Ralph Nader on the Conservative Idiot List????

[Rationality]

First, let me say right now that I intend on voting for the Democrat candidate. There simply is too much at stake right now to vote for Nader like I would have done in 2000 had I been 18.

That said, I'm both shocked and extremely dissapointed to see the DU place Ralph Nader in the top two slots (!) on this week's conservative idiot list. Yeah, some here would argue he's leeching the liberal votes from us, but maybe that is because we, the Democrat party, have been a tad soft when taking Bush and the corporate Republicans head-on, and even more importantly, because we have had a track record since the 2000 elections of agreeing with the Republicans way too much. The PATRIOT ACTs? Voted in unanimously. The IWR? About half of the Democratic congressional and Senatorial membership - including John Kerry and John Edwards - went right along with it, with some like our 2000 VP candidate Joe Lieberman actively cheering the war on. During the 2002 elections, only one Democratic senator openly objected to the IWR during their elections, and we know what happened to Paul Wellstone.

Ralph's candidacy shouldn't provoke the Democrats to start spewing at one of our greatest dissenting reformers alive. He's not our enemy. Our enemy, as I said in one of my early posts, hides in an undisclosed bunker.

[kalian]

1. You bring up the very issues that I have been asking...

As Pat Buchanan stated, "both parties are xerox copies of each other."
Sorry...but I think America deserves a better political structure
and maybe the people HAVE woken up and are looking at a viable
THIRD alternative.

[RandomKoolzip]

9. Maybe "the people" in Berkeley.

Remember, there are far more moderates and people who are just plain apathetic about politics than there are idealistic Greens. This is a large country.

I say this as a former Green. And as a jerk who voted third party in 2000, back when the stakes weren't as high. I feel responsible for my mistake, and am now doing everything in my power to make sure people know the consequences of voting third party in the GE.

Local elections are the place for third party voters this year. Send a message on a local level if you are as pissed off about the state of things as I am. Remember, we are not dealing from a position of strength. The republicands own the House, the Senate, the Presidency, the SCOTUS, and the media. We gotta take the US back to the center first, before we take it to the left. In the meantime, don't fuck up MY future by voting third party just because the Dem candidate isn't ideologically pure enough for you.

[alittlelark]

72. As one of the people close to Berkely, I must protest

I know of only one person who will vote for Nader, and if he finally comes down from his 15 year buzz, he will probably change his mind.
My take on it is that Nader knows there will be no TRUE change w/o revolution - revolution could easily occur if * gets a 2nd term - his ideology can only come into being (W/in his lifetime) through a revolution.
Sure, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[blurp]

80. Don't feel like a jerk. It's the voting system you should blame.

I say this as a former Green. And as a jerk who voted third party in 2000, back when the stakes weren't as high.

People should be allowed to express their preferences more accurately when voting for president.

The current "one man, one vote" idea doesn't work. We should be able to say choice #1, #2, #3, etc.

A system that gives you just one shot to get it right is screwed up.

[LifeDuringWartime]

100. the march issue of scientific american has an article about just that

"a science of fair voting"

http://sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=000637A4-DDB5-101E-990A83414B7F0123

you cant read the whole thing online, but its only 5 bucks at the newsstand. it describes something similar to what you suggested, but alas i have not read the whole article yet.

[blondeatlast]

101. Always a pleasure, RKZ! You said it well--

the presidency is simply the beginning.

Although I'm very left and want the Dems to come to the party I grew up with, I could be persuaded to vote Green locally, but not for my Washington reps, YET.

I mean this sincerely--start as "local" as it gets; school boards, for instance. The fundies have been running roughshod over school boards for too long.

Mayoral races, city councils...look at DK. A great showing at the local level will have more impact than we think.

[roguevalley]

82. last time I looked our party was the party of diverse opinions. Every

time someone voices theirs about this man, people kick
them in the face. People have opinions, some of them
based on very principled takes on what he's done. Some of
us go back with Nader for thirty or more years. That
doesn't give him a pass when he's WRONG! He's wrong,
wrong, wrong, wrong. The day I cannot express that, since
it is based on my perceptions, my reading and thinking
and my education into what the parties and each other
stand for, then we stop being a party of diversity and
become the Repigs.

People can say what they feel about Nader. NO ONE has
the right to question them doing that. You can DISAGREE
but you cannot question their right to have and express
divergent opinions. Have you considered that some of us
KNOW RALPH PRETTY WELL?

Think about it for god sake.

[lazarus]

118. last time I looked

Nader wasn't in our party. Therefore he isn't helping our party. If he wants the Democratic party to be more liberal, he can join the Democratic party and pull it to the left.

If he wants to debate, there have been a bunch of debates held for two months now. Every Dem candidate has been invited. He'd have had a platform.

[chiburb]

141. Tsk, tsk...

Injecting logic here? I alerted on you!

[Zero Gravitas]

109. Surely

you don't really think that Nader is a viable alternative?

[donco6]

2. Disagree.

His positions on the Top Ten are very well deserved.

[bpilgrim]

4. is he a conservative

is he running as a republican or libertarian or somtin' :shrug:

peace

[donco6]

No, but the "idiot" part is worth two slots alone.

[Kinkistyle]

39. He's an idiot.

He has NO CHANCE of winning and will serve to hurt the only candidate with a chance of beating bush. He may not be a Conservative, but his idiotic move helps the Conservatives more than the Liberals.

[physaf]

120. Nader will serve to up the stakes for both

Bush and Kerry. They'll have to answer some important
questions that will simply go away without being asked.

[Maddy McCall]

3. Kudos to admin for placing Nader in this week's top 10

I couldn't agree more.

[Blue_Chill]

24. agreed

Admin for VP!

[Kahuna]

49. Agreed! Go Admins!

:toast:

[Lindacooks]

85. agreed

right on!

[Killarney]

106. AGREE!

[NNadir]

5. I think it's great!

I think the "millionaire enjoying his Bush tax cut" spiel needs to be repeated.

Nader serves no one but Nader. This has been true since the 1970's when he was breaking Unions in his sweatshop newspapers. What Nader has been is a sucessful liar.

Where the fuck was he speaking out against the war? Oh, while Al Gore was among the first to speak against it, he was checking out NBA officiating!

He deserves the #1 and #2 spots, and I applaud DU for this wonderful promotion of something the Nader-Repukes can't stand: The truth!

[Arugula Latte]

17. Sily misinformed you. Nader was a vocal opponent of the war -- I heard him

on the few occasions when cable TV let him on. And he wrote about it on commondreams.org and elsewhere. Maybe you need to realize that the Dems need a push to the left and -- while I'll vote for the bland war-supporting Kerry -- Nader could do just that. Push progressive ideas into the Dems as dean did. To suggest that Nader is a Republican dupe and a tax dodger is ridiculous. For more on my thoughts, if you care to know more, read my long post under "Why I think Nader is running." I'm number 18. Don't just react with a knee-jerk response like Bush and Co. do.

[physaf]

121. Your responses are well thought out

thanks for making them

[nostamj]

6. "He's not our enemy." ???????

that POS said that Gore would have invaded Iraq today on MTP

that was a hateful and repulsive lie and it was not delivered well at all. ie, he KNEW he was lying.

'r' knows that if he had not run, chances are Gore's victory would have prevailed and this hideous 'war' never would have happened... along with a trillion lesser bush atrocities.

he IS an enemy. listen to him (for a second) and then IGNORE him.

[physaf]

122. I don't know if it is proper to characterize it as a "lie" ...

but it certainly is in doubt.

[MurikanDemocrat]

7. I just read them. Both entries about him are true.

He's running for an opposing Party. That makes him an enemy. His presence helps Bush. That makes him a Bush enabler.

What do you expect from DEMOCRATIC Underground?

[Wickerman]

36. agreed

the listing worked for me. Thanks Admin

[Captain Absolut]

47. ah,

so them versus us...just like the terrorists

[Kahuna]

50. Uhhh. In elections, it kinda works like that.

:wow:

[MurikanDemocrat]

81. Yes, exactly

There is no reasonable argument otherwise.

Let me explain this to you.

This is going to be a close election. Either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party is going to win. Nader seeks to drain votes from the Democratic side, fully aware that he has no chance of winning. That is helping the Republlican Party, and increasing the chance of a Bush win.

Yes, Nader IS opposition, an enemy. He also happens to be a fucking asshole and a liar to boot.

[Robin Hood]

83. Umm, that's what Ralph is doing.

[Syrinx]

8. I'm not familiar with the Democrat Party

Where can I find some information on it?

[City Lights]

98. Nor am I.

Hearing about the "Democrat" party is like hearing nails drag across a chalkboard.

[Arugula Latte]

10. You are a thoughtful young voter who has obviously studied history ...

and I applaud and agree with you. Ralph Nader is a true American hero and patriot -- in the truest sense of the word. I voted for him in 2000, proudly, but will vote for the Dem in 2004 simply because the Nazis we have in the West Wing are so much worse than the kerry pansies and war supoorters. For much more, see my response post under "Why I think Nader is running" (scroll down and hit "more"). I'm number 18. Thanks for the rationality!!!!!

[NightTrain]

23. As such, he has no business posting to DU!

:evilgrin:

[Rationality]

66. You're welcome Oregonian

I knew someone here would understand. Same to FDRrocks and NightTrain.

[Camaro]

11. I think the admin needs to place himself on the list next

No I am not going to vote for Nader but calling him conserative is nuts! I guess none of you remember all the stuff Nader fought for.

Nader has been responsible for at least eight major federal consumer protection laws. These include the forming of OSHA, vehicle saftey laws, and safe drinking water laws.

[FDRrocks]

16. That doesn't matter here...

It's memes and invective. Fun stuff.

[mac56]

110. Yes, he's done many wonderful things.

But now he's hurting us. What is hard to understand about that?

[Blue_Chill]

12. I can't believe they put that great man on that list! I am outraged!

I lied I'm not. That bastard belongs there HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

SCREW YOU NADER!!!!!!! :D

[Kahuna]

51. I knew you lied.

:evilgrin:

[Blue_Chill]

112. hehehe

:evilgrin:

[AVID]

13. idiot is too soft a characterization . . .

idiot very stupid - also: asinine, backward, batty, blind-witted, birdbrained, crazy, daffy, dim, empty headed, fatuous, foolhardy, foolish, harebrained, imbecile, inane, insane, lunatic, moronic, senile, senseless, silly, simple, slow, squirrelly, thick-witted, unintelligent, unwise, vacant, vacuous, weak.

take your pick : insert nader pic

edit to add - senile

[FDRrocks]

14. Agreed, that pisses me off.....

People say "Ralph holds stock in this" "He does this" ...

WELL, Democratic Underground, hold the Democrats up to the same standards. Ralph is Conservative. Yea. And the Democrats are Liberal.

[NightTrain]

15. Thank you!

When I saw Nader's picture on the homepage's link to the Conservative Idiots page, I did something I had never done before: I boycotted the Top Ten. Knowing that it would bring me to nothing but a spewing of hate-filled vitriol against arguably the most important private American citizen of the 20th century, I simply could not being myself to click that link.

While I would have preferred that Nader not run this year, it still breaks my heart to see such invective being directed at the man, particularly by people who weren't even born when he began his life's work of making America a better place for all of us to live in. It reminds me a lot of the racist ranting in which my late father engaged during my childhood and teen-aged years. Rather than looking inward and assessing his shortcomings, my father instead believed that his perceived failures were the fault of the "niggers," the "faggots," or the "women's lib lesbians." Kinda like far too many of my fellow Democrats blaming Nader for every problem the party has had since 2000!

Fundamentalist wacko as Attorney General? Well, if Al Gore were president, that wouldn't have happened. Goddamn that Nader! Gutting of the Clean Air Act? Well, if Al Gore were president, that wouldn't have happened. Goddamn that Nader! Arsenic in our drinking water? Well, if Al Gore were president, that wouldn't have happened. Goddamn that Nader! Tax breaks for the rich? Well, if Al Gore were president, that wouldn't have happened. Goddamn that Nader! Unprovoked wars against Afghanistan and Iraq? Well, if Al Gore were president, that wouldn't have happened. Goddamn that Nader!

"Nader" is the Democratic Party's version of the GOP's "Clinton's penis." And it's gotten old! :boring:

[FDRrocks]

20. (((Night Train)))

Found the words I've been searching for all night.

[NightTrain]

30. Always glad to help!

Particularly since you're a fellow admirer of FDR--a true liberal Democrat, as opposed to the piss-poor excuses with whom we've been stuck for most (if not all) of my 37 years. :yourock:

[MsUnderstood]

44. DO NOT BOYCOTT the top 10 list and disparage it.

How can you critisize the information before reading it? If you boycotted the top 10 list then you missed the CRUCIAL Nadar info: HE LIED ABOUT AL GORE.

When asked "would gore have entered a war with IRAQ nader said yes!

Okay, we know that BUSH planned war with IRAQ the first quarter of his appointment. We know intelligence data was skewed by the Bush Administration to promote hatred and bloodlust for IRAQ. We know the BUSH administration had a score to settle with Sadam come hell or high water.

If Gore was in office:

1) 9-11 would not have happened (he wouldn't have had month's vacation the first year in office)

2) If 9-11 happened, it would have been less severe--he would have mobilized the military and ordered all planes down

3) After 9-11 happened, he would NOT have let OSAMA BIN Laden's family leave the country

4) AFter 9-11 Gore would not have gotten tired of fighting terrorists and began a fight with a dictator.

For NADER to say GORE would have entered IRAQ is TRUELY IDIOTIC. I respected NADER in 2000. Now I find him politically repulsive. Stop beating the Dragon with 2 heads drum NADAR.

[NightTrain]

52. I'm not disparaging the Top Ten; I'll start reading it again next week.

You know, when it gets back to attacking the REAL enemy.

[Kahuna]

55. Nader is an enemy to "Democrats." This is a Democratic..

forum in support of Democratic candidates. I don't really know why you're so surprised.

[DennisReveni]

103. Clinton's policy was

"For NADER to say GORE would have entered IRAQ is TRUELY IDIOTIC. I respected NADER in 2000. Now I find him politically repulsive. Stop beating the Dragon with 2 heads drum NADAR."

Clinton's policy was regime change. If you listen to Nader he did claim it would be in a different way.
Were you bitching about those daily bombings of Iraq? Harming nothing but innocent women and children.
Were you whining about Clinton's fear mongering on Iraq, when they knew nothing was there? They did have the UNSCOM people spying for them after all and Hussein Kamal's testimony.
Could it be Clinton was returning a favor to the arms industry for the donations to the Democratic party?
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/arms/
"Early on, Clinton required our diplomats to shill for arms merchants to their host countries. The results were immediate: During Clinton's first year in office, U.S. arms sales more than doubled. From 1993 to 1997, the U.S. government sold, approved, or gave away $190 billion in weapons to virtually every nation on earth.

The arms industry, meanwhile, has greased the wheels. It filled the Democratic Party coffers to the tune of nearly $2 million in the 1998 election cycle."

Aren't they only ones to benefit from the massive bombing campaign?
If Democrats would only wake up to the fact that they are half the problem, then there would be no need for a Nader run.
If you aren't half the problem, then why has Bush gotten everything he wanted since 2000? Why have you lost on every issue? Why did so many Dem's defect and vote for Arnold?
I plan to vote for Nader, and any third party candidate for any office on the ballot.
I will not ever vote the lesser of two evils.
No matter how scared that lesser is.

[Djinn]

160. as someone who gets to utilise preferential voting

it's hard to understand the vitriolic abuse Nader's copped over the last few years - Bush didn't win because Nader ran (ignoring the fact that Bush actually DIDN"T win but we'll pretend for argument's sake that he did) don't blame Nader blame all those who voted for Bush and all those who hated Bush but couldn't be arsed voting at all.

As for what would or wouldnt have happned under Gore - we'll never know - but I wouldn't be a certain as some in thinking under the Dem's it would have all been peace and love - ask the Serbian's how much of a pacifist Clinton was, or the people of Sudan after the bombing of the Al Shifa plant causing untold deaths and suffering.

Given that almost all Dem's supported the war why wouldn't have Gore done the same thing?

[Tinoire]

45. Thanks NightTrain. Thanks a lot. My thoughts too. n/t

[Kahuna]

53. A pity party for Nader? Excuse me if I don't join.

THOUSANDS dead because of that man. Our civil liberties gone! A potential draft to fight more wars and finish the PNAC agenda. And you want to have a pity party for Nader? Unbelievable.

[NightTrain]

56. Since you can't tell the difference between pity and simple respect...

...I can't possibly take your opinions seriously. Sorry!

[Kahuna]

75. He is responsible for too much destruction to be deserving

of respect. Sorry.

[physaf]

124. What destruction do you think he is responsible for?

Last I looked, he was very valuable in forcing a degre of honesty in this government.

[Forkboy]

64. I doubt you even really give a shit about that stuff

after this gem;

Kahuna (1000+ posts) Sun Feb-22-04 10:04 PM
Response to Original message

38. I hope you still think it's funny when bush pushes his anti-gay


agenda through. I'm straight. It ain't gonna bother me.

[Kahuna]

89. Let me explain, "not bother," Personally, it will affect

me. But I do care about how it affects those whose lives it will affect. I hope that I don't let the attitudes of some on DU change that. I do fear that could happen.

I have to ask myself, why am I so concerned when those who will suffer the most under bush don't care? So, if I see an attitude among the anti-Democrat protesters who will suffer a draft and anti-gay legislation, I do think they should lead the charge against bush instead of enabling him.

So think what you want, Forkboy. If you think you can gleen from one post a person's entire philosophy, I can guarantee you that you cannot. And you ought not to make that mistake.

[Forkboy]

165. I think you're full of it

I hope you still think it's funny when bush pushes his anti-gay
agenda through. I'm straight. It ain't gonna bother me.

Not many ways to take that Kahuna.Yeah,you're a real friend to the GLBT community.You concern is touching.

[Djinn]

161. that's right

it's Nader's fault not all the americans who voted for Bush or didn't bother voting?

Get the same argument here sometimes, although we vote in order of preference you pretty much know that eventually the counting comes down to two parties and therefore a third party vote is "waste" or "helping the enemy" There is almost zero differences between our Labor and Liberal parties anymore but if I don't want to vote for "pro-trade", economic rationalist private/public partnership pushing bunch of middle aged middle class white men, and pick a third party I'm "helping the conservatives" or "wasting my vote" actually I'm taking part in a democratic process and the people that say otherwise would seem to me more comfortable with facism.

[Alenne]

18. Look who's being a tad soft

I guess we should all join Nader in a rousing rendition of Kumbaya and wish him much success on his presidential run. He is the opponent and we shouldn't be playing nice with him.

[feistydem]

35. Kumbaya - Ha! Now that's funny!

Good one Alenne.

[Bluzmann57]

19. And once again...

Ralph Nader did not cost Gore the election in 2000. The voter rolls in Florida were illegally purged. Most of those people would likely have voted Democratic. Gore wasn't the strongest candidate the world has ever seen. Please get it through your heads people, not everything bad is a conspiracy. Nader has as much right as any other citizen to run for elected office. Normally, the idiots list is just fine, but this one I have to disagree with. It seems that paranoia has gone wild here in DU. A better candidate for the list; Andrea Zinga,R, who is running for the Congressional seat in the 17th district of Illinois, currently held by Lane Evans. She has repeatedly attacked the fact that Mr.Evans has Parkinson's Disease and claims that he cannot do his job. He has been present for about 95% of all votes, which is better than nearly any other congressperson. That sounds like he is doing his job to me. Ah well, like all other people, I guess that the admins here at DU can't always be right. Bottom line, Nader shouldn't be on the list once, let alone twice, but since a lot of people are convinced that its Dems or nothing, I guess we just have to accept what is. He may not even make the ballot in all states anyway, unless the Dean people support him. If that happens, then it could be disastrous for the Democratic nominee.

[Blue_Chill]

22. They stole it but

Ralph was the one who left the keys in the ignition and the door unlocked. We lost states by less then the votes he selfishly and pointlessly took to make a point.

[Arugula Latte]

25. Thank you for you common sense and intelligence. Nader should be admired

not vilified. I won't vote for him again but I'm glad he will bring up important issues and maybe, maybe, make John Kerry act like a true Democrat and not a war-supporting, welfare-reform-voting DLCer.

[Blue_Chill]

32. admired? Yup I'll put right next to Hannity on my least admired list

I can't decide which one attacks the democrats more but Nader does more damage.

[FDRrocks]

34. How does Nader do more damage?

Does he have a nationally syndicated radio show I don't know about?

[Blue_Chill]

38. How many democrats have you met....

that listen to Hannity and say "You know that guy makes a lot of sense!" None....well maybe one guy...after a car accident or something.

Nader on the other hand does his best to leach off our base and did IN FACT play a major role in putting Bush in office. He took more then enough votes to seal the deal in Florida and elsewhere.

[FDRrocks]

41. I read on this very site...

that there were voting irregulaties in other states. I have met no Democrats that say Ralph makes sense. But I will say that your question is loaded, since Hannity makes little sense.

[Kahuna]

57. Whatever. He still is working against us. That's the point.

He wants bush to win. Ergo, he's a conservative idiot.

[DiverDave]

99. You REALLY believe that nader didn't

have any effect on the outcome??

Put down the bong and get this stright,

The votes that Gore got would have been WAY to many for the rethugs to STEAL THE ELECTION!!!

You don't see that?

[wellstone_democrat]

105. Two words: New Hampshire

and Florida *might* not have been stolen if he hadn't drained so many votes in his vanity run.

[LoneStarLiberal]

21. A Vote for Nader Is A Vote For Bush (If He Changes Your Vote)

If this were 2000, I probably would have whole heartedly agreed with you.

However, in this election cycle, anyone who will take even 1 vote that would have been cast for the Democratic nominee and have it cast instead for themselves is a literal accomplice of George W. Bush and his re-election campaign.

If you weren't going to vote Democratic in the first place, no harm. But for every vote that would have been cast for the Democratic nominee that is instead cast for Raplh Nader, I hope that Nader has one sleepless night for the each one. Because each one of those votes for Ralph Nader is actually two votes: One for Nader, and one for George W. Bush.

[Woodstock]

28. he already said he lost no sleep over 2000 - he doesn't have a conscience

Go to hell, Nader.

[Woodstock]

26. Good for DU, right on, applause, way to go, amen

I love what they did with the top 10 conservative idiots.

Nader is an honorary conservative and he is without doubt an idiot.

[feistydem]

27. I don't think Ralph is a conservative ... but he is an idiot and ..

a serious narcissist.

No one was begging him to run. Even The Nation magazine begged him not to.

What was that ridiculous word he kept using? Liberlistas? Something like that. Who the hell is he talking about, anyway?

[leftofthedial]

29. some WOULD say

that Democrats have been soft. Those who vote for anyone other than theDemocratic candidate belong on the Idiot list with Sir Ralph.

[Doomsayer13]

31. Nader has declared himself an enemy to the Democrats

Remember, this is still Democraticunderground. Nader has made it very clear that he's against the Democratic agenda and opposed to the idea of Democrats. There is no reason why Democrats shouldn't retailiate. Even though he may not be conservative, he's still an idiot. He's playing into their hands and deserves to be on the list.

[bvar22]

33. Conservative Idiots list?

I think not.

[Doomsayer13]

37. Yup

http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/144.html

[Robin Hood]

40. Dean addressed DU's anger and look where it got him.

Perhaps the DLC has to play to a wider audience then that which Dean or Nader can attract. Bush is pandering to his base and it will and is biting him in the ass.

You have to be all things to all people in this game. We are a rainbow of colors, not just red.

[Unknown Known]

42. Isn't it amazing how the true believers still defend this POS?

They keep swallowing his crap and he makes out like a bandit! St. Ralphie gives 80% of his Wall Street earnings to progressive causes although he never lets anyone see his financial statements, but the faithful continue to believe in him. Ralphie wouldn't lie!

And Ralphie lives like a monk in a cardboard house and still drives a VW bug!

This time he gets no passes - I want his financial statements open just like everyone else's and I want a complete investigation into this guy's private life. He's a public figure who's running for President for the umpteenth time and if he thought it was OK for Clinton to be impeached for lying about sex than I want to know about Ralphie's sex life too.

[furrylitldevil]

43. I don't know about idiot

and he is certainly no conservative, but he should have known not to run this year. It's a different climate from the last election, whatever point he is trying to make will be lost on the people he's most trying to make it to. A lot of Dems (and a lot of people in general) obviously see the same things Nader does, and yes, they do want a change, but we're at a point in America where we need to stop the bleeding that the Bush Admin has crated on all fronts. Containment first, then let's worry about improvement.

Or, if you are an unconvinced Green, we have to look at the bigger picture before we can institute any major change. Lesser of the two evils for now, Good vs. Evil another day.

[Rowdyboy]

46. Sorry

He is the enemy. Hate to say it but he is. He made this happen, not us.......

[The Zanti Regent]

54. He IS the reason my nephew's life has been ruined.

Nader let his neocon pals run wild.

They sent my nephew Jonny to Iraq and all Jonny got was a bullet in his neck that cut his spinal cord and left him quadraplegic.

23 years old and his life is ruined.

Thank you, Ralph!

[Rationality]

59. Sorry about your nephew, but...

Nader has neocon pals? Nader sent Jonny to Iraq?

Talk about misplaced anger!

[Forkboy]

61. yet you support Kerry

:eyes:

[Kahuna]

65. Bush didn't need Kerry's permission or vote to go to war...

If bush were not in office, there would be no war. So, yes. Nader is more directly to blame than Nader is.

[Rationality]

68. Nader is more directly to blame than Nader is?

By the way, whether Bush needed Kerry's vote or not is irrevelent. Kerry voted for "a process." To be fair, he was probably aiming to mau-mau rather than invade Saddam's Iraq, but he enabled the war by failing to see what Bush would do with the IWR.

[Forkboy]

69. And Kerry wants 40,000 more

so we can have even more stories like this one about his nephew.

[Kahuna]

70. And bush will give you a draft. Count on it!

He needs more grunts to get his oil wars on.

[Forkboy]

74. So what's Kerry's excuse?

[Kahuna]

90. Did you miss the part about bush not needing Kerry's vote...

to go to war? Bush didn't need anyone's vote. The whole Iraq War Resolution vote was a political ploy for the 2002 congressional elections. Did you forget about that? He just wanted an issue to use against the Dems for the elections to try to label them soft on national security. Yes, Kerry AND Edwards fell for it. But the point is, bush could have attacked Iraq with or without congressional approval.

[Forkboy]

164. Exactly

kerry and edwards fell for it...and that moment of stupidity has cost thousands of lives.

[Kahuna]

62. I am so sorry about your nephew. I too think Ralph is

as responsible as bush is. Afterall, who couldn't realize that two oilmen in the WH would lead to oil wars???? Duh?

[Djinn]

162. You clearly support a man

who supported the war completely until it became politically expedient to criticise it????

[Kahuna]

48. Well that does it! The Dems don't want my vote!

Wait. Did that make sense? :crazy:

[tedoll78]

58. He deserves it.

I'm encouraging folks to refer to their feces as Ralphs.

Excuse me, I have to go take a Ralph..

[Rationality]

60. Do you plan to do it in the Bush?

Or are you too busy shitting on Ralph?

[tedoll78]

63. I refer to other things as Bush.

Nader gets a single special term because he's so special.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. He has earned his place there rightfully with the qualifications provided

They said they weren't sure about the conservative part but they were sure he is an idiot. I am well aware of Ralph's work as a consumer advocate. I am well aware of the issues he has with our current Washington culture and agree fundamentally with some of them.

That said, when somebody risks the common good to prove a point, they are a selfish, narcissistic idiot as is referenced by his suggestion in '00 that it needs to get worse to get better. It is easy for him to say. He isn't as destitute as some of the people for whom he claims to advocate. He also doesn't have a great track record as a gainful employer himself. Reform begins in your own business and dealings with employees.

There is a litany of things that Nader has said and done in recent years that make him more of an enemy to what he claims to stand for than an advocate and the specific lies listed in the article are valid.

Therefore, I fully concur with his rightful place at the top of this week's list and it was sufficient to warrant TWO SEATS.

Good work DU :toast:

[Sandpiper]

71. For those of you who choose to defend Nader

This is for you



Nader belongs on the Top Ten List because he's become a dupe for the bad guys, wittingly or unwittingly.

Nobody's happier about Nader's candidacy than this guy.

[Kahuna]

73. Nader supporters want bush to win. Don't you get it?

Until the vast majority of Democrats knuckle under to the demands of a miniscule minority of the general population, Dems must suffer for their sins. :eyes:

[Sandpiper]

76. I hate to paint with broad strokes

But it seems that Nader's biggest defenders/enablers are a bitter minority who had their feelings hurt when their candidates were rejected by the overwhelming majority of dem voters.

False friends are no better than enemies.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

87. If this "miniscule minority" is such a concern...

why aren't the dems trying to bring THEM into the fold by shifting to the left? Why do they continue to move to the right in order to gain votes that do not even account for the votes they lose by doing so?

Surely the LEFT wing party should be more concerned about keeping LEFT wing voters on its side, than gaining a few RIGHT wing voters?

[Kahuna]

91. They are free to accept the Democratic party or not..

accept it. I don't think it's realistic for them to think that the Democratic party or the Republican party will turn itself upside down to accomodate the platform of a "miniscule minority."

[Devils Advocate NZ]

154. Yet this "miniscule minority" can lose the election for the Dems?

Why is it RIGHT for the Dems to court right wing votes by throwing away left wing votes? I just don't get it! Either the "moderate voters" are more than enough to account for Nader votes, in which case Nader can not cause the Dems to lose the election, or the "moderate voters" are an even MORE MINISCULE MINORITY.

It is simple maths - if the Dems lose more votes to Nader than they gain from running to the right, THEN WHY RUN TO THE RIGHT?

[ProgMommy]

77. Nader could help define Kerry

Hi, I am brand new to DU and this is my first post. Let me introduce myself. A am a stay home Mommy of 3 who is a political junkie as well. Bare with me if this point/theory has already been made. I was (am) a staunch Dean-supporter becuase IMO he was the only true anti-war candidate. Perhaps Nader entering the race will force Kerry to become more clear on his IRAQ position - and become the clear anti-war choice. I am sure I'm not the only one who thinks Kerry has been a bit cloudy on exactly where he stands. His voting record is spotty. Maybe Nader will be a good thing for the party - pulling it back the left instead in the center. What do you all think?

[FDRrocks]

78. Welcome to DU!!!!

:):):):)

[ProgMommy]

79. Thanks

A feel a bit overwhelmed. Looks like everyone here has been posting for quite a while. Glad I finally found you all.

[Orangepeel]

117. Welcome to DU, ProgMommy!

Glad you jumped in! Don't worry about the post count. You'll catch up eventually!

:-)

[Tinoire]

84. I think you don't know the Democratic candidates very well

Dean was the only true anti-war candidate?
Kerry...become the clear anti-war choice?
a bit cloudy?

Where have you been getting your news? And did you watch any of the Democratic debates? For a political junkie, your post is a bit surprising.

[Pithlet]

163. So,

Someone is only a political junky if they agree with you? I don't know if I'd agree with everything she said, but that is a rather harsh welcome.

[Tinoire]

166. Harsh? Click on the profile and tell my how harsh that was

After a few years here you can see them coming from a mile away. There is NO way a political junkie wouldn't have heard of Kucinich & Sharpton or who would have said that Kerry could become the clear anti-war choice. I leave it at that but there are a few other indicators in that post.

We've been getting lots of "stay at home mommies" lately. The fun is reading the little scenarios they cook up on other boards and watching them come over here. But your kindness and willingness to stand up is noted (positively).

[Cat Atomic]

86. I agree with you, Rationality.

I think it's disappointing to see such an attack on Nader. He stated his intentions in 2000. He wanted to steer the Democratic party leftwards.

People here are constantly bitching about moderate, pink tu-tu Democrats, but as soon as someone stands up and attempts to hold their feet to their fire, he's either "unelectable" (like Kucinich), or he's a conservative idiot.

[Iverson]

88. Accuracy doesn't matter.

Denunciation is the moral imperative here. The work of accurate and relevant critique is incidental.

See also: Hillary bashing.

[SaddenedDem]

92. No harm, no foul

It just diminishes DU - and the single traffic creator of the site.

It makes DU look stupid, self centered and so over the top as to diminish nearly 3 years of working against the Bush administration. One self serving column, borne out of fear of answering the important questions of the day, negates all the previous work when readers just quit coming over something so petty, ridiculous and obscene.

Defining Ralph Nader as "conservative" defines DU as partisan - first, foremost and forever.

on edit:
I have to say one more thing - you'll never sell your product (the Johns) by telling the customer how BAD your competition is. You have to tell the customer how GOOD yours is.

[Sandpiper]

155. LOL

Defining Ralph Nader as "conservative" defines DU as partisan - first, foremost and forever.

DU is partisan? :wow: What was it that clued you in? Perhaps the name DEMOCRATIC Underground?

[union_maid]

93. Made my morning!

Thanks to the administration for placing Ralph Nader right where he belongs!

[BiggJawn]

94. Who does he "Advocate" for?

Energy prices keep skyrocketing., where's Ralph? Were was Ralph when Enron broke? Face it, the only "Consumer Advocacy" I can recall Nader doing is a book almost 40 years ago called "Unsafe at any Speed" that helped cause the demise of the Chevy Corvair.

The only thing I hear Ralph "advocating" is "Vote for me, because there's no difference between Bush and the Democrats."

He's furking nuts, if he thinks Al Gore would have put us in the same mess the Chimp has.

And like i said in another thread, you take GOP money for your campaign, you're GOP.

YOU see the danger of voting for Nader, but my fear is that there are people out there who may be voting for the first time and do not realize that the 2004 election is a battle for America, and is NOT the time to be idealistic. Let's get this country on the mend first, then start "The Social Experiment".

[Loonman]

95. Nader's ego is running for president

n/t

[Zynx]

96. Agreed. He belongs on that list as a right-wing enabler.

[DennisReveni]

104. I guess

""Agreed. He belongs on that list as a right-wing enabler."
Posted by Zynx"

I guess those 23 Democrats voted IWR belong there as well. So do the ones who voted for Patriot, tax cuts, and the rest of Bushco policies.
When will they be making the list?

[Blue_Chill]

144. If they become sore losers and try to play spoiler

You will find them on the list. Until then enjoy the Nader backlash. Last time people went soft on him, this time they know what he intends to do and won't sit quietly while he helps bush again.

[DennisReveni]

97. Ya Know

Ted Rall recently pointed out that Democratic Congress people vote Republican 80% of the time.
The problem is the idiot cheering crowd of partisan Democrats. The ones who fail to see the flaws of their own party, but are willing to see the flaws in everyone else.
300,000 Democrats voted for Bush in FLA 2000, and 1.1 million gays voted for Bush, but Nader is the one to fear. Just how does that make sense?
The question Democrats SHOULD be asking themselves is; If their party represents the peoples best interests, then why do they FEAR Nader?
Clearly if you were the best party to vote for, then you would not worry about a fringe element draining votes away.
Does anyone see the same type of fear from the Republicans toward the Libertarians?

[Lost4words]

102. Nader as an advocate for public safety did some good things,

but those days are clearly long gone! It must be the result of his stroke or his wealth $$$$$$$$$$. He earned his spot in position 1 and 2 of Conservative Idiots.

[ProfessorGAC]

107. Dems/D+ Repubs/D-

That's what he said. If he is still holding to that mantra, then he still has me seeing him as the opposition. If he still thinks, after 3 years of this, that the differences between Dems and Repubs is that slight, than i would suggest he is paying insufficient attention.

I don't know that i'd call him a conservative, but this end run at the top spot is divisive and, indeed, idiotic. It's a quixotic effort and waste of cash. We don't have the luxury of sacrificing good on the altar of perfect.

I wouldn't vote for Nader at gunpoint.
The Professor

[OhioStateProgressive]

108. Nader hate sickens me...I suppose the EPA, seat belt laws...

...the right to know what is in your food...etc,etc,etc isn't important anymore.

The childish notion that Ralph running for President trumps his achievements for the left is sick...his appearance on that top ten list is sad

"what have you done for me lately?"

sad

[mac56]

113. Precisely.

Yes, it's sad, but not for the reasons you seem to think. I wish his presence on that list weren't so well-deserved.

"What have you done for me lately?" That's what it's all about, unfortunately. Yes, the man has done some wonderful things for us all, and God willing he'll do more.

But he's been drinking his own bath water again. He knows he'll only siphon off votes from Dems, and probably ensure another Bush administration that will run counter to all his noble values and aspirations.

Besides egoism, what's his possible motivation here?

[OhioStateProgressive]

115. I disagree

I am saying what he HAS done done TRUMPS the "wrongness" of him running for President this time.

The Democratic Party will learn, or it will find its true home again.

Ralph Nader has been the leader of the left for 40 years...the usurption is the fact that he has to fight to get it back.

[mac56]

119. If he's indeed "the leader of the left" -

(I'll briefly accept this notion for sake of argument) -

why then is he helping ensure the victory of the right? Egoism? Scorched earth?

His actions are completely contrary.

[JohnLocke]

133. Bye! Don't come back!

:hi:

[mac56]

139. who, me?

???

[JohnLocke]

152. Sorry, misplaced response

I was referring to post #127.

[Blue_Chill]

114. If you help an one old lady across the street can you then kill one...

and still be considered a good person? No.

Nader lost his virtue in my eyes in 2000 with this latest news he has crossed the line from which there is no return.

[OhioStateProgressive]

116. wrong

I just disagree, but I am not going to argue about it.

[mobuto]

125. If Nader had stuck to fighting the auto industry

we'd have all been better off. He did not, btw, give us the EPA.

"what have you done for me lately?"

That's all that matters in politics. What has Ralph done for us lately? He's given us four years of Bush. Lets not let him do that again.

[OhioStateProgressive]

129. yes, he is very much responsible for the EPA

he is very much responsible for every government reform of the 70's.

Viewing the world as "what have you done for me lately?" is a myopic viewpoint. It is incorrect, and therefore ends the matter.

[mobuto]

138. The Bush Administration is a pretty-big negative

Forgive my near-sightedness, but I find it hard to forgive a man for giving us four years of Bush and for trying to do it again. Recalling the Corvair doesn't give him a lifetime of free fuckups.

[OhioStateProgressive]

140. That's nice

I don't believe the Establishment deserves a free pass anymore either.

[mobuto]

148. "The Establishment"?

The only Establishment is George W. Bush. Either you support his reelection or you don't. Dennis Kucinich understands that. And that's why he's said he'll support the Democratic nominee, whomever he is. You disagree with Democrats on policy, but you can't lose sight of the larger goal.

[OhioStateProgressive]

150. no sir, the Establishment transcends party lines

Wealthy Ivy League graduated new englanders are the Establishment, Bush as well as Kerry

[LeahMira]

111. Yes!

That said, I'm both shocked and extremely dissapointed to see the DU place Ralph Nader in the top two slots (!) on this week's conservative idiot list.

Me, too.

I agree that the Democrats have given Bush a pass on entirely too many important issues, and either the Democratic candidate has to distance himself from those mistakess or we can expect only more of the same old thing.

We are supposedly living in a democracy where the free exchange of ideas is valued. IMO, the more voices heard, the better for all of us. I'm glad Kucinich and Sharpton are hanging in there with their campaigns, and I'm glad Ralph Nader is getting into the running. I'm looking forward to seeing who the Greens put in the running also.

If there were no NEED for these voices to be heard... because Democrats were already giving those same voices a hearing... the third party candidates wouldn't be around. The fact is that there is a NEED because the Democrats aren't letting these folks be heard.

[mobuto]

130. Huge difference between Kucinich, Sharpton and Nader

Kucinich and Sharpton are Democrats. They want to change the Democratic Party in their own image, but they do so within the Democratic Party. They have both promised their full support to whomever the Dem nominee is, because they believe in the bigger goal - the defeat of Bush in November.

Nader hurts his own causes because he weakens the Democratic Party.

[drdigi420]

123. as well he should be

Nader is putting his own political ambitions ahead of the good of the country, just like in 2000.

Nader knows what he is doing, he is attempting to ensure another 4 years of bush, as he ensured the first 4 years.

At least we know what he's doing with his humongous tax cut, he's using it to help fund the reselection of george bush.

[John_H]

126. Well, he's certainly an idiot. Close enough for me.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

127. the final straw for me

and am leaving DU

the insane dean-bashing on the boards almost put me there, but now that the administrators are attacking Ralph officially, I can see that DU has officially made the leap from rereshing leftist discussion forum to lockstep DLC hackjob

nice knowing you, people.
take care

[mobuto]

128. Don't let the door hit you

Attacking Nader has nothing to do with the DLC. You think The Nation is DLC-run as well?

This is the Democratic Underground - the site supports the election of a Democrat to the White House. Nader opposes that goal. So we oppose Nader.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

132. at least the nation

wrote a reasoned argument against a Nader run and isn't calling him a conservative idiot. by doing that, not only are you insulting him, you're also insulting the millions who voted for him last time. great strategy at winning them back.

like I said, this site is now a DLC shill

[JohnLocke]

135. You can leave our "DLC shill" website now.

[Blue_Chill]

142. DLC OMG OMFG THE DLC ONOS!

yawn.

Supporting the democratic party and the proper way of changing things internally does not make one a DLC shill. People who wanted Dean and DK had a chance to vote for them. As it turns out they are the minority. Now we have this f#ckwit Nader trying to yet again play spoiler and blackmail the party.

In 2000 he may have actually believed that he was doing good. But now I don't buy it anymore. He knows the damage he did and he is choosing to do it again. Willingly helping Bush. He belongs on that list.

[tedoll78]

131. Bye!

Have fun enabling!

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

134. we'll leave the enabling to John Kerry

he's been pretty good at it so far, with his voting record and all

[ProfessorGAC]

136. Who's We?

Speak for yourself. I think it would be most appropriate to avoid speaking for others who aren't here.

And, BTW: The Top 10 is, while serious in intent, done tongue-in-cheek. So, perhaps you need to refresh your sense of humor a bit.
The Professor

[mobuto]

137. Kerry's voting record - yup Enabler

The man has a lifetime "5" rating from the American Conservative Union. That's lower than Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Pat Leahy and just about any other Senator. He'll be the most liberal President since Johnson.

Don't like him? Fine. Vote for Edwards, Kucinich or Sharpton (or Dean, since he's still technically in the running). But support the eventual nominee or else you're the enabler.

[SideshowScott]

143. Very Bold move by DU if you ask me.......And I agree %100

Personally I agree with Nader on some issues and he has valid points. BUT First I dont trust him.. His lie about no difference between Bush and Gore was a doozy and second the fact is that he is trying to take votes from the person im backing therefore he is the competition. Or Enemy. Good move by DU by showing party loyalty to the democratic party. They way it looks is that there will be the Greens AND Nader ( Who is running as a Ind. ) who will be trying to take votes from the Democrats and who im sure will be cashing big fat checks from the Bush war chest and Bush Supporters who have money to spend. I for one will start playing hardball and im glad DU is as well. Sorry it has to be this way but my goal is Bush out in 04 and to hell with anyone who gets in the way.
Plus hey you want to play with the big boys you gotta take the hits.. Lord knows the Dems have been taking its fair share of lumps.
When Nader announced he was running their was much rejoicing in republican ingoreland..

[FlaGranny]

145. From words right out of Nader's mouth -

the words about how it needs to get worse before it can get better, I believe that Nader's goal is to throw the nation into total chaos and despair and misery in order to make us see the light - that Ralph Nader is our savior. I believe his supporters, if he has any left, are not averse to the chaos and bloodshed - after all it shall set us free, no?

Personally, I believe it might be better to avoid the calamity and begin a gradual improvement in our lot. It might be too late anyway, what with the global ice age predicted. Gore would almost certainly have signed the Kyoto Treaty and dumped dollars into alternative energy research, but Ralph helped scrap all that back in 2000. For someone who claims to be concerned about the environment, he is a very deluded man, and one who, in a round about way, may actually help bring about that new ice age. He may help wipe out every single consumer and environmental protection he was responsible for and then some.

[1gobluedem]

151. He did that in 2000

"I believe that Nader's goal is to throw the nation into total chaos and despair and misery in order to make us see the light."

I, for one, believe he accomplished that with his run in 2000. So what is he running now for? To satisfy his ego or to throw support to Bush? Either way he is no friend to the Democrats and I was happy to see him as #1 and #2 on the Idiots list this morning.

Nearly every prominent Democrat and liberal publication asked him not to run. But, fortunately, or at least I hope, his supporters from will be considerably less than what they were in 2000 because they've had to live with the consequences of what he did then. Go away, Ralph, you aren't helping.

[truthbetold]

146. It made my day!

I just had to grin when I saw the front page of DU.
Good job guys, you're right on the money!

[throwthebumsout]

147. Completely Appropriate, as he is an Idiot (nm)

*

[PatrickS]

149. DU is a joke

It's as serious as Freerepublic.com

[Rationality]

153. Now that I wouldn't agree with... (n/t)

[candy331]

156. What a way to go

I suppose Democracy is gone in this country and can be found in the constitution being written in Iraq. When will Dean quit drummed daily till he did now Nader is an idiot and ask a dead man(Dean) killed by his own to kill another is the ultimate in idiocy. When will the Dem party stand up and take responsibility for it's own failings and quit the blame game? Sounds like the "welfare queen syndrome" that had been perpetuated that someone owes you something. Didn't Clinton sign the welfare to work to supposedly get "welfare queens" to stop looking for handouts, for someone to take care of me, someone owes me mentality. Dems need to get off their entitled to, owe me, sorry asses and get out and earn peoples respect and they would get the votes. Just as the "welfare queens" had to go to work for what they want or sit back and continue to cry. Dems better realize they too better get to work the free ride is OVER.

[FDRrocks]

157. Well said n/t

[Deja Q]

158. For other reasons, Nader shouldn't be up there

Namely, he was one factor of MANY that resulted in the Dem loss of 2000.

May as well put the Supreme Court, Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, Al Gore, and Bill Clinton on the list as well. :eyes:

You do bring up a good point; the mainstream Dems have been soft. What if there are those who would vote Green or write-in their own boisterous candidate? :scared:

[Sterling]

159. We only have ourselves to blame.

I saw this coming. You see so much vitrol hurled at "radicals" and fringe leftist by right wing Dems saying the "centrists" don't need the lefties yadda yadda, then we act surprised when some of them split? We need to learn better people skills I think.

We are acting like a bunch of bi polars off their meds.

[GreenPartyVoter]

167. Yeah might as well put Abe Lincoln and FDR up there too

if Ralph is gonna be up there.