We're not a Democracy!!!

[Captain Absolut]

We are a Federal Republic, now get it right.

It's not majority rules, it's minority rights.

We have never elected a president, also get that right. The electoral college does that. We just "suggest" who they vote for.

All important civil or human issues in this country were decided by the courts or congress. This will also happen with the gay marriage, the people will never get to choose.

I believe gay marriage will be allowed because it follows in line with the rest of decisions in history. Slavery was ended, women were able to vote, and civil rights. All were progressive ideas decided by representatives or appointees.

Just remember the American Revolution was a minority revolution. Most people were either neutral or Tories.

PS...sorry for this being disjointed, it's a "relieving of frustration" post

[tom_paine]

1. Wrong. The Jacksonian Era transformed us into a Democratic Republic

http://uncpress.unc.edu/chapters/goebel_government.html

The 17th Amendment allowing direct election of Senators rather than selection by State Legislatures cemented it.

We are a Republic, undoubtedly, but with Strong small "d" democratic overtones.

I'm sorry if that offends you, but it is immutable reality.

I don't disagree with much of your post, but I do loathe the uncritical repetition of Bushevik Talking Points, either purposefully or inadvertantly.

[Captain Absolut]

2. Oh

I love our government. It won't get more perfect that this until someone figures out something better or humans become more enlightened.

[tom_paine]

5. You lost me

Anyway, Imperial Amerika stopped striving to be "a more perfect union" during the 12 years of Bush I (Raygun was a senile puppet with minimal power even in the first two years when he had a couple brain cells to rattle around), and now we are rushing headlong back to the time before the Enlightenment.

But I don't understand your point. In fact, you sound a bit forced and strained.

Don't hold back, pal...tell me what you REALLY THINK.

You know you want to....

[Captain Absolut]

20. Since you asked

I really want to Emperor for Life:evilgrin:

[tom_paine]

28. Well, EVERYONE wants to be THAT!

:evilgrin:

But everyone isn;t born into the Imperial family, now are they?

[x-g.o.p.er]

23. I thought we were a representative Republic

We directly vote for our local, state, and federal politicians (at least for the time being) and they, in turn, represent the people of their state or congressional district.

But those days are almost gone forever...

[tom_paine]

30. Really we're just quibbling over semantics

A Representative Republic is a Democratic Republic, really.

And, x, I have got to keep hoping that those days are NOT gone forever.

Don't give into despair, my friend. In spite of my rhetoric (and really, I don't think we have a better than 1 in 4 chance of succeeding), as long as there is the tiniest shred of hope, it keeps me remembering that the one unforgivable political sin this year for people who care is to stay on the sidelines.

[x-g.o.p.er]

33. But I like quibbling!!

And it's hard not to be discouraged, especially where I work. And I think if Diebold gets 4 more years to implement elctronic voting machines, it's all over but the "Arbeit macht Frei" signs over the re-education centers.

Maybe I'm being dramatic, but that's how I feel.

[tom_paine]

34. You are as dramatic as I am

So I am in the interesting position of playing Devil's Advocate against myself in many ways, since I feel and as you've seen I talk just like that.

It's good for balance and to help ward off the unpleasant side-effects of zealotry, such as becomin unable to see the other side of a position (provided that position is not Orwellian)

here goes:

1) Propaganda is like a narcotic in that the more it's used, the more desensitized the the subject becomes, the more must be used next time to fully "dose" the victim. I still maintain that, overall, Americans are good and decent people...the Bushes represent us no more than Comrade Putin represents the Russian People (think how lucky we are compared to THOSE bastards). Even after the October Surprise or perhaps the double whammy (Reagan dies in well-timed fashion AND the well-timed capture of Bin Laden), people are beginning to get more suspicious. And if just one more key Democrat dies in a plane crash in a hotly contested election...well, let's just say "Kremlinology" is an accurate description for the study of the goings-on of the Bush Imperial Palace.

My point being, people are beginning to see through this. If they try to steal 2004...and they may have to block and stuff A LOT of votes...people will know.

2) It is possible that the system is not as degraded as we think. It is possible that the system, given it's incredible resistance in the face of a two decades long multi-pronged onslaught, can even bounce back. Look at how the system has feebly come to life. Admittedly, it is a bit green around the gills and nothing much has happened yet, but stay tuned. The future is not yet written.

Stay cool at work. Be smart. Work for Kerry. Write a Letter to the Editor (write it to an out of town paper if you are nervous about repercussions). Donate your time. Hell, donate your uniform. It'd be nice to see a fellow in uniform, doing door-to-door for Kerry (although perhaps that's some infraction. It shouldn't be, you've earned the right to do anything which doesn't bring discredit to the service in the uniform...and I cannot believe that anyone would think that working for a candidate in an Election negative at all...I can't believe the service has fallen that far since I left).

[x-g.o.p.er]

36. I find by using dramatic examples...

I get people's attention (albeit I am generally viewed as a loony-bird), but as I start to explain how things were, how they are today, and where we can end up if we keep going on the current path, I get some fairly astonished looks. Most people say that "that could never happen in the US", but they don't disagree with what I say.

So it could happen.

[tom_paine]

38. Dude, you and I are birds of a feather on this issue

You have accurately described my reason for the rhetoric I use.

And I, too, have awakened several people using both "overheated rhetoric" and also simply (but politely) pointing out how much they don't know about what's going on and how the heck can a person watch the "news" every night and still not know anythign about what is going on, other than with Janet's boob or Laci Peterson.

One person at a time.

I do miss the days when I was safe withing my own naivete and I said somewhat frequently "It could never happen here due to our national diversity of race, poltiics, religion..."

That was folly and completely wrong. But I miss the days of being able to say it and believe it.

Now I think more like Karl Jaspers, a German Psychiatrist who lived during the Rise of the Nazis:

"All over the world I dread the self-deception which we have experienced - that this could not happen here. It can happen anywhere. It is improbable only where the broad masses of the population are aware of the possible menace and thus will not be lulled into security; where they know the type of totalitarianism and will recognize it in its rudimentary stages and in each of its manifestations - this Proteus who keeps appearing in ever new masks, who slips eel-like out of our grasp, who does the opposite of what he says, who distorts the meaning of words, who speaks not in order to communicate or tell the truth, but in order to numb, to distract, to hypnotize, to intimidate, to dupe - who will exploit and evoke every fear, and will promise security and utterly wreck it at the same time."
--Karl Jaspers

http://whitecloud.com/fight_vs_totalitarianism.htm

(check out this essay I found--I'd read this quote many times, but never the essay that surrounded it-- WOW!

[x-g.o.p.er]

39. What a powerful essay by Jaspers

I was struck by this passage, along with others...because it describes the conflict I am undergoing internally.

"Loyalty to country is blurred while being noisily called for. Am I loyal to my country if I stay loyal to its political rulers when they turn criminal? Or is it loyal, rather, to want such regimes overthrown even by foreign powers, giving my country a chance to save its soul?"

Also, paragraphs 7-9 describe what is going on today in this country to a T.

Tom, thanks again for the essay.

[HootieMcBoob]

31. "I thought we were autonomous collective."

Man: (mad) You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship! A
self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
Woman: There you go, bringing class into it again...
Man: That's what it's all about! If only people would--
Arthur: Please, *please*, good people, I am in haste! WHO lives in that
castle?
Woman: No one lives there.
Arthur: Then who is your lord?
Woman: We don't have a lord!
Arthur: (spurised) What??
Man: I *told* you! We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We're taking
turns to act as a sort of executive-officer-for-the-week--
Arthur: (uninterested) Yes...
Man: But all the decisions *of* that officer 'ave to be ratified at a
special bi-weekly meeting--
Arthur: (perturbed) Yes I see!
Man: By a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs--
Arthur: (mad) Be quiet!
Man: But by a two-thirds majority, in the case of more major--
Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET! I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman: "Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why
I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man: Aha! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent
in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) Bloody PEASANT!
Man: Oh, what a giveaway! Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? That's
what I'm all about! Did you see 'im repressing me? You saw it,
didn't you?!

Sorry...I couldn't help myself :silly:

[tom_paine]

35. LOL It's just a bunny rabbit! 'Ere! Go ahead and chop it's head off!

[x-g.o.p.er]

37. Fetchest thou the holy hand grenade of Antioch!!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. The Soviet Union was a Federal Republic

I wouldn't brag about it ... the fact is we are a Democratic Republic.

"The electoral college does that. We just "suggest" who they vote for."

False. Many, if not most, states require the elector to vote a certain way. They don't just get to decide to vote for whoever they want.

"All important civil or human issues in this country were decided by the courts or congress. This will also happen with the gay marriage, the people will never get to choose. I believe gay marriage will be allowed because it follows in line with the rest of decisions in history. Slavery was ended, women were able to vote, and civil rights. All were progressive ideas decided by representatives or appointees."

EVERY one of those issues won BECAUSE of democratic pressure.

[Captain Absolut]

7. Well

The actual term is Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

[tom_paine]

8. Yeah, you know...a Democratic-Republic

Even the CIA got it right!

[Captain Absolut]

10. ok ok

my point was, thought not stated clearly on my part, that gay marriage will not be decided by the people.

[tom_paine]

13. That's true

No argument here. Even a Constitutional Amendment is decided not by a vote of the people but by a vote of State Legislatures.

http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/constitution/amendment_process.html

But I'm not really sure I would want a 100% Direct Democracy.

[Captain Absolut]

16. of course not

With the internet we could have it with people voting on every issue, but not everyone would have a grasp on every issue. Hell, our reps probably don't have a full grasp on every issue.

[tom_paine]

27. Internet Voting is hideously insecure

Such a voting system would be invalid from it's inception.

[mojowork_n]

4. Independent New Zealand commission thinks so, too

This is a story about "electronic voting", on today's CD.org:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm

Excerpts:

Wherever Diebold and ES&S go, irregularities and historic Republican upsets follow. Alastair Thompson, writing for scoop.co of New Zealand, explored whether or not the 2002 U.S. mid-term elections were “fixed by electronic voting machines supplied by Republican-affiliated companies.” The scoop investigation concluded that: “The state where the biggest upset occurred, Georgia, is also the state that ran its election with the most electronic voting machines.” Those machines were supplied by Diebold.

Wired News reported that “. . . a former worker in Diebold’s Georgia warehouse says the company installed patches on its machine before the state’s 2002 gubernatorial election that were never certified by independent testing authorities or cleared with Georgia election officials.” Questions were raised in Texas when three Republican candidates in Comal County each received exactly the same number of votes – 18,181.

Following the 2003 California election, an audit of the company revealed that Diebold Election Systems voting machines installed uncertified software in all 17 counties using its equipment.

Former CIA Station Chief John Stockwell writes that one of the favorite tactics of the CIA during the Reagan-Bush administration in the 1980s was to control countries by manipulating the election process. “CIA apologists leap up and say, ‘Well, most of these things are not so bloody.’ And that’s true. You’re giving politicians some money so he’ll throw his party in this direction or that one, or make false speeches on your behalf, or something like that. It may be non-violent, but it’s still illegal intervention in other country’s affairs, raising the question of whether or not we’re going to have a world in which laws, rules of behavior are respected,” Stockwell wrote. Documents illustrate that the Reagan and Bush administration supported computer manipulation in both Noriega’s rise to power in Panama and in Marcos’ attempt to retain power in the Philippines.

[ulysses]

6. and what's a republic?

(all in unison, now...)

A representative democracy!

[Heritic]

9. Gee

I thought we were a plutocracy (wealth is the principle basis of power).

[Captain Absolut]

11. only if

you want to be picky about it:smoke:

[tom_paine]

12. Well that's what we ARE NOW, but a Democratic-Republic is what we were

and what we are supposed to be.

But good point. You are technically correct.

Though I would add an Orwellian Plutocracy given the now-constant and consistent usew of psychomanipulation and Orwellian lies (not to emntion history-erasing) that is used by the Imperial Family, their Stooges, and their Goebbels v2.0 propaganda network.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Welcome to Heritic and Captain Absolut!

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Repub vs. Democracy

"The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49<%>. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable."

More here: http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm

[Heritic]

17. I heard something scary today

This one repuke who I know said he wanted Bush to be President forever... (shivers uncontrollably)

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. That is pretty scary

Of course, we know Bush wants that too, so make that two votes for Bush as supreme dictator for life.

[Captain Absolut]

19. HA

You could probably get a few thousand...even scarier

[Heritic]

21. Now you've gone and done it

You've doubted our leader! You anti-American non-Patriot!! (jk, of course)

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. Psh! Non-patriot?! I woulda tossed the tea in the harbor, whereas

$hrub would have just attempted an hostile takeover of the East India company. And failed, of course. *lol*

[tom_paine]

29. Tell him he'd be happier in Commie China

Perhaps Syria. Both those places have "Leaders for Life"

Why does he hate America so much?

[RainDog]

22. why should anyone other than gays decide if they can marry or not?

since when is it the business of govt to tell people who they are allowed to have a monogamous relationship with?

...I realize that govt has made it their biz, but only because of pressure from a small minority who have undue influence in this country....The Religious Right.

btw, I just finished reading The Yurica Report about the Dominionists, and everyone in this country who does not want to be a theocracy with old testament laws, and pre-Constitution forms of govt, should make sure that they work overtime to oust any religious right Representative currently serving, because they, without a doubt, see that this next election is their time to make their move...beyond what they are already doing right now.

In other words, we have one election left to remove the Totalitarian Theocrats from power.

If they win by whatever means, better make sure, if you're a homosexual, that you know how to defend your life, because they think you should be killed, simply because of who you are.

Same goes for a whole list of people.

If they win, we are looking at a civil war, I am convinced.

I KNOW this sounds crazy, but if you read what THEY say...unless you are willing to acquiesce to their agenda, you can kiss the Constitution goodbye.

If you are not willing to fight, make sure you have other arrangements to get out of here while you can, and also make arrangements to support those who will not allow Theocrats to overthrow democracy...more than they already have...

but we're not yet in to the worst of it from them.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

"Moses Law For Modern Government: The Intellectual and Sociological Origins of the Christian Reconstructionist Movement"

http://capo.org/premise/95/may/ssha2.html

[RainDog]

26. notable quote

from the Yurica Report-

 
Dominionism is a natural if unintended extension of Social Darwinism and is frequently called “Christian Reconstructionism.” Its doctrines are shocking to ordinary Christian believers and to most Americans. Journalist Frederick Clarkson, who has written extensively on the subject, warned in 1994 that Dominionism “seeks to replace democracy with a theocratic elite that would govern by imposing their interpretation of ‘Biblical Law.’” He described the ulterior motive of Dominionism is to eliminate “…labor unions, civil rights laws, and public schools.” Clarkson then describes the creation of new classes of citizens:
 

 

“Women would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed. So severe is this theocracy that it would extend capital punishment blasphemy, heresy, adultery, and homosexuality.”<10>

 
 
Today, Dominionists hide their agenda and have resorted to stealth; one investigator who has engaged in internet exchanges with people who identify themselves as religious conservatives said, “They cut and run if I mention the word ‘Dominionism.’”<11>  Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University wrote, “In March 1986, I was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus titled, “How to Participate in a Political Party.” It read:

 
 

“Rule the world for God.
“Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.
“Hide your strength.
“Don’t flaunt your Christianity.
“Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.”<12>

 
 
Dominionists have gained extensive control of the Republican Party and the apparatus of government throughout the United States; they continue to operate secretly. Their agenda to undermine all government social programs that assist the poor, the sick, and the elderly is ingeniously disguised under false labels that confuse voters. Nevertheless, as we shall see, Dominionism maintains the necessity of laissez-faire economics, requiring that people “look to God and not to government for help.”<13>
 

[camero]

25. So what you're saying

Is that the government rules us as an overlord instead of the government ruling by the consent of the people. And the tone of your post suggest that you like it this way, eh?

[Mr.Green93]

32. but we will be