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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:56 PM
Original message
The Black Box Shuffle -- Latest Rebuttals to the Latest Talking Points
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:24 PM by BevHarris
More here: http://www.blackboxvoting.org -- and for those who are new to this, all chapters of the book are online for free at that site. These are rebuttals to the latest set of talking points (spouted this time by Thomas Tully, an assistant from the Iowa Secretary of State's office):

"The important piece to remember is that in the 2000 general election there were approximately 4 to 6 MILLION Americans whose votes didn't count because of poor election technology and of inadequate voter registration practices."

According to the M.I.T./Caltech report, the only system currently being sold that disenfranchises more voters than the punch card system is the touch-screen system

"So, the desire by election officials is to capture the votes as the voter intended them and be able to count those votes accurately. There are some Secretaries that had "jumped the gun" to update their systems, but as the Secretary of State of California has communicated, it is the election practices and procedures that need to be overhauled in the wake of this new technology to safeguard the integrity of the process (check out their AD-HOC report)

True. Election procedures need to be overhauled, and that hasn't been done, so here are we are on the Titanic, hurtling toward the iceberg. We've got an election next week without safeguards in place.

"Before this gets out of hand on having a paper trail, let me start from the beginning. The fact of the matter is on voting equipment, that EVERY piece of voting equipment in use in the world is corruptible, provide me with any technology and I can give you the same argument that these computer and blackbox people are saying are so horrible...but it is the elections practices and procedures that maintains the integrity of any of these systems. Can corruption happen with any of these machines/technology? YES! Does it happen? YES! However, the practices and procedures keep these incidences few and far between.

Paper ballots are the most critical part of the audit trail. Getting rid of paper voter-verified ballots is exactly equivalent to burning your invoices, bank statements and cancelled checks and then relying exclusively on a computerized accounting program that only your bookkeeper has access to.

He is claiming that incidents of corruption are few and far between, but he actually has no clue how often it happens, because the touch-screen machines can't be audited, and the optical-scan machines are not audited, even though they could be. In most locations, they don't even take results reports at the polling place to compare them with results reports at the county. There are now hundreds of documented cases of machines miscounting.

"I just think that these "computer professionals" might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am concerned that even if all of the new scrutiny is applied to these machines is achieved, but the public still doesn't trust these machine inherently...then they won't vote because they perceive the system is flawed or corrupt, then we are back to square one.... no one voting.

This is just a scare tactic, based on nothing. Show us a statistic that says people will stop voting if we scrutinize security of our voting system. We keep hearing this drivel, but this is just a talking point, prepared by the Election Center and the vendors. It is backed up by nothing.

"The other thing is, these are NOT computers as "WE" know them (as these people are making them out to be by comparing them to "your computer and losing data"), they are more like glorified calculators with a touchscreen, they do not have programs to manipulate data like our home and office computers do.

My goodness. This is a total lie. And why would a "glorified calculator" need a million lines of source code? (Why would any voting system, for that matter — but a source at Wyle Labs said that by 1996, ES&S source code was 900,000 lines long.) These computers absolutely do have programs to manipulate data. The above statement is an excellent example of elections officials who do not have sufficient expertise to do their job in a responsible way.

"They are not connected to the Internet, they are not connected to each other, they are not prone to viruses or attacks, and they do not fail like our computers do.

GEMS is set up with a java-script based program called jresults which is specifically designed to transmit vote data to the Internet.

The Sequoia machines we observed in Riverside were connected to each other, and the Diebold touch-screens can also communicate to each other wirelessly.

And excuse me, what is he smoking when he says they are not prone to viruses? Both Diebold and Sequoia are Windows-based, and any computer can be affected by a virus, especially if it is created by someone with inside knowledge.

And the all-time most idiotic comment: "they do not fail like our computers do." Huh? Again we refer you to Chapter 2 of Black Box Voting, where we document over 100 instances of machines failing to count correctly.

"For instance, just as I cannot hack into you desktop calculator or your fax machine, you cannot hack into individual touchscreen units.... plus there is a whole technical part of writing code for these touchscreens. These machines, like computers, are dumb.... they ONLY do what their code tells them to.

The ES&S machines in Florida are now equipped with wireless. So is the Diebold TSx. Is he seriously suggesting that no one can hack a wireless communication? This is considered to be one of the most insecure methods of data transmission there is.

And this should not inspire confidence: "Plus, there is a whole technical part to writing code."

Huh? Yes, and the world has about 10 million people who can do "technical stuff." He is correct that the machines can do only what their code tells them to do. However, since he is not qualified to evaluate the code, and four independent studies have now shown the code to be flawed, this statement can hardly be considered reassuring.

He attributed the following information to Doug Jones, but I'm sure this is not from Jones. I believe this actually comes from either Dr. Brit Williams or R. Doug Lewis:

"Here are the steps that a person would have to go through to be able to change the outcome of an election.

"You have to know the language the software was written in (not English, Spanish, etc., but rather the programming language)


Actually, with Diebold, all you need is access to the GEMS machine and the ability to double-click a file and type. Regular typing, regular numbers and words, not code.

..."You have to know the language AND VERSION of the compiler that was used to compile the program (it converts the program from a human readable form to machine language)... in order to "reverse engineer" the software you must have the identical version of the compiler in order to reverse engineer it;

You don't have to reverse engineer in order to tamper.

"You have to gain access to the software for a long enough period to actually replace it;

Review Chapter 12 of Black Box Voting and you'll see that the password could be replaced, vote totals changed, and audit log erased in just minutes. The machines are usually connected to a live "digiboard" modem bank for several hours on election night.

"You have to make the software ignore the pre-election test or tests and only initiate itself on election day;"

Solving this is as simple as hatching an egg. You can set a small piece of code that activates only when triggered, and the trigger can be as simple as casting a vote, or closing an election on Election Day. Or, you could tamper by hacking in through the phone lines or the wireless connection, and of course, the machine would pass the pre-election tests because no one would be hacking at that time.

"You have to have the software be able to actually change votes throughout the day and do so undetected;

Except that we don't have procedures in place to detect differences between polling place tallies and county tallies. And there are several tampering methods that rig the election before the first vote is cast. The above statement is simply false.

..."In many states, there is a requirement to escrow the software, so that you can compare the software in the units with the escrowed software. Even in states where this is not so, NASED requires the ITAs to escrow the software at the ITA (Independent Test Authority) so it can be compared to the originally qualified software.

Except that we now know they often put software on the machines that is not the same thing as that held in escrow (in California, it was found that Diebold was using the wrong software in every location that was audited.) Program modifications, patches, and fixes are done, which change the software from that held in escrow. There is no procedure by which the software being used is compared with that held in escrow. And worse, many county officials we have interviewed aren't sure what software versions are installed on their systems, and don't know which version numbers are certified either, so they can't even monitor their own systems.

"You now have to have the involvement not just of one or two people but significant numbers of folks to make all this happen undetected, actually change the outcome, and get someone elected who should not have been elected.

Nope. All it takes is ONE person. And in Georgia, in 2002, we now know that one man modified software that counted a million votes, and no one looked at what his modified code actually did. Then they overwrote it with something else, so no one will ever know.

"A piece of paper that the voter sees does not guarantee that the same results will be recorded within the machine - if you want to manipulate the election, show the voter whatever the voter wants to see and still manipulate it later. Security experts will still argue the value of having paper for recounts.

Actually, security experts are pretty much of one mind that the ONLY way to create a secure system is to make sure it provides a voter-verified paper ballot and use robust auditing procedures which compare the voter-verified paper ballot against the machine results.

"The current solutions presented by the vendors as a result of their concerns for the validity of the results have their own limitations, because:

"They add a printer, which can run of ink, ribbon, or paper.


The average number of voters for touch-screens is about 275 per machine. The printer currently in the Diebold touch-screens is similar to the robust printer used by retail outlets like WalMart. Are they honestly trying to tell us that you can't print 300 pages without running out of ink? Goodness. WalMart would have to shut down its operations every hour or so if this was true.

"Paper can jam.

In a recent test of the Avante system, thousands of votes were processed without any jams. Most of these systems use thermal printers which use an inexpensive paper roll which is not prone to jamming (and you can buy long-lasting thermal paper, so let's not go there either...)

"Printer can be disconnected from power source.

Yes, you can disconnect a printer from its power source. You can disconnect a touch-screen from its power source. You can disconnect an optical-scan from its power source. If we are going to use this excuse, we have to toss out the machines altogether.

"They add weight to the units (complicating precinct setup, shifting control of delivery and setup from poll workers to expensive delivery services along with quality control and security efforts over those services).

Diebold already has printers built in. Sequoia's touch-screens are hooked up to printers via a port. Someone needs to bring a printer in -- much less strenous than getting two beefy guys and a flatbed truck to move a lever machine, but they did that for a hundred years. We are really grasping at straws here, folks. I'll bet we could easily find citizen volunteers to carry a printer into a polling place, if only we could have a voter-verified paper ballot!

"Voters can, and probably will, walk off with ballots with some of the solutions presented (vote buying?)

You know, for the last 200 years when we've used paper ballots, we just didn't hear of this obsession of voters to take their ballot and run out of the polling place with it. All of the solutions require putting the ballot in a ballot box at the polling station. And by the way, if this argument had any merit, we'd have to dump optical-scan machines, because voters would be scampering out of the polling place with their optical-scan ballots too.

"Inability of blind voters to check their ballots (Braille printing only covers 10 percent of the blind).

This is another red herring. A simple solution is to produce a printed ballot that can be read with a standard book-reader, a device which scans the ballot and reads it into headphones for the blind. Such a solution has the very significant added benefit that it can be used also with absentee ballots, enabling sight-impaired to vote at home if they cannot find someone to take them to the polling place. The visually-impaired voters I have spoken with say they prefer the option to vote in privacy either at the polling place or absentee, and paper ballots compatible with a book reader can achieve this inexpensively.

"Or, once printed receipts leave the polling site (which will be difficult to prevent at the precinct level) do you now introduce the ability of fraudulent reproduction of printed receipts intended to confuse and contrive the process?

The Avante system produces a voter-verified ballot behind Plexiglass and the voter cannot remove it. This is such balderdash. Provide any study or scientific data that indicates voters will try to escape the polling place clutching their ballot! Such evidence does not exist.

"The point is simply this: do not be misled into believing that elections are reliant upon technology that can be manipulated. The real question of whether there "are sufficient and proper safeguards to make it highly improbable?" And the answer to that is yes. It may be possible to do many things, but like time travel (which is theoretically possible), it is highly unlikely at this time.

This guy has no idea how likely or unlikely it is, and apparently has not read the four consecutive independent studies that show it is relatively easy to tamper with these systems. Added to that, the procedures would help a lot, BUT THEY ARE NOT IN PLACE YET!

"Another allegation made by some is that the software should be in the public domain rather than proprietary, leaving the impression that the software is secretly controlled by a company or individual. Simply because the software is not open to every hacker in the world, does not mean the software is not reviewed and exposed to public scrutiny.

The software for these machines is not exposed to public scrutiny at all, and its review and certification has been so flawed that it has allowed machines to be used which lose votes, and contain back doors to do "end runs" around the system.

"The national testing program for the National Association of State Election Directors (NASED) requires that the manufacturer's software must be escrowed with its written source code. The difference here is that the source code is NOT secret. It is simply unavailable to the general public -- and that is a significant difference. There are many technologically advanced people who would love to have the opportunity to examine all kinds of software (not just that used in voting) but it is not within their purview to be able to do so. Should we open all of the software available simply because they are interested?

Please review Chapter 12 and Chapter 13 of Black Box Voting and you'll see that these systems are actually reviewed by very few people, whose credentials we are not allowed to know, and no one really knows what tests they do either — and they have passed astonishing flaws through certification.

"Since the source code is escrowed with our national Independent Testing Authorities, and additionally as a condition of approval in many states or local jurisdictions, it is not secret code. In an appropriate governmental investigation or court inquiry, it can be compared from the machine to the escrowed versions. This is an appropriate safeguard for the public interest.

The escrowed version often is not the same, and when California compared the machines to the escrowed versions, the code was found to be NOT the same.

"Additionally, the nation's ITAs REQUIRE that they witness the build of the software so they can assure an added layer of precaution is built into software security.

The worthlessness of the ITA process is shown in two ways: Four independent reviews found the software to be severely flawed, but the ITAs had given it a passing grade, and the ultimate failure of ITA testing comes when you have a machine that can't count -- again, see Chapter 2 of Black Box Voting, and Appendix A.

"The genius of the American democratic process is its diversity. Since we use so many different types of voting equipment, provided by so many different vendors, and because elections are controlled by so many local elections offices, it makes manipulating an election in America very difficult.

Four vendors control about 90 percent of the electronic voting market, and these vendors are often interrelated. For example, Todd and Bob Urosevich co-founded ES&S. Todd is now an executive of ES&S and Bob runs Diebold Election Systems. Sequoia Voting Systems shares identical hardware and software with ES&S on its optical scan system.

"The ability to manipulate an election with DREs, combined with election practices and procedures, means it is highly unlikely to be able to do this and get away with it. You can still manipulate an election easiest with hand-counted paper ballots.

The danger is in the scale of manipulation. When you have programming controlling millions of votes, set up by unnamed programmers who aren't even living in the USA, you have a security problem of much bigger scale than any localized manipulation of paper ballots. (See Chapter 13 which demonstrates that a Russian immigrant to Canada uploaded more software into the Diebold system than any other programmer, and that five Canadians got access into the machines without anyone looking at their handiwork).

..."I just wish these reporters would get their facts straight before they make a "call to arms" and also that they understand the process of elections before they "issue the obvious solution" because there is no one fix to this issue and a paper trail is only a band-aid to a wound that requires stitches.

We would very much like for Mr. Tully to get his own facts straight. Failing that, he'll end up on our list called "You've gotta be replaced."

Bev Harris

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice piece, Bev.
Keep fighting!
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick
nt
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Many of the same lame excuses from my local election offical...
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:26 PM by leftchick
Mr. George Gilbert who happens to be a member of The Election Center.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/stories/2003/12/01/votingMachinesNeedPaperTrail.html

<But George Gilbert, Guilford County's director of elections, says the case for a paper trail is overstated. Under Gilbert, a respected 15-year veteran of the job, Guilford was the first jurisdiction in the country to use touch-screen voting machines, and it has used them countywide since 2000.

Weighed against practical concerns, including cost and convenience, Gilbert believes that printing paper ballots isn't worth the trouble. He estimates that printing a ballot for every eligible voter (as required by law, even though most would be thrown away unused) would cost Guilford County almost $70,000 per election. The cost for large urban counties in other states might run 10 times that amount.

Adding paper also means slowing down the voting process, which costs more than time. Printers jam and break. "Every time you add 30 seconds to the process, you have to add another machine to avoid lines," says Gilbert. "Lines discourage participation." As for security, Gilbert points to his rigorous testing program and notes that even paper ballots can be tampered with. "There is no technology in the world, paper or electronic, that can guarantee integrity to an election," he says.

Ultimately, says Gilbert, fair elections rely on the people who run them. "Given proper procedures, integrity and capabilities, it's the liveware, the people and the process that make it work," he says. >

....The "liveware"... :grr::

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. They all seem to read from the same script
But these points, and their rebuttals, are important because so many citizens are now venturing out to question their local officials, and are being bombarded with talking points.

Let us go forth well-equipped!

Bev
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yes we shall....
I just told my neighbor I am giving her a copy of your book to read and pass on. Thank you Bev! :)
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Protecting our right to vote is not worth the trouble?
Does he know something we don't know?

The last lines "fair elections rely on the people who run them" is our point. Why make it easy for one or two dishonest persons to throw an election?
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Holy shit!! Do these guys hear what they're saying???
Weighed against practical concerns, including cost and convenience, Gilbert believes that printing paper ballots isn't worth the trouble.

"There is no technology in the world, paper or electronic, that can guarantee integrity to an election"

"fair elections rely on the people who run them."


That's the point!! Evidently "the people who run them" are more concerned about their own convenience and "trouble", and rightfully admit that elections currently depend on....what? People who are lazy and apathetic to the potential seriousness of the consequences??

He makes the best case for multiple safeguards just by his own statements!

This whole damn world has turned upside down!

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

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nodictators Donating Member (977 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. In Miami-Dade, FL, Touchscreens cost 5 times as much as Optical Scan
Miami-Dade County could have purchased optical scan machines for $5 million. Instead, they paid $25 million for ES&S touchscreens.

It costs about 25 cents to print a op-scan ballot. M-D has about 1 million registered voters and primary and general elections every other year. Thus, they could have printed ballots for 55 years with the money saved by buying op-scan machines rather than the touchscreens. And that is assuming that they print 1 million ballots in the odd-numbered years for municipal elections, which is unlikely.


Those damn touchscreens won't last even half that long.

Worse yet, with the problems they had in the 2002 primary election, the touchscreens probably cost the M-D county election supervisor his $150,000 per year job!

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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Paper Adds Time?
Geesh...

I've talked to some savvy election officials who observe that it takes LONGER to vote on a DRE than to mark a ballot.

And so what if it takes :30sec. longer to check on the paper ballot?

It's about accurate representation, not speed.

Everything with these officials is about convenience.

Methinks they need to review their responsibilities or get another job.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Isn't this guy contradicting himself???
"Before this gets out of hand on having a paper trail, let me start from the beginning. The fact of the matter is on voting equipment, that EVERY piece of voting equipment in use in the world is corruptible, provide me with any technology and I can give you the same argument that these computer and blackbox people are saying are so horrible...but it is the elections practices and procedures that maintains the integrity of any of these systems. Can corruption happen with any of these machines/technology? YES! Does it happen? YES! However, the practices and procedures keep these incidences few and far between.
<snip>
Then he says....

"The point is simply this: do not be misled into believing that elections are reliant upon technology that can be manipulated. The real question of whether there "are sufficient and proper safeguards to make it highly improbable?" And the answer to that is yes. It may be possible to do many things, but like time travel (which is theoretically possible), it is highly unlikely at this time."

He says it's possible, says it's happened, then says it can't be manipulated???

Double-speak, if you ask me. I think the guy is blowing smoke to cover his own laziness and apathy.

Thanks for this report, Bev. :yourock:

O8) Prayers for your continued success and safety!O8)


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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. He is blowing smoke...
up someones ass...but not mine or yours. Does anyone believe a word this joker said? I sure don't

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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hey Bev...your name was brought up here in Austin Saturday.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 02:38 PM by GOPisEvil
There's an E-voting forum April 7th here, sponsored by the League of Women Voters Austin chapter. Perhaps you and/or Andy might do well for a visit. :-)

SoniaS, VelmaD and I will be helping the ACLU stuff mailers to the local precinct chairs on Wed. night. :thumbsup:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Austin!
Im there...As long as we go to 6th Street for a brew.
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scottxyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. I called and left a message for Thomas Tully
This is so infuriating. How can someone who knows so little about computers be in charge of talking about computerized voting systems??

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/contactus.html

The number I called was
515-281-0145
I left a message


I am really starting to go nuts hearing all these idiots patiently lecturing us about how these computer programs work - when they obviously have their head up their ass.

What is going on here? If Thomas Tully were working at a private company, he'd be fired for incompetence after saying all that ridiculous stuff.

Why does this man have a job???

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Woo-hoo! Scottxyz -- I love your posts.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-04 03:11 PM by BevHarris
And for those who haven't followed this closely, Scottxyz has a formidable grasp of how computers work.

Why does this guy still have a job? Exactly. It is time to start calling for people to be replaced. Why be polite when we're getting charged OUR tax money to pay for these bozos to throw away our voting system?

(LoudSue: Love you, too. You rock!)

Bev
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. Isn't there a prof at the U of IA on the IA election board who's
written a lot about BBV problems? There was a link to his work on a BBV thread in the last 6 months.

I think he's a paid consultant or something.

Anyone know who the guy might be??
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Doug Jones, University of Iowa Department of Computer Science.....
.....From, Analysis of an Electronic Voting System This guy perhaps? :evilgrin:
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. If anyone else feels like helping to educate.......
..... Chester J. Culver, Secretary of State of Iowa and his minions in the Elections Division, here's the contact information.

Contact Us

Hours: Monday - Friday 8:00 a.m. - 4:30 p.m.

General E-Mail Address: sos@sos.state.ia.us

Administration
Room 105, State Capitol
Des Moines, IA 50319
515-281-8993
515-242-5952 (Fax)
sos@sos.state.ia.us

Press/Media
Christopher Ludlow
515-242-6235
cludlow@sos.state.ia.us

Business Services
First Floor, Lucas Building
Des Moines, IA 50319
515-281-5204
515-242-5953 (Fax)
515-242-6556 (Fax)
sos@sos.state.ia.us

Scheduling Requests
Laura Larkin White
515-242-5083
llwhite@sos.state.ia.us

Elections
First Floor, Lucas Building
Des Moines, IA 50319
515-281-0145
515-281-7142 (Fax)
sos@sos.state.ia.us

Voter Registration
First Floor, Lucas Building
Des Moines, IA 50319
515-281-5781
515-281-7142 (Fax)
sos@sos.state.ia.us

Ask him if he really shares Mr. Tully's opinions. :evilgrin:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. this guy makes some good points
I think that the benefits of the paper trail in increasing confidence are worth the costs, but this person gives his perspective effectively.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. kick
:kick:
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Those Points You Think are Effective....
...were thoroughly rebutted and made to look pretty foolish by Dr. David Jefferson, last year. By the way, Dr. Jefferson is not just a newbie computer scientist on election issues, having served on many election boards and task forces over the years.

What you so admire was just a rehash of the R. Doug Lewis article.

You don't get voter confidence by sticking your head in the sand. What you argue is that as long as you don't know anything about the system, as long as you don't know that they miscount, then voter confidence, through ignorance and misinformation is assured, so long as someone as blithely ignorant, such as the author of that piece, is telling you it's OK.

Let's see....misinformation = confidence

or

Information/education/secure systems = confidence

I'll take the latter, thank you.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. He should.......
......after all, the voting systems industry paid big bucks for a PR firm to come up with this line of BS. :)

Think back a few months ago to the teleconference that David Allen from Plan 9 Publishing sat in on.

R. Doug Lewis of the Election Center and representatives from every major voting machine manufacturer got together to discuss their strategy in an attempt to 'change the public perception' of the problems with our elections. What you are seeing is the result of that and subsequent meetings. These are the 'talking points' that were developed and that you will hear again and again despite their lack of merit.

Of course all of the problems with their product are minimized or just simply laughed off. They will laugh off the concerns of voters over the need for paper ballots and a verifiable audit trail and offer straw man arguments to bolster their viewpoint. (Punch cards were made of paper and we don't want to go there again! We use multiple levels of security!)

Voting activists and renowned computer experts alike are dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" much like the current administration dismisses the concerns of Nobel laureate scientists. Newsletters sent out by R. Doug Lewis's Electioncenter.org to the members of two prominent organizations that he helped found, the National Association of Secretaries of State and the National Association of State Election Directors will carry their talking points to all of the public officials responsible for our elections. Mr. Lewis is playing both sides of the field as an 'adviser' to our elections officials, (he has testified before many voting panels including the Congressional HAVA committee) while at the same time representing the interests of the electronic voting industry.

Is there something wrong with the way these systems are being fast tracked at taxpayer {AND VOTER!) expense by an administration that has come to power by it own questionable election and without any attention payed to the multitude of known failures and numerous warnings by top computer experts? You know there is.

Have laws been broken or voters disenfranchised by this technology? Again, sadly yes.

Is this a CONSPIRACY? :tinfoilhat: :scared: I honestly can't say. I can say that a careful investigation of the people and organizations involved on a 'follow the money' basis is warranted.

One mans 'conspiracy theory' is the basis for another mans RICO lawsuit! :evilgrin:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. which of his points do you think are good?
which of his points were not utterly debunked?

did you like "paper trail is no good because printers can be disconnected from the power source"?

what did you make of the rebuttal that according to that argument no electronic machines should be used at all?
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick because this is more important than.....
.....the Nader and Freeper threads on page 1 now. :evilgrin:

:kick:
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sonias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kick it for Austin and Travis County Texas
We've started our fight here in Texas folks, join in now. Thanks for the talking points Bev!

Read the activism thread for some details about our bbv reform push in Texas.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x5665


Sonia
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks for that link Sonia.....
.....I'll post any BBV stuff that's relevant to Texas as I run across it. :evilgrin:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ya'll ROCK!
I love Austin!
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Godspeed Andy and Bev!
:toast: :evilgrin: :thumbsup:

And thanks! :)
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. You are welcome for sure,
and thanks to you! Y'all are the reason for the visit.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
30. Excellent. Just reread it. Much better without a migraine.
Oh, and :kick:
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