Mel Gibson movie may encourage Us-Against-Them mindset.

[Eric J in MN]

The best article of the many I've read about "The Passion" is in the blog of a freelance journalist named David Neiwert. The blog is called Orcinus.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2004_02_22_dneiwert_archive.html#107786469176384564
Mr. Neiwert writes that the violence in the movie is much greater than in the Gospels. Mel Gibson's purpose, he suggests, is to get people to believe in a dichotomy of

US- the religous, who are trying to live up to an impossible standard of sinlessness to compensate for the violence.

and

THEM- the secular, those who don't care and are therefore complicit in the violence.

[boobooday]

1. It's amazing

Someone told me the other day that I should see the movie because it's "realistic." And it's important to see how Jesus suffered.

Is there something wrong with a man who says he worships Jesus, and then makes a two hour movie that is nothing but torturing the very man he purports to hold above all others?

??????

The bloody, violent gospel according to Mel.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Eric J in MN]

2. On MSNBC a few nights ago, they had interviews with people

On MSNBC a few nights ago, they had interviews with people who left the theater saying, "Now I know what Christ experienced."

I was amazed. It's a movie based on the imagination of Mel Gibson and an anti-semitic 19th century German nun.

It's not 2000-year old documentary-footage, but that is how one person-after-another interviewed by MSNBC took it.

[Sterling]

5. not the brightest bunch of folf going to see that flick.

I bet Jesus would not go. What do you think? WWJD?

[wryter2000]

3. Wow

That's pretty insightful. And pretty scary.

Thanks.

[Eric J in MN]

6. I've read other good articles on the movie, but that one

I've read other good articles on the movie, but that one (in my first post of this thread) was the most comprehensive and the deepest.

[Maat]

4. Great link!

[magnolia]

7. I saw the movie today....

...and I thought the torture was excessive...but it is a movie...not a documentary. In reference to your title..."us against them"...although I'm not a Christian I'm sick of the right wing thinking that they own the flag, patriotism and Jesus. If you can overlook the over-dramatizing and the "who killed Jesus" (who cares!)...the movie clearly showed a Jesus who was all about love, tolerance and forgiveness...things the right wing know NOTHING about. If any group has a right to lay claim to Jesus as a role model...it's liberal democrats!

[Must_B_Free]

14. clearly showed a Jesus who was all about love, tolerance and forgiveness

if this is true that the movie showed this, i may learn to accept it. I wish to hear more about this aspect because it sounded like a 2 hour torture session to me... I didn't see it and won;t see it if this is the case.

How does it compare to Jesus Christ Superstar

[jean]

8. Gibson and his movie are a big turnoff for me - but what if

instead of being a manic, violence-monger, he's trying to trigger anti-semitism in order to blast the Left Behind extremists out of their "we love Israel" mindset? (sounds too complex for old Mel maybe)

I am not well informed about the Left Behinders, but recently read they want to keep Israel strong and in place because that fits with their end of times bible scenario.

[deakonblues2k]

9. So what you're saying is that...

If you're a democrat left right or centrist then you can't profess to be a Christian and believe that Jesus lived, suffered, and took our place on a cross to save us and our soul?

When I saw the film last night I did not see a preview that indicated that this film is being brought to you by your local GOP candidate. I didn't hear a plug for president Bush or John Kerry for that matter.

The fact that a succesfull actor sunk his own money into making a film which then had to be picked up by a second hand distributor because none of the big studios would touch it had some type of political motive in doing so...

The tinfoilers are absolutly present and accounted for here...

I am a Christian, the life of Christ has been independently verified by both Religious and Non-Religious sources. The process of crucifixion has also been well documented. Just for those who are not aware, the root of the word EXCRUCIATING come from ...can you guess?

I am an not a theologian, however; I have several years of religous study both formal and informal under my belt. I choose to accept the bible (once again, I didn't see any political pundit's name scribbled on the inside of MY bible) as factual. I believe with my whole heart and mind that Jesus was God, lived a sinless life, and paid the ultimate price of the most horrible death than mankind and satan could imagine on a terrible cross on a hill in Jerusalem.

I don't believe that the brutality was understated. However I will tell you this. That from many I have heard speak on the subject, and many I have spoken with... Those of us who believe focus not on the brutality of others, but the unfathomable Love of God for his sinful creation. Those of you who do not believe focus on the brutality of men on one another. But you miss the point...

Christ is perfect, his love for each and everyone of us is perfect, those of us who believe in Christ believe in his Love and that we are to Love one another...(thus it is a sin too be anti-anything).

I would suggest that before you pass along hearsay and conjecture about what this movie means in the greater scheme of life, or for whatever reason...politics. I suggest you see it with an open heart, if not with an open heart, an open mind.

If you fear a story of love, forgiveness, and redemption, what point is there in having a discussion of politics if you turn your back on the tenents of what is required for us all to live together in a world without utter destruction?

There is nothing political about Christianity...perhaps RELIGION, but not Christianity.

[Journeyman]

12. Welcome, deakonblues2k. . .

well said.

[Eric J in MN]

15. Many people were crucified by the Romans.

Many people were crucified by the Romans.

Some of them may have had more painful deaths than Jesus.

Some modern people who die from cancer may have more painful deaths.

[Mick Knox]

10. This guy doesnt know what he's talking about

I've heard, and Mel has admitted he took artistic license in order .. I would guess.. yet another type of shock and awe ?..

anyway

From this guys review:

-- It continues throughout. Violence is committed upon Jesus in nearly every scene, with any number of beatings for which there is no scriptural account. The Gospels, for instance, only mention that Jesus is beaten at the end of his ordeal before the high priests; but Gibson has him beaten throughout.

The beatings and mockings did indeed continue from the time he is arrested until the time he is dead then speered .. even mocking Mary....

-- At every possible point, Gibson ratchets up the level of violence to nearly pornographic levels. When Jesus is flogged by the Romans, they don't merely whip him with the traditional lash. They get out torture instruments that are designed to dig in and gouge out chunks of flesh, which they proceed to do. One particularly memorable shot shows the meat flying out of his ribs. Later we are treated to a view of the exposed rib bones and surrounding meat. Again, there is simply no Scriptural basis for any of this, nor really any sound historical basis for it either.

This is a bold faced lie. The bible does not say he is flogged. It does not say he was whipped.. It says he is scourged. This is a version of scourging...
http://www.bible-history.com/past/flagrum.html
(hit stop after it loads.. it has lame music)

written well before mel's movie... you can get any number of links on Roman scourging.. it was not just a few whips with a lash.

-- He depicts Pontius Pilate as vaguely sympathetic, a waffler who is ultimately mere putty in the hands of the Jewish priests. In reality, Pilate was ruthless, a notorious suppressor of uprisings who never flinched at inflicting "Roman mercy." In a more common reading of the Gospels, though, it is likely that his motives all along were cynical manipulation.

If you are going to argue biblical account.. then you should follow the biblical account..stick with it.. instead of inventing your own version.. at best he was indifferent... as it was passover .. he per the custom.. would release one.. He offered several times to release Jesus... including after the scourging.. he said MANY TIMES .. "I find no fault in him" this is very clear in the scripture..

-- The film places the scourging of Jesus (to which we are given the full 20-minute treatment, a la Braveheart,) after his first appearance before Pilate, but before he has been condemned to be crucified. This is not the sequence given in any of the four Gospels.

After the scourging.. Pilate did indeed offer to release him. After the scourging.. as BEFORE the scourging.. Pilate said "I find no fault in him".. and tried to release him.. yet again John 19 et al.. and the 3 books as well I believe.. but that one for sure

If your an agnostic.. its No Prob... stick with historical record or whatever.. simply label it a myth and move on.. but to bold faced lie about what is in the scripture .. is lame... when its pretty friggin easy to simply pick up the book and read .. .. Go to Mat 26 Mark 15 Luke 23 and John 18..

This guy is full of crap and certainly no theologean.. but most likely he is right on some points where Mel took artistic license... I guess I am equally guilty as I am commenting without seeing the movie... but lies he told as I listed above can be easily researched... also Mel is catholic, I am not.. I dont know their version..

[JohnOneillsMemory]

11. "Birth of a Nation for the 21st century". great article! read his links on

'authoritarianism' and brainwashing techniques. scary.
I'm putting my own synopsis of DOMINIONISM, turning the US into a fascist cult thru Culture Wars all over du so here it comes again:

'THE CHOSEN FEW' IS BEING MORPHED INTO 'THE MASTER RACE'
THE SAME WAY 'GET OSAMA' WAS MORPHED INTO 'GET SADDAM'! GET IT?

We are living in the closing minutes of a culture war that the American Taliban, called Dominionists, are winning.
The US Constitution (as people power) is being gutted and replaced with the Bible (as king power.)

This is the basic model of this religion-fueled fascism:
Supreme dictators smiting evil-doers wrathfully with no legal restraints. Sound familar?

The inflammation of the old anti-semitic, anti-homosexual, anti-abortion, and anti-porn 'passions' is cover for a very real and documented campaign to make this country into a Hitlerian theocracy fueled by fundamentalist religious passions called 'Dominionism.'

'Might Makes Right' is WINNING over 'The Rule of Law.'
We are experiencing the return of Eugenics (elimination of the 'weak') in our government's policies that looks very much like the old systems of feudalism, slavery and holocaust.
Have you noticed the body-count in the last three years with no end in sight?


Georgie's brain is much worse than you think and he's being used for terrible purposes. Here's a British clinical psychologist's researched analysis of the boy king. He interviewed Georgie's family, friends and such and determined that he was abused as a child and developed an 'authoritarian personality,' the root of fascism! Read it and weep for him and us.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
(So George, how do you feel about your mom and dad?)-CLICK

And this personality is being exploited to further the creation of a Hitlerian Theocracy called ‘Dominionism’, which has been going on in this country for the last thirty years. Read it and wonder what the hell we're in for next now that Eugenics is domestic policy and Imperialism is foreign policy.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(God Bless America, The Constitution is Dead)-CLICK

If you'd like to read the full speech of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia back in the dark ages of January 2002 when he said that 'democracy interferes with the Divine Right of Kings and he's doing something about it,' read this and wonder what century we're living in and just what that Constitution was for, anyway.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm
(God's Justice and Ours)-CLICK

How can they get away with it when everyone seems to be pissed off at Georgie and we're supposed to be able to vote the bastard out of our White House? By fixing the electronic voting machines for 'the House.' Read this and decide which country to escape to this fall when Georgie is reinstalled like a 'Manchurian Candidate' to finish the job he was sent to do-eliminate democracy, create a police state, and conquer the world.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
(Diebold, Electonic Voting, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)-CLICK

LATE BREAKING NEWS-FEB. 26 2004
Right now the Dominionists are introducing legislation to replace 'The People' as the authority in our democracy’s Constitution with ‘God’ in a bill called ‘The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004,’ exactly the opposite of what it really is. The legalities of the Christian Theocracy are being used to destroy our laws as if by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

This is not a test! It is absolutely real and happening right now while the media are busy covering gay marriage and Mel Gibson’s bloody crucifixion porn film, ‘The Passion of the Christ.’

“…on February 11 , 2004 Dominionist leaders in congress made their move; they introduced a bill in both houses called The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004. Among the sponsors of the bill are Rep. Robert Aderholt (Alabama), Rep. Michael Pence (Indiana), Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, Sen. Zell Miller (Georgia), Sen. Sam Brownback (Kansas), and Sen. Lindsey Graham (South Carolina).

The House version is H.R. 3799 and the Senate version is S. 2082. The bill limits the U.S. Supreme Court and federal courts to hear cases involving “expressions of religious faith by elected or appointed officials.”

Although the claim by its sponsors appears to be that the intention is to prevent the courts from hearing cases involving the Ten Commandments or a Nativity Scene in a public setting from being reviewed, the law is drawn broadly and expressly includes the acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of executing his office.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0402/S00172.htm
(The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004)-CLICK

[distortionmarshall]

13. not the best description of "us" and "them", but, um.....

it IS us against them....

(presumably I'm gonna have to supply a better description, but i'll hold off for now - such good descritions are very available around these parts - modernity vs traditionalist seems perfectly good to me tho....)