You don't really want Liberal talk radio, do you?

[benburch]

Okay, folks...

At the end of this week, ie America Radio is shutting down, and we will be losing the Mike Malloy show. Now, I know you listen to Mike's show because I run the White Rose Society radio archives ( http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org ), and I see you listening in my server stats.

Mike refuses to attempt to move to a listener supported model for his show, and I used to try to argue with him. I pointed out The Guy James Show ( http://www.theguyjamesshow.com ) as an example of a successful listener-supported radio show, and was trying to convince him to take that route.

However, in the last two weeks, I have been communicating with Guy James about his show, and the financial problems he is having keeping it on the air and on the net. He is out of pocket thousands of dollars each and every month keeping his show going. The donations he receives are a pittance. And I mean that.

Not to diminish you if you are a donor! I am a donor to Guy's show, and I know there are a few dozen others who do what they can every month, but it simply is the truth that only a tiny, tiny fraction of his listener base are donors to the show.

If we, as a community, cannot support a single weekly talk radio show (and I'm talking only about the expenses here, not salary) how the heck could we ever support a daily show and pay a living wage to the hosts, or an entire network?

If Mike and I ever talk again about a listener supported model, I will tell him to run from the idea!

Unless... You can prove me wrong. You know how.

-Ben Burch
White Rose Society Webmaster
http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/

[Mika]

1. Hi, benburch

:hi:

How about talking about some numbers? Terms like "pittance" and "thousands of dollars out of pocket each and every month" just aren't descriptive enough.

How much money per week does it cost to run The Guy James Show and/or The Mike Malloy Show?

If we are to get serious regarding support for liberal radio, then we need some hard numbers to relate to. If some of us want to become investors in liberal radio then we need to be realistic and more specific as to how much its really going to cost.

Thanks

[benburch]

3. Fair enough

Guy says that he is out of pocket about $1000 per month for streaming, and $300 per hour for the studio and broadcast air time, which computes to $300 * 3 hours * 4.2 weeks per month = $3780 per month.

So, basically, we are talking $5000 per month once you throw in pizza and research costs...

And Guy takes in less than 10% of that in donations.

To employ somebody like Mike Malloy full time to do a show would be the minimum union rate at least, which is (I recall) $90,000 a year, and you have to add the other expenses of employing somebody to that like SSI, insurance, etc, so $150,000 is a reasonable number. Plus you would need to employ a producer.

Then you need the costs of a studio, probably $25,000 per year if you rent a tiny space and outfit it with surplus broadcast equipment.

And you need the phone lines; 800 numbers for caller, ISDN lines to the streaming provider.

And the streaming is not cheap. For a show like Mike's figuring 30,000 simultaneous streams, three hours a day, five days a week, we are talking $3000 per month at minimum.

If you ever hope to be on a real radio station, you also need an ISDN line to the satellite uplink.

And then you need to pay for the satellite time.

And then you need to think about marketing to radio stations to cover the cost of the expensive satellite time, so you need at least one sales guy.

I hope this puts it in perspective.

I can only maintain the White Rose on what I take in donations because I have a real deal on web hosting, and I do not do true streaming. Doing this on a professional basis is a LOT more expensive!

-Ben Burch
White Rose Society Webmaster
http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/

[bspence]

5. Couldn't he do his show from home?

Seriously. I mean, computers can do all kinds of crazy things nowadays.

Then again, I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

$1000/month for streaming is a lot of money though. Could he possibly buy his own server?

[benburch]

9. The data channel is the problem.

If you want to serve 10,000 24 Kbps streams simultaneously during a live show, you need a data channel that can peak out at 30 million bits per second.

A dedicated T1 line that peaks out at 1.5 million bits per second is around a thousand a month all by itself! Plus you need the streaming server, and the electricity and etc.

A streaming provider manages because they share the bandwidth they buy among all of the users they serve, and the usage for a given show peaks during that show, and is less at other times (when people are listening to archives versions.)

-Ben

[JanMichael]

4. airtime usually runs around $300/hr on decent stations in mid-sized...

...markets.

So Guy's show costs around $900, three hours, for just the radio broadcast.

The commercial cable line and streaming add perhaps another $1,000/1,500 a month.

[JanMichael]

2. We also need to understand that it isn't for us! It's for random...

...unaffiliated, underinformed, citizens. It's for the people sitting in a laundromat, waiting in a tire store, working in a convenience store, washing dishes in a restaurant kitchen, for truckers, etcetera!

Screw US. Preaching to the choir is helpful but the guy sitting in traffic wondering why his tech job just disappeared is IMHO more important.

[Mika]

6. Yep

" Preaching to the choir is helpful but the guy sitting in traffic wondering why his tech job just disappeared is IMHO more important.
"


Then we need a Dem sports show. ;-)


How right you are Michael. :thumbsup:

[JanMichael]

12. And we need Dem rock DJ's too.

ALL of the ones around here have taken on a "crank" tone which is basically just bitching about how "unfair" society is to simple crotch grabbing "morans".

[Drifter]

19. Then we need a Dem sports show ...

And we should call it the "The Best Dem Sports Show"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Cheers
Drifter

[havocmom]

20. "wondering why his tech job just disappeared..."

Seems like the neocon adgenda of making outsourcing the rage does more than just cut the cost of doing business... When folks are broke, they are not as likely to have resources to fund a true opposition.

I would love to give lots of bucks to lots of worthy endevours, but I make $## a week... as in not even $100.00. There are lots of folks out there who are sinking fast. Yes, they need to know the facts behind it all, but so many just can't write a check for shoes for the kids, let alone a radio broadcast. The battle is that bad.

editied cuz I didn't realize we can't use italics in a header

[nostamj]

7. i wonder if people just can't grasp the idea of paying for radio

even internet radio.

there's very little content (outside of porn) that requires payment on the net. even salon.com allows you to dodge a subscription with daily passes.

paying for TV we've come to understand/accept since the advent of cable, but paying for radio?

I wish I knew what the answer was.......

[benburch]

14. I think that is part of it.

Another part is that we Liberals give so much to so many different causes that we have almost bled ourselves dry. And we tend to be working-class folks, and so don't have huge sums to start with.

-Ben

[Tripper11]

8. I'm wondering about paid advertisers?

I have worked in commercial radio for a time and I am reading about how difficult it is to get these liberal shows up and running and keeping them running. So my question is, can't these guys get any sponsors? Advertisers to help defer these costs? Randi Rhodes seems to be doing fairly well, although I don't pretend to know her finances.
I produced a semi-successful sports talk show years ago, and we started doing a couple hours on weekends, cheaper air-time and slowly building our audience and advertiser interest. As the numbers grew and interest increased we were able to go to new advertisers and get them to lay some coin down. Once we got to a point, we were able to sell the show to the PD for a 5 day week commitment.
Is liberal radio a 3rd rail issue for advertisers or am I reading too much or not enough into it? Just curious and would love to help do my part as a person with a radio background.

[JanMichael]

10. It probably depends on the market. Here in SW Florida...

...businesses are shy about advertising on a Liberal, heavily political, show. They'll do the conservative ones because, well, Republicans outnumber us 3-2 here and there isn't one elected Dem in Collier County.

It's the Devil's backyard...

[benburch]

11. Until you have ratings...

... you probably don't have advertisers.

Once you have good Arbitrons on a real radio station, you can get the ad money.

The problem is bootstrapping yourself to where that becomes possible.

You *can* sell ads on internet-only radio, but advertisers are wary of it in the extreme. It is a tough sell, and the rates are nowhere near what you would need to cover expenses.

-Ben

[Tripper11]

13. This is why doing a weekend show....

is a good way to start....generate interest...the thing is, all the RW talkers are loud obnoxious assholes, and although I am certainly not advocating that for liberal radio, you do need a very charismatic loud n' proud host. I listen to Randi Rhodes a lot and she does the exact same stuff as the RW talkers, only for us. She is certainly NOT as obnoxious, she knows her stuff, and does debate "the other side"...but she does have that "thing."

[benburch]

15. One more factor...

When you give money to somebody through PayPal, only part of it gets to the person you sent it to. PayPal take out their fee, which is around 9%. Now, this is not an unfair fee. They clear the transaction for you and wire the money to your bank account, but it is sort of a hidden cost of doing business by that method.

-Ben

[ursacorwin]

16. i'm sorry to say this

because you seem to be a good person working for causes i care about. but i don't care about radio at all. further, i don't think a few "liberal" shows and stations here and there will make any difference. why? very simply, it's waaaaay too late to try to "compete" in the clear channel environment that is reality today. same for a "liberal" tv channel- what's one against dozens of right wing channels?

it's a losing battle, and a rigged game. until we see change via legislation, i don't see any point throwing money at this cause. i understand that we may lose a few fence sitters, but honestly- are we really losing that many? the kind of person who gets important political information from the tv & radio isn't likely to be affected by a few minutes of exposure to a liberal show.

i think there are other ways to get our message out. for me, the first part of that message is always, "turn off the tv." i believe we'll never really make progress unless we can convince a majority to do that. radio is a little different, but it's still the case that it's prepackaging information and simplifying the stories. i'd prefer people actually get out and look, see, do and think!

sorry to be dire.

[benburch]

21. I understand where you are coming from.

Totally. I do.

And I wouldn't want you to change what you are doing one iota.

But the evidence of the number of streams that get connected to Guy's show, and the number of people who will take the time to download a 31 Megabyte radio show from White Rose, tells me that there are a lot of people who do listen, but who are not supporting the medium they enjoy.

Now, I am doing OK at White Rose. I have a much lower cost structure than many similar efforts, and people have been wonderful about stepping up to the plate and helping with those rather modest costs though donation and through buying a few books from the Amazon links I present. (I've made $21 this quarter so far on books, and anything that gets more books into people's hands is A Good Thing to me.)

But I don't produce any media. And those people who do really need the help of those who enjoy the media we jointly present. And that is the point of my rant. All I want is for those who do think this is valuable to fork over the cost of a small pizza every month and support Guy's show.

Thanks for listening to me ramble... :)

-Ben

[benburch]

22. Oh yes...

Why do *I* listen to political talk radio? It is because I am so busy! I can listen to that and still be doing several other things. Yes, I know, classic ADHD. But I cope with my problem by multitasking.

-Ben

[Bandit]

17. I don't have much money and wish to put it where it does the most good

I think my donations to Moveon.org have a tendency to reach more people who aren't already in the fold. I love to listen but it is like preaching to the choir. Not many undecided voters tune in I'm afraid. We need a good comedy routine with a small amount of politics thrown in. We can't compete with the Right-wingers in this area because we don't have the mentality they do. We aren't into "in your face" confrontational material for sensationalistic purposes. Start a good comedy routine, get everyone in America laughing and then throw in a few zingers and we will have something. just my $.02 worth

[hexola]

18. Really - I don't!

I think talk radio is totally suited to the Conservative mentality...but totally unsuited for Liberals...that's why Lib-talk has always been a failure. Talk radio is first and foremost a marketing or "selling tool" Conservatives are buying...Libs aren't
It has NOTHING to do with the content of the program...

We don't really want our own "Rush" - do we. I don't.

By the same token - Conservatives would have little luck with an NPR-type format...