Recruiter Lies And My Friend's Son

[lostnfound]

I first met the young man -- a high school sophomore, perhaps? -- in the context of his father's last stages of cancer. I pondered then what the impact would be on the young man, as he faced coming-of-age without his father, as well as an uncertain financial future.

Six months ago, while I was immersed in alternative media reports of Iraq and of the lies being told by our empire-building government, I learned that the young man was joining the Navy. Now 20ish, he needed a plan for his future. And didn't his mom seem relieved when she told me that he had a plan now, that the Navy was going to train him in a medical specialty, and when he got out he could have a career? She worried over the uncertainties of his life before he enlisted..now, signed up in defense of his country, they were sure he would spend his time stateside, or on a submarine perhaps. Not in harm's way.

The Navy said, "if you do well in corpsman school you absolutely will be able to pick your specialty and where you will go." He studied hard, and is in the top of his corpsman class. But now the Navy says, oops, sorry, fellas: "the Marines need you. The Marines don't train their own nurses; they get all of their medical people from here, so this whole class from top to bottom will be assigned to the Marines. After another 2 months of Marine basic training your job will be to go out with the Marine battalion and attend to the wounded..triage on the battlefield. By the way, you won't be able to collect any seniority points while you are serving in your assignment with the Marines because it's not considered a 'ship assignment'. So when you get back after a year or so, you're not so likely to get your pick of assignments, then, either."

Just another kid screwed over for taking the word of the adults that told him 'trust us'.

I still remember the shell-shocked look in his eyes when his dad was dying. This world sucks. Was he looking for a man's path to follow? What will he see on that battlefield?

None of this shocks me. I had totally expected it, because I'd been reading the stories at DU and hearing news on Pacifica about troop rotations and the draft, etc. But good God I wish I had been wrong.

[EXE619K]

1. Army Recruiter lies: #1749

"You won't have to worry about getting deployed anywhere. Heck, we already have enough tanks in the Gulf and it takes a lot of JP8 to run those things! Don't worry about it kid! Even though you'll be assigned to an Armor unit, the chances of your deployment...I give it about 2% at the most!"

Boy, was I wrong.

:eyes:

[Mick Knox]

2. What happened is correct

Corpsman serve with the Marines.. Check out Wayne M. Caron.. a medal of Honor winner in Vietnam.. I won't say why I'm pointing him out as its personnal...

As a corpsman, he qualifies for LVN.. if he goes Independent Duty Corpsman, he can go to George Wash. Univ. and get a 120,000 education and be an RN when he's out of the navy.

He has selected an absolutely honorable profession. And one that will open many doors later.

[hang a left]

4. If he is not dead.

n/t

[el_gato]

10. he's screwed

played for a sucker

As well, there is nothing honorable about being a stooge for Halliburton.

[rppper]

12. independant duty corpsman also serve as the ONLY......

...medical personel onboard submarines, along with a few designated non technical personel who are trained as EMT's, and they garner a lot of respect there. they are taught to perform various emergency surgeries, lab tests, etc, etc....they fullfill the medical needs of over 120 men while that boat is underway...whether they go to a marine detatchment or a sub, they are all trained at the same school. perhaps this corpsman can volunteer for sub duty...it pays better and the food definatly beats MRE's. but on a sidenote....all of the corpsman i served with had done stints with the marines(you have to reach E6/HM1 before you can serve on a sub)but all of them said the same thing...it was one of the best tours they had ever done. those corpsmen are revered by the marines...it is who will be saving their lives when the killing starts.....

[Mick Knox]

18. Sorry, youre wrong

Ind. Duty corpsman serve on any ship not big enough to have a MD as the "MD"... They are highly trained..can write prescriptions on board, etc.. they are often on cruisers.. and they work in Hospitals .. there is no reg that they serve only on subs.

[Mick Knox]

21. IDC's

The mission of the Surface Force Independent Duty Corpsman (IDC) School is to provide training in advanced patient care, medical administration and logistical duties to function independent of a medical officer in the operating forces and various isolated shore activities of the Navy and Marines Corps. The school provides instruction in Surface Radiation Health, Surface Pest Control, Aviation Medicine Basic Cardiac Life Support, Clinical Laboratory, Pharmacy, Computer Science, Clinical Anatomy and Physiology, Physical Diagnosis, Medical Diagnosis and Treatment, Medical Training, Chemical and Biological Warfare, Preventive Medicine, Maintenance and Material Management System, Patient Administration, Health and Dental Record Administration, Medical Supply, NAVOSH, and Medical Department Administration. Refer to NEC Manual (NAVPERS 18068).
--------------------------------------------------

They are also qualified to take the NCLEX RN and become licensed RN's - 30-40 per hour. Saying they only serve on subs is 1000% inaccurate.

[Mick Knox]

44. apparently i cant edit my "your wrong post"

i thought you were saying they "ONLY" served on subs (as in.. they they dont serve anywhere else)... after rereading it several times.. i think you are just pointing out they they serve on subs...

My apologies... .... IDC's serve in many capacities where no mds

Again, my apologies for misunderstanding what you wrote.

[JaySherman]

3. I hate them all with blind passion and fury

Republican politicians, Pentagon generals, military recruiters. Liars, decievers, and devils all. My good friends just had their first baby this month. The thought of her growing up in a permanent war police state only strengthens my resolve to see these awful creatures stripped of their power at all levels. :grr:

[Union Thug]

5. Agreed

I share your disdain for these parasites...

[sventvkg]

6. Rule Number one: Join the Military and you have no choice anymore

This is simple and it's a rule. If you believe the bullshit a recruiter tells you and are stupid. You sign, you signed yourself away to their whims. Plain, simple and obvious. At least it should be. The dumb boy will certainly learn a lesson here...If he lives.

[Qanisqineq]

7. These are some pretty broad statements

against military recruiters. I have many friends that are recruiters and before my husband was sent to Iraq, he spent some time as a recruiter.

Unfortunately, some of the people that actually go out and do the recruiting are given bad information themselves from higher ups. Also, they have a specific MOS (job) that they are trained for and do for years, spend only a couple years recruiting, and are not "professional" recruiters (i.e. are not specifically trained to do this for their entire career).

A few bad eggs does not make the entire group evil.

[sangh0]

11. It's not just a few bad eggs

Recruiters are in the habit of making statements that are untrue. Furthermore, these recruiters are in a position to KNOW that these statements are untrue. For example, some posters have pointed out that they knew the truth about how the recruited will be treated, and have even gone so far as to call the young recruits "stupid".

If these posters know it's not true, why don't the recruiters?

[maxrandb]

45. You really don't know what you are talking about

Sorry, I have to weigh in here. You are wrong. Please don't perpetuate the military bashing going on here. Service to your country is an honorable thing. It also is necessary. Not all of us are Neanderthals.

Now to correct some egregious errors in several of these posts.

-The recruiter has absolutely zero control as to the job a person gets in the Navy. That job is done by a Classifier. How do I know? I was a Classifier. Basically, the recruiter sells the applicant on the Navy, PERIOD. The classifier details applicants into a specific job in the Navy based on test scores, aptitude, personal desires and, of course, the "needs of the Navy."

-The classifier can only offer jobs that a member is qualified for. In the Navy, most applicants are presented with 2-3 ratings that they qualify for, and that they have shown an interest in.

-I never lied to, or deceived ANYONE when it came to job description, what they would do, how long they would be in, or where they would go, and I guarantee you that the job description for an HM (corpsman) does include the fact that they can be assigned with the Fleet Marine Force. Marines don't have a medical rate or specialty.

-The Navy Corpsman is the MOST HIGHLY decorated rating in the Navy, and probably the most respected rating as well.

Sorry this is so long, but you really need to show some respect to the folks that are helping to keep you safe. The military is not perfect, and we have our share of losers, but we don't deserve the vitriol we get here.

"deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall".

[Columbia]

52. Thanks for the real scoop, max

[lostnfound]

13. I didn't make any broad statements..just specifics of one case.

I didn't say they were evil. They are human beings with a job to do and like SOOOOO many human beings, their jobs are pretty important to them.

One reality does not take away from another. The reality of the mother: a woman who suffered through surviving her young husband's death while keeping two kids fed and dealing with their grief; followed by the nerve-wracking uncertainty of facing her son's likely future dodging bullets in a warzone in Iraq. Seeing things that she probably spent many years protecting him from seeing. Who was convinced that this was nothing more than a sensible career plan.

I pray that her nightmare ends with nothing more than this worry, and that he never sees any action.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. Recruiters are given quotas to fill...

...and if they don't fill them, they get sent back to a regular unit. The pressure to fill those quotas is currently enormous at all levels. That makes the military recruitment system wide open to abuse by more than just a few "bad eggs".

And yes, I've seen kids recruited into the military that barely had the IQ to tie their shoes, much less survive even the most rudimentary training exercise.

[Columbia]

8. Being a Corpsman in the Fleet Marine Force is highly respected

Only the best Corpsman are given the opportunity to be called "Doc" with the Marines. He will wear the same uniform as them and will be treated with the same respect as a fellow Marine.

Make no mistake, he will get the best hands-on medical training the military has to offer and will be immensely prepared for a medical career in the future should he wish to do so.

[rman]

9. but the guy was lied to anyway - by the respectfull US Navy

-

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Please skip the recruiting blather...

...were you ever in the military? What do you know about any of which you speak?

"Docs" suffer the same or worse post-traumatic stress as the members of their Marine combat units. And they also stand just as good a chance of being killed or wounded.

The kid was lied to...why can't you admit that?

[Columbia]

19. Blather huh?

I've served with many Corpsman and I speak of them with authority and experience.

I can't speak for whether he was lied to or not since the story is third or fourthhand at best. We have no idea what exactly transpired. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that he may have actually volunteered to become a "Doc" but did not want to admit it to his mother.

Indeed, it is not an easy job, but definitely one that is highly respected.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Tell me where you served.

[Columbia]

23. Iraq

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Oh? What unit?

[Columbia]

29. I will not disclose that

Due to I am still serving and my various opinions regarding the current administration. Ask me in again in a few months. If you are not satisfied with my word that I served in Iraq, to be honest, I don't care.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Interesting response. Speaks volumes...

...while saying absolutely nothing.

During my five years in the Navy from 1976-1981, I served as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer from 1979-1981 with the Marines at Camp Pendleton, CA. In 1980, I was the senior NGLO on the Marine Amphibious Force staff...a unit that was division-plus in composition. This was at a time when we were training to invade Iran in 1980 to not only rescue the hostages but to also capture the Iranian oilfields.

Sound familiar? The military leadership was as heavily influenced by rightwingers then as they are now. The only difference was the fact that Carter was the President and he made a "no-go" decision at the last moment.

I knew a lot of "docs" attached to the Marines at Camp Pendleton. Unlike your broad-brushed statement concerning the "docs", some were very dependable and well-liked, while some were universally regarded as screw-ups incapable of applying even a simple band-aid.

I also served aboard ship as a Gunnery Officer from 1978-1979, and made one cruise to the Med. Prior to that I was enlisted (Orlando, FL basic training) and was later picked up for OCS (Newport, RI).

Anytime you feel comfortable divulging your background, feel free.

[Columbia]

35. I am familiar wiith ANGLICO

"Unlike your broad-brushed statement concerning the "docs", some were very dependable and well-liked, while some were universally regarded as screw-ups incapable of applying even a simple band-aid."

Of course not every Doc is a credit to the uniform, however, there is nothing wrong with making a simple statement that the MOS is generally respected.

"Anytime you feel comfortable divulging your background, feel free."

Fortunately, I am not subjected to provide anything you might want. If you don't believe my service, well, like I said before (only stronger this time), I don't give a flying fuck.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. Your last statement pretty much says it all, doesn't it?...

Based on that, don't expect me to believe anything you have to say from this point on. Thanks for proving my point.

[Columbia]

41. Have a nice day

:hi:

[Qanisqineq]

58. Columbia, I believe you

and I wouldn't reveal what unit my husband is in if anyone asked. Guess that means he isn't serving?!?!

[maxrandb]

46. Once again

The problem with saying "the kid was lied to" is that we are only hearing one side of the story. Some kids suffer from selective hearing.

So I guess what you are saying, without getting any other side than the injured person, is that "since the guy wears the uniform of his country and is a recruiter, he must be a liar". I for one would like to here what exactly was said to this young man, before I assume the recruiter lied to him.

[Qanisqineq]

59. hear, hear n/t

[Lars39]

14. My BIL tried to beat the draft and signed with the Navy.

He was trained as a medic. Navy then told him the Army needed him and sent him to Vietnam.

[Columbia]

17. I have no doubt that

He was told that he would serve ultimately according to the needs of the military. He may have been given a preference, but in the end, he will go where he is most needed.

[Lars39]

28. As I understand it, he truly thought he had joined the Navy,

not that the Navy was his first choice. :shrug:

[Columbia]

30. What was his first choice?

[Lars39]

34. What choice? He joined the Navy.

[Columbia]

37. You said Navy wasn't his first choice.

What was his first preference then?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Why do you need to know that?

[Lars39]

40. He made his choice when he joined the Navy.

He did not have any other preference. He joined the Navy. Can't make it any clearer than that.

[Columbia]

42. Ok nevermind

"not that the Navy was his first choice."

[mb7588a]

15. Some places to start...

You should advise his family to file a complain against that particular recruiter, for the benefit of your community. I don't know at all where you start the procedure. I'd start with a phone call to your congressman or senator's armed services casework staffer. They can be handy in getting recruits into the right situation sometimes. Honestly, a phone call will not hurt one bit.

[dflprincess]

24. Did he sign a contract that promised him this?

A few years ago an acquaintance of mine's son was in this situation. He was also in the Navy and they were trying to double cross him on the promises they made - even though he had it in writing. The kid had tried to get her back off -for fear of reprisal -when she had an extrordinary piece of luck. She was in DC for a conference and went to a concert (on the capital steps I think). Midway through the concert the conductor acknowledged the prescence of Admiral Something-or-Another who was retiring after a distinquished career. The Admiral was two steps in front of this woman. Never a shrinking violet, she grabbed the guy as soon as the concert was over. Fortunately, she had a copy of the kid's contract with her (she'd been planning on seeing Wellstone). Well, the Admiral was an honorable man, read the contract and was mad as hell about the kid getting screwed. He promised he would either get the training and get it now or he would get an honorable discharge.

About a week later the kid gets called into his commander's office who opens the conversation with the words "I don't know who your mother knows, but..." I can't remember is the kid got the training or the discharge, but the Admiral came through one way or another.

[lostnfound]

54. Thanks for the suggestion, I will pass it on. nt

[Mick Knox]

25. Some other places to start..

Comfort the parents - I know mothers worry... and allow the boy to do the duty he signed up for... Recruiter lied and this and that.. HE SIGNED UP.. he was not drafted. He signed up to go to war. Period. All vets; myself included, understood you friggin do wtf your told. This is total bs and all youre doing is causing a good kid stress if he gets wind of this. Let him do his #$%#$% duty and let him feel good for the good thing he is doing. Corpsmen serve with marines. He was told this DAY 1 in corpsman school. DAY 1. Read it over and over.. its the first thing you learn. There was no lie. he could have failed out, left.. went and been any other MOS... and he didnt. He knows what hes doing. Outrageous.

[distortionmarshall]

26. mebbe i'm alone, but my sympathy is limited on this issue....

i seem to recall reading (parts of) the contract that gets signed by recruitees, and there is a section that in no uncertain terms says something to the effect that the recruiter has absolutely no authority to make promises concerning future assignments, training, and the like... i'm a big believer in the idea that if you don't read a contract that you freely sign, and you get screwed, it's your own fault.

of course, if full disclosure of roughly the sort i'm thinking i remember ISN'T part of the contract, then you have my FULsympathy....

[distortionmarshall]

32. here's what I was thinking of......

http://www.join-snafu.org/recruiter/contract.htm

it seems like it's all there in the contract..... doesn't the signer have the right/responsibility to read it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. Most contracts don't involve the chance that you may...

...eventually lose your life, either. Is that what you meant by getting "screwed"?

Most military recruiters don't spend a lot of time, if any, on the details you mentioned in your post. Especially if said recruiters are under tremendous pressure to fill their quotas. And that is certainly the case at the current time.

[distortionmarshall]

47. true but.....

(and i swear ta god i'm not trying to be an asshole...)

i understand that recruiters use lots of the hardest of hard-sell techniques, but still, there's a contract in front of you - read it.

isn't there a reason for contracts?

You're EXACTLY right - most contracts don't involve the chance that you may eventually lose your life - ALL THE MORE REASON TO READ THE M-F CONTRACT...

no?

I quote from the contract - and the emphasis is in the original, in bold:

"The agreements in this section and attached annex(es) are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED."

It seems to me that this should make me ignore everything said by the recruiter....

[lostnfound]

56. This is good advice. Hopefully his thick skull will protect him in battle.

and if he survives he will have learned an important lesson.

If I wanted to, I could be telling his mother "I told you so", too, right now.

Hey, it's just one more story about "General Issue". The ugly chasm between the perspective of a mother who loves the baby that demanded more than any job she's ever had, and the perspective of a government that insists on treating human beings like raw materials to be stocked and consumed in maintaining an economic empire.

It's just life, the way it has always been.

[maxrandb]

57. Anyone who signs up with the military

and then does not understand that you may be placed in "harms way" has got to be pretty delusional.

Most folks that want to lay claim to military experience, without taking the chance of actually getting shot at, join the National Guard or Reserve. (oh wait, that was only true in GWB's time). I've told some folks that were thinking of the Reserves or Guard, that "in this day and age, with this mis-administration, you might as well go full time, 'cause the chances of your reserve or guard unit being called up is pretty darn good".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

31. Recruiters are like any high pressure sales job

I spent 15 yrs. USN, didn't know any recruiters, but I look on them as another type of salesperson, except the product they are selling is military service enlistment contracts. I expect they receive "quotas" from on high of various types with incentives or pressures to meet those quotas (awards, promotions, positive or negative evals), and do the usual sales person tricks to try to meet those quotas. Which, depending on the person and situation, probably sometimes involves distortion and sometimes outright lying.

The association of corpsmen as a "Doc" with the Marines is traditional and longstanding. Anyone who joined to be a corpsman and didn't know there was a good chance they'd be with a Marine unit (especially in the current environment) did not inform themselves about the Navy and Hospital Corps very well. All you have to do is look at the Hospital Corpsman Medal of Honor winners (many of them posthumous) to get an idea of what a corpsman's duties have encompassed during various wars. I don't see how it could NOT give you "seniority points" though--this is part of the standard duties and duty assignments for a Hospital Corspman in the US Navy. It is in no way a lesser duty than being shipboard.

[captain_change]

43. Great experience

Before attending college on an Army Scholarship, I spent 31 months as a 91B1P Field Medic with the 2/508th INF (ABN) 82nd ABN. Except for the first few months, I normally served as the Senior Aid Man for the company with 3 other medics in each line platoon. We were the elite, the guys tough enough to Carry 30-40 lbs of medical equipment on top of 30-40 lbs of other junk (in Alaska my ruck weighed over 100 lbs, not counting the 6 500ml IVs strapped to my body to keep them warm). I used to joke that I only had 5 Jumps, all at Jump School at Ft Benning, the other 31 times I just kneed my ruck out the door and got sucked out behind it, bouncing against the C141 or C130 fuselage. The troops walked, we walked. They stopped, we went to work taking care of the men. The Plt Sgt was the platoon "Daddy", we were the Plt "Mommy" with all the love and respect included. Guys who couldn't hack it as a "Line Medic" got shipped off to the evacuation platoon driving an ambulance. It taught me self reliance, decision making and art of persuasion (when you are an E-3 going toe to toe with an Company Commander over evacuation of a trooper, tact is needed)I served in combat, and it was gratifying to see how the platoons/company were very concerned about keeping me safe.

[TacticalPeek]

49. Welcome to DU, captain_change!

:toast:

And thanks for your service to our country.

(IMHO, the Captain in your scenario is the one that needs the tact, if he values his ass and career :).)

[TacticalPeek]

48. Two hands.

On the one hand, my recommendation, he can suck it up, strap it on, excel, and have some real fun:



Special Operations Medical Association

On the other hand, he can try to get the Navy to 'do right' by him, which will require the help of someone with knowledge and clout, such as the retired admiral mentioned above, or a Congress person. In my sojourn in the Green Machine, Ron Dellums once worked wonders for me (and others).

Like Mayberry said above, recruiters should be approached just like you would a car salesman. Do not expect him to tell you everything (or anything) that's wrong about the car you want to buy. Get what you can in writing, and wear a wire when you're talking to him. And be prepared to deal with what you wind up with "as is".

Corpsman with the Marines is a great gig. It's about the only branch these days with decent leadership.

[anarchy1999]

50. Personal Story -How I was almost recruited.

I was only 20 something. My marriage was a wreck. A smooth talking recruiter for the Airborne Paratroopers came after me. I went all the way through the interviews, the tests (physical & mental), and was asked to sign that day. I was going to be sent to the Language School. My recruiter did me a favor that day and told me I would probably be on an island somewhere. I do not, to this day know why he told me that. He had tried to seduce me to bed, he had done everything he was supposed to do, and at the last moment he said this is where you will be, an island probably somewhere in the Pacific, alone. I had taken every test and passed with flying colors, they wanted me. I walked. Many times, over the last years, I have wished I had taken the training in languages, but now, I'm glad I did not.

I feel for every person that is being heavily recruited. My brother is a pastor in a non-denominational chuch in Minnesota. Whoops, sorry, he was fired. His wife works for a large pharma company. Now he is a stay at home Dad. He was the Chaplain of his Corp at A&M Texas. He has failed miserably. He was in China when Tiannemen Square happened. He had the opportunity to lead Dallas and many Independent churches out of the darkness and he bailed.

Sorry for the rant, guys.

I just know these recruiters. I do not like them and they do not like me or themselves. They are hurting too.

THEY LIE for NUMBERS! It is all about QUOTA!

[UTUSN]

51. Lots of Solid Info About Recruiters Throughout the Thread

The quotas. Navy Corpsmen assigned to Marines. The promises made or the ommisions: One of the first levels of rueful "joking" among new enlistees is trading recruiter stories. Along the lines of "I was promised a school" or "I didn't know my 2 yrs of college could have gotten me a pay grade above high school level (recruiter didn't tell)."

[maxrandb]

60. Yes and a lot of kids

Also sit around and tell each other how whacked their parents are. Does not make it true.

Your statement about two years of college not being counted does not make sense. As someone who has been on recruiting duty, if a recruiter has an applicant with advanced schooling, not only does the Navy get a brighter recruit, but the recruiter gets additional points for bringing him in. It does not benefit anyone to suppress someones education, unless you just assume that the recruiter wanted to screw both the kid and himself.

Additionally, anyone with post-secondary education is required to at least get on a phone and talk to an officer recruiter.

Please get the facts straight.

[anarchy1999]

53. Can we just please try to save our kids.

Plain and simple. We have to save our kids, and the kids in every country we see fit to drop bombs into.

Plain and simple. Stop the wars. Kucinich has the skinny on this one issue. Stop the military/industrial machine. Stop the corporate takeover of this nation, end the corruption of the bankers, elected officials, etc.

Save our kids, and the hundred of thousands innocents being killed in this needless, illegal war.

In silence we are complicit. God help us all if we remain silent in the face of evil and what is wrong in every religion to be found. Fundamentalism. In every religion there is. "My God is bigger and better than yours." We have right on our side????????????

Which side is that?

[lostnfound]

55. I agree with you 100%. nt