Park Service book says "Noah's flood" created the Grand Canyon

[SoCalDem]

http://www.ems.org/rls/2004/02/26/national_park_se.html

Your tax dollars at work folks

For Immediate Release: Thursday, February 26, 2004
Contact: Chas Offutt [phone]


NATIONAL PARK SERVICE EMBRACES CREATIONISM
Creationist Book Re-Ordered & Offered as "Natural History";
Geologists Rebuffed

Washington, DC — The leadership of the National Park Service is ignoring calls by its own senior scientists to withdraw approval for a creationist book now being sold in park facilities, according to documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). Instead, the book, which claims that the Grand Canyon is only 6,000 years old, has been re-ordered and is being marketed on the web as "natural history."

A review by Park Service geologists not only found the book wildly inaccurate but that its sale violated agency policies and undercut its scientific education programs. On January 25, David Shaver, the Chief of the Park Service's Geologic Resources Division sent a memo to Headquarters calling for removal of the book, concluding —

"Our review of …NPS policies and Grand Canyon: A Different View, lead us to conclude that this book: does not use accurate, professional and scholarly knowledge; is not based on science but a specific religious doctrine; does not further the public's understanding of the Grand Canyon's existence; does not further the mission of the National park Service…and finally, that this book should not have been approved for sale in NPS affiliated book sales."


more.................

[Mari333]

1. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is all I have to say. n/t

[Catshrink]

9. I was thinking more along the lines of

unfuckingbelievable.

[Catch22Dem]

2. That's reeeeeal nice

Sometimes I fear there will NEVER be progress in this area. Instead, people would rather believe in the invisible man. Science has disproven the whole 6000 year thing time and again. I fear nothing irritates me more.

[madrchsod]

3. life is so much simpler when you turn

your life over to the teachings of the bible. evolution? we don`t need no stinking evolution....

[BlueJazz]

4. Some my friends in Europe and the Scandinavian

counties ask me sometimes why so many Americans have their head in the sand. I'm so sick and fucking tired of defending half the population of this country.....I think from now on I'm just gonna' say because "half of them are ignorant, stupid religious nuts"

[Mick Knox]

5. I was at the grand canyon a year ago..

I never heard anything about the flood...

That said.. um.. isnt this article saying that a book, one of many, is being sold in the book store (a for profit endeavor) which presents a type of creationist point of view..

That how I read it..

Heres a thought.. buy a different book. The park service didnt write this book.. they are just selling various books. I know they dont teach it.. I was there.

Relax.

[truhavoc]

6. I think the point is how much influence these people have.

My fiance is an Antropology major who specializes in evolution. I was in the dentist office (getting a cavity filled) and she told him about her anthro major because he asked and he just went off saying how all anthropology is a fraud and that the bible can explain everything. For example since people like Adam lived to be 300 years old or so "obviously" there would be changes to the skeletal structure that we know today. Thus when we find homonids during digs, they aren't relatives of ours just very old people from the days of the old testament. HAHAHA! And I imagine the dinosaurs died out 7000 years ago too. It is complete nonsense that doesn't even deserve to be put in the same realm as "natural history".

[Lars39]

7. I'd be afraid that guy wasn't up on the latest dentistry techniques,

especially for pain!

[truhavoc]

75. You should see me basically kicking my fiance

telling her to shut up about it while i'm getting drilled on! lol I guess I was completely in the dark on this one, I thought it was only something that fundies truly believed in. I just guess that anyone who has had to take so much science in order to become a doctor, to hold those views seems unintellegable.

[mjjoe]

12. Coincidence...

A similar story about the Grand Canyon, Young Earth advocates, and dentists:

"Self-Appointed Experts"

The site belongs to a prof at the University of Wisconsin in Green Bay.

[gander2112]

94. I just shake my head when I

... come across these people. I have stopped trying to argue the point with them. They are some of the most in-flexible, unthinking people in existence.

I swear another dark age will be welcomed by many of them.

Geoff

[SoCalDem]

10. Um... the subject line did not say it was the "only" book

It's just that there is NO place at the National Park Service for "religious fundamentalist bible-thumping fairy tales".. These types of "earth science tomes" belong at the Christian book stores and at the monthly church rummage sales.. They do NOT belong at the bookstores of the National Park Sevice..

and as to the "equal time" issue... If I wrote a beautifully illustrated book about the Grand Canyon, and my premise was that giant mole rats "ate away" the dirt, should MY book be presented as well?? It would be as factually based as the Noah explanation...

I don't give a rip what the fundies' version of "creation" is, as long as they tell it to willing supplicants, and do not try to "infect" the general public with their nonsense..

This is just another way that they keep chipping away at the foundation of our nation.. A little here.. a little there.. They are determined and patient.. and very dangerous.

[kalian]

8. So...how do they explain the canyons on Mars...?

:shrug:
Was Noah and his gang up there as well...? :eyes:

[BlueJazz]

36. God put them there to "Test our Faith"

..And the only thing it tests in me is my patience!

[jsw_81]

73. No, it's a trick by Satan

And those evil secular evoolooshinists are going straight to Hell! </freeper>

[knight_of_the_star]

11. Excuse me, but

WTF!?!?!?!?!??!??!?!??!??!!!!???

[rfkrocks]

13. in fact my great grandfather raised tyrannosaurs Rex's for a living

it was tough in old days-I'M planning to write a book on it-little house on the Triassic

[SoCalDem]

15. Don't forget to include Jesus' pet dinosaur

Barney the Barrabasaurus :)

[rfkrocks]

16. LOL

[Columbia]

14. Get a grip people

This is ONE book being sold in book stores, not an endorsement of an idea of any sort. If you don't like it, don't buy it! Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it right to ban or censor any type of writing.

Additionally, the title of this thread is very misleading, it misleads readers to believe that the Park Service is teaching this theory when it is obviously not.

[mike1963]

18. That is not the point. This isn't just ANY 'book store', its part of the

National Park system. And as such, sanctioned by the federal gov't.
But I'll allow it if they include books detailing the creation of the universe based on native Americans' version...that okay with you?

[Columbia]

19. I don't care what they sell related to the Grand Canyon

The only thing that doesn't belong is any type of censorship. You might not care since it isn't something you agree with anyway (and neither do I), but one day when they start banning books you do believe in, don't come crying about it when you've been complicit in the process all along.

[Mick Knox]

20. I stand by columbia..

people buy it.. or they wouldnt sell it. Let em make money anyway they can .. Its not like your eyeballs will burn out of your head if you see a creationism book cover in a book store. Sounds like a stupid theory for how the grand canyon was created anyway.

[ConsAreLiars]

26. So you agree that religious tracts

should be sold or otherwise distributed by US gov't agencies? Should they distribute creationist views from all religions equally, or should only the views of this particular sect be represented on taxpayer funded bookshelves? What criteria should be used when selecting religious writings for distribution by gov't agencies? Do you think someone like Franklin Graham would be a good person to guide these decisions, or would you prefer Dobson or Robertson?

[Mick Knox]

29. Yep.. Whatever sells..

is fine. Its just a for profit book store designed to help the park manage and sustain itself. I dont believe the separation applies here.. they do not preach this, they do not recognize this, i never saw any indication of this.. and i was there.. they sell it. It doesnt bother me..

[ConsAreLiars]

31. Maybe porno too, if they can make a buck?

Is that the only thing that matters here? Maybe sell off some view property too? Do you seriously argue that that book was put out there in order to make money? No, of course not. You're just trying to defend this further erosion of the Constitution separation of church and state using whatever specious argument seems to work. First you repeat the "book-banning" blather from: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0108gc_book_ban.asp and now it is the holy profit motive. What next? Divine revelation?

[Mick Knox]

33. Let me clarify..

First off .. I never posted book ban blather.. nor have I ever seen that website..

I dont know where the line is.. porno would cross it.. a book related to the grand canyon.. does not... Since is directly applies to the grand canyon.

[ConsAreLiars]

39. Sorry

That was "columbia" who brought that argument in. You merely agreed with it.

The "censorship" argument is a favorite of fundies trying to use gov't agencies to further their religious recruiting efforts, as was shown in this case by the talking points at the site I listed, points picked up from there and repeated by Free Republic and Worldnet and such and now brought into DU. You agreed when your comrade "columbia" repeated their argument here. If you rejected that bogus blather, you should not have said "I agree" in your response.

So, how about selling soft-core "Grand Canyon Girls?" Or maybe "Gay Studs at the Canyon" calendars? As long as it makes a buck, right? They certainly have as much relevance as some fairy tale presented as fact, and might sell much better. It's just about making money anyway, so you say. After all, from some peculiar perspectives, buck-making (or the "non-censorship" of fundie fables) is certainly more important than helping people understand the formation of the Grand Canyon.

Reminds me of the disciples of Strauss. Use whatever argument serves your agenda. The facts are irrelevant. If one doesn't work, try another.

[Mick Knox]

41. Fairy Tales

In general if the Grand Canyon sold fairy tales about the grand canyon at their book store.. it wouldnt bother me in the least. Old mother hubbard lived in the canyon... etc... so .. nope doesnt bother me. sorry. I dont particularly care one way or the other.. we obviously will need to agree to disagree.. so I shall depart the thread. I'm not going to agree to you imposing some irrational fear of fairy tales on everyone else, no matter what vitrol occompanies said fear of fairy tales.

Porn and fairy tales are too different things.. btw.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. You misrepresent my words

I objected to this "fairy tale" being "presented as fact." Fairy tales, legends and mythology presented as such are a different subject altogether.

Oh, and porn and fairy tales are actually rather similar in many ways, not that it has much relevance here. I mentioned them in addressing your odd claim that making money is in itself a sufficient criteria for selecting material for the Park Service bookstores and your claim that the "fairy tale presented as fact" in question was justified because they sold some.

[Mick Knox]

43. I said id agree to disagree.. but i cant so here goes..

this is kinda fun..

How do you know they are being presented as fact? I know for a FACT that not one of the guides or areas I was in in the Grand Canyon EVER mentioned this... In fact the opposite.. it is created by the river... and other things.. it was completely scientific. Theres even a movie you watch. I never EVER heard this perspective passed on. I never heard of it, or even the theory in general until you mentioned it

I clearly stated.. Grand Canyon related items that make money are fine in my opinion.. If they are selling a fairly tale related to the canyon.. it just doesnt get me all hot and bothered. As we've gone into the absurdity tribulations with the porn stuff etc.. I simply dismiss that as irrelevent rhetoric. Christians go there too.. and you dont have the right to impose yourself on them anymore than they do on you.

The grand canyon having some book in it that presents the fairy tale that it was created during the flood.. big friggin deal.

Explain to me why its a big deal sans the rhetoric.

[SoCalDem]

44. Okay, try this...

Lets say you are at a religious retreat somewhere and there are all kinds of religious books for sale there, all telling you stories about your religion and its beliefs, and mixed in with those books, is a book on witchcraft..

No one is "forcing" anyone to buy that book, but answer honestly now..

Would that book be allowed to stay???:evilgrin:

Same premise... The tenets of your faith are as believed by your group, as is scientific study to the rest of the world.. The books aboout the GC are very relevant, since lots of children will read those books, and may even use them as reference books for school work..

The church reference works the same way.. Your church has a set of beliefs and values that it holds as truth.. Would they risk having a child read a book that was the antipathy of their belief system...to make a buck at the book sale :)

** the use of the word "you" is in no way intended to single any one person out.. I use it here in the same way as the "royal we"

[Mick Knox]

45. Giving it a try..

I got softball umpire school in the morning.. so I cant do this all night.. unfortunately.. so If I depart .. dont be mad! we gave it a good run and remained i think decently respectful. I find that refreshing! and I thank you. As with anything else.. I think you have a right to address this.. I simply think you are wrong.

Lets say you are at a religious retreat somewhere and there are all kinds of religious books for sale there, all telling you stories about your religion and its beliefs, and mixed in with those books, is a book on witchcraft..

No one is "forcing" anyone to buy that book, but answer honestly now..

Would that book be allowed to stay???

Here's the problem.. your premise is flawed to begin with.. unless you are suggesting it was miracalized there.. it was obviously ordered by the people there. I wouldnt think a law should be passed against having it there.. nor would I lodge complaint. If someone randomly placed it there.. the can do whatever they want with it.



Same premise... The tenets of your faith are as believed by your group, as is scientific study to the rest of the world.. The books aboout the GC are very relevant, since lots of children will read those books, and may even use them as reference books for school work..

So? Contrary to what I perceive as the implication... teaching children about god, aside from being the sole business of the parent, is not inherently bad.. and IMO.. quite the opposite.

Would this fair tale trick you? Would it trick a child of yours? Scar them forever? Is it worse than the average sit com? If you accidently laid thine eyes upon it, would you become suddenly Christian against your will? Would you begin preaching the great Noah's Ark Grand Canyon theory despite opposition?

I mean come on.. whats the problem.


The church reference works the same way.. Your church has a set of beliefs and values that it holds as truth..

Just so were clear.. I havent been to church in over 17 years. (aside from funerals and a few weddings)

Would they rick having a child read a book that was the antipathy of thier belief system...to make a buck at the book sale

I see no need to impose my belief on any church.. whatever they do is up to them. I have a right to leave.. as I did YEARS ago.. and never turned back. This need to take what you hold dear and turn it so that it translates into forcing else to do something.. simply does not appeal to me. Likewise, I did not go to my former church and try turn anyone against it.

Constitutionally speaking.. there must be government compulsion and an aggreived party as a result of that compulsion.. to be a violation.. and does not apply.

I did the best I could with it..

[ConsAreLiars]

46. Here are the talking points from the site you deny seeing

From http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0108gc_book_ban.asp
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Here’s what you can do right now

Because we don’t know what the Park Service will eventually decide, concerned taxpayers can write Ms. Frances Mainella, Director of the National Park Service in Washington, with their opinion. Here are some suggested ‘bullet points’ to help you compose a polite, respectful yet firm email (or fax) to Director Mainella … today (writing a letter may be too late at this point):

* Ask: Why shouldn't’t Canyon visitors be allowed the choice to read this book and then decide for themselves which view of the Canyon’s formation is correct?
* Nobody is forcing people to read the book and to accept its viewpoint—it’s only on a shelf in a bookstore.
* Please don’t move the book to an ‘inspirational’ section—it presents the serious scientific viewpoint of many scientists.
* Ask: Why is a book—just sitting in a bookstore—so threatening?
* I don’t want our tax-supported park system to give in to censorship.
* Many of the essays in the book are written by scientists with doctorate degrees who have also conducted serious research at the Canyon.
* Ask: Even many evolutionists believe that much of the Canyon was formed by a lot of water over a short period of time—so why the effort to silence the book’s view?

Use 2 or 3 points above and then conclude with a comment like: ‘Please don’t allow censorship and book banning to occur.’ Include your full name and address.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

See any similarity between your apologisms (and those of "columbia")? I sure do. Chance? Great minds think alike? Same agenda? And, since you seem to have missed it, the discussion is not about the river guide's spiel or the film, but the distribution of a cult manifesto in the Park bookstore.

[Mick Knox]

48. hehe

yes .. me and columbia secretly conspired together by personnal message to afront agnostics with the great noah's ark grand canyon theory. .

I still havent looked at that site aside from only briefly after you linked.. I dont need some site to form my view on this matter.. hell i dont even care what they think.. i wouldnt protest this matter one way or the other aside from engaging this mb conversation for my own amusement.

[Columbia]

52. Indeed, conspiracies abound

You caught us bumbler! You outsmarted us. We are secretly conspiring together to upseat the unholy secularism that pervades our society through the "Grand Canyon: A Different View" which is the cornerstone for what will be the New World Order, but we're going to call it... "New Canyon Order." Pretty catchy, huh?

/sarcasm

OR...

We advocate the upholding of all freedoms, not just the ones we agree with. Is that so hard to believe?

[ConsAreLiars]

54. the "freedom" you advocate here, in this thread,

is the freedom of fundie nut cases to have their cult dogma promoted by the National Park Service. Do you advocate in favor of the Iraqis right to off the invaders? I don't think so. Do you advocate for the freedom of priests to choose minors as their sex partners? Maybe, although I haven't seen anything to suggest this. I doubt very much that you are an advocate for "all freedoms" as you claim. But maybe you are a true anarcho-nihilist solipsist, and I am wrong in questioning your claim to "advocate the upholding of all freedoms, not just the ones we agree with."

But in my view, this is just another bogus diversion, like the "censorship" argument which mirrored the advocacy guidelines in that "answersfromgenesis" site - the site which actually provided much of the material in the book being discussed. Your "argument" is a poor paraphrase of the first two talking points: "* Ask: Why shouldn't Canyon visitors be allowed the choice to read this book and then decide for themselves which view of the Canyon’s formation is correct? * Nobody is forcing people to read the book and to accept its viewpoint—it’s only on a shelf in a bookstore."

Not to stray too far, who do prefer = Chimpy or The Big Dawg?

[Columbia]

56. A world of difference between true freedom and those strawmans you list

The freedom I speak of is the freedom to do as you please, say what you want, practice what religion you want or lack thereof, etc. without infringing on the freedoms of others.

You may not like fundamentalist religion and I'm not a big fan either, but silencing them is a solution that is worse than the problem. Protecting speech is not a "bogus diversion" as you say. For example, I strongly disagree with your views in this thread, but I will defend your right to voice them. As a Progressive, you should do the same to those you don't agree with either.

Sort of off-topic, but do you honestly believe that zwade and I have been here lying in wait and posting hundreds of messages and getting ready to spring into action when a thread magically appears about the Grand Canyon? You're just kidding right? I hope so anyway..

[ConsAreLiars]

58. This is not about "free speech"

or silencing cults. This is about using gov't resources to promote their delusions, something you endorse and I do not.

As for the "lying in wait" paragraph, those are your words, not mine. For the record, I do not "believe that zwade and have been here lying in wait and posting hundreds of messages and getting ready to spring into action when a thread magically appears about the Grand Canyon." I do not believe that your objectives have anything to do with this specific thread.

[Columbia]

59. Negative

"This is about using gov't resources to promote their delusions, something you endorse and I do not."

First of all, this book is being sold, not given away or being promoted as NPS doctrine - if anything the gov't is profiting from the sales. Secondly, don't come crying to us when someone else starts calling your ideas delusional and seeks to withhold them from public view.

"I do not believe that your objectives have anything to do with this specific thread."

Is that right? What do you think our objectives are then?

[DrWeird]

62. It's about standards.

It's like selling a book that says the Grand Canyon is thirty miles deep, 5 inches wide, and located in Minnesota. It's patently wrong and has no business in that book store.

"First of all, this book is being sold, not given away or being promoted as NPS doctrine - if anything the gov't is profiting from the sales."

Well then shit. Let's set up Grand Canyon casinos, brothels, strip clubs, and use that big hole to dump industrial waste. If it makes money, what's the harm?



"Secondly, don't come crying to us when someone else starts calling your ideas delusional and seeks to withhold them from public view."

Nobody's withholding anything from public view, it's just having educational standards. Like I said, selling creationist propaganda at the Grand Canyon is like the Holocaust Museum selling books stating that the holocaust didn't exist.

[Columbia]

66. I've had enough strawmans for the night

Thank you very much. Good night.

[DrWeird]

67. Explain.

Seems a particularly accurate comparison to me.

The Grand Canyon was formed slowly over millions of years of erosion, that's a scientific fact. Some whackos dispute it.

The holocaust killed 12 million people and it is a historic fact. Yet some whackos dispute it.

What's the big difference?

[ConsAreLiars]

63. You keep talking about "us" and "our objectives"

Why don't you tell me what you mean? When I talk about "us" I mean democrats or progressives or working folks or something more specific. When you say "us" who do you mean? When you threaten that I/we should not "come crying to us when someone else starts calling your ideas delusional and seeks to withhold them from public view," who is the "us" that you reference in that statement? It certainly does not sound like the "us" that I use. Sounds a lot more like "them" to me, although they may well be "us" to you and your pals.

[Columbia]

65. Umkay...

I meant myself and zwade, who you've subtley accused of being co-conspirators in something - what exactly, I have no idea what your imagination can bring... :eyes:

[SoCalDem]

60. What the fundies miss is this...

We are no longer the "wonder bread-homogenized milk" America that we were in the 50's.. America back then WAS a predominantly WASP nation, with a few Catholics sprinkled in for extra zest...and a few jewish people.. WE ARE NOT THAT ANY MORE..

Secularism is the ONLY way to maintain equality and civility.. The "my god can (and should) kick your god's ass" mentality that we are seeing firsthand around the world , has NO PLACE in the USA..

Freedom to practice YOUR religion is WONDERFUL and I APPLAUD it.. BUT, what if YOUR religion is NOT the same one that I practice?? Because you have YOUR stooge sitting in the highest seat of government, should I have to just swallow your church's dogma??


THAT is why a secular approach is always best..

Gather in your synagogues/mosques/chapels/cathedrals/churches/temples, etc..Handle snakes, speak in tongues, roll around on the floor,sit at seder, take communion, drink the wine,pray in any language, to any god...Kneel til your knees bleed.. Cover your head..don't cut your hair..eschew modern conveniences..whatever.. Just do it in the private sector..

This is especially troubling for me too.. The group that claims to be for "privatization" on a massive scale, seems to miss the point entirely when it comes to things that THEY love to evangelize. Religion should be PRIVATE.. Science is PUBLIC...

To a lot of us, there are two worlds.. The one we live in every day with other people and the one that we live in with our family and friends..Most people know automatically how not to mix the two, but some people cannot seem to make the distinction..

If I meet you at church, I can know immediately that we have a common bond in our beliefs, but with so many different faiths and the fact that we have a culturally diverse nation now, why should ANYONE just assume that the rest of the place is just waiting to hear YOUR version of how the world began, or how to live a "moral" life..

In other words.. Render unto Caesar..etc..etc.. and keep your beliefs to yourself, unless we ask to hear them :) I promise not to tell you mine, unless you ask :)

Common ground must be reached in the workplace and in school, and the commonly accepted facts are what should be taught to every child.. If your family is science-phobic, then please reinforce your faith to your children..Or..school them privately or at religious school..(don't start with the "I pay taxes for public schools" crap.. I pay lots of taxes to pay for things that I never use..like a tax exclusion for YOUR church which I will never attend)..

ah well. I have wandered.. but you get my drift :)

[Columbia]

64. The term is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion

The 1st Amendment as written: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

No one is asking you to convert to any form of religion, however, enforcing secularist views onto others by restricting sales of books with theories you disagree with is just as bad as forcing another's religious beliefs onto you.

I'm done for the night, if this thread is around in the morning, I may stop by if there are any compelling arguments left.

[cprise]

95. Does the sale of Noah Of The Canyon fulfill a public service???

I know you're American, but I think you may remember public service.

I could see how conveying a sentimental value in a book might constitute a public service. But if the contents are presented as fact and are essentially misleading, then there's no other function left except supporting (in this case) fundamentalist religion and by extension obstruction of understanding.

It's shameful that DUers would be using laissez faire to give fundamentalist dogma a pass.

[roguevalley]

93. So anyone who wants to promote anything is okay? BS. This is not a

good use of my tax dollars and its an EMBARRASSMENT!
Good god. How dumb do you really want our nation to
become?

[mike1963]

21. I will fight censorship til they pry that book from my cold dead hand, BUT

the GOVERNMENT has no business allowing or permitting crap that is antithetical to essentially universally accepted science to be sold under its auspices. I do not give a rat's ass if you think the world was 'created' 6000 years ago. What I will NOT accept is that sort of bullshit being offered as even an 'alternative' to it with any implied
support.

[Columbia]

32. But what you are advocating is exactly censorship

Protection of freedom of ideas and speech is for the minority. You think it would be easy to ban something that the majority believes in? Of course not. The essence of freedom of speech is that it protects ALL speech, even those we consider to be vulgar, hateful, or illogical. By protecting the minority (no matter how much you disagree with them), you protect your own right to free speech when the time comes that you hold a fringe belief.

If the book sells and is about the Grand Canyon, leave it be.

[Lars39]

22. But that's just it, it is the bookstore at the Grand Canyon.

People don't go in there looking for the Kama Sutra or a book about Noah's Ark. They are looking for souveniers for their trip or more detailed explanations on what they are seeing or the history of the area they are looking at. This isn't about banning books. This is about making sure that the merchandise in the store "fits" the Grand Canyon. Trying to pass off a book about the biblical flood as a historically and scientifically text about the Grand Canyon is revisionist history and bogus science.

[Mick Knox]

24. By your own words

They are looking for souveniers for their trip or more detailed explanations on what they are seeing or the history of the area they are looking at.

WHo are you to decide what they consider a souvenier? Or indeed what fits the Grand Canyon? Maybe that book is right! Maybe its bs.. like i think... you dont know... and you dont know nor can you say what people may want as their own souvenier from a place as spectecular and awe inspiring as the grand canyon. You are imposing yourself on them.

[Lars39]

27. I'd like to get a Faberge egg for a buck there, but what does

that have to do with the Grand Canyon?

[Mick Knox]

30. I dont know... I dont think it has anything to do with it.. nt

[SoCalDem]

34. Methinks you have bought their load o crap..

This is the twisted perverted way the fundies "frame their argument".. They are in favor of the most pernicious "censorship", but are so willing to holler CENSORSHIP, when their fairy tales are not given the same weight as true scientific evidence.

They write a fable, get their comrades to "approve it", get some right wing publisher to crank out a bunch of copies, distribute it to all the promise-keepers and freep-a-thons, and voila' they have a "best seller".. The next step is to beseech their fellow fundies in appointed positions to our government,. and their "work" is somehow legitmized..

This is precisely how this crap has oozed into the public school curriculum..


Look away..or they shall soon have grabbed your intellect and common sense

[Mick Knox]

37. It doesnt hurt you... it may

satisfy some need to impose your views on others.. simlar to the way the fundies doo. especially since it doesnt affect you in anyway shape or form.

If the Gov required you to buy this book.. you would have every right to be upset. If they started teaching in schools.. same thing. It would violate the constitution. They are not doing that. There is no compulsion here and there is no violation.

[Kool Kitty]

61. If the Government is printing this book,

are they using our tax dollars to do it? I object to that. I don't want my taxes to go to printing fundie pap. (I don't want them to go to building nuclear weapons either, so I guess the answer is obvious.)

[ConsAreLiars]

69. It is not a matter of printing it

(They don't.) It is a question of using gov't resources to display and distribute cult dogma in the guise of science rather than using the shelf space for something that is not simple-minded advocacy for one peculiar religious sect.

(edit: dropped word)

[Kool Kitty]

76. Well, you know what?

I'm against that, too. I don't like anything about this. I'm very nervous about everything having to have a religious counterpart. I happen to like the firewall between church and state. I'm not a Christian, but I don't have a problem with religion. I just don't want it in my face everywhere.

[never cry wolf]

17. I am not an historian

But I know that in the dark ages the only people allowed to learn to read or write were the royalty and clergy. The common folk were purposly left ignorant, they were taught the bible stories through the architecture of the cathedrals and the art and how it was explained by the clergy.

I SWEAR, every damn thing this admin does is trying to push the general population back into those times. Those lovely times when the rulers only had to say God says so and the sheep know no better and follow dutifully. They WANT an ignorant, obeyant populace that acts upon faith rather than logic, it is SO obvious to me.

They may or may not really believe in evolution, but they sure as HELL are trying to put an end the evolution of our species.

:nuke:

on edit: shud be "an" historian.

[MisterP]

38. I think it was more of a matter of couldn't than wouldn't

and most of the kings were illiterate, if I recall

[ironflange]

23. The real way the Canyon was formed?

A Scotsman dropped a quarter down a gopher hole.

I know this is probably going to get removed, but I couldn't stop myself.

:evilgrin:

[SoCalDem]

40. hehehehee I just "got it "

you scamp :)

[mitchum]

25. WTF???!!!

[corporatewhore]

28. this reminds me of the time my fundie "science teacher"

made the zoo lady go crazy it was like capt kirk talking to a computer well to end our feild trip the "teacher" hinted that the lady would burn in hell

[ComerPerro]

35. Exactly, and there are no unicorns or dionsaurs

because Noah didn't bring them on the ark.

[Gemini Cat]

47. What a bunch of thunderous horse-shite!

We are spinning back to the dark-ages!

:dem:

[jmatthan]

49. A flood cannot cause a canyon

A canyon is caused by erosion and not by submersion!!

Nothing to do with anthropology, biblical texts, etc.

Jacob Matthan
http://www.findians.com/educated.html
Oulu., Finland

[Must_B_Free]

50. A magic flood can

and true believers do not question logical fallacies, they reinforce them.

[ironflange]

51. I'm visiting the Grand Canyon this summer

I sure hope I don't get caught in any magic floods! :scared:

[DrWeird]

53. That's like the Holocaust Museum...

selling a book that denies the holocaust happened.

[SoCalDem]

55. Christian Examiner weighs in

http://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Feb04/Art_Feb04_07.html



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secular scientists seek ban on Grand Canyon book

By Lori Arnold

CHRISTIAN EXAMINER

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Duane Gish makes no bones about his belief in creationism. In fact, he believes his research in fossils is, well, dying proof that the Genesis account is true.Gish, whose scientific work with Institute for Creation Research, Santee, Calif., has spanned more than three decades, is one of several noted scientists whose research is included in “Grand Canyon: A Different View,” a new book by longtime Colorado River tour guide Tom Vail.

...snip....

In December, the presidents of seven science organizations signed a letter to the park’s superintendent asking that the book be pulled because of its religious content. The National Parks Service is reviewing the book and at least one media outlet has reported that officials have determined the book will be banned because its theories fall outside of accepted science. Another option being discussed is moving the book to the store’s inspirational section.


Polar opinions
Secular scientists—who believe the Grand Canyon was carved over millions of years by slow erosion caused by the Colorado River—take umbrage with creationists, who believe it was created by a lot of water over a short period of time. The latter theory matches the Old Testament account of Noah’s ark, something secularists believe is contrary to science.“The Grand Canyon was formed millions of years ago,” William Ausich, president of the Paleontological Society told Religion News Service. “It is the job of the national Park Service to present the best scientific information possible to the public, and the book is complete pseudoscience.”

....snip....

I hope this controversy will lead many more people, including Grand Canyon visitors, to read its alternative, scientific viewpoint.”Gish said he believes the publicity surrounding the controversy will foster public interest and discussion on the creation view.“It will certainly draw attention to the fact that there are creationists who have their own view,” said Gish, whose training also includes scientific research at Cornell Medical College, University of California, Berkley and the Upjohn Company.
....snip

Regardless the outcome, Gish said he’s confident that the biblically supported view will receive increased exposure as creation scientists travel the country participating in lectures and debates.“We have these creationist organizations which are conducting seminars and debates,” he said. “We are getting the message out, which before was not getting out. We are reaching people now that we weren’t reaching before.”Among them are high school and college students, many of whom Gish said are eager to hear the evidence.“Most students are glad to know there is evidence to show there is a destiny for them beyond a pile of dust,” he said. “We’re challenging the dogma. That’s what we have to do.”


Published by Keener Communications Group, February 2004

[depakid]

57. The war on science continues....

“Most students are glad to know there is evidence to show there is a destiny for them beyond a pile of dust....”

These people wouldn't know evidence if it jumped up and bit them on the ass. What they are all about is distortion of fact to suit their closed minded opinions. They fear science because it's based on logic and observation- all of which are fatal to their so called "theories."

[SoCalDem]

71. This is the "seed" group for "Faithbased National Parks"

from google.. gee they even have radio stations.. and they claim that they "cannot get their message out"..hmmmm

---

Institute for Creation Research - ICR
The Institute for Creation Research is a world leader in the creation science
movement. ... Welcome to the Institute for Creation Research ( ICR ). ...
Description: Searchable site offers scientific research papers, archives of two newsletters -- Acts and Facts,...
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > ... > Origins and Creation
www.icr.org/ - 27k - Feb 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

ICR RADIO
... Copyright 2004 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved. 10946 Woodside
Ave. North Santee, CA 92071 Voice: [phone] Fax: [phone]. ...
www.icr.org/radio/ - 30k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.icr.org >

Reference: Institute for Creation Research
Institute for Creation Research. From the ICR web-site: "The Institute
for Creation Research (ICR) is a Christ focused creation ministry ...
www.meta-library.net/other/icr-body.html - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

A Visit to the Institute of Creation Research
home1.gif (2214 bytes). A Visit to the Institute of Creation Research's
"Museum of Creation and Earth History" Karen Bartelt. ...
home.austarnet.com.au/stear/avisittoicr.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages

Graduate School of the Institute for Creation Research
... CLICK ON THE FLASH INTRO LINK. ENTER SITE AND SKIP THE INTRO. © Copyright
2002 Institute for Creation Research. All rights reserved.
www.icr.edu/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

The Center for Scientific Creation: Home of the Hydroplate Theory
", ""] EndHiddenExpansion-->.
Description: An online edition of Dr. Walt Brown's book: In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and...
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > ... > Books
www.creationscience.com/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

ICR Adventures - The Institute for Creation Research's kids domain ...
... Click Here! This web site is devoted to the children's ministry of the Institute
for Creation Research. © Copyright 2000 Institute for Creation Research. ...
www.icradventures.org/ - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

Institute for Creation Research Priesthood's Religious Oath
Institute for Creation Research Priesthood's. Religious Oath. Fri 21
Nov 97 20:23. Alec Grynspan: The most prominent creationists such ...
www.skeptictank.org/cremeth.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

Institute for Creation Research
... Dr. John Morris - President of Institute For Creation Research. Greg Hofler
- College Student (Below). ... President Institute for Creation Research. JDM:mt. ...
www.layevangelism.com/layevang/icr.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Institute for Creation Research Radio Achieves
The link below will take you to Institute for Creation Research Radio
Broadcast Achieves.]. Click below to go to ICR Radio Achieves.
www.blc-morris-il.org/IRCMain.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

[SoCalDem]

74. Gish..the author and some of his other "ideas"

Grand Canyon Catastrophe by American Portrait Films and Gish ...
... Check Out. Grand Canyon Catastrophe. ... Video, more information. Also from
American Portrait Films or Gish, Duane T. or Keziah. Retail Price ...
www.parable.com/parable/item_089051240X.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Grand Canyon Catastrophe by American Portrait Films and Gish ...
... Grand Canyon Catastrophe. ... Video, more information. Also from American
Portrait Films or Gish, Duane T. or Keziah. Retail Price: $19.99. ...
www.parable.com/LivingTheSolution/item_089051240X.htm - 37k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.parable.com >

Grand Canyon Catastrophe by American Portrait Films and Gish ...
... Privacy Policy. Grand Canyon Catastrophe. ... Video, more information. Also
from American Portrait Films or Gish, Duane T. or Keziah. Retail ...
shop.cwfa.org/cwfa/item_089051240X.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

Duane T. Gish (biographical info) -Creation SuperLibrary
... Duane T. Gish: Creationist. ... Resources featuring this author appear in the following
material that can be purchased on-line: Grand Canyon Catastrophe (video). ...
www.christiananswers.net/creation/people/gish-dt.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

"Grand Canyon Catastrophe" / a review from Christian Spotlight on ...
... Featuring: Dr. John Morris, Dr. Duane Gish, Dr. Steven Austin and Dr. Andrew Snelling ... Get
a view of the Grand Canyon that its visitors are not allowed to ...
www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/ 2002/grandcanyoncatastrophe.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.christiananswers.net >

The Grand Canyon and the Age of the Earth
... of the question, then move on to geology, the flood, and the Grand Canyon. ... Well-known
young-earth creationists Henry Morris, Duane Gish, and Steve Austin, from ...
www.origins.org/articles/bohlinray_grandcanyon.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Review of Creationist Grand Canyon Book
... Most YEC authors writing about paleontology, such as Gish (whose 1995 paleontological ... asserts
that the fossils in the strata of the Grand Canyon occur " ...in ...
www.badgeology.com/grandcanyon/elders-review-gcdv.htm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Grand Canyon Tour Guide - www.grandcanyontourguide.com
... Photo by Tim Gish Ben Nez performs for guests at the Grand Hotel’s
Canyon Star Restaurant in Tusayan. CLICK PHOTO TO ENLARGE. For ...
www.grandcanyontourguide.com/gc/15.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

More Books On Creation Science/Evolution
... Austin 1994) AUSTIN, Steven A. 1994 Grand Canyon: Monument to ... (Gish 1972) GISH, Duane
T. 1972 Speculations and Experiments Related to Theories on the Origin of ...
emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/refbooks.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Creation Research Society Online Store: Grand Canyon Catastrophe ...
... Dam Theory" that ancient lakes drained catastrophically through the Grand Canyon.
Featured in this video are Drs. John Morris, Duane Gish, Steven Austin, and ...
www.creationresearch.org/ Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=V-GRA1&Category_Code=C2-V... - 19k - Feb 26, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

[Hammie]

68. That is the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Everyone knows that it was made by Paul Bunyans axe.

[SoCalDem]

70. Nooooooooo.. YOU have it wrong

It's where Jesus' dinosaurs slept.. It used to be a cave, but the really tall ones forgot to duck and the roof fell in :evilgrin:

[jsw_81]

72. The demons stir...the candle flickers...

Creationists obviously have the right to publish their silly books, but I don't think a government bookstore should be selling such nonsense unless it's shelved in the "myth and fantasy" section.

[Chicago Democrat]

77. Who else thinks Christianity is Dangerous?

Jesus was cool. He said some smart things.

But Modern Day Christians are stupid and scarey! They need to be challenged loudly! They lie about everything, especially Jesus, about whom they know nothing. Christians will kill you sometimes just for disbelieving their lies.

Christians need to be watched as closely as Al Queada because they are delusional fanatics who are actually looking forward to the end of the world.

Im gonna use this for a topic

[randr]

79. some religious beliefs border of mental illness

[Chicago Democrat]

82. I started this topic but It got locked....

I guess it was inflammitory, but thank you DU for letting me vent! All of the Christian propagnda from the Passion is making me ill!

[SoCalDem]

84. There are lots of christians here at DU and they get understandably

upset at the usage of the word "Christian" when it's used in a derogatory way.. The term that fits the target of our wrath is fundamentalist... of any faith.. They are all pretty much the same..Christian,Mormon,Muslim, you name it :(

[Chicago Democrat]

87. Im sorry If I offended anyone.

I only meant fanatical, fundamentalist, Chistians who distort and mislead and totally change the original message, which I find hard to find amid 2000 years of distortion.

[SoCalDem]

88. I didn't mean to criticize.. only to let you know

since you are still kind of new here.. Tension is high right now what with the "priest thing" and the gay marriage stuff and the Passion stuff..

I didn't want you to get jumped on and not know why :)

[neebob]

78. I wish someone would write a book to explain how

Noah fit two of every kind of animal into this boat that was so many cubits long by so many cubits wide by so many cubits high ...

and how he and his family were able to get all these animals there from all over the world in the first place ...

and how they fit enough food for all these people and animals for how many months into the boat on top of all the animals ...

and why the some of the animals were willing to eat grass or whatever instead of the other animals in the boat ...

and what they did with all the dung!

[bobbyboucher]

80. The fundies are at it again.

Nice catch, bumbler, they sure do look like they are sticking to the talking points don't they? Fuckin' pathetic it is. Talk about contorting the freedom of religion thing into a pretzel to fit their fundie agenda.

KEEP YOUR RIDICULOUS FABLES OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT RUN BOOKSTORES!

[ConsAreLiars]

90. When posters begin tossing out red herrings

and trying to change the subject you can be sure they are following some script. Usually it is not hard to find the source. In this case I found defenses of the use of National Park Service bookstores to promote the Bornigan cult theology at Free Republic and WorldNet, and their sources (which I quoted in post #46) at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0108gc_book_ban.asp

The talking points on this issue were a minor variation on the general guidelines for defending the use of public money and resources to promote (one very narrow) religious ideology. Fortunately, they are not very imaginative, so if you do a search on the more specific subject matter (like a book title) and the more generic meme (like "censorship") you can usually find the script they follow. This usually helps prepare you for the next red herring that will be tossed into the debate ("Nobody is forced to read it" and such).

[Dr Fate]

81. I thought it was Paul Bunyan & Babe's plow???

I like that story better.

[Mairead]

83. I've idly wondered occasionally whether the creationists try to account

for the real, honest-to-no-kidding catastrophic flood that changed the (Eurasian neolithic) world 7K years ago, and, if so, how.

[RichardRay]

85. I have more faith in park visitors than most here.

Over the years I've been in the Grand Canyon many times as a river guide. Probably 300 people of many backgrounds have travelled down the river with me. I can also vouch that not one of the folks I guided would be more than somewhat amused by reading a book claiming the creationist perspective.

So, while I think it's a pretty dumb place to put a very dumb book, it doesn't bother me very much. If you want to get concerned about the Grand Canyon there are way more important things you could choose.

[Pobeka]

86. I say a bunch of devil worshipers created the Grand Canyon.

You see, I'm writing a book about it right now. It has 10,000 words, and I talked with about 30 leading devil worshipers. These are the criteria that make it a very credible book.

I demand that my book be placed on the shelf too.

Anything else is censorship...

[Deja Q]

89. And Paul Bunyan's footprints are Minnesota's lakes...

:eyes:

What a bunch of fairytales...

[Nashvilliberal]

91. Two helicopters and a boat...

I'm sure everybody's heard that one...the short version: A guy climbs onto his rooftop during a flood. Rescuers offer help three different times (hence this post's title), but the stranded fellow declines, saying each time "God will save me." Of course, the fellow drowns, and upon meeting God in heaven asks "Why did you let me drown?" "My son," God says "I sent two helicopters and a boat. What more did you want?"

In this case, I think God will say to the literal Fundamentalists "I gave you a magnificent brain. Why didn't you use it?"

[Mick Knox]

92. LOL .. great story ...I think there is much profound truth in that .. nt