Why don't we just make Affirmitave Action class based already?

[Mass_Liberal]

It just friggin makes sense. That way it would be fair, and nobody would have a problem w/ it.

[MikeGalos]

1. That would make sense

if there wasn't any additional stigma in being anything other than a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Male.

Call me when that happens.

[beanball]

4. Go Mike

you are so right.

[kysrsoze]

59. Race is absolutely NOT the issue

We're moving toward a caste society with two levels: haves and have-nots. This administration doesn't care for ANYONE who is not wealthy. They've screwed ALL of us "regular" Americans.

Bush et al will draft anyone they can get their hands on, and will not hesitate to cut public aid, social security, education, jobs and medical care for anyone, whether they are white, black or whatever.

Unless you are rich, this administration has no concern for you.

[Fovea]

2. I am down with that.

I am writing my House Representitive.

[Chuletas]

3. I think...

because nobody would have a problem with it. Integrating society is an uncomfortable thing to do. People tend to choose/hire/select people who are like them,culturally and racially not out of any overt racism.

The ultimate goal of course is individuation, the "content of their character", we aren't quite there yet. 240 years of slavery, another 100 or so of jim crow, I think we can give A/A a few more years.

[newyawker99]

60. Hi Chuletas!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Yupster]

5. You are correct Mass-Lib

It would be more fair and have much more support.

[tobius]

6. as an Hispanic I have always felt patronized that I am viewed as

"less than". I refused any special help and did not join an Hispanic engineering group that tried to recruit me. Let me compete one on one and I'll deal with the results. In the long run , if company A doesn't hire me for any reason other than my qualifications and what I can contribute , I will go to company b, c, or d and the strongest company wins. If I don't get hired? screw 'em and I'll start my own business (have before) and win that way.

[AgadorSparticus]

8. your post is exactly why A/A was created.

[tobius]

11. A/A views me as less than. Don't want, don't need the help.

I'll do it myself, thanks anyway.

[noiretextatique]

20. AA doesn't view you as less than

AA was about getting you in the door when the *tradition* was to exclude you, no matter how qualified and competent you were. and on another note: some may still feel you are less qualified, regardless of how qualified you really are.

[tobius]

26. I am in the highest tax bracket and my 6 yr old

has access to any school we choose, plus tutors and coaches. Why should she get a boost over someone asian or white that doesn't have that access?
I came from a family of migrant workers and would rather show her what's possible no matter who's against you than sit back and wait for someone to fix the system. If you choose to believe that you can't make it because of "the man" , you wont make it, A/A or not.

[sangh0]

29. Here's why

Because discrimination is a problem for middle class and upper class Hispanics too. Surprisingly, bigots do not only discriminate against the poor. You could say they are Equal Opportunity Discriminators.

Hey, maybe it shouldn't be a crime to steal from the rich. They don't need all that stuff.

[tobius]

32. don't steal from me. nt

[noiretextatique]

31. you may not need AA...are you saying NO ONE does?

and i still say, regardless of AA...there are some who don't care about your money or your education and just see your race. and please don't lecture me about "the man"...it's as insulting when you do it as when anyone else does :eyes:
like it or not...AA opened doors for people like YOU and me. as to whether it's still necessary now...i think it will be until everyone child has the same educational opportunities.

[tobius]

35. AA is discrimination based on race

if there is to be a leg up given, it should be class ( income) based. Racism and prejudice will always be with us, life is not fair. Attractive people have an easier time, tall people are seen as leaders, posture is judged, thin people , stronger people, smarter people, non-smokers, pot smokers, extroverts vs introverts, inner drive, athletic vs clumsy, there will never be a level playing field, the question is what are you as an individual going to do about it?

[TahitiNut]

38. Actually, it's quite the opposite.

(1) Not everything that organizations and corporations do under the banner of "Affirmative Action" is really "Affirmative Action". There's plenty of cynicism in such programs, some of which is intentionally designed to (literally) give a false impression of what AA is all about. AA is the correction applied when a corporation or organization has failed to genuinely implement an EEO program and culture. At one time, it was only imposed by courts.

(2) The biggest myth by far is that Affirmative Action gives preferences to unqualified people. Of all the myths, nothing could be further from the truth. Do cynical corporations and other organizations sometimes deliberately create this perception? Yes. Absolutely. In doing so, it is an outright attempt to sabotage EEO programs. (I've worked in corporations where I had direct knowledge of such attitudes and biases.)

(3) Corporations having pervasively bigoted cultures betray their embedded prejudices in many ways, not the least of which is in historically focusing their recruitment at colleges and universities (and regions and neighborhoods) having the highest ratios of 'advantaged' students and strictly avoiding recruitment at black colleges. They then further exacerbate this by having a recruiting team almost always composed of white males -- often because they've so long avoided hiring highly qualified minorities and females that they have a hard time finding them even in their own employee population. The cynicism and hypocrisy is often only ascertainable with a bit more than a superficial look. I worked in one such pervasively bigoted organization where the chief executive was a black male -- a politically conservative black male having a very jaundiced (pardon the pun on skin color) view of the members of his own race. The public relations brochures (annual reports, etc.) from such organizations will often be very carefully designed -- yet you'd often not be able to find any depicted person of color still working there 2-3 years later. It's actually rather amazing to see the demographics of layoffs compared to the overall demographics of such organizations. You'd think they were overpopulated with minorities. It's always easy to give excuses, though. After all, it's a seniority thing, right? :eyes:


This assault on AA/EEO is seemingly quite successful. After all, what person wants to be viewed as underqualified? Who wants to be regarded as a "charity case"?

Somewhat more interestingly, people fail to ask how it is that an organization/corporation would ever get into that situation in the first place. After all, if any particular promotion/hire has to be given to someone who's underqualified, what about the last one? the one before that? the one before that? the ones before that?

After all, do people really believe that it's not possible to both recruit/hire/promote qualified people and maintain a diverse workforce? That's exactly what one must believe if one believes for even a second that an organization/corporation could ever find itself unavoidably hiring/promoting someone who's underqualified solely due to "Affirmative Action". Because this is what one must believe, the cynically fallacious argument that AA requires underqualified people to be hired/promoted appeals mostly to the already-bigoted or pridefully ignorant (but I repeat myself). Anyone who'd believe this isn't thinking ... isn't thinking about how an organization/corporation would ever get into such a position in the first place.

Remember, Affirmative Action programs have never required a workforce to be over-representative of minorities. Indeed, court-imposed AA was only done when the degree to which minorities were represented was about two standard deviations below the demographics of the relevant workforce. (The relevant workforce is extensively well-studied and broken down in terms of region and skills.)

[noiretextatique]

40. all excellent points

i think some of us forget that some colleges and employers simply did not hire or admit non-whites....period. i think some forget that some employers and colleges did not hire or admit women...period. i think some forget that when employers did hire non-whites or women, they were hired only for certain positions at certain pay rates. this is the fairly recent history that created AA, which was not just about leveling the playing field, it was also about providing access that was previously denied...as least that was one of its effects.
as to how we can evolve from exclusion based on race and gender to *reverse discrimination* in less than 50 years...when the OTHER situation went on for a couple of centuries:
only in america :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

43. I think the most important thing to remmber ...

... is that the enemies of anything will often cloak themselves as allies and act as saboteurs.

Whenever I hear of an instance of unfair "reverse discrimination" I am absolutely certain that the involved organization has a long-standing discriminatory culture. It's a lock - a certainty. There's no way in hell that they could get to that single instance without a long history of discriminatory behavior.

(BTW, luv ... :hug: :loveya: ... miss ya)

[Rich Hunt]

47. thank you

I don't know if people are in denial about the culture in so many workplaces, or what...

I've seen so many instances of people favoring folks who are 'like them' in some way - they went to the same schools, have similar lifestyles, etc. They avoid hiring anyone they perceive as 'too different' and justify it using code words like, 'I feel more comfortable working with this particular person.' I've seen every bullshit reason imaginable for hiring a person, and it often comes down to nepotism, or that fact that the person being hired comes from the same 'social circle', or 'gee, they look and dress just like me!', or they know the same people as the one doing the hiring. This happens ALL THE TIME, and even people who think they're 'liberal' do it. I personally have no respect for people who cheat or who help their friends cheat to get ahead - it makes me sick. It's very often not about who would make the best employee, but who the bosses feel 'fits in' the best. I'm tired of this back-slapping, coded-language crap.

AA is necessary in part to intervene in this process.

[TahitiNut]

57. As anyone in "the business" will tell you,

... over 90% of new hires come from referrals: networking. Even more today than ever, it's who not what you know. In many communities that means belonging to the same churches and clubs and living in the same neighborhoods.

As hiring managers get younger and younger (and less experienced), we see an increased tendency to choose the least 'challenging' candidates. As old as the hiring manger's parents? Forget it. A different skin color than the hiring manager? Keep looking. (Yes, discrimination inhabits the carcass no matter the wrapping.)

It's often seen in something as simple as affording flex hours to some and burdening those with the more onerous commutes with inflexible work schedules. In "red-lined" areas, this is effective in keeping the 'outsiders' down.

[noiretextatique]

39. i will work to make the playing field level

instead of giving in to fatalistic thinking, e.g., "there will always be..."
the history (and evolution of consciousness) in this country proves you WRONG. if others thought like you do...no progress would have ever been made in race relations in this country, which happened because of the efforts of the people who did not accept "business as usual" as the norm...as natural, or as desirable.
that's what i am doing...how about YOU?

[tobius]

64. don't have time to change other peoples attitudes, other than

the example I show and the value I bring. I live here in silicon valley and amny tech based companies hired the talent they needed, this included Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese ..etc. employees. It starts with each individual and family and community to teach the value of staying in school and not to have children until your ready. The Japanese were interned here fairly recently and have always faced discrimination. Recent immigrants from all over the world come here and face the same hurdles. My overall point is that yes, there are bigots everywhere and it may be harder for me than a white guy, but so what. It can still be done and eventually a company that discriminates on race will lose if we are valuable to their competitors or become the competition.

What I'm doing is showing by example like my parents did for me.

[noiretextatique]

65. did i mention anything about changing attitudes?

i did not. i said...i will work to make the playing field level. one way i can do that is by owning my own business and employing people in my community. personally, i don't think any gains have been won by changing attitudes...they have been won with persistence. and along he way...attitudes do get changed. as to the rest...i don't think i need to tell you that the history of african-americans, for example, is not the same as that of japanese-americans, for example...that's just a fact. as horrid as internment was (during WWII and before with immigrants on angel island)...it's not THE SAME as what african-americans, for example, experienced and experience. no matter how much you say it...it will never make it so.
likewise, immigrants coming into this country now don't face the same discrimination that immigrants did, say 150 years ago.

a company that discriminates...will probably not lose a damn thing unless people are made aware of its policies. that's another way to set an example, wouldn't you agree?

[tom_paine]

27. Mr. Mattera, is that you?

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1139

Love your work.

[formernaderite]

37. Equally weird...Asians get no special treatment, why not?

Alot of Asians and South East Asians come to this country with nothing, and yet they're not considered a disadvantaged minority. Why not? I have no problem with affirmative action, I just wish it was fairly administered.

[TheDonkey]

51. Facts please?

Affirmative Action is about integrating schools or employement. If a campus has a proportion of asian students necessary for integration (which is usually the case) they don't have to actively court asian students.

BUT schools like mine which does not have a representational asian population does actively court asians and they do recieve financial incentives (less than our soccer players and they are bad!).

Historically Black universities also are required to integrate giving out incentives.

[AgadorSparticus]

7. because there is still alot of racism and discrimination.

in fact, i think it's worse now than in the 80's. sometimes it's subtle. sometimes it's not. but it's there...

[MikeGalos]

10. When the economy is down, racism goes up

as does sexism, anti-Semitism, gay bashing and all other forms of bigotry.

What a surprise that these tend to all track with Republicans being in power.

[strategery blunder]

9. It's a great idea but the pols will never do it

I hate to sound like a freeper (I'm not one) but politicians pander to minorities as groups, not individuals, because they vote so strongly in blocs. My guess is this idea would really rankle minorities. Dem pols are afraid of this; repuke pols would never support any form of affirmative action or help for the poor (unless they are a dem masquerading as a repuke).

I personally was caught between two systems of privelige--one for wealthy/middle class whites and one for minorities (affirmative action as it is now). The problem is I am a poor white; my mom had work 70 hrs a week to support herself and I right after I graduated from high school she had to sell the house because she could no longer afford it. (The escrow payment for property taxes went up by $500/month in 2 years. Nice tax cut, Bush! }( )

Financial aid/scholarships only cover about half my tuition. Were it not for my grandmother, who saved every penny she ever got her hands on (grew up in the Depression), I would not be able to go to college at all. I probably would be trapped in poverty (or close to it) for the rest of my life.

It is a sad thing indeed when grandparents must be relied upon to fund college. (I could have joined the military for the GI benefit, I suppose, but I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to serve under Dumbya.)

We need class based affirmative action to help all the poor, not just poor people with certain skin pigmentations. White people can fall victim to capitalism too.

Also would get rid of racism allegations by freepers, while still helping minorities.

EDIT: spelling

[MikeGalos]

12. And while that's a valid need

that's not what Affirmative Action is for. It IS for trying to make up for discrimination.

Now, what you're asking for is assistance for those in need and that's also a valid need and a valid social policy. But taking from the needy to pay for the needy while those with excess get more than they can use is not the answer.

Perhaps the best way to really deal with this is to return to an economic structure that the Republicans love to espouse but hate in reality. That of the US under Eisenhower.

In 1956 the minimum wage was $1.00 and the median household income (really the median wage since almost all households were single income at that point) was $4,000. That means that every worker - EVERY WORKER willing to do an honest days work got half of the average US wage. To do that today would mean that the minimum wage would be around $13.875/hour in today's dollars. Yes, the person flipping burgers used to get the equivalent of $27,500 per year. Now it's 1/3 of that and when he and his wife both work full time, they still make 1/3rd less than their grandfather did.

You want assistance for low earning people? Fix the minimum wage. The rest will fix itself.

[strategery blunder]

16. But I still have to compete with the rich and well connected

for positions, even if I could afford it (remember Dumbya at Yale with his C average?)

In theory, get rid of legacies; in practice it won't happen...that is why affirmative action should be class-based (and remember it will still help minorities, too).

Economic discrimination is just as rampant as racial discrimination.

[MikeGalos]

19. Yes you do

but that has nothing to do with AA and tying it to AA is only raiding one social program helping those in need for another. After Reagan, BushI and BushII, frankly that isn't where we need to get money and programs.

[strategery blunder]

34. Then I propose two AA systems

one based on the way it is now...
and the other class-based.

Minorities would be able to participate in both if they have the economic need to qualify for the class-based system.

All I'm trying to say is that something needs to be done about the legacy problem and the rapidly rising costs.

[sangh0]

44. AA is not a poverty program

and discriminating against someone due to their class is NOT illegal.

All I'm trying to say is that something needs to be done about the legacy problem and the rapidly rising costs.

So what? That has nothing to do with AA. AA is meant to remedy discrimination, not poverty.

[strategery blunder]

52. Discriminating against someone due to their class is NOT illegal

and there was a day when discriminating against someone due to their race was not illegal...

To which you will probably reply: "That's the POINT of AA."

Just because something is legal does not make it right. MLK started to get into class issues shortly before he was assassinated. I believe that classism should be the next frontier of the civil rights movement. But that's just my wacko opinion :shrug: .

[sangh0]

30. White people have to compete with the rich too

Is that AA's fault too?

[pnb]

33. Faulty assumption

"Now, what you're asking for is assistance for those in need and that's also a valid need and a valid social policy. But taking from the needy to pay for the needy while those with excess get more than they can use is not the answer."

But that is partially what is occuring now. You talk about taking from the needy to pay for the needy...does that include taking from poor whites to pay for rich blacks?

Your statement only makes sense if no whites are needy and all minorities are...which is simply not even close to true.

[Brewman_Jax]

36. Basic misconception

don't fall into the trap. Affirmative action is not "priviledge" for minorities, it's access for being kept out for many years. Affirmative action only guarantees access, not success. Not white does not mean not qualified.

The point is that you're correct in that capitalism and the racial caste system has victimized you, too. Here's an exerpt from Tim Wise's article, Collateral Damage: Poor Whites and the Unintended Consequences of Racial Privilege:

"Secondly, to be white and poor in a nation that is rooted in the notion of white domination and supremacy is to fail to live up to that society’s expectations; and to fail to live up to those expectations--which because of racial privilege are higher for whites than for others--is to render oneself vulnerable to a special kind of stigma. It is to be an exceptionally spectacular screw-up, which can lead one to not only be shunned by other whites, but to develop a crippling amount of self-doubt as well. In other words, it’s bad enough to be poor and black, but to be poor and white in a land where white folks are expected to excel is to forever brand oneself with a scarlet L, for loser. Here too, the system of white supremacy and privilege grants benefits on the one hand, but at the same time sets up many whites for a fall. It generates expectations by virtue of systemic racial stratification, which can be sustained for most, but which for some will fall flat, to their absolute detriment. To the extent the society provides substantial extra opportunity for whites to make it is a privilege to be sure; for those who fail however, the promise becomes an especially cruel hoax, precisely because of its magnitude." (www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-09/30wise.cfm)

Don't worry about freepers. Freepers will be just as angry. Nothing angers freepers more than a minority who's doing better than they are. I've met a few.

[TheDonkey]

49. Affirmative Action doesn't buy you a house or your tuition

I'm African-American and go to a state school and still pay out of the pockets getting some scholoarships to cover some (3.91 GPA mind you). My university is woefully inept in integrating their system and actively must court minorites more so than before.

Affirmative Action isn't a big ass check and a free ride by no means. Poor blacks, hispanics, and women still have the same problems all poor people do. But even middle class minorities can run into invisible blocks of discrimination to block them from achieving what they can.

[strategery blunder]

54. good point nt

[Hekate]

13. Makes sense but then who would the GOP have to kick around?

Weirdly enough, both parties have something invested in Affirmative Action, even though the Repubs keep trying to cripple and kill it.

If the focus was changed to economic class, as MLK was beginning to do before he was assassinated, first we would all have to admit that class really exists in the US.

The Dems are invested in the idea of "classic" ethnicity-based affirmative action and in the benefits that accrue to them from ethnic voting blocs, and the Repubs are invested in having the race card to play in energizing their electoral base. Race has always been useful to manipulate poor whites, because (1) there's competition for the same scarce resources, like jobs and schools, and (2) it gives them someone to believe they are better than even if they're only a paycheck away from disaster themselves.

Turning the debate to economic/social class would really change things, I think, but it would take courage and much energy to make that turn.

Quick edit: Yes, I still believe in the work I did on behalf of AA/EOE. We covered ethnicity, gender, age, disability -- the whole gamut. Thirty years ago, our county employees were almost entirely white and often related to each other, there was no need to openly recruit because employees could be counted on to let their friends and relatives know about job openings. By the time I left the commission, the employees looked a lot more like the actual residents of the county as it is today, and we had done a lot to educate department heads. But the climate is changing under W's admin, so who knows how it will be in 10 years?

Hekate
County Affirmative Action Commissioner
1989-2001

[Brewman_Jax]

14. If that solved the problem...

that would make sense, but it doesn't. In the 21th Century, there are still people who would not want me as a neighbor, I wouldn't get an interview if I had the wrong sounding name, and the list goes on.

Poor whites have been marginalized also in the racial caste system. Tim Wise notes in his article Collateral Damage: Poor Whites and the Unintended Consequences of Racial Privilege found at www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-09/30wise.cfm

[noiretextatique]

22. and the trend has been towards dismantling vs. expanding

because of the attacks on AA from the right. the racial divide and conquer strategy unfortunately still works too well.

[AmericanErrorist]

15. The Democrats haven't openly rejoined in Class Warfare yet*

Call me when they do and maybe we can talk.

*Except for Dennis Kucinich.

Five years ago when welfare was reformed, recipients were discouraged and even prevented from earning a higher degree. Since 1996, the City University of New York experienced annual declines in the number of students who were welfare recipients, from a high of 22,000 students in 1996 to only 5,000 welfare students in 2000. As soon as welfare reform passed, some recipients were even kicked out of school, some only a few months from graduation. What improved condition worthy of the name of reform would create barriers to a college degree?

Kucinich believes that Congress should allow and encourage people to obtain career training; work toward a college degree, GED, or other degree; or learn English. It should create exemptions from time limits so welfare recipients aren't prevented from earning a college degree. If an individual has a bachelor's degree, the average yearly wage is $30,730, nearly three times as much as the $11,432 that non-degree employees earn. A college degree translates to a living-wage job that allows people to live self-sufficiently and move from welfare programs for good.

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/education.php

[Mattforclark]

17. Because

there is still a component of racism. I wouldn't object to adding class consideration into the mix, but nixing any race consideration in AA and not doing anything else about the problem is not a good idea.

Ideally, we would have a more integrated policy to replace AA. Minority heavy schools being funded as well as suburban schools, and so on.

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. Do you mean income based?

Or have you another objective method of determining someone's class?

Would you use a points system (the poorer you/your parents are, to more you get), or a quota system?

[John BigBootay]

21. I have always supported this idea. n/t

[thingfish]

23. It's the only way.

x

[noiretextatique]

24. what makes you think THAT would work?

after a few years, some moderately wealthy individiual would file a lawsuit alleging income-based discrimination...then we'd be right back to square one. that's exactly what happened with race...forget about all the hundreds of years of discrimination favoring wealthy whites :eyes:

[tom_paine]

25. Not a bad idea, but I'm not sure that would be a good use of it

I need to think about it further.

[distortionmarshall]

28. only to the thoughtless.......

..... would it make sense.....

black folks have had a very specific history in america - a history shared in no substantial part by any other group..... affirmative action was an attempt to overcome the inertia brought on as a result of that history....

few people nowadays think of issues in terms of their historical context - yet another nail in the american education system's coffin, i suppose....

don't worry tho - white people have almost completely forgotten why affirmative action exists, and black folks, by and large being ill-educated, never knew... the only reason it hasn't been taken back yet is that (white) people are scared of "looking racist".... give it a few more years - i say 5 tops.....

lol - poor reverse-discriminated white folks... rofl

[noiretextatique]

41. a very specific history indeed

i have taken to collecting black memorbilia, mostly racist advertising. it's really amazing to see the extent to which these images of black people were used to sell just about every product imaginable. this advertising is really giving me yet another insight into that very specific history.

[formernaderite]

42. Okay, I agree...so why do hispanics receive affirmative action?

Other minorities such as Asians and Arabs do not receive affirmative action. I am in complete support of these programs, I'm just not clear why some groups are included and others are not. There are alot of brown skinned people who come here with nothing.

[sangh0]

45. AA is designed to remedy discrimination

Hispanics are discriminated against. And Asians and Arabs DO receive affirmative action. Please don't spread false information.

I'm just not clear why some groups are included and others are not

Groups are not included or excluded; Individuals are. AA is meant as a remedy to certain specific forms of discrimination, specifically, those that are illegal. If you have been a victim of illegal discrimination, then you are eligible for AA.

[formernaderite]

50. Okay, weird but Asian parents at my sons high school...

..are bitching that their kids get discriminated against because of affirmative action policies in college applications and scholarship money. Frankly, I've only heard of hispanic and black students receiving affirmative action in college applications. The school guidance counselor also posts specific scholarships for these two groups. I better look on the web for some policy issues on this, some of the parents of these kids are very low income and they could certainly use some help.

[sangh0]

53. You should read a book on AA

I have a suspicion that someone's parents aren't the best place to learn about a complicated program that has a complicated history.

Asians are *over* represented in colleges, so it seems kind of hard to argue that they are being discriminated against in college applications.

school guidance counselor also posts specific scholarships for these two groups.

That's not AA. Those are scholarships. You need to learn some facts about AA before you start making claims about it. Scholarships are NOT AA.

[TheDonkey]

55. Where do you live?

Affirmative Action does not work based on class or income.

If the college they are applying to has an asian population that is representational of the local area then it might be difficult to find incentives. But if the university needs to better inegrate then many universities offer the same programs to Asians as they do Native Americans, Latinos, AAs, etc.

Many times Asians have sucessfully integrated into college campuses (much like women have due to early affirmative aciton efforts). Once it's use is done then it's a non-issue much like how there are rarely many incentives to find women.

[TheDonkey]

46. So if I enter the middle class people won't discriminate against my race?

Bullshit.

Affirmative Action deals with racial and gender discrimination. Not class.

How do you expect the glass ceiling in the executive world to be fully torn down with a Income Affirmative Action.

Welfare Reform should deal with income problems, Affirmative Action is a pro-active policy to reduce the affects of racism and sexist discrimination.

As an African-American I don't feel I'm any less of a person because of AA? I realize that people in the country are very bigotted and I want people of all sexes and races to have an equal playing field.

[noiretextatique]

48. the only solution: fund all schools equally

that includes those in ALL poor neighborhoods. untill ALL children have the same start, from the beginning, the playing field will never be levelled. i also support free higher education for all those who want it...that is a solution to this AA issue.

[TheDonkey]

56. I agree somewhat.

We still need to monitor discrimination in the workforce. But if education and health care were equal and free it would do an incredible amount of good for ALL Americans!

[noiretextatique]

58. oh....i agree with that also, but the real problem won't be solved

until we stop perpetuating the underlying problem: poverty. and of course, poverty disproportionately impacts the very same groups who most suffer from racial discrimination...

[durutti]

61. No, it doesn't make sense.

The purpose of affirmative action is to provide compensation for minorities who are at a disadvantage because they live in a society built upon white supremacy. Making affirmative action "class-based" would do little to rectify racial inequalities.

It would make more sense to make affirmative both class *and* race-based.

[noiretextatique]

62. this makes sense: add class, but keep race eom

[Columbia]

63. How bout gender?