Do you know what pisses me off most about this whole "Passion" thing?

[DCDemo]

Over thousands of years, many thousands, if not millions, of normal, average human beings have suffered a long-drawn, painful-beyond-belief-death. Not one of them was Jesus Christ.

The Christ's suffering on the cross was not the point - it was his sacrifice for all of us to show his true path to God.

His pain was no more than the pain of any other man - his miracle was embracing his faith in spite of it, and coming back.

Over-emphasizing the pain he went through obscures the message of his death, much less the message of his life.

Just my thoughts.....

[Rowdyboy]

1. Good points

I'm not sure why Mel chose this angle. As a Christian, it doesn't really appeal to me. I really don't want to see the movie, though my partner does. Perhaps after I've seen it, I'll understand.

[Dookus]

2. Thank you

I've believed that for a long time.

After watching people die of AIDS, I believe Jesus has nothing on them when it comes to suffering.

Plus (if you believe the story), Jesus died KNOWING he'd be resurrected, AND knowing that he was saving the world.

My friends just died suffering and scared.

[aquart]

9. Thank you.

Compared to all of that, what's a rich boy taking a three-day weekend to rough it?

Had he taught what he did and died of old age, would his words be meaningless?

The torture and death of the scapegoat is an ancient, very pre-Christian tradition. Is that the only important part of Christianity?

[Silverhair]

14. Yes.

There have been hundreds of philosophers and sages. Many of them very wise. Without the sacrifice and resurrection, Jesus is just another in a looooong list of people giving good advice.

It was because of that belief in the resurrection that Christians have accepted martyrdom over the ages.

[DrWeird]

3. You mean like...

people who suffered a long, drawn-out, pain-beyond-belief, violent death because somebody else watched a Passion play and got pissed off?

[DCDemo]

4. That would be Passion: Redux

;)

[liberalhistorian]

6. Excellent point!

That's always been my problem with any performance of the "passion" play. Jews in Europe, especially, always suffered after performances of it and lived in tremendous fear during the whole "passion" season.

And, as a Christian, I agree with the OP, and Gibson has, indeed, chosen the wrong angle because Christ himself didn't want any focus on his own suffering, it was, and still is, the suffering of human beings (such as those dying of AIDS, as another poster mentioned) that he wanted and wants the focus to be on and something to be done about.

[Perky]

5. Ya miss a bigger point!

The Cross means everything....but it also means nothing.
The work of the Cross by Christ..was done on our behalf.."so we would not bear the shame of our sin and offer sacrifice of our own. That is why Jesus says: It is finished. He has done the work for us.


But here is the point.. The Cross would be nothing without the Resurrection... and no man can bring another new life.

[liberalhistorian]

7. That's true, of course, but

what I think the OP was trying to say was that Gibson wrongly focuses all on Christ's pain and suffering, when he never did himself and when what he wants the focus to be on is the suffering and pain of human beings, whether they're dying of AIDS or torture for their political/religious/social beliefs or race/gender, or are uninsured and suffering from cancer and about to lose their house and everything they've worked for or are homeless and cast away and viewed like a piece of trash, or are unemployed and unable to find a job, with a family to support, etc., etc., etc., on and on and on.

Helping those suffering and/or in pain, no matter who they are are what their race/gender/sexual orientation or socioeconomic status is or what everyone else thinks of them, is the important thing and what Christ wanted the focus to be on.

And that's what the RW fundie fascists who couldn't care less about anyone who isn't white and rich just don't get.

[Perky]

40. Yes but you know...

He care just as much for the gaingfully employed suburbanite with a happy marriage and two cats as He does for the homeless woman who had a child by an abusive uncle and a bad crack habit.

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Bingo

It's all about the Resurrection, but very few people seem to get that.

[Sgt. Peppers]

8. I think it is more about sacrifice, and the pain of God as in Father, Son,

& Holy Ghost. And if people feel uneasy about it, there is probably a good reason they feel that way. And it's not the guy in the films fault. You see he was innocent, that is the point.

[aquart]

10. No, it's not.

The point of the scapegoat is NOT his innocence, but his guilt. He takes the guilt off the people, the nation. If he does not have that guilt on him, it's nothing but a crappy miscarriage of justice.

If he only feels the pain of the punishment, and NOT the pain of the crimes, then he could be humming "three days and I'm back in the chariot again" through the whole thing. Our burdens are NOT merely physical suffering.

[Silverhair]

15. Excellent. !!!!!!!! n/t

[H2O Man]

11. Martin Luther King used to quote

that noble bard of yesterday, James Russell Lowell:
Once to every man and nation, comes the moment to decide
In the strife of truth and falsehood
For the good or evil side;
Some great cause God's new Messiah Offering each gloom the blight
And the choice goes by forever, Twixt that darkness and that light.
Though the cause of evil prosper, Yet 'tis truth alone is strong
Though her portion be the scaffold, And upon the throne be wrong.
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadows
Keeping watch above his own.

Perhaps Mel G. misses the symbolism of the event. All mythology, as we know from even a shallow reading of Joseph Cambell, begins with suffering. The messages delivered are beyond words, hence symbols are used. Many sincere people confuse the symbol with the higher meaning. Likewise, those who say they have watched their friends die alone confuse what has occured in front of their eyes. Your friends were not alone.

[Tansy_Gold]

12. What pisses me off is the ignorance of even my friends.

Okay, so this morning I had to listen to three of my co-workers babble about how they couldn't WAIT to see the new Gibson movie, how they were taking their CHILDREN to see it, even though it's R rated for VIOLENCE because this is the kind of GOOD violence that kids SHOULD see.

:puke:

Bad as that was, I then had to read an email from one of my dearest and most liberal friends who informed me that she (who was raised Catholic) didn't know what all the fuss was about and why anyone would think a movie about the crucifixion would NOT be anti-semitic, since after all EVERYONE who knows ANYTHING about history KNOWS the Jews killed Jesus.

:grr:
:puke:
:grr:

[Sperk]

13. I agree....the story of his life seems to be getting lost in the story

about his death...but then again, isn't that the point? Inflame passions...ignore the message of love, forgiveness and understanding and most importantly..."oneness".
:-(

[scottcsmith]

16. I was wondering the same thing myself

Since The Passion is Mel Gibson's creation, I have to wonder why he wanted to emphasize horrific, graphic violence and gore (at least according to reviews from folks that have seen the film) rather than what Jesus taught. I can imagine that Christian families are going to see this film together. What do you do with a traumatized eight-year-old who has endured scene after scene of their deity being tortured? Holy crap, if people had a hard time with their kids seeing Janet Jackson's breast for two seconds during the Super Bowl, how are they going to deal with lingering scenes of nails being graphically driven through Christ's hands and feet, his skin flayed with bodily fluids spraying everywhere? The gore in the movie is supposed to be pretty bad. One reviewer said it bordered on pornography. And that's the story of Jesus that Gibson wants to communicate to the world?

[kenth]

17. The emphasis

of His suffering is meant to show what He went through for us. When I see it, I go in with the understanding that the suffering I am shown is my fault. I will be given a glimpse of the sacrifice given for me. It will be something for me to reflect on, not to blame others.

This emphasis doesn't obscure the message of His death, or His life. It makes the message crystal clear.

[DCDemo]

19. So Christ's message

So Christ's message is that the son of God came to Earth to prove to us that he can suffer torture and miserable death like a million other men throughout history and the current world?

It's not his manner of death that makes him special, but his message, and his Ascension.

A million other men, women, and children, at the minimum, have died equally painful and bloody (if not worse) deaths. In suffering so, Jesus was, and is, not alone.

His message is of hope, brotherhood, love, truthfulness, and a sacred duty to the poor, misguided, and downtrodden.
That's what makes him unique and worthy of worship.

[scottcsmith]

24. Interesting

I'm just curious why you think the suffering of Jesus is your fault? Is that a common teaching in the Christian faith, that the death of Jesus is the fault of his followers?

[regnaD kciN]

34. Yes...

...one of the basic principles of Christianity (however differently it has been interpreted) is that Jesus died for "the sins of the world." That means everyone -- Christians most decidedly not exempt.

[maggrwaggr]

18. what pisses me off -- it's goddamn publicity for a MOVIE

that's all it is. It's a fucking MOVIE and it's getting the most free publicity of, probably, any movie ever made.

It's just another day in corporate-controlled America.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. What about Gandalf? He came back as the White Wizard in the Two Towers?

[donco6]

21. Yeah! And he got burned up in FIRE!

Whatta way to go!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

23. Now THAT was good fantasy. Talking plants, demonic creatures

vying for the domination of man, lots of magic...

Hmmm.

[donco6]

26. Yes. And it hasn't spawned any

gay-hating, women-suppressing, Science-squashing, sex-repressing, pseudo-compassionate fascist subchurches, either.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

28. Or wars, crusades, inquisitions, "witch" burnings....

BUT!

I5t is responsible for the evil D&D craze. Maybe even Harry Potter.

[donco6]

30. That's true

And we all know Harry Potter is devil spawned.

So I guess we're even then?

[arewethereyet]

25. he got sent back because his work was not done

the analagy is poor

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

27. Analogy? I thought the thread was about movies where people came back

from the dead.

Would Zombie and Vampire movies fall into the genre?

[arewethereyet]

31. OK from that perspective lets see

Gandolf and vampires are immortal by nature
Jesus and zombies are mortal by nature

it would have to break that way. only problem is that Jesus is also the Son of God so you really can't lump him in with zombies who are just dead guys randomly revived. Jesus had thousands of years of prophesy leading up to His ressurection. zombies just for some radiation of the like.

I guess Jesus is in a class my Himself.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

37. Vampires are as mortal as zombies in that they can be killed by certain

means (depending on which mythology you want to point to).

In the Jesus story, he "ascended" hinting at the idea of immortality. However, the Herculean mythology that the Christ story has been ascribed to by many scholars does give the hero mortal attributes combined with immortal attributes leaving the hero with the ability to "die" or live. I don't remember if there was clarification of Gandalf's immortality or not.

I guess you'd have to include Hercules as the head of the class of literary/myth immortals/mortals since his story came before.

[arewethereyet]

22. the point is He did it for me, specifically and personally,and you too

it forged a path for you and me to God that was guaranteed and sure. The pain was given for each and every one of us. You cannot over emphisize His pain because it represents our sin that He washes away with his blood. His pain is our failure to love God enough.

[DCDemo]

29. I'm really sorry that you dwell in the pain aspects of Jesus

Many pagan and folk religions across the world embrace pain to better know their gods, and I was brought up to think that Christianity was different.

It wasn't the pain - that is always, of course, a constant thought (the cross) - but it was that he would go through that to deliver his teachings.

His test is faith in his teachings, not testament to his physical distress. Every witness to his death saw him suffer and die. He wasn't educating them - he was making his supreme point to his disciples so that they would spread the word ==> his teachings.

Why would you let yourself get distracted by the blood and gore instead of focusing on Jesus's lessons? Look how much of the New Testament concerns Jesus's teaching, lessons, etc., compared to how much deals with his physical death.

Jesus celebrated life, and his rebirth is ALL about life!

It seems to me that you are missing the greater lesson.

[DCDemo]

32. YeaH!

<kick>
:)

[arewethereyet]

35. no, I don't dwell on it

it is important to acknowledge it as much so as to acknowledge His resurection and His teaching. You cannot appreciate the eternal life He offers without understanding the price He paid for it.

You should not look at any one part to the exclusion of the others. THis part of the year is intended to focus on this part.

And its not the blood and gore, ite the pain that our sin causes God.

If you are ignoring the Passion, you are missig a third of the greater lesson.

[K8-EEE]

39. That's Another Thing I Have A Hard Time With....

that he "did it for all of us personally" etc. And washing sin away, what sin is a baby born with? What sin was a baby born with even BC?

It seems to me that if everyone practiced Christ's message -- which includes being kind to those like you and different from you, to love your enemies, turn away from violence, refrain from judging others etc., then we would truly have paradise on earth. But we are ruled by those who accumulate wealth, hate the poor, and profit from violence and who IRONY OF ALL IRONIES declare themselves "compassionate conservatives."

[Wapsie B]

33. I think it's part

of certain fundamentalist's blood lust. I remember seeing someone with a t-shirt with a picture of the cruxifiction. It also had wording about how gory it was and how he suffered on the cross. Really turned me off.

[NicoleM]

36. Amen!

;)

I have had the same thoughts about this whole thing.

[K8-EEE]

38. People Torturing People

Is something I will never really understand. But I have had that same thought my whole life. I went to Catholic school and once the priest used that as his theme. His sermon was on "why Christ's pain was worse than any other man's pain." I think he said it was because he did it willingly -- but what about all the other political or religious heroes who endure torture when they could just rat on someone, or whatever?

I never really forgot his question or accepted/understood his answer to it....it's a question I've grappled with ever since. Most amazing to me is that Christ's main message, to love one another, love your enemy and all that, is so rarely practiced, least of all by the so-called "conservatives" who practice that violence leads to peace, in His name. Direct contradiction to "turn the other cheek" etc.