What has happened to the DU?

[AmyStrange]

It was once one of the most progressive places in the Universe. I even spent a whole bunch of my time (for free) toiling laboriously to set up an "unofficial" DU Slang Dictionary to make it easier for other folks to feel welcomed here. I even went out of my way sometimes to respond to the lowest number poster in a thread. Most times, they were ignored by the higher numbered posters.

We were THE forum group.

I know times have change and that most of this is my own fault, but I just don't feel welcomed to post here anymore. Anyone else get the same drift that I do?

Dave

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Misinformed01]

4. Snarky?

I didn't realize that the "snark" police were here.

I personally happen to agree partially with AS.

As far as GD04 is concerned, I went there once, got grossed out, got a mod warning, refused to apologize, and had it removed.

[salin]

17. like...

:think: ... this one?

[RapidCreek]

2. Yea I do.

By the way...what the hell is snarky stuff?

RC

[mb7588a]

3. The debate always brings me back...

I only really started participating when this primary season started, but had been lurking since the beginning.

I've never taken everything seriously here on DU, but the debate that occurs each and every day brings me back. I can have a substantive chat with republicans whenever I want in real life, but it is difficult to find fellow liberals who want to debate the issues and make fun of the republicans.

It would be a shame to lose any of the more rational voices on this forum because some of the more radical crazies tend to be unfriendly or whatever. If anything, I think DU has become a lot more representative of the very left fringes of our party, as well as those who are extremely active in all parts of the party, and that excites me.

[corporatewhore]

48. "Radical crazies" are unfriendly to "rationals" gee you must be radical

[einniv]

5. I think the primaries have been somewhat devisive.

Obviously that is amplified here where the information is flowing in almost as fast as it is happening (sooner if you count the astrology threads ;-) ) and that causes raw emotion to be rampant.
Things pass people move on and I think that will happen eventually.

[neoteric lefty]

8. exactly

The Democratic primaries are somewhat like "wartime". The soldiers come out of the woodworks and fight vigorously for their side. Once we get a Dem. in the white house, the peace will come soon after.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

20. ROFLMAO

"Once we get a Dem. in the white house, the peace will come soon after"...

yeah right...

[stevedeshazer]

29. YOU ARE SPARTACUS

...and you should post here more often. :)

[I AM SPARTACUS]

35. aw shucks...but I keep sayin' it...that's my LINE, not my name...

I'm just that geezly lil' ol' dude who stands up out'n the crowd...

Go ahead, say it..."I am Spartacus"...

[Dhalgren]

58. "I AM SPARTACUS!"

I'm the guy right after Tony Curtis.

And I have noticed a decidedly "centrist" shift in the flavor of a lot of posts and posters. If the French "underground" had started becoming more Vichy-like... well you get the idea.

[Cleita]

6. Things have changed and it seems a colder place.

A lot of the old timers aren't posting, but they need to because I miss them and I'm not the only one. Not only that when you leave a vacuum others will come in to fill it. You old timers have to start coming back in and get DU back on track again.

[Lars39]

11. Boards like this are an education cycle.

They took their knowledge and experience somewhere else before even a fraction of what they knew could be passed on to a fraction of those here.

In the earlier days(from around Wellstones death) there was so much research and piecing together of the puzzle that the older posters take for granted, but that the newbies don't have a clue about.

I can drag up the odd article or two, but I know I have nowhere near the skill and downright genius of some folks to connect the dots.

We need to get back to that, while somehow keeping the incoming people up to speed on what we already know.

[Snow]

12. Amen. Lotta shooting from the hip, fast-talking, mouth getting ahead

of the brain, no real thought or even reading what's posted on the rest of the thread. Hell with the skilled research; I'd settle for folks reading what else is on a thread before posting.

[KoKo]

23. ROFL, Snow..........it's so true.

:D

[Zhade]

33. Too many people unwilling to see the truth about some Dems for that.

Some posters here act like their chosen candidate - whoever that may be - is flawless. Likewise, they refuse to look at questionable actions, votes, and assorted dealings of other Dems in power.

Too much willful blindness these days to bring back that inquisitive spirit anytime soon, I'm afraid. I think that's a threat to democracy - if WE won't hold our own to account, who will?

[wellstone_democrat]

42. yeah, I miss that

I remember about two years ago a seriousness that has declined. It isn't all primary related or disruptors but a lot of hyper people who don't take time to even look to see if there are *already* ten threads on the same topic and *never* seem to read entire threads---this is why they go up to 240 posts with endless "me too!" or "yeah, what she said!"

[Atlant]

64. It's okay. The board has new friends now. It doesn't need its old friends.

It's okay. The board has new friends now. It doesn't need its old friends anymore.

You remember its old friends?

The progressive folks who were first active on this board, but
have now been deliberately driven off several times in favor of
the less-likely-to-create-a-fuss-with-the-Republicans DLC-types?

Atlant

[Lars39]

71. Right on target! Complete with avatar, to boot.

Is it time for another *all you need to know about the DLC* thread? I think so.

[Walt Starr]

72. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Give that man the "Truthful Post of the millenium" award!

[Atlant]

96. Thank you. (NT)

[Dees]

73. I miss many of the old timers.

There were some incredible thinkers here in the early days. The family is very large now.

[ParanoidPat]

7. The first answer you received.....

.....is why I don't bother with the GD 2004 forum! :evilgrin:
DU is still here, it's just that with all the new people the flavor has changed somewhat. Try to stay out of that other forum for your own mental health. Keep in mind that everyone else in there is just as convinced that their chosen candidate is the 'best' one as you are of yours! :hi:

Drop in the lounge and order a :beer:, you'll feel better in no time! :toast:

[JasonBerry]

22. You make a good point.

GD2004 carries over to every other forum as well. I almost wish there were no candidate avatars allowed at all to advance discussion without prejudicial opinion because he/she doesn't like your candidate. I say that only half in jest.

[ParanoidPat]

36. Case in point, see below!

LOL! :evilgrin:

If you can't make a coherent case for your candidate, bash the other guy's. :thumbsdown: :evilfrown:

:kick:ABB!:kick:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[denverbill]

69. You've been here two days and you miss the old posters?

I'm not much of a Kerry fan myself, but frankly, you are pushing the limits.

[Fight_n_back]

10. Its bigger

so there are a lot of sub groups and many people who only habatiate a few forums. Some people just pick one.

So the size alone makes almost everyone feel unwelcome, kind of like New York.

[Johnyawl]

13. It's a lot bigger then when we first got here, Dave

There were a couple of hundred people here when I joined in March '02. Now there's about 40,000 registered users. That's like watching your very small town grow into a medium sized city. You're not gonna like everyone who moves to town, and they're not all gonna like you. And the anonymity of the internet allows people to check their manners at the door, which tends to make this "town" a lot ruder and meaner then a RL town.

Exactly why don't you feel welcome to post?

[KG]

14. was a jamming party..

till the 'grown-ups' called the thought police. :)

[SoCalDem]

15. Hey...no fair..

I welcomed you back :)..

Sadly, I think the atmosphere of "one-upsmanship" has invaded this place.. Where once, people were able to gravitate to a thread that was already started, to add their comments, it seems that more and more, people just start a new one and soon we have dueling threads.. I know that some people do not have "search" options, but it gets tedious to have 13 "gay marriage" threads or Rus threads or whatever,,

The mods have had to crack down harder since we have so many newer people who may not have read the FAQ as thoroughly as they should have..

and then there were the primaries..eeeeecccccchhhh :(..

I guess it could just be Bush-fatigue..

Anyhoo..I am glad that you are back, and even while you were gone, I did still send new folks to your glossary :)

[Kimber Scott]

37. Where's the glossary?

I find I have to ask a lot what something means. I'd love to see the glossary.

Thanks!

[SoCalDem]

39. hmmmm. AmyStrange used to have it in his sig

pm him for it :)

I cannot find it in my damned bookmarks.:grr:

[Snow]

54. I've got it....

here ya go -
I take it back - I just went to check the link & it isn't working. But it was here....
http://dug.seattleactivist.org/

[Kimber Scott]

59. Thank you!

Oh, but it didn't work.

Thanks for the effort, anyway.

[Wonk]

67. It's still in google's cache. Link here.

link

Someone might want to mirror it before it expires from the cache.

[Kimber Scott]

70. Great! Thanks.

n/t

[AmyStrange]

53. Thanx SoCalDem...

I have always enjoyed your post, and I really appreciated you welcoming me back. You were the first. You will always be one of my faves,

Dave

[GabysPoppy]

16. Sure do Dave

My reason may be a little different than yours however. Scan through all the "Passion" posts and then spend some time down in the graveyard called I/P. Anti-Semitism runs rampant throughout. Some blatant and some latent. It seems to be in fashion these days by so called ultra left "progressives".

I know use the alert function. Big deal the post disappears yet the poster remains to spread their filth another day. Guess what? I'm not the DU police, nor do I wish to be.

I came and joined DU to rid the world of that ass hole bush* not to have to wallow through anti-Semitic crap. I have decided to just not post but your thread was compelling and I had to respond. I don't know how long this post will be allowed to remain but so what. I will gladly accept the "punishment du jour" to throw in my $.02.

[mmm]

18. As I recall, you were an excellent source of info on the ISM

seems to me such info may not be welcome anymore -
I don't know.
Nontheless, it is good to see you posting.

[stevedeshazer]

19. Keep posting

That'll help. :)

[drdigi420]

21. some would say the rules that attempted to improve

civility have done the opposite

[kodi]

50. the best around here dont suffer fools readily, so they left or got banned

i came on board in early march 2001 under another moniker, then, du had less than 1,000 members (40K plus now). at that time most inhabitants were already politically active with years of experience, brilliant or darn close, and highly motivated to help the democrats win in 2004.

we were united in our anger about the florida debacle, and the theft of the white house by the scotus.

since that time the site has been flooded by lots of great people who contribute fantastic information, but coupled with this has been an influx of folks who could not think their way out of a wet kotex wrapper.

today, a detailed post of mine on scenarios for an electoral college victory by a 2004 kerry-gephardt ticket was responded to with a question as to where one finds such information on electoral college apportionment...and it was asked by a poster with over 1,000 posts.

my reply, that one with so many posts recorded here should be able to do their own google search was deleted by a moderator.

and you wonder why many of the very best have flown the coop?

it is not at all like it used to be. before, thread after thread was a cornucopia of data, knowledge willing shared, and long, thought provoking interchanges. now one would be hard pressed to find a thread having even 20% of the posts where there is more than a few sentences other than "what you said!"

du used to be more akin to an all night bull session of bright people, some with very sharp minds and sharper elbows. now its like listening in on a jr high cafeteria.

my primary reason for remaining on du is that the late breaking news section is the internet's best.

most of the rest is bullshit.

[Walt Starr]

74. That's the most insightful post I've read in a long time

Thank you. You said it far better than I ever could while still saying exactly what I was thinking.

:evilgrin:

[Lars39]

84. Maybe a very skilled googler could post a primer thread

on how to google effectively. We could put it in the Meeting Room to direct people to it. I'll admit my own skills are kind of hit and miss. Not everyone has even had a computer that long, let alone know how to do what the pros would consider basic stuff like googling.
Any takers?

[littlejoe]

90. Nice post. Wish I had been here in the beginning.

[Ksec]

24. Im not sure what it was like long ago but it seems like

theres alot of hatin going on to me. Whether religion or candidates its usually vitriolic IMO.

What was it like back then?

[Dirk39]

25. The U of DU has gone...

I'm just watching from far away, but to me it seems there's a major push to the right and the mainstream. Might have something to do with the primary?

I guess somehow, after the unexpected success of Deans Internet campaign, the DLC-supporters did invade DU.

But that's just my personal conspiracy theory...

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

26. Well said, Dirk...

It does seem as if many that lean further left than middle are harangued more than in past days.

The old DU addiction has waned for many.

[littlejoe]

92. Bush has driven a lot of mainstream democrats underground

in the last three years. But I believe there should be room for all stripe of dems. I am liberal, but not a radical. And I feel that I should belong, as well as all others, who feel that their voices are being squelched.

A little tolerance goes a long way, but it has to work both ways.

Those who are unwilling to bend, usually end up breaking.

[stevedeshazer]

27. Dirk,

I agree with you. As the number of posters increases, there has been a push to the right. Your outside perspective is appreciated.

There are still many of us here on the left. It will only get more confusing until the election in November.

Many centrist and leftist people have fought among themselves during the primary election process. I think they will unite against Bush as soon as the matter is settled.

[goobergunch]

34. I concur. (n/t)

[Tinoire]

40. You beat me to it.

Was going to answer "Attack of the DLC".

[Dirk39]

44. Hi Tinoire,

where have you been?

Although I don't have an opinion about Dean (I guess I would have supported Kuccinich and would rather vote for Nader than for Kerry)...

I just finished reading an article in a german computer magazine about the success of Dean's Internet campaign in 2003 and Kerry's victory, titled: "T.V. killed the Internet Star". Made somehow sense to me:-)

I've missed you here on DU!
Dirk

[Tinoire]

46. Talking a break lol & spreading the progressive wealth elsewhere

where it's been surprisingly more politely received than at the new DU. Between the rudeness, the tired propaganda, the head-burying, the obfuscation, the Nader threads and the threads mocking people's religious beliefs it's been too much of a cess-pool lately.

I'm supporting Kucinich to the bitter end and will end my long affiliation with the Democratic Party as soon as I've cast my vote for Kucinich in the Primaries... I'm watching Kucinich hammer flip-flop Kerry during the debates right now and it's too much of a hoot. Kerry never said anything he said according to him and never voted for anything he voted for. Kerry speak is like French- a few simplistic-looking rules and 5 million exception to everything. Now Sharpton is starting in on Kerry. Sharpton & Kucinich are speaking for me. The DLC never did and never will. Doesn't matter how grand of a coronation they're planning. But I'm not going anywhere Dirk and it's great to see you again! Peace to you :)

Talking about "TV killed the Internet Star"

Check this out and tell me what you think. And well-meaning people are burying their head to this letting the media tell us who to coronate. Urgh.

Media chiefs back Kerry campaign

Owen Gibson
Tuesday February 10, 2004

Kerry: media chiefs have pledged to raise between $50,000 and $100,000

Fresh from his latest win in Maine, the favourite to challenge George Bush for the US presidency has secured the financial support of some of the most powerful media moguls in the world. As John Kerry's campaign to secure the Democrat nomination - and with it a crack at the White House - continues to gather pace, it has emerged that it is being bankrolled by key executives from News Corporation, MTV-owner Viacom and Sony.

<snip>

Unsurprisingly, the donation from News Corp's boardroom came not from chairman Rupert Murdoch, a committed Republican, but from the company's chief operating officer, Peter Chernin.

Mr Chernin, one of Mr Murdoch's most trusted lieutenants, is among several media chiefs who have pledged to raise between $50,000 and $100,000 to support the Vietnam war veteran's campaign for the White House.

Others who have pledged to raise more than $50,000 include the Viacom chief executive, Sumner Redstone, and Sony chairman Howard Stringer, whose name has recently been linked with the vacant chairmanships at ITV and the BBC.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0%2C13918%2C1144797%2C00.html

==

Now Kerry must face up to those tough questions

Republicans will focus on senator's love of lobbyists

Paul Harris in Washington
Sunday February 15, 2004
The Observer

John Kerry, the Democratic favourite to face George Bush in the US presidential elections, has taken millions of dollars in financial backing from special interests and lobbyists. Kerry, who has made fighting special interests a key part of his campaign, has also backed legislation favouring some of his donors and written letters on behalf of corporate backers.

<snip>

Kerry - like Bush - has recruited an army of 'bundlers' who skip around strict campaign finance laws by gathering $2,000 cheques from friends and employees into bundles of $50,000 or $100,000. Kerry has 32 $100,000 bundlers and 87 $50,000 bundlers. They come mainly from powerful law firms, real estate companies, financiers and lobbyists.

Kerry has received more money from lobbyists over the past 15 years than any other serving senator. Some of Kerry's close links with lobbyists have raised eyebrows among supporters used to his campaign slogan: 'From the moment I take up office, I will stand up to special interests.'

<snip>

But Paul Davis, co-founder of internet firm Predictive Networks, has seen the process of how fundraising and legislation mix. Kerry met a top Predictive executive on 25 July, 2000. A day later Kerry introduced a Senate bill that would allow internet firms to monitor what their consumers were viewing and that Predictive had been lobbying for. In February 2002 Predictive chief executive Devin Hosea threw a fundraiser for Kerry in Boston. Kerry was given a lift back to Washington DC in a private jet. Hosea threw a second fundraising party that summer. In the end Hosea become one of Kerry's $100,000 'bundlers'.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1148524,00.html

[Desertrose]

52. me too Tinoire....

....was thinking about staying Dem for awhile but sure don't feel like it anymore....now that I voted for DK...think I will change back....

and I agree...the new DU is depressing as hell......

Peace
DR

ps check your inbox :)

[kiahzero]

97. I know you and I disagree a lot

but I'd appreciate it if you didn't infer that I was a DLC astroturfer. As one of the more moderate, centrist people on the board, I'm getting awfully tired of being smeared.

I would have voted for Dean if he were the nominee; I would have voted for Kucinich were he the nominee. Hell, I would have voted for Nader if he were the nominee, even though I think he's just an egomaniac.

Some of us honestly believe that ABB is the best way to go in 04. Is that so wrong?

[w4rma]

99. I agree with you, kiahzero.

I've been posting on DU since 2001. I thought back then and I still think that the best tactic is to support and vote for the Democratic nominee (not another party's nominee) and to work for change from within the Democratic Party rather than from outside of it.

[Tinoire]

103. w4rma. I'm 43. How long must I patiently expect change from within?

Been waiting 25 years. How much longer? Or should I just go to my grave simplistically believing that the next generation might eventually take care of things?

Change not within my life-time counts as no change at all.

[Tinoire]

102. Sorry.

While I may have no disrespect for you as a person, there is NO way I will ever respect the DLC. If that's what people are willing to back, they best make damn sure that they are ok with what they're backing. The DLC is the Republican wing of the Democratic Party so of course they have a lot invested in ABB.

Again. And no desire to be cruel but DLC sob stories are leaving me very cold right now. Anyone supporting their positions should at least be like Edwards and say "this is what I belive in & I'm sticking to it".

I'm sorry but there's no way in hell will I ever be able to say that it's ok to line up behind an empty slogan. Looking for real action here...

If not now, then when?

[Tinoire]

106. On edit. You have every right to believe that

without being smeared. My problem is more with the DLC than with its supporters. 4 years ago, back when I had a life, I would have been all for the DLC also. The slams are not on you. Sorry because I understand your frustration.

[fishnfla]

28. Times change, things change, people can't

I'm sorry to hear it aint working for you. I think DU is great.

[Ksec]

30. I do too other than the

obvious ideology some think should dominate. Dems come in all sizes and shapes . Its best to accept that IMO

[AmyStrange]

31. Thank you everyone for all your kind words and support...

I don't have a single clue what to say or how to thank you for listening. I hope all the friends I've made here ((((HUGz)))).

I hope y'all know I'm not going no where anytime soon. The low posters here (and everywhere) need as many people listening to them as possible...

Dave

The Revolution will be televised...





by FauX News

[Dirk39]

32. O.K., o.k.,

but take some criticism from far away, now: where's your webpage. I did just explore it a few days ago. After asking about 234 former U.S. citizens, what the hell a freeper is? Tom did just say, he has made 847 liver-transplantation, but he can't help me out. And I wanted to know, how to become a member of that prominent BFEE club. Noone could help me, since I've found your webpage. Now it's gone. That's not fair!


Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Philosophy]

38. Electability

:evilfrown:

[fleetus]

41. Thanks for the DU Slang Dictionary.

It's handy for the newer folks (like me).

One thing that interested me in this message board was the average age. Lots of wisdom here, and I appreciate it.

(maybe they should go back to raw number of posts instead of 1000+ so the really seasoned DU'ers stand out more?)

[Tinoire]

43. A deliberate orchestration to silence the Left

There are many new posters here. Some know and fit right in, others just don't know but they ask and engage in discourse. There are others, too many others, whose sole mission here seems to be to beat up an people to shut them up and push the DLC line; they come across as either inellectually incapable or deliberately unwilling to engage in the type of conversations that made DU what it is. Things went down-hill from there. Organizations like the NED that topple uncooperative Leftist Leaders are now benevolent organizations. The murderous School of the Americas is a finishing school for officers. War & occupation are grand old things that alas no one wants but x,y,z so it's ok. IWR votes should be forgiven and people forget the pledges we made years ago because the corporate-financed Bush enablers are "electable".

I can approximately pin-point when this started because I have a slew of PMs from old DU-ers who were extremely concerned about the orchestrated invasions which were as sloppily coordinated & as stealthy as a herd of stampeding elephants.

Not to worry though, old soldiers never die. There are little teams fighting our same battles elsewhere. We're not giving in to the DLC without a damn good fight because we didn't hang around here for 4 years working on change only to stand by helplessly as the DLC marches in again to "save" the party with a whalloping loss because they're more concerned with pandering to corporations than to the people. Don't despair. You'll recognize DU again soon enough.

Welcome back and know that you should always feel welcome. You helped make this place what it is. Nevermind the few rude, agenda-driven upstarts because the place is beginning to settle down again. You can tell because some of the more centrist people, the ones who didn't know, have been asking questions and not liking what they're learning. Slowly creeping back to the Left. All it takes is exposure and the more people like you post, the more inquiring posters will have the right information to weigh against the media drivel.

[Zinfandel]

81. I know a lot of early excellent DU posters are now gone "tombstoned."

They always have a reason why...it just seems they changed the rules in the middle of the game. Know what I mean?

[Malva Zebrina]

86. I honestly do not know what you are talking about

I suspect it is very important to you, but it is all a mystery to me.

If one cannot be willing to go with the flow, then one will be chained to a perception of the past.

That is what happens , actually, to conservatives. A return to the "golden years"--backwards--and that will solve everything!

We know that it is not the case. One cannot selfishly expect that what they participated in, perhaps created, will remain the same, especially when the population of posters has grown so vastly.

What exactly is the angst? What is the longing?

The place is a place where people post, most usually, in one paragraph reactions. It does not lend itself to complicated diaglogue, and the new members do not owe, nor understand, the pride of the originators at all. IN fact, some of them are downright obnoxious.

I remember when I first posted here. I am not a particuarly politically astute analyst, having entered that domain as a late bloomer when Bush stole the presidency.

I was told that there are people here who were so influential in the early years of this site as to be it's martyrs practically,and it's originators, so therefore they assumed some rights, I thought, because that was the impression they wished to convey. No doubt they were proud, but the tendency, the very human tendency to establish a pecking order between those who were the "first" participants in DU and who were responsible for it's birth, was there.

:shrug: It is not that way and was already beginning to change when I first came here as a member.

If one cannot stand change then one needs to align themself with the Republican conservatives. This is big tent here. It is a lesson in acceptance and a lesson in developing the skills necessary to "get along"

[RandomKoolzip]

45. When I was first lurking here, your posts were ones that

particularly caught my brain....You ought to post more to balance out the views you disagree with.

"If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."-Scoop Nisker

[opihimoimoi]

47. There are a whole buch of old timers still here. Young and old, we

are loyal to this DU Community. I been here since Aug 01 just before the attack. Along with many of you, I have been disgusted watching the Bushy Horror Show. He is downright embarrassing.

But the question Dave is asking, the good feeling of DU is fading? resulting in old timers leaving, etc less posting, etc...? Like any thing else, things like this can get tiresome, boring, and, in some cases, depressing. So, many people leave and some come back. Some learn, some don't. Some come to distract, sully our place, many come to enhance DU with energy and input. This is a Discussion Board.

But most of us want a Better World, a Better America, a Better Future, for us and our children. This is why we stay. We have learned to cut out the chaff, the trash, the hate, that trolls spew here. We come to have fun, learn new things, and most of all, how we can make America Beautiful once more.

Bush says,THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM. In reality, its more like they HATE us for our Arrogance, in particular, the PUB Brand of Arrogance. That idiot doesn't have a clue. I would venture he never read a "Leadership Book" in his life. So what made him Prez?? PR.
Yup, PR, the art of Foolin'.

Learn this: Our Dem Party is a collection of somewhat like minded people. We have principles and goals for our Nation and its people. The Pubs say all this too, wrap themselves in flags, etc, but in reality, they are a selfish bunch who are very wealthy. They have taken the old GOP and made into a new one far different. The PR firms they use demand big money but guess what, it works. Skill, stealth, and sins, put Bush in the WH. How else can we explain the presence of this First Idiot in there?

And so, gangy, don't despair, worry. Hang tough, stay the course. WE all need each other to do the job no one else is gonna do, make America strong and Proud once more. And we don't need the friggen BIG STICK to do it with either, there are many other ways. One of which is TOGETHER WE WIN. DIVIDED WE SUCK.

[Zinfandel]

98. Scoop Nisker? KSAN?

[MrPrax]

49. The decline...

I figure it was when Dean suggested even idiots with the audacity of displaying a confederate flag in their vehicles had a right to health care was the decline...

It lite up and melted down...sorta like Thursday February 26 2004 -- 22:15 -08:00 (GMT)

just an opinion

[Room101]

51. I miss DU1 I'm growing tired of DU2................

I don't know if it's the DLC troops invading or the fact that I’m an IDNY in an increasingly partition board.

[info being]

55. It's gone mainstream. Most of the ideals our out the window

[BradCKY]

56. Yes maybe the DLC is here

People like myself who are much closer to the center on many issues have arrived, and I think that is a healthy thing, after all this is a board meant for all democrats and left leaning individuals right?

Plus it brings on plenty of good debates.

[buddhamama]

57. It's bigger

my friend, a lot bigger. i have been here a long time and have seen the change. I think the primaries are creating tension and anxiety for a great many people. We all want our 'guy' to win, and we fear another four yrs of Bush*.

hey, i didn't beg you to come back just to have you bail again.

stay and help change the atmosphere. if you leave, you're letting 'them' win.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[AmyStrange]

75. Don't worry my friend...

I'm not going no where. I'm just gonna get out of the "tense" political aspect of it and just have fun for a while.

d

[buddhamama]

79. concentrate on the issues with me

we've worked well together in the past;
collecting and exchanging info.

an informed citizenry is essential to democracy.

[chookie]

60. My 2 cents

There are jerks at DU -- proportional to the percent of jerks in the general population. I dunno -- there is an aggressive, in-your-face style that seems to be fashionable these days everywhere that may be a part of it. Some people don't care about "agreeing to disagree" but instead wish to have unanimous consent to their personal positions. Some are just plain rude. Some just love to agitate and be agitated. And some are deliberately disruptive. Again -- I don't think its worse than in the general population.

I come here to discuss, but mainly to listen. I guess I am interested in exhange of ideas -- not mass persuasion.

I am interested in getting opinions from as wide a variety of people as possible -- even if I don't agree with their positions -- because I want to have a sense of what is happening in a general sense, and what kind of issues are on peoples' minds. It doesn't make sense to decry the notion that DU has drifted to the right (even if that was true) -- when it represents a probably trend in the whole country.

I sure hope that *everyone* continues to post their perceptions and opinions. Even if I do not embrace, or perhaps even reject, an opinion, I am grateful for the education I can receive here as to what that position encompasses. I can find articulate spokespersons from many viewpoints here. Perhaps they feel frustrated at times that they are not making headway and that so many people argue against them, but what they may not be aware of is that they are in fact being heard.

It is rather frustrating, however, that it can be quite challenging to be frank here. There are issues I would love to discuss that I don't dare bring up, because people are going to be bouncing off the walls, claiming that their special interest is being violated -- but then again, that is the risk of participating in an open forum. If we don't have thick enough hide to survive DU -- we SURE don't have what it takes to survive political life in modern America!

[underpants]

61. NO

[KT2000]

62. As a low poster

don't know how it was before. I do know though that when I first found DU I enjoyed your posts - actually I went to your web page - really liked it.
Also - appreciated very much the slang dictionary and have it bookmarked. That was an incredible amount of work.

This is a site for opinionated people - in an angry election season. I really do think it could be worse.

[AmyStrange]

76. Thanx...

for your kind words,

d

[WI_DEM]

63. The DLC, win at any cost crowd

has infiltrated and taken over DU. It was a nice progressive place once upon a time.

[tom_paine]

65. No. And I've been here since March 2001

I do think there are more Bushevik Infiltrators here now and that they have gottne much more sophisticated.

I am also of the opinion that, as "election" time comes closer, this trend will intensify.

That could explain what you and many others have been saying, but of course it's just my opinion.

[lumpy]

68. More Bushevik Infiltrators.

I agree.

[damnyankee2601]

66. Get over yourself

You built a great thing, and many people have turned to DU for moral support in a very dark time. Would you kick them out of your shelter in order to maintain philosophical purity?

[Snow]

77. Read what she said - it's not about purity of opinion,

it's about thinking before writing, doing some research instead of just spouting a quick opinion, about reading the threads before duplicating for the fourth time a point that's already been made.

[MISSDem]

78. Wow! maybe there should be an IQ test administered to each of us

before one is allowed to post so that it will be certain that we are smart enough to mix with you really wise folks. What an ego trip some of you are on and what a bad impression you give of liberals.

[Snow]

80. See, this is what I mean.....

what were you responding to? Your post says you're responding to #66, but for the life of me I can't see any connection between what he/she said & your clumsy sarcasm. What are you going on about?

[MISSDem]

82. Like I said,

we of the great unwashed actually have the audacity to come here and post on "your" forum when everyone knows that we don't have anything to say and/or don't know what we are talking about. Why don't we just go away and let the choir preach to the choir?

[Snow]

83. Yes, I heard you the first time. You're simply repeating yourself.

but who said something that you're responding to? Post 66 did not. The OP kinda did, but IMHO you're reading a lot into it if you get intellectual snobbery out of it. And is sarcasm the only argument technique you know? Try making your point in some other fashion - you may discover what it is you're trying to say and end up communicating instead of confusing.

[sallydallas124]

85. View from a "tin hatter"

I came here in the summer of 2001 and have been a devoted lurker, occasional poster (as is evident by my post count). At this time, I was disgusted by the election debacle and hungry for any information that discussed or provided evidence of how the election was stolen. Bits and pieces of damning information was coming out periodically. I was also frustrated by the fact that others in my life thought it unfathomable that *, et al were capable of this. Media Whores had just changed their posting format from one which was immediate to more delayed. I found this place and was excited to find a place with such quick-flowing information and people discussing and trying to piece together the election and other administration actions. I remember some resistance to the idea that the election was stolen but people didn't seem to greet other people's ideas with the high levels of hostility as they do now. There seemed to be much more room to hash it all out. It seemed to change when people started questioning the official story of 9/11 and has gone downhill, in terms of respectful discourse, since then.
It's also interesting to see a lot more conservative dogma thrown around here. I don't think DU should be boarded off from other viewpoints and yes, it's a 'big tent,' but, good god, dems should be able to agree on some basic principles.

[Kamika]

87. sometimes yes.. es if you're religious

It has become way too sensitive..

It feels like there are people just waiting to alert you.. even though you're a liberal..

Not to mention the extreme anti christian feeling here even though it's stated in the rules no anti religios bigotry is allowed

I would be ok with that if it wasn't for the fact that someone even hinting something bad about jews/muslims/minorities/homosexuals gets banned immediately

[ulysses]

88. Christians in America

are not a minority, nor have they been persecuted in anything like recent history. Which is not to say that I agree with slams that fail to discern between fundies and the religious left - I don't - but given the use of Christianity by the right as a cudgel to threaten civil liberties, I think a greater willingness toward understanding on all sides might be helpful.

[Malva Zebrina]

91. I noticed that Anti-Christian behavior myself when the term "fundies"

was ineveitably linked with "whakos" on a few recent threads. Apparently, that is acceptable bigotry.

Perhaps it would be safe to say that there is some acceptable bigotry going round here and that is bigotry toward Christians who are fundamentalists--they are the enemy, no matter if the poster knows what fundamentalism actuall means to these believers or not.

No, there is definate bias here on DU-and there is definate bias as to what gets deleted. Never, it seems to these bigoted posts toward Christians get deleted. But mention one thing about the Jews that is actually factual or puzzling and not complimentary--not praising, but actually a real look at the situation, and--wow, you get deleted for "anti-semtism" although you have never ever been anti-semitic in your entire seventy plus years of living on this planet.

[littlejoe]

89. Dave, I feel your frustration. I hadn't seen this post, when I posted

pretty much the same thing in another forum.

Logically crafted and informed thought is most welcome by me. It is what I give, and it is what I expect in return.

I had hoped for lively debate this season, but things aren't quite working out that way.

I intend to stick around though, and work from within the system to change things here.

[Robb]

93. One of the neatest things here

...is that people just wander in off the street.

The fact that so few of them are troublesome (IMO) speaks volumes to both the quality of the environment here, and the quality of the population out there.

I agree with others that the ugliness is cyclical, and too shall pass. And it'll be back. That's part of the deal.

Great thread.

[FlaGranny]

95. We hope that "this too will pass."

I originally joined DU back in early 2001 - January, February or March? Not quite sure which month. This place was a godsend. Then 9/11 happened. We had a handful of posters who actually seemed gleeful about it. Their main thing was "we deserved it." I found myself disliking them more and more over time and finally left the board for about six months. When I returned, things had settled down. I just couldn't stand the cruel attitude. I could even see their point about "deserving it" but just couldn't take their attitude about it. They were a minority and they chased many more moderate folks away from this board at the time. It was a heartwrenching time and these posters (none of whom I believe are here any more) seemed to get a particular joy out of making everyone hurt even more. Now, it seems we are complaining because moderates are taking over. The times - they are a changin - again.

[The River]

94. Forums Have A Life Cycle

They go from being "brand new", exciting and intimate. The initial
membership (the first few hundreds) is like a family. Everybody knows everybody and there is more agreement than disagreement.
As a board gains popularity, it's dynamics change. Quite often it
becomes a victim of it's own success -->population. Now the board is less a family and more like a large village (with more than it's share of idiots running around!). I joined somewhere around 10K or so when things were at their peak. Anyhow...
The old timers (who became early admins-moderators)tend to withdraw and either form back channels of communication(a private board within the board) along with PM's/ emails, take their considerable talents to a larger audience (like Will Pitt) or, disgusted, quit all together. There are those rare few who stick to it (nods to Mods) and keep DU going.
DU isn't overly large and would probably be a great site if it were dedicated to a single "hobby" type topic (like model railroading or collecting beer cans). BUT...being a political board, there can be more topic threads than most people can handle. Being a Democratic board means there are probably twice that many...

Beyond the obvious Trolls and disruptor's who seem to be multiplying on DU there are also a lot of:

1. "Me-too'rs". People who simply post a word or three without really adding to the debate.
2. "Professional Devils Advocates". You know who they are. It doesn't matter the topic or post...they just want to argue.
3. The "Purists", also know as the "Holier-Than-Thous" who won't support any candidate but their own. If you're not behind Kerry or Edwards by now .. you might want to start a new forum called Sourgrapes.Dem
4. Special Interest groups. (ooooop's can't go there can we?)
Er...nevermind
I'm sorry if this seems a bit harsh but thats the way I see it. IMHO
I know my post count is low so you can "diss" me on that basis if you want but I've been lurking a long time now. 90% of my visits are to LBN for links to follow but I do browse GD regularly and I DO know boards and chat rooms. (3 years of post grad course work on "internet psychology"). Been there, Done that, Got the Flame Proof T shirt to prove it.

Pax
River

Mods...PM me if you ever feel the
need to bring in a board consultant.

[KoKo]

107. Hey, River! Would love to see an expanded post on your experience!

Seriously. Go to the "Meeting Room" and post where it can stay up. The "Psychology of Internet Boards." I've seen some posts here alluding to this phenomenon, but being that this is the only Board I've ever posted on and maybe there are some others like me that would like to hear your experiences. Plus, how can this be "overcome" here? Any thoughts? Many of us want to see DU Grow and work for change, or become a "Salon type Magazine Format," which will reflect diversity and talent of ideas. Our DU Amins/Owners might not know this. But, some of us think DU is unique enough to morph into something better.

And, some of us take this place seriously enough to keep at it, so it's in our interest to get some opinions about this.

:-)'s DU "Meeting Room." I'm looking for that post, if you have the time.....

[w4rma]

100. Don't let *anyone* run you off. Fight! (n/t)

[Ksec]

101. so the real problem is a swing to the center

from an extreme left. At least thats what Im getting from this thread. Its balance. What goes up comes down. Swing to the right swing to the left. Its life man. Thats the way it works.

[philosophie_en_rose]

104. You can make it better by participating.

:grouphug:

The tone has changed a lot at DU. However, it can't change for the better if everyone that is concerned just leaves.

[Bonhomme Richard]

105. More people, more opinions, it's a good thing

[Deja Q]

108. Not when some take over and drove the others out...

I think that's her point.

I suppose we do need a mix.

But no one side should get too strong, though in my heart it's liberal idealism that means more for the world than the centrists who support corporate interests and oil...

Idealism leads to invention. Living under the rule of law doesn't inspire anybody to invent... this is why we need more liberals, and fewer conservatives.