How much anti-Semitism is on DU?

[JohnLocke]

[PVnRT]

1. Define "anti-semitism"

I see it used more often than not as a label for anyone who dares to criticize policies of the Israeli government. Not to mention the tired old "Why do you support terrorists?" line.

[JohnLocke]

5. Anti-Semitism:

(n) Hostility, either overt or covert, conscious or subconscious, against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, whether directly against the Jewish people or though disproportionate criticism of them as a group, nation, or religion.

[Lars39]

9. So disagreeing with Israli policy is anti-semitism?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

14. No. But if all a person does is bash Israel and ignore other injustices..

...you can be pretty sure that the person is an anti-Semite.

[Lars39]

19. So even handed criticism is OK?

[JohnLocke]

23. Yes.

You can call for the end to the "occupation" and the "apartheid wall" all you want, but you should sure as hell mention injustices done by oppressive Arab governments too.

[Djinn]

27. actually no

I do NOT have to follow up any and all Israeli criticism with a "but the arab countrys are worse" adendum.

Much as I do not have to follow up criticism of my own (ostensibily democratic) government by mentioning brutal Asian regimes - that's a really illogical argument.

YES I will continue to hold Israel, USA, UK, UK, Germany etc more acountable for their record than a country run by clerics (Iran) Monarchs (Jordan and Saudi) or dictators (Syria, Iraq) for the simple reason that those others never claim to be democracies

[Malikshah]

38. Bingo

Very nice answer. Wish folks would actually think about these issues before they respond.

The old "moral relativism" attack used by many is tired and useless.

Funny, another thread started just a few minutes before this one.

How utterly fascinating.

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. Hence one problem

You hold Israel to an unfair standard when it is attacked by those you fail to hold to the same standard. Yeah, that's fair.

[Djinn]

47. no muddle

it's quite simple...

I personally hold "democracy's" more accountable than admitted dictatorships.

If Bush answered criticism of the Patriot Act with "you should see the repression in Saudi" would you think that was a valid argument?

When Saudi/Iran/Syria criticise Israel - I ignore them, like you I think they need to do some serious plank removing from their own eyes first - but when I criticise Israel or someone else from a democratic nation does so I don't feel they need to list all other nations that are "worse" that's just a ridiculous argument.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Yes, it's a problem

Just like the UN. There is no attempt to balance the votes of free nations like Israel against monstrous nations that support terror like Saudi Arabia or Syria. Hell, Syria gets to serve on the Security Council. Israel does not.

I hold all nations EQUALLY accountable.

While you may ignore Saudi/Iran/Syria, many do not. Even here.

[Djinn]

57. so

you'd accept an increase in repression in the US if Bus justified that "it's worse in Saudi"

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. I don't ACCEPT anything

But I put it in perspective.

Israel, oh for instance, is under constant attack by a bunch of cowardly fanatics who do their best to blow up little kids and hide in their bases behind Palestinian civilians.

That's perspective.

[Djinn]

66. how bout the other side's perspective

Israel has an entire army with helicopters, missiles and tanks with which to defend itself - the Palestinians dont.

Or how about the fact that people keep saying that the PLO needs to reign in militants, but it's hard when you're under house arrest and you have no income, how do you have a adequate police system when you do not control the land?

Perspective is often lost on both sides...having a knee jerk reaction of "anti-semitism" will only exacerbate that

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. The other side

Also has, often enough, had the armies of the entire Arab world at its disposal. It also has some of the richest nations on earth supporting it with our oil money.

Missiles, helicopters and tanks are weapons of conventional warfare and only really designed for such. If Israel went to war with Syria, for example, it would kick their ass. However, Israel is unwilling to truly go to war with the Palestinians because it is after only the terrorists and not at war with the entire populace.

[JohnLocke]

72. Well said!

:yourock:

[Djinn]

73. so why engage in collective punishment?

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Security

The Palestinians have made their bed. They refuse to go after terrorists that hide in their midst and then get upset when Israel does so.

[Djinn]

87. that sounds like a very general statement

bordering on prejudice.

Can I say "The Israeli's have made their bed. They want to return to a land some left 2000 years ago but get upset that Palestinians who left 50 years ago want to return."

Not ALL Israeli's support Zionism, some are actually oopsed to the creation of Israel, some beleive in Israel but only at 1967 borders, some beleive in Greater Israel and want all the land...there is no homogeneity amongst ALL Jews, nor ALL PAlestinians. They didn't ALL "made their bed"

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. It doesn't border on anything other than reality

The PA -- the governing body of the Palestinian people -- backs, endorses, supports, tolerates, funds, etc. terror. The PA refuses to take action against such terror forcing Israel to do so.

Israelis don't WANT to return anywhere. They are there, though their enemies, including some here at DU, do not accept that fact. Heck, even the UN accepts it.

We could get into a long subthread about the meaning of Zionism. In most uses, it is intended to mean support of the nation of Israel as homeland for the Jewish people. If you don't support THAT, then we have nothing more to discuss.

[Djinn]

92. you referred to

ALL palestinians when you were referring to the brutal and illegal actions of SOME.

The Israeli government is also the governing body for all Israeli's yet I do not hold them accountable for the Kahane-ites or Baruch Goldstein.

You seem to be saying the terrorism is the fault of all Palestinians?

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. It is THEIR government, not that of Slovenia

The PA quasi-government refuses to address terrorism and actively supports it or carries it out. In addition, according to polls, the vast majority of the Palestinian population supports terror. Then it lands at the doorstep of the collective people.

I hold the Israeli government responsible for actions or inactions of that government. I hold the PA the same.

[durutti]

103. By that standard...

We can stop criticizing Palestinian suicide bombings, too, since there are worse injustices.

[Wonk]

11. Semite:

(n) A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

[JohnLocke]

16. Yes, yes, we've all heard that before.

In this context, we mean "Semites" in the narrow form of the definition: the Jewish commumnity, whether religious, ethnic, or social.

[rockymountaindem]

20. That's not the point.

The phrase "anti-Semitism" was created by anti-Jewish groups in Germany during the 1800s. They thought that the former term "Judenhass" (meaning literally "Jew-hater) made them sound brutish and unintelligent. They thought the phrase "anti-Semite" made them sound more sophisticated and a little intelligent. When they coined the word, it was for Jews only. I can almost guarantee you that they weren't sitting around saying "Well, techincally Franz, if we're going to call ourselves anti-Semites we're going to have to kill the Carthaginians and Babylonians too".

[smirkymonkey]

15. Aren't Arabs semites as well??

I thought that Jews and Arabs and other tribes of the middle east (not Persian, et. al) & north africa (actually anyone speaking a semetic language) were all considered semites, as it refers to a language family, not necessarily an ethnicity.

[JohnLocke]

18. See post #16.

[smirkymonkey]

24. Oh, I didn't see that before I posted...

n/t

[DavidMS]

78. That definition is slightly dated...

There is a Jewish Religion.

There isn't a Jewish religious or "racial" group. Their is a Israeli National group.

Corporate Jewish Communities (that is those that had contractual relationships with the local despot, er ruler) ceased to exist in Western Europe when Napoleon tore down the Ghetto walls.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/363_Transp/Sanhedrin.html

These universalistic sentiments were echoed in the 1885 Reform Platform.

http://www.ccarnet.org/platforms/pittsburgh.html

For Jews whose ancestors grew up in areas that were never subject to Napoleonic Law or are of an anti-modernist persuasion are much more likely to see themselves as a ethnic/"racial" group.

Israeli =/ Jew. That is Israeli is a nationality. Judaism a religion.

[durutti]

98. A few problems with this definition...

Hostility against Jews because of their ethnicity is anti-Semitism. That's undebatable. And of course, you're right that it makes no difference whether it's overt or covert, conscious or subconscious.

However, the problem with denouncing something that may be subconscious is that it's very difficult to ascertain someone's subconscious feelings. So it seems more productive to focus on conscious hostility.

A bigger problem comes with the second part of this definition: "...whether directly against the Jewish people or through disproportionate criticism of them as a group, nation, or religion."

First of all, who's to decide what's disproportionate criticism? Are we to add up the number of perceived offenses by all the various ethnic groups, countries, and religions, assign "badness" values to each, and then only criticize the worst? Of course not. Such an exercise would be necessarily subjective.

Secondly, Jews are not a nation. Israel is a nation, primarily made up of Jews; but not all Jews are Israelis or support Israel.

I find it interesting that the ADL, AIPAC, and company say that to conflate Israel or Zionists and Jews is anti-Semitism; then they go and do just that, conflating Israel and Jews as it suits their agenda.

Israel is a (mostly) Jewish state, but Jewry and Israel are not interchangeable. Therefore, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism unless Israel is being criticized because of its mostly-Jewish makeup, or unless the wrongs committed by Israel are blamed on its mostly-Jewish makeup.

To criticize Israel in its treatment of the Palestinian Arabs is not anti-Semitism -- especially not for Americans, who are bankrolling so much of it.

To criticize Israel's expansion is not anti-Semitism -- indeed, it's the only instance of settler-colonialism still occurring in the world.

To criticize Israel's human rights violations is not anti-Semitic. While many of Israel's neighbors have arguably worse human rights records, such an evaluation is again a subjective matter. Furthermore, recent years have seen a massive movement against Israeli policy that has been actively seeking international support. This has not been the case in the Muslim countries.

To oppose Israel's "Jewish character" is not anti-Semitic, assuming that those who oppose such a state also oppose the idea of Muslim states, Hindu states, Christian states, or states favoring or discriminating against any particular racial or ethnic group.

[question everything]

107. It is not the "old fashioned" anti-semitism anymore

that thrived in Europe for generations, hating Jews because they were different, using the story of the passion as an excuse, going after their property as a goal.

Since Sept. 11 anti-semitism took a new form as anti-Israel. It started in European campuses with the help of a huge muslim population. (Why, do you think, did the French want to ban the muslim head cover?)

It found place in U.S. campuses by students who just like to side with the underdogs and looking at simple answers for complicated situations.

And, of course, by many intellectuals who would be suspicious of anything supported by "Washington," including support of Israel.

I have to wonder how many of those who think of Israel as a brutal colonial empire ever bother to look at the map, to see the size of Israel (same as Rhode Island) and to look at the muslim world spread from SE Asia to the Atlantic Ocean.

I have to wonder how many who side with the Palestinians as underdogs ever bother to study the history, of the region, including the parts that the West has always played there.

Just to reiterate: Osama bin Laden did not send the planes to the WTC and to the Pentagon because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He has done this because he does not want any Western presence in Muslim countries. Because, like most Muslims, he has yet to reconcile the fall from grace since the middle ages, when Islam was the leading force in the science and the arts to life of misery and ignorance and poverty.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

25. Define anti-semitism

Being a Jew, I define anti-semitism as hatred of Jews. I don't define it as criticism of Israel or Israeli policies.

[JohnLocke]

36. Welcome to DU, SCRUBDASHRUB!

Cool handle!
:toast: :yourock: :toast: :yourock: :toast:
---------------------
For a definition as I see it, see post #5.

[durutti]

84. Exactly right.

And I've seen more anti-Arab, anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian bias and even hatred on DU than anti-Semitism.

[Rowdyboy]

2. I NEVER go in the I/P forum so I'm not going to vote

I can say that I've seen very little obvious anti-semitism on the board otherwise.

[JohnLocke]

10. There is a lot of Anti-Semitism guised under "anti-Zionism."

I have no problem with legitimate criticism of the Israeli government, but for some Israel is just an excuse ...

[Wonk]

13. Do you consider this thread (linked) to be Anti-Semitic?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x54131

edit: since you're such an expert...

[liberalhistorian]

52. I must respectfully disagree with that,.

Yes, it's certainly true that there are those (I'm talking in general here, not just DU, although they exist here as well) who use criticism of Israeli policies to disguise their anti-semitism, and who ignore similar or worse actions by other governments, but you simply cannot dismiss out-of-hand any criticism at all of Israel's policies as "anti-semitism" and immediately and hysterically label anyone who has the slightest criticism of Israeli policies as "antu-semitic."

And it's equally hypocritical for people to focus solely on Israeli victims and not give any importance at all to Palestinian victims, who are as important as Israeli victims. I think that's what frustrates me the most, any time I express any sympathy at all for Palestinian victims, the vast majority of whom have nothing to do with Hamas and Hezbollah and their murderous, inhuman "comrades", I'm labeled a "terrorist sympathizer" which is total bullshit and very insulting.

If you don't want all Israelis to be tarnished with the same critical brush, then don't lump all Palestinians into the "terrorist" mold, that's just as hypocritical and wrong.

[JohnLocke]

62. I don't...

>>> "If you don't want all Israelis to be tarnished with the same critical brush, then don't lump all Palestinians into the "terrorist" mold, that's just as hypocritical and wrong."

I don't do that, and neither does Muddle, Don, Jim, or GabysPoppy.

[liberalhistorian]

85. I'm sorry, but there are a lot of posters on here

who do just that, who have no problem with blanket policies of terror against Palestinians in the name of "fighting terrorism." I cannot and will not accept blanket policies of oppression, discrimination, and persecution against an entire people, including women and children, because of the actions of some of its members.

[JohnLocke]

86. Not one poster supports "blanket policies of terror against Palestinians."

[durutti]

104. When does it cross the line and become anti-Semitism?

Or can you just read minds?

[Malva Zebrina]

3. depens upon what you are calling "anti-semitism"

much of what I see in not what I would call "anti-semitism" but a realistic look at what is going on politically and a realistic, non biased, report of the justification of much of it.

[JohnLocke]

34. See post #5.

[Malva Zebrina]

48. well I have

but I cannot understand the "overt or covert" thing. Is that not a judgement based upon someone's own interpretation.

Let us be honest. I do not and cannot ever condone any policies of Sharon or for that matter any who would take over after he is gone . It is simply to my mind, an immoral and barbaric policy, and I object to the same with Bush. It is simply my personal abhorence to these pre-emtive strikes that do not solve a thing. We see it in both places.

Is that anti-semitism? Because I criticize these policies as a direct affront to my own sense of morals or ethics?

Am I obliged to only say wonderful and good things about Sharon or Israel's pollitical policies or else be deleted here on DU?

Sorry but I have my non beliefs in the first place. I do not believe in gods. Therefore, I cannot believe a god gave someone some land.

That is not anti-semitic in my eyes. It is my belief or lack of belief in gods that is at the bottom of that.

So if I am deleted for saying so, who exactly is being censored here?

Because I cannot believe in gods, I am anti-semitic for saying that I cannot believe a god gave a certain ancient tribe, exclusive ownership of a piece of land?

[kalian]

4. "Bullshit"....

ditto to this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=illegal code&poll_id=7323&choice=2&forum=104&topic_id=1151644

[daveskilt]

6. did you know that semite is the gaelic word for vest?

grrr I hate those itchy things!

[JohnLocke]

7. Good to know.

:)

[KG]

8. now why would anybody be against a vest?

i think they make a nice additon to any mans wardrobe! :)

[Zinfandel]

17. How much anti-Italian is there on DU, what kind of question is that...

ALL groups should be able to take it when they fuck up...if they can't and fullback on shit like labels to avoid the questions and/or accusations it's typical bullshit, without a leg to stand on.

I sure as fuck can criticize Israel and Sharon the butcher, without being anti-semetic...because I'm not and NEVER will be...just as I am not anti-Italian (I am one) but I hate those fascist Italians and the fascist republicans in this country as well!!!

[Malva Zebrina]

22. Bravo

my feelings also

there seems to be a lot of censoring re this issue here. Now I wonder if this post will be deleted for expressing my "anti-semitism"

[Wonk]

28. Exactly. It's like saying anyone who criticizes Bush's policies is

anti-American. nt

[liberalhistorian]

76. AMEN!

Well-said. Sharon is as much as, if not more than, a problem as Arafat, there's a reason why he's called "the butcher." I cannot and will not ever support him or those who continue his racist, murderous, genocidal policies, anymore than I can support a Palestinian leader who does nothing to reign in Hezbollah, Hamas, and similar groups.

He and the Likud Party are two-thirds of the problem, frankly, and I'm tired of them always being given a pass and of any criticism of them being immediately labeled "anti-semitic." And they way they try to suppress those Israelis who are against their policies is equally sickening.

[Isere]

21. I question the way you constructed the poll

The choices are, well...downright silly. I don't intend to respond.
There are some quite obvious anti-Jewish posters and they feel free to give vent whenever the topic of Israel comes up. It's rather ugly and can make the environment here hostile. But I would guess that they are only a handful and not worth bothering about.

[Wonk]

35. I didn't vote in it either.

[Sgt. Peppers]

26. If you mean Liberman should get my vote, then your off base.

But if you mean we hate Jews, then you are still off base. I have not read any post like that.

[JohnLocke]

30. Welcome to DU, Sgt. Peppers!

:toast: :yourock: :toast: :yourock: :toast:
----------
Anyway... this has nothing to do with Lieberman. He is too conservative for my tastes, and I support another candidate (I'm sure you can tell who it is). And as far as you not reading any post like that... spend some time in the Israeli-Palestinian Affairs forum (Click on Foreign Affairs, then go in the I/P sub-forum).

[Djinn]

40. I spend plenty of time in I/P

and apart from once - and that post was removed within three minutes of posting - have never seen anything that I'd class as anti-jewish.

There is plenty in there speaking about "the palestinians" ie "they" have to stop being terrorists (all of them) and the "they" have no desire for peace, and that Knesset members calling for ethnic cleansing aren't racist????

But despite those (numerous) posts I wouldn't try to claim that DU is anti-arab or anti-muslim - there are a few people who can not discuss I/P without resort to insults and prejudice ...most of us are adults

[JohnLocke]

44. What?

>> "There is plenty in there speaking about "the palestinians" ie "they" have to stop being terrorists (all of them)"

Link, please?

[Djinn]

53. you're kidding right?

are you really suiggesting this doesn't happen? I've had stuff pulled because I've used the term "parroting the IDF press release" sorry but if you think that's semitic and wotrh alerting on then you and I clearly have a difference of opinion when it comes to what constitutes anti-semitism.

And just for the record - I'm from an religiously atheist but ethnically jewish background.

Generally the really offensive stuff on BOTH sides gets pulled however their are threads saying Rachel Corrie deserved to die that are allowed to remain - see here for example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=51625&mesg_id=53816

I wouldn't mind seeing evidence of an anti-semitic post that was allowed to stay up

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Clearly you don't read much there

Hardly a day goes by when atrocious material is not deleted. I know, I hit the alert button pretty darn often.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

29. Bullshit

There is no "Anti-semitism" on DU. It's a construction of some very imaginative people here that will find insult in the most innocuous comment.

[JohnLocke]

31. Clever, Forkboy.

[Forkboy]

51. Thanks,I liked it

[arewethereyet]

32. nonsense, I see it frequently

[JohnLocke]

Hello, fellow Edwards supporter! (nt)

[JohnLocke]

33. Hello, fellow Edwards supporter! (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Apparently, your view is in the minority

Maybe that which most here consider anti-Semitism doesn't bother you. It sure as hell bothers others.

[Wonk]

50. Here's a link to put Forkboy's comment in a better context.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1151644#1151667

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. As you can see from that thread

I have posted there as well. Hell, even DuctapeFatwa, no ally of mine at DU, can tell you that I have defended Muslims on several occasions on threads he has started.

But the venom pointed at Jewish people on DU is sometimes enough to make me vomit. Yes, the mods do a good job deleting it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Forkboy]

54. I was just quoting Mr Locke Muddle

I hope that you'll pop into the other thread and tell John how much Islamophobia bothers you as well.

[mandyky]

37. Anti-semitism is a label

used by Jewish people to rationalize and justify everything they do to Palestinians, while expecting no criticism.

I respect Israel and Jews, but the past 10 - 20 years Israel has become as much an aggressor as the US is on some matters. It is almost like the Holocaust gives them license in their mind to go overboard on self-defense.

Edited to correct spelling - sue me I soem times spell things the way they sound to me and don't proofread.

[JohnLocke]

42. What the fuck?

And it's the Holocaust, not the "Halocaust." If you're going to slander Israel, at least spell Holocaust correctly.
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[Malva Zebrina]

93. slander?

[Terran]

100. What slander?

This is exactly what many people here are talking about. Someone makes a criticism of the activities of Israel's government, and you call that slander. This is why people question the validity of your arguments in this area.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Oh what garbage

Anti-Semitism is a fact of life for Jewish people. They get it here, they get it in Europe and they sure as hell encounter it in the Mideast. No, not anti-Israel, anti-Semitism. Read some of the crap that comes out of the Arab world sometime. The blood libel. The claims that Jews (not Israelis mind you) eat babies or are behind every conspiracy known to man.

[arewethereyet]

45. you want to know "Poll question: How much anti-Semitism is on DU?"

you don't have to look far.

Sadly, many of them don't even realize it.

[whirlygigspin]

56. deleted

[JohnLocke]

65. Uh, sure...

Whatever.

[mandyky]

61. For your info, I almost named a daughter after Golda M.

after reading her biography, and if people want to call any one anti-semetic just because they see both sides fine. Calling people names win no allies. Palestinians have a legitimate gripe - to allow the creation of Israel, land and property was taken from them. If the US gov't took a state in the US and kicked everyone out and put in an Indian tribe, what do you think people who used to live in the state would do and think. Not much different than the Palestinians, I'd bet. And I don't justify terrorism, but Israel wants everyione else to change and accept them and noone else has a voice, and those that voice any disapporval are anti-semetic. Hate to tell you Palestinians and Jews are cousins, racially speaking. I think both sides need a major time out and paddling. They both act like children in need of a nap.

[bpilgrim]

58. where is RARE?

since you WILL get the boot if you expouse such views here, read the rules.

welcome to DU :hi:

peace

[JohnLocke]

60. The last two options. (nt)

[buddhamama]

59. there have been a few

eventually they get banned.

i don't know how many exist here now.

the IP forum scares me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. The I/P forum scares me as well

That's why I post there. To help keep it balanced.

[JohnLocke]

67. It is a constant chess game...

[buddhamama]

70. indeed it is

i read it, i just don't post there.

'anti-Muslim' attitudes exist down there as well.

do you think it is possible for a Muslim to sniff out one of his own in a group of hundreds?

and warming up to Pat Robertson, what is that all about?
the Man is repulsive. His regard for Muslims is reprehensible, and yet, when i ventured down there the other day to find him being touted as a friend.

[Djinn]

71. JohnLocke please post a link

you ask me to provide a link for a thread I found anti-palestinian and I did - could you please provide a link to evidence of anti-semitism, a post that hasn't been instantly pulled but is clearly anti-semitic - if there are bigoted freaks on the board I'd like to be able to avoid them

[JohnLocke]

80. Read this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=3424

[Djinn]

91. Nope

Sorry if that's your best evidence of anti-semitism you've comlpetely lost me.

Posting an article that a poster says is bigoted does not make said poster bigoted - especially when they repeatedly stated that they think it's BIGOTED.

If I post something written by the NeoNazi's and add "what a bunch of tossers" at the bottom does that mean I supoprt the Nazi's - afer all I posted their article...mmm that's Ann Coulter reasoning

[JohnLocke]

95. The statement was edited in after a huge backlash.

[Forkboy]

101. That's such bullshit John

the post was quoting a poll that IS anti-semitic.Darranar never should have had to even add an edit.As he said,on a progressive board you would think it wouldn't have to be added because it should go without saying that we're all against bigotry in any form here.

Unfortunately,some people are so overly sensitive he felt he had no choice to make things clear for the simpleminded.

[Wonk]

96. Lots of "Still waiting..." type posts in that thread, I notice...

:think:

I also notice a lot of deleted posts and a tombstone.

[starroute]

68. Unanswerable and biased poll

If this were an online poll from one of the major news organizations, we'd all be complaining about how slanted it was. You've obviously made up your mind that there *is* anti-Semitism at DU and are only interested in the question of how much.

Speaking from my own experience, I can't recall ever seeing *any* anti-Semitism on DU -- and I believe I'm pretty sensitive to all the classic codewords. The Christians here come in for a lot more flack (and, with a few exceptions, have been remarkably tolerant about it.)

Face it -- the Israelis have gotten themselves into a real Catch-22. Lacking any sort of legal claim to the territory that is now Israel, they early on put forth a moral claim instead -- that they were in some way superior to the people who had previously been living there, were more enlightened and democratic, would make the desert bloom, and would set a standard for progressive development in the Middle East. But having made that claim, they now seem astonished that anyone would actually hold them to it.

The Israelis can't have it both ways -- either they're morally superior and are willing to live up to that presumption, or they're no better than anyone else, just one more nation-state that can't seem to get along with its neighbors. At some point, they're going to have to choose, and then they're going to have to live with the consequences of that choice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. The reality of the Israel threads

You might not see anti-Semitism, but the pro-Israel posters sure do. And we jump on it like we are stepping on a roach. The mods, thankfully, are quick to delete what we point out to them. That means it goes away. It doesn't mean it was never there.

Israel has EVERY legal claim to the territory that is now Israel. Even the anti-Israeli UN acknowledges that. I am disturbed that you do not.

Israel, as a nation, is indeed "more enlightened and democratic, would make the desert bloom, and would set a standard for progressive development in the Middle East" than ANY of its neighbors. It is, ultimately, difficult to do all of those things when you are under constant attack for 55 years.

So, yes, Israel IS morally superior than its enemies. And, if it can't get along with its neighbors, perhaps that's because they have tried to destroy Israel since 1948.

[JohnLocke]

75. Yes, it is...

It was in response to this post...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1151644#1151895

[starroute]

97. I see -- but trying to parody a poll is probably a bad idea

Maybe I'm the weird one, but when I log onto DU, I generally start at the top and read down. So I'm likely to see any parody before I hit the original -- and especially in this case, there was no way to tell your poll wasn't meant to be taken straight.

Still, there is a definite tendency around here to assume that the crimes of Islamic fundamentalism are part and parcel of the religion, that the crimes of Christian fundamentalism stem from a deplorable but atypical perversion of the teachings of the church, and that the crimes of Jewish fundamentalism are not even worth discussing.

To that extent, the original poll did have a valid point to make, however heavy-handed it might have been in the execution -- whereas yours makes no sense at all except as a parody of the original.

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. Interesting, considering so many think there IS anti-Semitism here

Perhaps you ought to read this thread.

[distortionmarshall]

79. i'm not antisemetic in the least, but......

.... that doesn't mean i have to support many of the policies of the israeli government...

similarly, i'm not antiamerican, tho i hate many of america's policies....

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. I love that headline

Where have I heard THAT before.

[distortionmarshall]

106. i hoped it would catch someone's attention.....

i'm a pretty boring guy most of the time, ya know...

:)

[durutti]

81. I have yet to see one instance of anti-Semitism on DU.

Another pathetic attempt to equate criticism of Israeli with anti-Semitism...

On edit: I picked the "just a few" option. I haven't seen any, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist (in fact, I'd imagine that the law of averages dictates it must at some level).

[JohnLocke]

83. Well...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1151644#1151895

[durutti]

88. Fair enough.

Didn't see that other thread. Thanks for the pointer.

[Forkboy]

102. Read the thread durutti

and you'll see the the poster isn't anti-semitic,no matter how much John would like to believe it's so.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

108. Locking

Flame-bait and ...

Due to continuing problems, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is limited to the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum, and is governed by a special set of rules which are available in that forum. If a discussion is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, it is still allowed in other forums. Discussion of other Middle East issues is also allowed. If a thread is on a different topic, but later goes off-topic and becomes a discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues, the moderators may move the thread to the Foreign Affairs/National Security forum.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#topics

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