religion is good for society is quite a different one than your original question.

Look at the world right now: a struggle for oil and power turned into a false struggle over "faith" at home and overseas. We're supposed to be a free secular society and I support that completely. I think bible-belters opposing the "non-Christians" overseas are dragging us to the same level as the radicals who support bin Laden or the Shah.

I'm totally with you on that! It's just a differerent conversation.

Mel Gibson's a scumbag.

[alcuno]

6. Yikes. That's a tall order.

1. Jesus was conceived by the power of the Spirit of God; fulfilling earlier prophecies of Israel and named Emmanuel.

2. I could probably answer this question but it would take a long time. Basically, we are all born as sinners. Think of Adam and Eve getting tossed out of Eden.

3. I'm skipping #3. It's called sacrifice.

4. At the Last Supper, Luke 22:14
Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."

You want science? Sorry.

[Bandit]

17. "Think of Adam and Eve getting tossed out of Eden."

This is one that really gets to me. Adam and Eve had Cain and Able and Cain killed Able and then went on to marry a girl from another tribe. ?????????? Where did this other tribe come from?

[pacifictiger]

8. so many of the teachings by

the christian churches derive from what was basically "theatre" to try to impart a spiritual message, then that theatre became the message instead of the message itself.

For me the christian bottom line is contained in Jesus' sermon on the mount, and his full response to the question "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" (matthew 22: 36-40) He begins with the well known "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord the God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." It is followed by "And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

So often neglected is the very next verse - "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

In other words, in Jesus' opinion, the most important thing is to recognize that you are to love and honor whatever power created the universe above all else (behave as if the god in all nature/life mattered), and love and treat other humans as you would like to be loved and treated.

All of the rest is storytelling theatrical window dressing to varying degrees. Unfortunately that biblical message has been twisted by power hungry leaders over the centuries to serve as a tool for fear based control rather than unconditional love.

[Must_B_Free]

9. Wow - I think this is what I was looking for

Such an succinct answer.

So the touching part of the Passion is the sacrifice - I think bringing out that word helps me place the story in context that makes more sense. That part of the message is not coming through enough in the discussion, but I think I can finally understand the film now.

If I can get a golden rule message out of it, I'll maybe accept it, otherwise I'm going to be really disappointed in it.

[starroute]

10. As a side question -- why does Bush keep screwing that quote up?

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord the God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment." It is followed by "And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

But . . .

Remarks by the President at Republican Party of Florida Majority Dinner Universal Studios Portofino Hotel Orlando, Florida June 21, 2002: "You can love your neighbor like you'd like to be loved yourself."

President George W. Bush on October 8, 2003 signing the proclamation of October as Domestic Violence Awareness Month: "If you want to love your neighbor like you'd like to be loved yourself, there's ample opportunity to do so in the fight against domestic violence."

Remarks by the President to Coal Miners and Their Families and Community Green Tree Fire Department: "You're responsible for loving somebody like you'd like to be loved yourself."


I apologize for thread-jacking here, but this one keeps bothering me and I'd love to have an answer. Is this an accepted alternative translation of that passage from Matthew? I've always thought it meant, "care for the well-being of others as you care for your own well-being," and assumed that Bush's phrasing was just one more bizarre Bushism. But I see that you also restate it as "love and treat other humans as you would like to be loved and treated."

So what is the real meaning of that commandment? Is it just an alternative version of the Golden Rule? Or does it have a quite different significance?

[pacifictiger]

11. I think sometimes we can

get too caught up in the preciseness of individual words like lawyers do in court rather than the essence behind the words as taken in the context of the whole thought.
I take it to mean that treating others as kindly as you would treat yourself if you were in their circumstance, is a must in life rather than an option. How each person chooses to act that out is left up to our own interpretation, but the manner of that action will tell more about how spiritually connected each person is more than any words that spout from their mouth. Jesus alluded to this when he said "by their fruits you shall know them." It is easy to spout that you know what should be done, much more difficult and challenging to actually do it. Mother Teresa is possibly the best modern example of really walking the talk. Most of the rest of us are not so linked to god in spite of what they say (Pat Robertson comes to mind as the antithises!)

[RebelOne]

12. I'm an atheist and I have the same questions.

How people can believe these myths is beyond my understanding.

[slappypan]

13. agree

I have tried to study and understand and I have concluded that I just don't get it. I appreciate the value of teaching people to treat each other with kindness and compassion, but why that must must include accepting as literally true myths based on some of the darkest aspects of our history such as human sacrifice is just beyond my capacity to comprehend.

[pacifictiger]

14. you can be an athiest

but that in itself is a chosen belief. However, any reasonably thinking person must acknowledge that there is a power of some sort that is greater than you, the individual. Some force created the universe, and everthing in it, right down to the dna and elemental atoms in your body. When you die your body remains but that spark that makes your personality is no longer there. Why? Religion of any shade is mans feeble attempt to explain the mysteries of the universe. If you as an athiest believe that nature is more powerful than any concept of god that modern churches portray, I agree with you. If you believe that you as an individual are more powerful than unknown forces that allowed you be born into this world, then I would say you are the deluded one.

[pacifictiger]

15. Myth is contained in all

man made religions. Like I said above, it is part of the theatre, and right or wrong, has been used as an attempt to teach people how to live happier lives and to try to prevent civil chaos. Check out "the power of myth" by Joseph Campbell.
The greatest myth is that the christian fundamentalists would have you believe that they posess the only one true answer.
Buddha taught to live is to suffer, but, suffering can be overcome by attempting to become enlightened. And he lays out certain steps to follow in that quest. His core teachings are remarkably similar to the core teachings of jesus.

[Skittles]

16. I am a reasonably thinking person

and I don't believe in any such nonsense.