"Passion shows the suffering that god went through".

[Robin Hood]

That's what a young twenty something Christian said after viewing Mel Gibsons Passion of Christ. This was just on MSNBC. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that Christ was the son of God and not God him self.

Is this the level of understanding of the life of Christ that modern day Christians have? Is this movie further distorting the truth about the political life of Christ?

[LARED]

1. Trinity

trinity

\Trin"i*ty\, n. , L. trinitas, fr. trini three each. See Trinal.] 1. (Christian Theol.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

16. Yeah,Road Warrior,Mad Max,and the Lethal Weapon series

are great family fare.

[leftchick]

18. and a...

fucking lunatic

[wellstone_democrat]

23. Great Catholic?

I think not. Read his comments on the Pope and the Church in the 20th century. Gibson is part of a regressive movement that does not support or follow church teachings. Ergo, he is by definition a "bad Catholic"

As for family man: I have no idea. I'm not his wife nor am I one of his children.

[Tinoire]

28. They support & follow Church teaching. They have a theological

difference which is mostly about which version of the mass to use and don't like the relaxation of the rules allowing who can handle the Blessed Sacrament. They are still part of the Church, not schismatics and not excommunicated. They are also very, very respectful of this Pope.

Traditionalists not schismatics.

[LeahMira]

33. Respectful of this pope?

http://www.flatlandbooks.com/gibson.html

(1978) Mel "Braveheart" Gibson's dad, Hutton, has a
bone to pick with the Catholic Church, and its recent
line of false Popes. (See listing for Hutton's other
book, "The Enemy is Here!") In this book he focuses
on Paul VI as the anti-pope who has softened the
Church's intolerance of heretics. Heretics are
everyone who has heard Catholic teachings but didn't
sign on. They are all going to hell, the traditionalists
say. Maybe not, said Paul VI. You're the Anti-Christ,
says Gibson. "The object of our war is victory. It is no
game to win or lose. Shirked wars are irretrievably
lost. Limited wars end like Korea or Vietnam.
Compromise equals treachery, which requires neither
intent nor even consciousness on the part of the
traitor. More often it grows out of 'normal' mistaken
attitudes developed in the modernist climate fostered
by subversives. Treachery, then, is not necessarily
subjective, overt, or culpable; it remains treachery,
nevertheless, in fact." Gibson doesn't like the
changes he sees in the Church at all, especially its
drift into "liberation theology" communism.

[Tinoire]

48. Paul VI hasn't been Pope since '78. He's as dead as a door-knob

thus does not qualify as "this Pope".

John Paul II, the current pope, is pretty much of a traditionalist himself and is two Popes after Paul VI.

[greatauntoftriplets]

27. He is a traditionalist Catholic.

Do you also reject Vatican II?

[Tinoire]

32. They're not schismatics. I looked into them. There's too much

media-hype in all of this. None of the priests nor the traditionalist faithful from Holy Family have been excommunicated.

Many of the churches run by Jesuits, Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmelites, often say the Tridentine mass and are considered traditionalist.

Gibson was interviewed on EWTN by Raymond Arroya twice this year & the people at EWTN, official Catholic TV, are sticklers for that sort of thing. It wasn't even deemed worthy of discussion, wasn't even mentioned.

[Skittles]

46. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Mel Gibson is a homophobic piece of SHIT.

[Sgt. Peppers]

13. Good answer.

I believe and that is all that matters.

[OneBlueSky]

2. Jesus was indeed the son of God . . .

but so are you, and so am I, and so is every human who ever lived . . . he just fulfilled the role better than most of us manage to . . . set the standard, if you will . . .

[DemBones DemBones]

5. What you are saying is not the

traditional view of Jesus, though.

Traditional Christians would say that we are all God's children, but God the Father was literally the father of Mary's son, Jesus.

[regnaD kciN]

7. "Literally," no...

Christianity doesn't teach that Jesus has 1/2 God's DNA. "Only-begotten Son" means that Jesus was close to God, contained that divinity within him, in a way we don't. Jesus was God's "only-begotten" Son, while the rest of us are only sons and daughters by adoption.

[SerpentX]

14. Check your Bible.

... the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God
-- Luke 3:38

Doesn't say "adopted son of God" any more than Seth was the "adopted son of Adam".

[Bandit]

34. So did God have a child outside of marriage

What about the sanctity of marriage? I guess marriage is just a triviality to God.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Literally, yes. Jesus is literally God's son and has

no earthly father. Mary was a virgin when she conceived and a virgin when she gave birth. I've checked out a lot of Christian churches and that's not a doctrine that varies much. In my experience, that's the belief of Baptists, Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians. They disagree over other things, but not about the relationship of Jesus to the Father.

[Indiana Democrat]

3. Christ is God, God is Christ.

They are one in the same.

[Sgt. Peppers]

15. Hey Indy Dem, hello from Bedford :)

Peace

[Indiana Democrat]

43. Home of Damon Bailey!!

Oh how I wish he would have turned-out to be as good as we thought he was going to be when Coach Knight went to see him in Middle School!!

Still...He was pretty darned good!

[JitterbugPerfume]

45. HI...

my sister lives in Bedford ! I am in NE Indiana

She is a DEMOCRAT

[Indiana Democrat]

51. Fort Wayne?

[annagull]

4. Oh you betcha

Most of the movie is based on the ravings of a nun in the 1880's who was a screaming antisemite. What else will Mel draw on, family historry??

[HydroAddict]

8. Hehe...

The Gospels, According to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Mel.

[VOX]

9. The Christian mythology has it that Christ is God made flesh...

and therefore able to inhabit the physical world. Part of this manifestation is for the God-made-flesh to be sacrificed (with blood), so as to become a conduit for all human sins. Thus his death represents a purifying act for all mankind. A kind of proxy, if you will.

It's all rather abstract, and not a particularly simple concept.

[reprobate]

37. It's fascinating that this is not original to christianity.

There were at least a dozen other 'christ' figures before Paul invented christianity and borrowed from many of them. It goes all the way back to the neolithic and according to Campbell has to do with the life cycle of plants, notably wheat (the staff of life) which is born, grows, is sacrificed (eaten), is buried, and rises again to fulfill us once more.

It would be educational to have known the man jesus, stripped of the trappings of messiah. Must have been a great teacher, and a true liberal.

BTW, I love your cat sig.

[Walt Starr]

10. The statement is true if you buy into Christian Mythology

It's just so much huey to me, though.

[devinsgram]

11. Totally agree, nothing but a myth.

[JHB]

12. Go rent "Last Temptation"

Much better job of it. Oh, wait, that had sex, not violence, so it had to be boycotted by the very people it would speak the most to.

[JCMach1]

17. Nah, read the book!

The most humane (read humanist) portrayal of Christ ever written.

Kazantzakis is brilliant.

[0007]

21. Yes indeed Nikos Kazantzakis is brilliant

I have no desire to see this latest film, but probably out of curiosity I may?

[molly]

20. I thought this was a POLITICAL website - not a haven

for thumpers.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

24. Ok,I'll try again

Who is doing the thumping in this post? Did you even read it? And did you even notice the quotes around the subject heading?

[Stuckinthebush]

25. The early church had to figure out a way to explain that

so they came up with the concept of the trinity.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one and separate at the same time.

[oneighty]

41. Also

we ignorant unwashed masses were not satisfied with one God so we are given at least three, then the powers that were and be throw in a few saints now and then so we pray to them too. And soon there is a God for every human activity-just as God intended.

180

[Az]

26. The nature of the relationship with god

is one of the most argued issues in the bible. It has been the cause of the rift in the early church and continues to define the various sects to different degrees. Each sect focusing on a different aspect of the triune in varying ways.

Unfortunately for the modern status of the triune it is not directly refered to in the bible. In fact Jesus even refers to god as a seperate entity whose descisions are unknown to him. The concept of trinity was a later invention of the church. The debate raged within the ranks of the clergy for a time until it was definitively pronounced that Jesus was one with god. There were individuals that would not go along with this interpretation (Arius) and were excommunicated. This was the origin of the Unitarian sect. Those that believe that Jesus and God were seperate individuals and that God was one individual unto himself.

Here are some verses that cast doubt on the trinity theory.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I


Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And of course the question posed by this most famous of last words

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Incidently one would figure that the last words of the divine presense of god on earth would be accurately recorded by his followers. Yet of the 3 gospels that speak of this moment none agree on the final words of Jesus on the cross.

[Mari333]

29. a local pastor here (who hates gay folks) is touting this movie

and he really detests me , because I have written letters denouncing his stance on gay people and pointing out his hypocrisy when he uses the bible with one hand to cite scripture, and then ignores the bible passages that he chooses to not follow himself. I dont know why the paper insists he be the only pastor in town to relegate biblical interpretation, and I am going to keep a keen eye out for hate crimes in the area that may result against a large pop of Jewish people here, we even have a temple here and a Jewish kids summer camp
His flock are weird, and the methodist pastor in town told me, "we have a lot of cult type churches in the area". I like the pastor, hes well read and absolutely anti war and an activist. We get along well, and he doesnt give a hoot that Im a Shintoist this week..last week I was a buddhist, but that was ended after I killed the buddha on the road....=) Its fun to change labels weekly.

[reprobate]

38. Mari, I love it. Can I be a serial believer also?

That way nobody could pin me down.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

30. I am reading a new book called "Beyond Belief" by Elaine Pagels

I am only into the second chapter, but that is part of the subject of the book - how there were other gospels and beliefs in the early days of Christianity that were suppressed. The authors says there was a gospel of Thomas -- it said the divine is in everyone, but this gospel got suppressed in favor of the gospel of John, which said that the divine existed only in Jesus, so they didn't all believe that Jesus was literally the son of God at first.

[Az]

31. The filter of Christian history

is one of the most intense purges of documents ever. There were countless varieties of xian sects in the early days. The internal conflict between them was huge. Some of their practices were less than acceptable by todays standards. Some may shock modern followers of the surviving sects (remember what you are doing when you take the Sacriment).

Over time all traces of the other sects were purged. Documents destroyed. Other documents editted. This is the trail we are left with. One designed by the survivor.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

36. And it would seem the more authoritarian, non-thinking beliefs

were brought to the fore and the more equalitarian beliefs that allowed people to question were suppressed. The book blurb says the ancient debates were over whether Christianity is a collection of doctrines or more of a spiritual inquiry and says that now people are debating this again.

[reprobate]

40. And their worst attrocity was the burning of the library at Alexandria.

All the history and science from all the past generations gone in one mad day. What a waste.

[Forkboy]

42. hear hear

:thumbsup:

[Az]

44. That is still

My personal measure of the danger that zealous religion represents. The burning of the Library marks the beginning of the Dark Ages. It represents the fall of reason and the rise of dogma. It is estimated that if the Library had survived we would have entered the industrial revolution 1500 years earlier.

[reprobate]

39. CJ, the gospel of thomas was translated in the last few years.

I'm pretty sure it's available online. Google it and you'll probably find the translation.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

49. Thank you! I have only been vaguely

aware of this history, the suppressed gospels and the library. It's always like we're going backwards, but we still get forwards somehow too.

[starroute]

47. Gospel of Thomas online

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

[randr]

35. I have no inclination to see the movie

I never quite understand why these people see the death of the Christ as an example or proof of "God" suffering for us. The man, Jesus, was one of tens of thousands of martyrs put to death by a cruel Empire. The accounts of all of this were not even written down until many years after the event by people that may not have even been present. My guess is that the depiction is probably accurate in that most people alive back then were more than likely witness to the procession of death that is the hallmark of the Roman Empire.
I also never understand how people can learn of this mans' suffering and fail to recognize that the horrors of his death continue to this day.
Could it be that some people have no connection to their inner empathy or compassion for all of humanity unless shocked by the suffering of a beloved one?
The execution of this man can only be seen as a senseless act of authority out of control. The lesson should be that we do all we can to put an end to the obscene madness of empire and the leaders who would take us there.

[Robin Hood]

50. Well done.

Great post.