Why does it seem more importance is placed on Jesus, than God?

[bhunt70]

I don't know how to explain this any more than that sentence above. It seems to me that the teachings of jesus, the life of jesus, etc are more important at least in america, than the actual concept of God.

[osaMABUSh]

1. you got that right - Jesus is all you hear about from Christians

I guess that's why they are called Christians.

But in other religions is God placed above their savior or 'prophet'?

[damnyankee2601]

25. Not quite.

Jesus is all you hear from fundies. If you insist on putting all Christians in the fundie box, you are missing out on some good freinds.

[progressiverealist]

47. damn near all Christian churches ARE fundie or else are heading that way.

Notice I did not say all.

[TrogL]

2. Because fundie churches don't understand the Trinity

Jesus is God.
God is Jesus.

http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

[xchrom]

5. nail on the head

[skypilot]

8. Forgive my ignorance...

..but right here seems to be a good place to ask this question. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus. How can Jesus be Jewish--or anything else? Is God Jewish?

[damnyankee2601]

23. You need some Gnostic Gospels.

There were 5 books stricken from the new testament by Emperor Justinian of the Byzantine Empire. They are generally considered to be the direct quotations of Jesus of Nazareth, and teach that everyone can achive godliness by leading a holy life because we are all connected to God. (This is Gnosticism, much like Buddhism, and is still practiced by Coptic Christians in Egypt who are generally considered to be the closest thing to the original 1st generation Christians.)

Once you get your head around the concept, it's pretty easy to see that everbody is worshiping different faces of the same God, and for Christians that spark of godliness is called The Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, there are a lot of weak minded individuals who just can't get their heads around it, so they retreat to the absolutism of dogma. These are called fundamentalists in any religion, and they work for Satan but don't know it.

Read more here: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

[skypilot]

33. thank you.

*

[damnyankee2601]

39. Glad to help.

Love your signature quote.

[damnyankee2601]

15. Bingo.

Thanks for a succinct answer.

[Az]

16. Which makes

Some of his conversations with himself a bit confusing.

[speaktome]

22. Jesus gave God a face!

Hebrews 1:3 "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being"... Remember the verse about God being an allconsuming fire? You can't look upon Him and live. This story helped me understand a little better.

Imagine a colony of ants. The worker ants are out scavenging for food fit for a queen. Imagine yourself above the ants as an "ant loving" human who would rather have the entire colony move into your personally designed ant farm. You see the trail of ants on its quest heading directly for the ant bait, which is destined to return to the nest and ultimately the queen, causing death and destruction to the entire colony. But you know a better way…a way that they can be saved from death and destruction. But how are you going to communicate that to them? You are so much larger. You speak a different language. There is no way for you to come down to their level and redirect them to your ant farm. But, you come upon an idea…"What if I was to become an ant? Then I would be able to relate to the ants, communicate with the ants, and warn the ants of the impending disaster ahead. I could tell them that I have a better way that leads them from death unto life…and all they have to do is believe in my plan, follow me, and turn from their former path!"

In essence, this is what God did in sending His son, Jesus Christ, to come into our lives, knock on the door of our hearts, lead us from the path of destruction, and point us towards the path of life.

This is my first post...be kind y'all. :scared:

[Az]

24. Interesting but

God does in fact appear and communicate with people in the OT on a regular basis. In fact a booming voice telling people what he really meant would probably have made a bigger impression than some guy in robes reaching a limited audience.

[camero]

26. Welcome to DU

Not a bad post. I think it's a good one. And spot on.

[damnyankee2601]

31. So did Buddha, Confucius, and Mohammed

The problem is that everybody was too busy looking at the faces to listen to the words.

[Tims]

43. A very Christian reply

but God never seemed to have any trouble before communicating directly with His people. The old testament is full of scenes where God talks to His people and to his prophets. God even speaks to His people and specifically instructs them that they need no saviour but He and that they should direct their prayers directly to Him, not through others.

The whole concept of the necessity of a Man/God saviour comes from the belief that God is so pure and so perfect that He cannot communicate directly with His imperfect creation -Man-, lest He become corrupted Himself. This is a concept that arose mostly outside of Judaism, though many Jewish sects before the first century were going overboard on the this whole perfection thing and were beginning to be influenced by the beliefs of other saviour based religions common at the time.

The most widely practiced saviour religion was Mithraism from which the early Christians drew much of their symbology, ritual and language. Mithra was both man and god and acted as an intercessor to God on behalf of Man. The same scenario is played out in origins of Jesus as saviour (as apposed to a messiah who would lead the Jews back to power and assume the throne of David in a new Israel). Unfortunately, Jewish belief forbids the concept of any but one God or the idea that God could become flesh. This is somewhat addresses by the concept of the trinity where you still have only one God, but manifest in three forms (some protestant groups do not embrace the concept of the trinity), but nowhere in the bible is this idea brought forth, it is simply an invention of the church which came about during the third or fourth century.

If one examines the New Testament with an open mind, it is easy to read between the lines see the conflict between the Jewish founders of Christianity who were expecting a messiah and the gentile founders who were seeking a saviour. We end up with a curious mix in the final portrait that is painted of Jesus.

[mr_hat]

3. And what about the Holy Ghost? Man, talk about yer short shrift.

[dawgman]

4. Because Jesus as a human taught us a few simple philosophies of

how to live in peace with those around us.

[Malva Zebrina]

40. so did a whole lot of others before him

6. where to start?

because Jesus is supposed to be "god incarnate" as opposed to being an abstraction

because Christianity comes from the New Testament, not the Old.

because a historical figure Jesus might actually have existed

because his message is more centered on love than punishment (not that the way religions manifest this makes this particularly evident)

***
I'm sure others have more to say

[meegbear]

11. exactly

The Old Testament always had God as an entity, not in a human tangable form.

[TacticalPeek]

7. Easier to hog-tie.

God's a tough SOB, Creator of the Universe, etc.

[Trajan]

9. If one accepts the notion of a tripartite deity ...

Then Jesus <> God <> Holy Ghost ...

Twas 'God" that expired on the 'cross' ... NOT just Jesus ...

A greater question in my mind is: "HOW can god die? " ... IF: Jesus = God .. AND God = omnipresent ... then Jesus/god CANNOT have died ...

One of the reasons I gave up christianity for atheism ... It is a wholly inconsistent formal system ...

[damnyankee2601]

13. Atheism is just as bankrupt.

You threw out the baby with the bath water.

Religion is about symbolic myth that helps you understand the human condition and make moral decisions. Any absolutist dogma (atheism included) misses this point and focuses on the legalistic details, which by definition are going to be contradictory because of the duality of Man.

[Trajan]

17. Define the absolutism promoted by atheism ..

Atheism in itself says ONE thing, and one thing alone: ... There is no susbtantive basis for god belief ...

EXPLAIN the 'Bankruptcy' of atheism ...

EXPLAIN the 'Absolutism' of atheism ...

[damnyankee2601]

29. ... There is no susbtantive basis for god belief ...

Only within the confines of your belief system. "You have said so."

[Trajan]

62. According to atheists ...

There is no substantive basis for god belief ...

Tell you what: ... Paris is a city in France, and France is a nation within Western Europe ... Western Europe is a part of the 'European Contintent', which is one of the seven continents on this wonderful and awful earth ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in an earth ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in earthly continents ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in Europe ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in Western Europe ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in France ...

There is a substantive basis for belief in Paris ...

EACH can be touched, measured, tasted, seen, heard, smelt ... and shared ...

EACH has an overwhelming amount of empirical evidence that supports a reasonable belief in their existence ...

Now: .. Let's ask these same questions of an all-powerful, all-knowing and 'ever-present' god ...

What DIRECT empirical evidence, a posteriori evidence, of an 'omnipresent' god exists ? ... What evidence of such a god is measurable ? ... can it be touched, smelt, seen, heard or tasted ??? ..

I am 'all ears' here ... You have a chance to correct my poor perception: ... Tell me of your 'real' god, and remind me of the substantive basis for god belief ...

I am open to any and all gods that can be shown to truly exist ...

ESPECIALLY omnipresent gods that dont actually appear to be present ...

[arcane1]

18. atheism is dogma now?

funny, all my life it's been about the complete lack of dogma..

my how times change...

[damnyankee2601]

28. Any rigid belief system that excludes...

... ideas incompatible with itself is dogma.

[Az]

32. Atheism does not exclude

Sorry but many are misinformed on this issue. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god or gods. Taken from the word theist, a person that believes in god or gods and combined with the prefix 'a' meaning without. Simply put: Without a belief in god or gods.

Please talk to the atheist before you place them in a jar and label them. You may find out they have an open mind. I for example do not exclude the possibility of god or gods. I simply see no evidence at this time to warrant acceptance of the claim for god. As such I do not believe in god or gods.

[damnyankee2601]

37. That makes you an Agnostic in my world.

But that's just semantics.

I'm sorry you see no evidence of God. Please keep looking. I think you're missing some cool stuff.

[Az]

46. And I too

Think you are missing some cool stuff. For in unweaving the rainbow you discover even more beauty deep within. Discerning the complex weave of the world around us does not diminish its beauty. People complained that when Newton discovered the composition of the rainbow he had unwoven it and detroyed its beauty. But the rainbow is as beautiful as ever and our journey into the nature of light has brought us treasures that were beyond imagination.

We can travel this world together you and I with our differing beliefs. We can even share in many of the joys found there in. We both can hope that the other finds their way through to the truth in the end. But as I am sure you agree we cannot force each other to see the world as we see it.

[arcane1]

59. ah, ok, that clears it up

I thought you were talking about atheism at first. I was mistaken

[Az]

30. Wow

Please inform me of what my dogma is. I seem to have lost it.

There are all manner of philosophical constructs that include an atheistic stance within them. But this by no means makes atheism in any way a philosophy or a dogma (let alone absolute). I have known atheists that believed we were all manner of fanciful thing.

Look, the only thing you know when someone tells you they are an atheist is that for whatever reason they do not have a belief in god. You will have to talk to them a bit more to find out if they are a loon or not.

[damnyankee2601]

35. Fair enough.

But in my experience, those with flexible thought processes call themselves "agnostic" or "Diest." By the time they declare themselves as Atheist, they seem to have locked into a rigid anti-religion POV. You will note that only avowed Atheists attack Diests (like myself) with the same vitriol that we ususlly get from fundies.

Don't step in the dogma, you'll never get it off your shoes :-)

[Tims]

57. I would never

call myself either an agnostic or a deist. I am an atheist, plane a simple and I am so not because I closed my mind to the possibility of God. I simply have never seen either evidence for God or a good argument that such evidence could even exist (please define God in a testable manner). At what point do you give up on the possibility that Santa and the Easter Bunny are real.

You clearly believe that only those who believe as you do are capable of flexible thought processes. Even as an atheist I give the benefit of the doubt to even the most fundamental religious believers in their ability to think.

I am not anti-religion, in fact I spend quite a bit of time studying the subject since it is such a major factor in human relations. To ignore religion or to condemn it outright is counterproductive. One should not make the decision to become an atheist lightly or do so simply out of hostility to religion, though many do.

Be careful who you accuse of attacking your deism and be sure they are not simply attacking you.

[Az]

34. Symoblic myth

Is certainly a valid utilitarian approach to religion. In fact it is probably the foundation upon which most religions were initiated. The more fundimental monotheistic sects though have placed increasing emphasis on the dogmatic truth of the stories and thus lose many potential students in its weave of concepts.

Of course once you open the door to realizing that the wisdom contained within a religion is in many ways valid even when removd from the context of absolute factuality you see that any surviving religion or philosophy can bring insite and wisdom if you take the time to examine it (that was quite a sentence, probably should have dropped a period in there someone or other, geez I just can't stop this one .... focus). Thus the adherance to one set of philosophical contructs over another becomes foolish and the real prize becomes one's own journey of discovery amongst the wisdom contained within the world.

[damnyankee2601]

36. I concur... mostly.

The point where we part is the importance of the world. Certainly the world should be your classroom, but it should not be your purpose.

[Az]

49. Purpose

There is no purpose other than what you make of it. This may sit at the crux of the dilema. Discerning whether there is a purpose or intent to the universe. Some would say that there is and attempt to discern it through all manner of interpretation. Others accept the universe as it is and find their own sense of it.

[LiberalFighter]

10. I realized that a few months ago too

It would seem to violate the 1st commandment. Thou shall have no other gods before me.

And the way I see it... it is not more importance than god but Jesus is the only god the way they preach even though it is not out in front.

[damnyankee2601]

12. Only in certain sects.

Unfortunately, these sects are loud and rude, so you hear them a lot more.

If you read the Gospels carfully, you will hear Jesus directing all glory to his Father. After his death his followers got confused, particularly the Holy Roman Catholics, who placed such a srong emphasis on Christ as an individual human that they created the first major schism in Cristianity when the Orhtodox Easterners quit.

Martin Luther tried to set them straight, but his message got all twisted up and mutated into fundamentalist Protestantism, which is really the only group that worships Jesus the man as oppsed to God the Trinity. They have a bumper sticker that reads "My boss is a Jewish carpenter." The mainstream Christian reply to this is "My boss is the Father of a Jewish carpenter."

[NC_Nurse]

14. Because it's

all been distorted by man.
"Do not confuse the finger pointing at the moon with the moon itself" -
the Buddhist saying: all we know about God, we have made up.

[Az]

19. Lets just say

That in the mainline xian sects God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all considered to be one entity. There have been inumerable arguments about this and some of them have even lead to schisms in the church (unitarianism).

The critical aspect of the entity as the xians see it is Jesus. He is the conduit through which they can know god. He is their way into the kingdom of heaven. Without his sacrifice they would not be able to come into god's kingdom. Thus the focus is largely on his name and actions.

[Loonman]

20. Old Testament God was jealous and vengeful

Jesus was a nice guy.

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Because Jesus is the Savior

Depending on what branch of Christians you speak to you'll hear that he was either the Son of God or IS God.

Ultimately, I think you will find that a) the teachings of Jesus are more palatable to dems and other liberals than you might guess and b) most Churches who praise up Jesus do it through Pauls' teachings rather than His own! (And miss the whole point along the way.)

For more on that, go to the Christian page of my site and look for the page "Liberals like Christ". It explains this better than I do, as do many of the other websites I link to, as well as the reading list I suggest.

[arewethereyet]

41. because Christ is our personal Savior and only way into the Kingdom

He did what he did for us, out of love.

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. Depends on your translation

Did He mean I am the only way in the sense of as Jesus, or believing in God is the only way?

Personally, I believe Jesus was the Son of God who died for us. I also believe that He left behind some amazing teachings, thought they are sadly neglected at times.

However I also feel the old tale of the three men each describing different parts of an elephant makes sense. So anyone honestly reaching out to God, whatever name they call Him/Her, is heard. For that matter, the door may well be open to unbelievers too. (Hence the reason I consider myself a liberal Christian.. and not evangelical or fundamentalist. I see God as all-loving and all-forgiving. Ya might do time in purgatory wearing the shoe on the other foot for your sins, but you'll pay your dues and get to Heaven afterwards.)

[oneighty]

27. Hear Oh Israel the Lord Thy God Is One.

But The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost? What about them? Or He? Or She?

The Trinity. Something for everybody.

The Trifecta.

It is so confusing.

180

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. It's the youth thing. God is old

[Sallyrat]

42. Read Isaiah 9:6 & 7

This is a prophecy concerning Jesus, as Messiah, and it states:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

This is why Jesus has captivated the church, this plainly states his Diety, as THE MIGHTY GOD AND THE EVERLASTING FATHER. He is one and the same as GOD, THE FATHER......He is God in the human reality, He is a triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, these three are one.

I love Jesus, and I am a democrat, I love this site and feel at one with most of the posters......it would take more than Karl Rove and GWB to divide and conquer this believer.....I have the truth and the truth is what makes you free.....

[ChiefJoseph]

44. The concept of the Trinity has always completely mystified me.

[Blue_Chill]

45. say it with me - JESUS = GOD

The father, the son, and the holy spirit. The holy trinity and the three forms of one god.

[Malva Zebrina]

48. It was Paul who mystified Jesus

He never met him, but he proceeded in his quest to be the honcho and macho man inventing a new religion, to mystify Jesus into a god, and he used the old mythology to preach that his god was resurrected from the dead etc. Many gods before this were actually resurrected from the dead. But Paul just played into that, because in his congregation they were used to having gods like this.

He was actually brilliant when he disdained the original Jews, who actually knew Jesus in person, so the story goes, and of which I am indeed doubtful, because he wanted to be the big leader.

All he did was to incorporate the Roman beliefs in gods into his new religion and so it was a smooth transition.

I do not think any of it is actual truth. It is all mythology to me.

[Sallyrat]

51. That's why it's great to live in America, thus far......

You have your right to believe it isn't so and I have my right to believe it is so. Many countries try to tell you how to believe. Only when you believe with your heart that this Jesus is Savior and God will you know that it is true. It IS A MYSTERY, only faith makes it work. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. All things are possible if you only believe. That is your choice. When you doubt, you do without, when you believe you receive...and nobody is gonna make me do anything....

[Malva Zebrina]

60. err--exactly what is Jesus supposed to save me from?

I really want to know. I do not subscribe to mysteries that are couched in terms that are disengenous. The myth of the Jesus, is a myth. Someone made it up and there are so many contradictions in tne bible re this "god" that is is really embarrasing for anyone to have to teach it and still maintain their ethics and integrity. Yet, I observe that they do--ministers knowing of the contradictions and in consistencies, continue to try to preach it and pull the wool over the eyes of the believers. Why is that?

You can have your faith for all it is worth to you and I will not argue with that because that is an argument that is futile. I really do not care what your "faith" is. That is yours to have and to hold.

Many people have "faith" that the sun will rise tommorrow and that is also a fallacy, because we know that the sun does not rise anywhere.


But to state that we are being held to some mythological task by a mythological saviour--well I wonder, what exactly are we being saved from?

[Walt Starr]

52. Fallacious question. According to Christian mythology

Jesus and God are one and the same.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. Actually, Walt you and I agree most times

but there are plenty of sects who disagree on that statement you made.

Check the posts here: http://www.christianforums.com/t94801

Note: this wasn't the thread I was looking for. I think I saw it in one of the other millions of forums at that place, since it houses Christians of almost every stripe and color. Except those who won't use the internet or electricity. *g*

[Walt Starr]

55. Not mainstream sects

According to Catholicism, it's a true statement and I suppose I could make a pretty good argument that Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism that simply could not live up to the high standards of the Church.

:evilgrin:

Most of your mainstream sects would agree with the statement via the vehicle of the Trinity.

But don't ask me, I just a dumb heathen Pagan.

:evilgrin:

[GreenPartyVoter]

58. Don't ask me, either, I'm a "backslidden" liberal Christian

*g*

[Jose Diablo]

65. I don't get involved in "T" word discussions anymore

People been trying to figure out Jesus's incarnation for coming up on 2000 years.

Angel christology, Arianism, modal monarchy, Athanasuism (I think thats how its spelled) to name but a few. Believe you me, been many a nose busted over this topic. Why do you think Monk's take a vow of silence, it's so every one can get some sleep.

For the curious go read Early Church Fathers, come back in about 40 years when you finish.

I will pass, thank you very much.

[Malva Zebrina]

61. which is why there is no validity to the claim that

Christians and jews worship the same god. They certainly do not.

[John_H]

54. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! What about Mary and Joseph?

Without those two you cannot exclaim, "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are the Republicans assholes or what!"

[Walt Starr]

56. Um, Yusef is not Jesus' Father according to Christian mythology

Interestingly enough, Jesus' name would be Yeshua ben Yusef which literally is Jesus son of Joseph, but Yusef is not his father according to the mythology.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

63. If you're Catholic Jesus IS God

That's Catholic dogma

[kodi]

64. "jesus" imagry is easier to distort by those who control the message

Deism itself, without the trappings of personalities is not that easy to manipulate in others.

one does not see many violent, fundamentalist quakers running about these days bombing abortion clinics.

you need a hook, a connection so to speak between the message, messenger, and recipient of the message. the humanity of jesus provides that connection (and as history has shown, a fulcrum to influence personal behavior).