Jerry Brown makes me sick!

[el_gato]

regarding the use of GPS for watching all city employess.
Notice how city council and Jerry aren't subject to this.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/SciTech/gps_employees_040221.html
"When you are a public servant, whether it is the mayor or a street cleaner, you belong to the people," Oakland Mayor Jerry Brown said. "We are the servants of the people, and they have the right to know where we are, what we are doing."

The mayor, however, is not being tracked. The union representing Oakland employees thinks the program is stacked against the little guy.

"Why isn't the city council being tracked on their daily activities?" asked Larry Hendel of the Service Employees International union. "Why isn't management? Why aren't department heads?"

[sweetheart]

1. we're running ahead here, eh?

The sound proposition is putting GPS systems on public (read PUBLIC) vehicles. If a vehicle goes amiss, is this not in the public interest to know? The employees speaking out are PUBLIC employees
who are paid by the PUBLIC in good faith not to steal from the PUBLIC, or to defaud the PUBLIC.

Perhaps those chaps would like to work in a call center and have a
person supervising them from a glass turret all their work hours and
monitoring all their telephone and computer use.

On a comparative scale, tracking public vehicles is no crime or
invasion of privacy. The workers are not wearing GPS units, they
are free to speak and do as will... and the result will be better
services to the PUBLIC.

There are many workplace violations of dignity and human rights,
but this does not strike me as one of them. If you had an employee
using your car, would you yourself not like a similar system?

Keep in mind that tracking vehicles allows project managers to better
schedule public resources, and to better tune PUBLIC services that
the PUBLIC get better bang for the buck.

Sounds more like you've got a personal issue with jerry brown.

[el_gato]

2. do you not even notice the double standard

I bet upper brass is driving around in state funded vehicles that are not tracked. And how about we the public being able to surveil those at the top of our government who are actually running the show? Notice
how they are exempt. This is not about protecting any of our tax dollars but a furthering of the orwelling police state.

Too bad you can't understand the nature of the problem sweetheart.
How about we place a GPS system on John Ashcrofts state funded vehicles so we can track his every move. You won't see that because the
reasons given for this type of surveillance apparatus are phoney.

[sweetheart]

6. Do the council and jerry drive public vehicles...?

I think not. The system is not for tracking labour, rather capital.

I agree with you on double standards, but when we bypass the hype
in this article, spun up by paranoid labour, i can't help but wonder
that the system is more for the public to get the best from its
investment, and given the incredible public waste in the country,
and the concerns over reforming public services to show efficiencies
like private companies do, what is the big deal.

Heck, FEDEX employees arn't comlaining about their GPS units, nor
are the UPS employees. What is so different.

Jerry and the council drive their private cars to work and are of
course not asked to participate.

How is this a double standard. I don't mean to be a hardass on this,
but there has been no evidence submitted to suggest ill intentions
in this article, only heresay from people about a new and different
way of working.

Sounds like luddite paranoia, does it not?

[el_gato]

10. You are trying to isolate this single instance

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040222/ap_on_re_us/terror_privacy_3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3510605.stm

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82%7E30730%7E1963334,00.html?search=filter

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8762089%5E2702,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1153964,00.html

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/02/23lotsofcamera...

But hey, I'm just an old dinosaur who advocates liberty.

[sweetheart]

19. Be coherent

Firstly, el gato, i am devils advocate, that your argument is glib,
not that you've not a very serious point. Based on this post,
you should have left your Jerry brown bashing out of it, and focused
on the real issue of the erosion of privacy rights in america.

The linkes point conclusively towards this, and i totally agree
with that conclusion.

Reading those posts to a conclusion that jerry brown is a bad guy
is fallacious.

The way republicans whip us to death is when we make fallacious
arguments next to real substantive ones.

By being loyal opposition in this thread, i'm asking you to be
coherent, and the 3rd party reader of the thread will better agree
with sound position.

You are not the only dinosaur who advocates liberty.

peace,
-s

[el_gato]

21. Stop focusing so much on Jerry Brown

When I used his name I had no idea someone would come on here
and act like the subject line was the sole point of this thread.
Maybe that was my mistake but my point is not exactly how much Jerry Brown sucks. Geez!

JB is a side issue.

[sweetheart]

26. point accepted, what to do with privacy erosion

JB is an unrelated issue.

Privacy erosion is quite serious. I hope you bring up this issue
in a separate thread, so we can discuss it in its full colour.

I agree that it is a complex issue, and i've not a grasp of a
solution... as our IT society google's people. It looks up their
driving records that have been nationalized. It shares police profile
information with other countries. It looks through your suitcase
on airflights and makes you remove your shoes in airports. A newspaper can slander you on page 1 and then retract the slander on
page 59 a week later, yet completely destroy your life and work
where you live.

These are very serious concerns that i have, and why i find america
not a place i want to live in at the moment, for those reasons.

[el_gato]

29. agreed and I am not optimistic

[mobuto]

7. Then fix the discrepancy

and order all vehicles to have GPS. But this isn't a problem on its face.

[blurp]

3. The job doesn't exist for you. It's there for the people.

You talk as if these jobs are some sort of gift to employees.

These jobs are there for the purpose of doing the people's business. That's the first priority. I think it's pretty obvious that these devices are being used because some employees have been treating these important jobs as a kind of "workfare" program.

F, that. These jobs are there for the purpose of serving the people, not employees that want to steal the public's money.

[el_gato]

5. will someone please think about the children!?!

Hey blurp, your same arguement can be made for those in higher levels of government but these devices are not being used track them.
Why the HELL not?

[camero]

4. GPS can be a good tool

It tells where you are when the vehicle breaks down or there is an emergency.

[el_gato]

8. Police State Infrastructure

all in the name of keeping you safe

Next people will be saying stuff like
"anal but probes make you safer"
"don't you want a chip implant, it'll help you if you ever get lost?"

[camero]

9. Cut the bullshit

I had a vehicle with GPS. If you break down in the middle of nowhere it can be a lifesaver. There's more of a danger with the corps using it than with Gov't employees.

[el_gato]

11. the corps are the government

in case you haven't figured that out yet

"cut out the bullshit" please stay civil

[camero]

23. Pick out a technology that is really anti-privacy

Such as drug urine tests, cameras in public places used to harrass protesters. GPS is not one of those technologies.

[el_gato]

28. GPS has been used against activist

Big brother under the bumper
http://www.notinourname.net/restrictions/big-brother-bumper-17jul03.htm

[camero]

33. Then it helps to know ways around it

GPS has an antenna. Wrapping the antenna in tin foil blocks the signal.

That article is an illegal use of GPS. I don't think it's harmful except in the wrong hands.

[Brian Sweat]

24. You're exaggerating.

If an employer wants to put tracking devices on their vehicles, that is their right. This includes the government.

It does not become a police state until they make us put them on our private cars.

[el_gato]

30. don't worry

we'll get there

[mitchtv]

40. more simply put

there is NO right to privacy in a co owned vehicle on company time.Nothing to argue about.

[el_gato]

41. straw man, NEXT

[sweetheart]

12. I think ALL vehicles should have GPS

and that it be used to apply road and congestion charging that
drivers are billed for all road usage. This way the drivers who
use the roads and make the traffic jams, pay a higher toll than those
who don't.

Such things can be achieved with privacy intact. If you use an airplane in america, you are tracked by a ??? beacon <name eludes me>. Why is driving a car different.

I once had a job on a manufacturing floor. We had to sign out our
tools at the beginning of the shift, and if we did not return them,
we were charged out of our paycheque for the tool. The idea was that
labour was responsible for the capital in its control

In a manner of speaking, it is a fair way of looking at things, yes?

The big brother state is the police/ homeland security stazi/ and
total information awareness... not a municipal government teching up.

[Mairead]

13. I agree: if anyone's going to be tracked, all should be tracked

The idea that the common wealth shouldn't be wasted is a very valid one, but the hourly stiffs aren't the only ones being paid from that common wealth. Brown should have implemented it top-down: first his vehicles are tracked, then those of his department heads, and finally those driven by the wage-earners.

But my perception of him is that he, like Kerry, has moved significantly to the classist right through the years. Only his rhetoric is sometimes still pro-equality and freedom, it seems.

[el_gato]

14. I lost repect for Jerry when he approved of shooting protesters

with rubber bullets

And yea, thanks for noticing the point of my post which is
how all this stuff is being used in a very classist way.

[sweetheart]

17. That is the first factual evidence

you've presented for disliking Jerry Brown. That subject sounds
more contentious and classist.

Tracking public assets does not.

The problem is that by crying "the sky is falling" when someone does
something bipartisan and sane like cutting corruption in local
government, you undermine genuine concerns of real invasions of
privacy and working rights.

It makes you chicken little. Perhaps you're better off going
back to first principals, and following up a claim that jerry brown
is a bastard with some real beef. The sky hasn't fallen. Some
workers are bent out of shape that their work practices are changing.

[el_gato]

18. creeping surveillance is a problem

whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

I suggest you go and read some of the articles I posted.

The right to privacy is fundamental.

Now as far as the Jerry Brown sucks angle; It's my opinion
but not really central to my concerns. Perhaps you like
him? I don't know and I don't care.

[sweetheart]

22. creeping surveillance

Somewhere in a military database, every word you've written on
the internet has been recorded. These can be used later to form a
terrorist profile on you. This creeping surveillance is indeed
a very serious problem, and i do not contest that at all.

But you did not title this thread "Creeeping surveillance is a problem" You titled it with your opinion on gerry brown and these
are not connected.

I agree 100% the right to privacy is fundamental... and having public
vehicles tracked is not in opposition to this.

THe problem is, as i see it, that by being glib and unfocused on
jerry brown, you dilute your main point which is quite substantive.
We agree completely about privacy.

We don't agree, that you can connect this to Mr. brown, as you
have not made any case for his being against civil work practices.

You'll have to link the thread to articles you want included in
your argument. Expecting readers to "know" that you have background
material somewhere is sorta expecting much.

I have great respect for your concerns about privacy and liberty, el gato. We share them.

peace,
-s

[el_gato]

25. I disagree with you

"civil work practices" is a gross mischaracterization as far as I am
concerned. Any single step can be labeled as being for the common
good. You can do this all the way to a total police state.
It is the totality of the problem and JB as far as I am concerned
is an enabler of this process. But again I didn't realize
someone would come on here and so single mindedly focus on the
minutae.

[sweetheart]

32. You sound a bit like a luddite

How far do you want to go backwards? IT technology has made
unprecedented contributions towards privacy erosion. *You* are in
many many databases that have no legal obligation to protect your
privacy. The very technology of that internet is what we use today
to discuss liberty and privacy erosion. Its a two edged sword.
I'd wager, that skinner and the DBA's have had to turn over
membership data at DU to the FBI without telling the members in
question.

You have not linked tracking public vehicles with privacy erosion
or any sort of labour law violation. THere is not a liberal
court in a western nation who would accept tracking public vehicles
during their working day as a privacy violation. There have been
no cases of labour abuse... its all heresay.

To call this the forefront of a privacy invastion is weak, as it
suggests that your other arguments for this truth are even weaker
or you would have used them in a more comprehensive essay on
privacy erosion from top to bottom.... "enemy of the state" and
all that kinda thing.

[el_gato]

34. Technology is not a neutral force

You can take one look at the world we are living in today
and see the effects of technology. You can call me a neo-luddite
all you want. In fact that label, if you have to use labels,
is somewhat appropriate. And yes, you can subsequently argue
that I shouldn't be on the internet and I should go live in
a cave but that does not negate the idea that technology is
an inherently destructive force.

By the way I did not call this particular instance the "forefront of privacy invasion" rather I presented the idea that it is merely another brick in the wall. You are, however, free to write your own well composed article on the subject.

[sweetheart]

36. I agree, and i see nothing wrong with luddites

They are good hearted folks... like yourself. It is not meant to
be an insult, rather it opens up the irony of our using the very
technology that undermines our privacy to rant about our privacy.

Between the two of us, likely i am more the luddite in an old stone
building in a remote area, learning how to farm, raise sheep and
be closer to the land.

I'll try to pen such an article... lemme have a think.

[el_gato]

37. about that irony

I've thought about that issue and the criticism is based
on the implied but false assumption that you get to choose
what kind of world you are born in.

By the way, from the research I've done it certainly
looks as if Hobbes was wrong.

[el_gato]

47. actually now that I think about it

I think the Luddite comparison is not quite apt.
My concerns go deeper than a reactionary
repsonse to the advance of technology and its effect
on my current situation.

[sweetheart]

50. mate, you gotta explain that

The luddites put their lives on the line to oppose technological
advance, and the industrial revolution... and here some 200 years
later, it turns out that very revolution has created unprecedented
misery to mankind and distruction to the planet.

They were, in a sense, very very right to be deeply concerned...
Is this reactionary?

This part of your post begs explanation:

My concerns go deeper than a reactionary
repsonse to the advance of technology and its effect
on my current situation.

[Brian Sweat]

27. I question the claim

that he approved of shooting "protesters" with rubber bullet.

My guess is that he approved of shooting rioters with rubber bullets.

[el_gato]

35. No surprise

useing labels like "rioters" is a common tactic
in a fascist police state

[Brian Sweat]

45. I think that you and I have a different definition of rioter.

I think people that run around trashing business establishments are riotors and if they get shot with real bullets or rubber ones they are asking for it.

[el_gato]

46. Yep, anybody who opposes bush is a "Rioter"

yeppers

[shance]

31. I agree. Jerry Brown had BEEN an activist and protestor

And yet, when he is given power, he turns and abuses it himself.

You can learn a lot about the calibre of a person when you hand them power.

I wrote him a letter expressing my dismay at his lack of empathy for the protestors who were also protecting his rights as well by engaging in a protest, which he himself had exercised in years past.

I never heard anything back. Not even a form letter. I thought the lack of a response reflected poorly on his office and administration as a whole.

Bad leadership all the way around.

[sweetheart]

15. Where does it say that the mayor has a public vehicle?

I think there is a confused illusion in this thread that jerry
brown's car is not his own car.

Road construction involves dispatching an expensive public vehicle
with a team of workers to location. These same people leave their
private cars back at the parking lot.

Nobody is talking about GPS'ing individuals or private vehicles here.

How we jump from that to surveillance of private individuals and
cars, i'm a little fogged on.

Tracking public assets is not a right or left issue. This
article is about luddites, not workers rights.

[el_gato]

16. As I said before (i.e. please read what I posted)

This is not an isolated incident and I used the example of John Ashcroft who happens to ride around in state owned vehicles as do many people who are at the top of our government. But these vehicles are not subject to this type of surveillance.

Furthermore, this also involves the issue of government secrecy in general. Why are these people subject to it yet Dick Cheney can hide papers involving a national energy plan? I'm pointing out the big picture here.

[Mairead]

38. It doesn't, but if he doesn't then he's one of very few such mayors

Actually, S, I just now read the article because I wondered if I'd gotten a mistaken impression from the bits quoted by eG. And in a way I had, but it was later when the vehicle issue came up. It's a little bit of a red herring, don't you think? Given that Brown claims that it's really employee behavior that's being scrutinised, albeit in an indirect way. His comment about public employees being accountable for their time shows where the focus is. But he and his department heads are also public employees, and making more money, too, per capita than the wage-earners who are being surveilled. That's what led to my comment, and I see no reason to backtrack.

Actually, I'm a little confused by the tack you're taking here. Did we read the same article? I get no sense of Luddism being the issue in the article/situation at all. What did I not see?

[sweetheart]

39. luddites and tracking assets

I once worked as a microfiche 411 operator for General Telephone decades ago. The company introduced a new system that better
tracked operator performance, and was able to fire some operators
like me, amongst others, based on seniority. The new system was
able to measure operator performance to a draconian level, as we
were compared by our time-per-call, not by our customer service.

I remember being angry at the new computer and wishing it smashed.
This is the very basis of luddism, no?

The article in this thread, similarly describes employees frustrated
by a technology system improvement that allows tighter focus of
resources and likely improves oakland's results per dollar in such
areas as road maintenance, and such.... the employee anger is luddism. From new york taxi's, to fedex trucks, there is a massive
technology improvement by installing GPS systems. The benefits
include amongst others, the ability to track location, status, speed
of travel (if caught in traffic) that a dispatcher can better shift
field resources.

Clearly, by the article's focus on accountability, there must be
cases of people taking liberties on the public dollar whilst collecting a paycheque from the taxpayer. I've worked hard for my
paycheque, why should a person working for the city where abuse
has occurred, get a free ride?

In road repair, it is manual labour time and materials. It takes say
2 hours and 3 workers to fill a pothole. If it takes the same group
repeatedly 5 hours, and all others 2, it begs investigation, no?
In good management, the job is not to do "time", rather deliver results... and certainly JB and his upper eschelon are measured by
different criteria, but just as harshly, as geez, this thread indicates. We don't get in a tiff about oakland workers taking the piss on the public dime... but jerry brown doing the same, makes him
accountable to the voter.

In this regard, job performance for a manager is entirely different, but no less invasive. Given that JB is the mayor and the big boss, he is simply looking for a performance measure to improve performance
in his large organization where the fat is a bit much.

Some construction workers were around my neck of the woods this past
year putting in a new water main. At the same time, i get a rate rise from scottish water. Then i see the crew sleeping off a long lunch in the heated cabs of expensive digging machines in a place
where they thought no one could see them (near my remote home).

It kinda pissed me off, to be charged extra for waste. Likely were
they able to get what they're paying for from their workforce, i
would not be getting a rate rise.

The article mentions citizen complaints of abuse... likely some boys
smoking a joint before going to the next job, or such...

Why do city workers get a break on thier performance, when jerry brown does not. If they screw up, they get fired. If he screws up,
he gets unelected. Each is held accountable. Sounds fair to me.

If you want to know where jerry brown is, call his office. He's
probably in oakland.

[el_gato]

42. The article can characterize the problem in one way

when the real issue is another, in fact that is a common practice with our media.


I do think it's kinda strange sweetheart how you have completely sidestepped the top down way the technology has been implemented.

[sweetheart]

43. and the issue sidestepped is workers rights?

Or is it luddism. Methinks its luddism. Why are people bent on
defending employees who are stealing from the taxpayer. This is
about reducing government corruption, and then people who've no
respect for the complexity of the entire issue, suggest universal
standards of job success.

By that approach, we should measure bush by how long it takes him to
sign a bill.. rather we're paying bush to make a wise decision
(the ultimate irony admittedly). However, a man with an asphault
pothole machine really does deliver by the hour, and measuring time
on the job is much more appropriate. Given that traffic, and
breakdowns are unpredictable, the GPS system allows those variables
to be removed from the calculation that time can be better adminsitered.

Jerry brown is measured by the health of all of oakland, from
its economy, to its crime rate. Time worked is totally useless
in determining these measures. Why misapply them. Likely, jerry
brown has all his phone calls recorded, unlike the road crews.

We all suffer under performance measures and they cannot be compared
between different classes of worker.

In my MBA programme, i had an entire course on setting performance
measures for jobs, compensation and motivation issues, and all sorts
of good stuff to get an organization to run with excellence. Of
course these things are implemented top-down. That is why we elect
jerry brown (not "we" but metaphorical public "we").. and we charge
him with getting oakland on the right track, not doing 8 hours a day.

I could give a toss whether jerry brown works a 5 hour day or an 8
hour one, or a 2 hour one from his resort house on maui... IF HE
ACHIEVES the results. That is the difference between management and
labour. One is responsible for the bottom line, the other in putting
in measurable inputs. To apply the measures inappropraitely is
bad management, and to measure jerry brown by how long his lunch
break is is not appropriate. Maybe it takes a 3 hour lunch to get
a major company to put 400 jobs in oakland.

[el_gato]

44. Straw man, the issue is living in a centralized surveillance society

and this is just one more step.
How many times do I have to point this out?

worker performance is the cover, just like
terrorism is the cover being used to destroy
our freedom.

Sheesh!

[sweetheart]

48. The game is up.

We live in a centrallized surveillance society and we are not going
back. The real issue is not that, but rather whether it is being
abused. Camera's on roadways across the UK are used to track
vehicle license plates that suspect IRA bombings and such can be
tracked and prevented by matching plates to supsect lists.

Cameras in city centers allow police to deter crime... as its a bit
hard to lie when its all on camera (like in rodney king)

If every policeman in the country had to have a tiny video camera
on thier pocket that recorded all thier activities, i'd call that
something of a victory, as it would certainly deter police violence.

Technolgy is a two edged sword and we ain't goin' back.

The solution is not to fight the tide. Akido. Move with your
attacker and use their own momentum to take them down. This means
public control of surveillance systems, strong privacy laws and
and indpendent privacy judiciary that adjudicates violations against
human rights:

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his
privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his
honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of
the law against such interference or attacks.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

The technology will keep encroaching. It is like the rising tide,
it cannot be stopped. The only way is to put the people's elected
government in charge of administering privacy legislation, and in
the more extreme case of having a government body administer
the data themselves.

Whilst i hear you complaint about surveillance society, methinks
trying to stop it is don quixote's folly. This is a job for
government.

The EU does a fairly good job at protecting privacy, much much
better than the US does for this very issue... yet it does not
really have the sort of regulator that i believe is necessary.
We need a FAST adjudicator that can administer privacy justice right
fast and correct injustice.... and/or apply MASSIVE fines for abuse.

[el_gato]

49. this apparatus has been put in place by & for the fascist corporate state

You will never gain control over it.

Later

[Mairead]

51. I get a sense of conventional outlook here :-) (which is surprising)

Yes, Brown is responsible for the city's overall functioning and (mainly in theory) won't be re-elected if he does a mingin job.

But we could construe an hourly work-crew's job similarly, if we wished. But we don't, in great part because of our received and entrenched views on class.

(Strictly speaking, your feelings about that computer that cost you your job weren't luddist--Ned Ludd's followers were being put out of work not because of impossible standards being set by some monitoring device as in your case, but because the machines themselves were doing the work. (I agree that the distinction is quite a fine one from your standpoint as a victim!))

And it seems to me that the road crew kippin is as much a management failure as a crew failure, don't you think? Why aren't management being measured on how successful they are at keeping the crews more interested in their work than in skiving off?

I think that if Deming were still around, he'd say that applying monitoring devices to labour is inappropriate and ultimately useless because it's a symptomatic treatment that doesn't address the actual problem, which will simply show up in some other way. Rather like the idea that taking away guns will prevent another Dunblane. It's a politician's 'solution': simplistic, showy, oppressive, and wrong.

[Cleita]

20. While criticizing Jerry Brown, think about if it was Arnold instead.

Accept your good fortune to have a Mayor who was a Governor who left the state of California with a surplus in the Treasury and not the mountain of debt Arnold is going to leave us with. Oh yes maybe after we kick Arnold out we can get Arnold to run for mayor of your city because I would like to see Jerry run for Senator.