A question for people around and aware in the early 1970's.

[coloradodem2005]

How do you feel about Nixon and Vietnam compared to things now?

Was there Nixon hatred on the level that there is Bush Hatred now?

Good sign or bad?

I figured I would ask, not having been alive back then.

[joeybee12]

1. I may have been too young at the time, but this is what I recall...

...lots of people didn't like Nixon, but I don't think there was the depths of the hatred as there is now. He probably didn't pull out of Vietnam soon enough, but it's a mess he inherited, and didn't start, like the sack of shit who squats in the White House now.

Besides, Nixon never ran on character, like Dumbo--people knew what he was, and he wasn't a hypocrite trying to be something he wasn't.

That said, Nixon did more damge to this country than good during his six years in office. He was a terrible president, a pimple on the face of humanity, but Dumbo has the capability to be much worse.

[sangha]

2. It's not the same

In the 70's, the hatred was not so narrowly focused on Nixon as it is now on Bush*. Back then, people hated the entire system, aka "The Establishment". Now, lots of people hate Bush* without hating Republicans, Big Business, the Religious Right, the military, etc...

[Burma Jones]

3. The Hatred towards Nixon was great

The difference is that now we have the internet and cable news, so there are a lot more outlets. Bush is hated for a more visceral reason - HE STOLE AN ELECTION, he coopted the idea that votes count. There were HUGE protests against the war and against Nixon. Once Watergate started, Nixon was toast more because of how much people hated him rather than what he did. I mean, Iran-Contra was a more serious breach than Watergate IMHO, BUT Reagan was WAY more likable. Ditto with the whole Monica thing, except the Monica thing was a bunch of crap. Bushco is worse than the whole lot put together and I think that is why some of us hate him to the point of nausea, like me.

[H2O Man]

21. One error

Watergate was part of a very serious threat to democracy. You might consider reading The Imperial Presidency, by Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., and reconsider that part of your statement. Only when you fully appreciate the implications of what was occuring can you put the Iran-Contra scandal in its proper context. And then -and only then - does the theft of the election in 2000 make sense in the truest sense! The Persian Sufi poet Jalal ad din Rumi wrote: "This world and yonder world are incessantly giving birth; every cause is a mother, its effect the child. When the effect is born, it too becomes a cause, and gives birth .... These causes are generation upon generation, but it takes a very well lit eye to see the links in their chain."

[grasswire]

29. lovely post...

...thanks for bringing erudition to DU.

[Leilani]

4. The anger built as the war went on

LBJ was detested; not only Nixon.

The anti-war chant was "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" The anger was so great, he decided not to run for reelection.

Later, when the books came out, & the truth came out from McNamara & the other war criminals, that they knew the war could not be won.

The hate & anger was much greater then. It just built & built.

[havocmom]

5. Nixon: bad. Situation now: much worse

With Nixon it wasn't such a well orchestrated take-over of the whole US government and social structure. There were serious problems but the constitution held fairly well. There was not weekly talk of amending it to accommodate the unholy alliance of business and government. There were some serious civil rights violations, but no Patriot Act.

I would take Richardson over Ashcroft anytime.

Now we have fascists up the wahzoo and as far as the eye can see. The corporations are even more in control and the gap between rich and poor is worse.

BFEE is infinitely worse than tricky dick, IMHO

[Kanary]

18. I'm not sure most people are aware of the whole take-over

I agree with your assessment in terms of what is happening, but.... I do doubt that most people in this country are actually AWARE of the depth of the depravity... er... I mean, the destruction to our system.

I also agree with you about fascism and the corporations, but I honestly don't think the bulk of the population sees it in that way yet.

Unfortunately, I think the whole country would have to be completely in the toilet before the majority could actually see what is happening. I think most people would just dismiss us as alarmists.

"BFEE is infinitely worse than tricky dick, IMHO"

Total agreement. But, I don't think that most people see just how bad he is. I think the anger at Nixon was as much as now.

Too bad we didn't know how good we had it in the "good old days", eh?

Kanary

[Brian Sweat]

6. It got to the point where you knew Nixon was either going to resign

or get thrown out. It hasn't gotten there with Shrub yet.

[lcordero]

7. Nixon was useful at the very least

Nixon appointed two Supreme Court Justices that supported Roe vs Wade, signed the Environmental Protection Act and the Occupational Safety and Health Act, made peace with China, and cut military spending.

[dbt]

33. Good points, lcordero.

Nixxon actually did a few things that benefitted the country. You can't say that about bu$h.

:thumbsup:
dbt

[BillZBubb]

8. Bush* is hated worldwide

Nixon couldn't hold a candle to that. Here at home, I'd say Nixon was more hated than Bush*, simply because of the ongoing high death rate in VietNam. There is no draft (yet), so a lot of young people are now apathetic to or supportive of Bush*.

Finally, Nixon wasn't able to project Bush*s phony "likeable guy" persona.

Bush* is trying to give Tricky Dick a run for his money, though.

[havocmom]

17. Nixon didn't have years of right wing hate radio paving the way

for him either. There were more voices raised against Nixon cuz it was somewhat OK to protest back then. There was a whole different social context.

In recent years, there has been a very McCarthy-era hostility toward anyone not in lock step. Makes it harder to voice dissent. It is a public mood which was very deliberately set by the far right extremists. Media outlets came under right wing control before the shrub stepped into the arena. The public airways were shanghai-ed to set the tone that hate is good, diversity is bad. There was a very concerted effort to make the population believe that a few loud mouthed louts spoke for the masses instead of the small minority they really represent.

The social setting is what has made it harder for people to hear and talk about the truth of the malAdministration. To compare Nixon to bush* in terms of popularity, we must see the differences in the US then and now.

My guess is the shrub is hated more for himself and his policies than Nixon was. Nixon was also hated for a war he didn't start. Dubya had a hard on for getting a war started and a track record for personal cowardice. That is a big difference.

[Kanary]

20. No hate radio, but the protest?

In a way, the oppostion against us now is much more organized, that is true, thanks in part to the hate radio you mention.

But, I will have to take issue with you that it was "ok to protest back then". Having been in many of those protests, I *know* it definitely wasn't "OK". Remember Kent State? That was the most visible, but there were lots of tear gassings and being threatened by flak-jacketed thugs. OK? NO.... those of us who participated took a lot of hits from our neighbors, our peers and, most certainly, our families. It was almost as divisive as the Civil War in that sense.

No, it wasn't easy to protest.

It COST us.

Kanary

[havocmom]

23. I remember Kent State and a lot or cracked skulls in other towns also

but with the Patriot Act now, they can manufacture evidence much more easily than they did back then. And a note to the youngsters, they did manufacture evicdenc against disidents back then. But they still had to take it to open trials. Now they can haul anybody they want to for a military tribunal and your next of kin doesn't get a phone call from you.

That is why I feel it is tougher now. You are facing a foe who doesn't even need to pretend there is rule of law in America. When memebers of the US Senate and House of Reps get envelopes of anthrax to remind them they are mortal, things are rather nasty.

[starroute]

9. Just as much hatered of Nixon, but less fear

Nixon was a creep. A crawl around in sewers and leave a trail of slime behind him kind of creep. He was somebody where if you shook hands with him, you'd want to wipe your palm off afterwards on the seat of your jeans.

On that level, the hatred of Nixon went back to his early red-baiting campaigns for the House and Senate. There were people who'd hated Nixon for twenty years before he ever became president.

But Nixon wasn't a destroyer the way Bush is. He didn't try to undermine the constitution, crush the middle class, and sell off the country's assets for the benefit of his cronies. He even did a few praiseworthy things, like opening relations with China and supporting early environmental legislation.

Certainly there was a lot of paranoia surrounding government attacks on the anti-war movement. Certainly Nixon kept an enemies list and tried to target the people on it for IRS audits and other harrassment. Certainly there were dirty tricks employed in the 1972 presidential campaign.

But no one would have said of Nixon, "He actively wants to destroy everything in this world that I care about and will smirk with glee as he sees it all crumble."

That's the difference.


On edit: Here's a 1954 Herblock cartoon with Nixon crawling out of a sewer. (I wondered where I'd gotten that mental image from -- I must have seen this as a kid.) And that was the early Nixon!

[teach1st]

10. What they said above, plus...

It seems to me that the division was horizontal back then - the young were much more likely to be against Nixon and/or the establishment. Media at the time called it the "generation gap."

I hated the war and racism and injustice. I don't remember hating Nixon. In fact, there were times when I kind of felt sorry for him. I haven't felt sorry for Bush.

I have the same amount of disbelief in the lies now as I had back then. "How the hell can they get away that?" I thought that then and I think that now. As I remember it, the build-up to Nixon's resignation after the Watergate revelations was a roller coaster ride, full of high points and low points for Nixon. There were times when I was sure he'd walk away uninjured and then another article would come out detailing more BS. Somehow Nixon's men would spin or stall themselves out of each new accusation, at least for a while. After a while, though, the accumulation of inconsistencies caught up with Nixon. People just stopped believing the spin, Republicans included. In that sense, I see some similarities with what happened to the Nixon administration and what is happening to Bush right now. Maybe it's just wishful thinking!

[TiredTexan]

11. The Nixon hatred had a very

different feeling to it. Everyone was shocked at what he did, myself included, a good Christian southern girl, raised to believe in God, America, the superiority of the white male and the GOP, in that order.

Times were simpler in a way I can't describe. Most people really believed that the US was a force for democracy, for good, and that politicians were, for the most part, honorable. Nixon's actions were a real eye-opener, and caused tremendous hurt and disillusionment with politicians, although the system did work to rid us of him.

Now the anger feels not shocked, but furious. Furious in a way I've never seen in my life. I'm almost 50, and have never hated a president before. I hate Bush to the core, so much I'm ashamed of it, like it is a mental sickness. It scares me how much I hate him. But I feel better knowing that millions feel the same way, and that my 71 year-old lifelong Republican mother feels the same.

While Nixon shook our faith in politicians and in the government, Bush shakes our faith in the entire democratic system. The system worked with Nixon. He was disgraced, thrown out, and died in disrepute. Bush is rewarded, admired, and has never truly been held responsible for his crimes against his own people, the environment, the Iraqis. He rapes and pillages the government, making a mockery of the Democratic system. Everything that comes out of his mouth is either a lie or suspect.

He is shaking the very foundation of our democracy. This is not about one crooked politician. It is about everything we believe in, democracy, voting, the role of the media, the gutting of the environment, our civil rights, our pensions, our heath care, our jobs, our very survival as a nation. Our very survival as human beings.

Informed people know that if we fail in November, we lose way more that just an election. We may lose the last chance to stop global climate change, which may ultimately kill us all. That we lose our rights to challenge the corporations for our land, our air, our food. That we lose our civil rights, our chance at health care, our pensions.

So much more is at stake now, the anger is much stronger, the hatred far more fueled by fear.

Sorry for the long post, but this is how I feel.

[teach1st]

Well said, TiredTexan

Even after the atrocities over which Nixon presided - Kent State, etc. - I don't remember the absolute hate. Perhaps it was our youth, but we knew that the dark times would pass. With Bush, we're just not sure of that at all.

For those of us anywhere near being politically aware and active at the time, it seems that Bush is intent on destroying every good thing that came out of those intense times. Bush has the means and the potential to destroy it all.

[Frances]

16. You explained my feelings exactly

Because the stakes are so high now, I cannot understand the nitpicking against Democratic candidates

The WORST Democrat would not undermine our whole political and economic system the way Bush is doing

[Lorien]

32. Excellent post

I agree with all you've said,and though I'm a little more than a decade younger, my parents were very involved with politics at the time. It was indeed a more innocent time. The media protected us then, ins tread of aiding and abetting a criminal junta. I never knew any Republicans as a child, save for my father's parents. All my schoolmates came from liberal families, my parents marched in peace protests, as did my mother's parents and siblings. My teachers were liberal, nearly every adult in my life was a democrat. The ideas put forth by BushCo today would have been immediately and harshly denounced and dismissed back then. It was a very different world, from what I recall.

[Frances]

12. I think there is a difference

After JFK was assassinated, the country rallied around Johnson, who did very good things domestically, especially medicare and the voting rights act. BUT the U.S. was more fearful of Communism then than it is of terrorism today, in my opinion. Johnson bought into the idea that if Vietnam fell to the Communists, then one country after another would fall, just the way dominos fall (the domino effect). He began sending more and more soldiers to Vietnam.

When Nixon came in, he supposedly had a "secret plan" to end the war. Of course, he didn't, but people gave him the benefit of the doubt for a while.

Eventually young people turned against Nixon because they didn't want to go to a hopeless war.

The difference is that Nixon inherited the Vietnam War from a Democratic president who had not been truthful about how the war was going or how we were going to pay for it. Bush is totally responsible for getting us into Iraq and he is refusing to say how we are going to pay for it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. Nixon was sneakier

and it took the people a long time to wake up and realize all the dirty tricks he'd played. The country was not as polarized as it is now, and the Republicans had a moral code of conduct that they have abandoned. Remember, it was Barry Goldwater who went to the White House and told Nixon it was time to go. The GOP was looking out for its own. Also, the media wasn't so concentrated and there were genuine reporters out there reporting news. If it weren't for Woodward and Bernstein and the Washington Post, Nixon would never have been taken down.

But tapping people's phones, trying to ruin lives, misusing the Justice Department-history is repeating itself in spades.

[LeahMira]

14. I don't think so.

Was there Nixon hatred on the level that there is Bush Hatred now?

It was more an opposition to the war, and the anger was diffused onto more than one individual.

The Watergate business was what really did Nixon in. There was probably plenty more that should have, like extending the war into Laos and Cambodia, but Watergate forced even the Republicans to distance themselves from him.

I think the big difference was that back then people believed that their government leaders knew things that for security reasons they really couldn't tell the people, and people were more willing to trust them and hope for the best. After Watergate, we all came to understand how dishonest and slimy some leaders really were... and are.

[Nite Owl]

15. As I remember the stuff about Nixon

was a bit shocking. Today it takes a lot to shock, I think people have become hardened and don't expect much from politicians anyway. There was a real press corps, real investigative journalism and there were some good Republicans that stood up to Nixon, people who really saw the interests of the country and being honest as something of value. Today, since Reagan and his 11th commandment of speak no ill against another Repuke, they don't speak out against their own right or wrong. That makes it look like it's only the Democrats getting all political again and things get put in that basket. What Bush has done is far worse than Watergate.

[Ksec]

19. I was 17 in 72 and I dont remember anything like this hatred of bushawol

There were people who loathed Nixon for sure, but nowhere near the rate we see today IMO. It seems like nearly every Dem hates this trainwreck in office today. Nixon was a creepy lawless basturd but Bushwardeserter is ten times worse.

[The empressof all]

22. Nixon vs Bush

Clearly there was a great deal of frustration and anger towards Nixon and his ilk at the time. In general though I believe the general population believed it could be turned around and the wrongs would be righted. What I feel now is the rage of hopelessness that the system can not and will not correct itself no matter what the majority of the American citizens want and vote for. I sense a great deal of rage as more and more citizens who supported these characters become increasingly aware they have been duped and lied to.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

24. hatred towards Nixon was not as bad as bush* cuz Nixon was "elected"

[TankLV]

25. It's not the same. It's more serious this time arouind.

1) The stolen election: Even if you accept the fact that the electoral college crap was legitimate, having a person occupying the OUR White House even tho he lost the popular vote is a major pain in the side of most Americans.

2) Watergate was strictly about bad politics and criminal activity revolving around politics - bunkerboy's lies and failings have gotten us into an unnecessary war, killed thousands.

3) There are no repukes around anymore in power who will do what's right for the country above what's right for the repuke party. Their primary allegience is to their party ABOVE their country.

4) The repukes might like to believe otherwise, hut information on all the hypocracy is just too easy and quick to find and confront them on - even with the lapdog repuke propaganda arm that the media has become.

5) The so-called "patriot act", combined with the decision to prevent "irreprable harm to the candidate (bush*)" has violated too many of the Bill of Rights - and even the ideologically driven SOCTUS can't even see it for now.

Things are fast approaching the state of affairs, for different reasons, of the USA at the advent of the last Civil War - if we don't have a much needed correction of a return of the democrats to power. Even with this scenerio, there is a good chance of another Civil War in this century.

[Jane Eyre]

26. Nixon won 49 states

There was a popular bumper sticker at the time that said "Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts." That was the only state not to fall in line behind Nixon in the 1972 election.

The difference really is that Nixon did get the votes needed to be elected, even got them in a landslide election. Watergate was about dirty politics and a direct effort to "fool the people." People felt angry that they were had, and they felt some anger towards themselves for voting for him.

Another big difference was the role of the media. Woodward and Bernstein became household names. They were big role models. Walter Cronkite was the most respected man in American. Enrollment in journalism schools jumped up. People had faith that the press would do their jobs.

And one more big difference was the composition of the Congress. Not only were the Democrats in control, but there were enough Republicans with ethics that they did what had to be done. Think John Dean, Barry Goldwater and Howard Baker. Senator Sam Ervin was my personal favorite, a slow-talking bible-quoting country lawyer and a Democrat from NC.

Nixon operated outside the Republican party establishment via his Committee to Reelect the President (CREEP), so there was not the solid unified support for him among the party establishment to protect him. The religious right was in its infancy with Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority," so devout Southerners did not have the entrenched belief that God's Own Party could do no wrong. Many religious types that I knew in NC were happy to vote for Jimmy Carter because he was a good Christian and Nixon had done bad things. Carter may have been the last Democrat that they voted for.

[spooky3]

27. I don't remember very well either, but I have a different recollection

than do most other posters here.

I do not recall that Nixon was "hated." He was not even vehemently opposed for a broad spectrum of actions. He was actually a very moderate Republican, compared to the Reps. of today, if there is some way that you can control for the fact that many positions considered "liberal" at the time have since become mainstream (e.g., abortion is now legal, women expect to work outside the home, environmental protection is now supported by most people, vegetarianism and preference for natural foods is common rather than "hippie"). He was divisive in that he did not see that public opinion had turned so dramatically against Vietnam when it did, and then angered people with his dishonesty regarding Watergate, and for the original act itself (of burglarizing an opponent's office).

So, his situation was extremely different from *'s, in that he had not taken the most radical of positions on a variety of issues and I am not even sure you could say that his administration was more "corporate" than Clinton's. He was never liked as much as * is by many people, but his policies were never so outrageous, and no one ever thought he was a mere figurehead or too stupid to know what his administration was up to.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. There was a kind of "WHOA, WOW!" feeling in Brazil

Like "Holy sh!t, THEY lost a war!!!" and "Holy sh!t, THEIR President is a crook!!!" But we were prudent not to look too amused by that. We were at the worst of the military dictatorship at the time.

[donco6]

30. I remember a lot more chaos

People getting beat up by cops all the time . . . unwashed hordes waving banners and throwing things . . . people screaming across demonstration lines . . . Kent State . . . March on the Mall . . . Walter Cronkite giving the body count every single day at the end of the news . . . video of actual battles in Vietnam . . . pictures of dead and wounded being unloaded from planes . . . lots of fear from parents regarding their children possibly being drafted . . .

You don't really see that kind of physical uproar today.

[roguevalley]

31. I loathed nixon but there were strong dems so it wasn't so out of control

like now. They could give as good as they got. Viet Nam
will never be right for me. I am seeing the emergence of
the vets now and the issue of yellow belly as a chance
for Viet Nam vets to get their just due. All they have
to do is stand there with their hats and I feel better. It
was a hellish war brought right to the tv. You could sit
and watch tv eating dinner and see kids dying, kids hurt,
dan rather under fire, all of it. It was hell.

Nixon was not in bush's league in pure evil.

[radfringe]

34. similarities

Nixon only appeared on military bases, surrounded by troops who were ordered to cheer.

Nixon only appeared at events where the audience was vetted, pre-screened and pre-approved thus insuring cheers and applause.

bush* only appeared on military bases, surrounded by troops who were ordered to cheer.

bush* only appeared at events where the audience was vetted, pre-screened and pre-approved thus insuring cheers and applause.


---heard on NPR (over the weekend) that the troops at one military base actually had 'cheering drills' prior to a bush* visit.

[RebelOne]

35. I think Nixon and Vietnam were nothing compared to

Bush and Iraq. And I don't think there was the hatred toward Nixon as much as there is for Bush now. At least, I didn't like Nixon, but I didn't hate him. I despise Bush.

[G_j]

36. the Anti-War movement was more powerful

IMO,

Huge demonstrations happened during the Vietnam war.

After the present Iraq war began the militancy has dropped of noticeably, with the exception of Veterans. that's my observation anyway.

And yes Nixon was despised by many.

[mopaul]

37. It got me involved in politics

I was about 21 or so, didn't care much about politics, but was aware of what was going on with the war and nixon and the turbulent 50s and 60s. when the whole watergate thing exploded, millions of young people like me woke up to the fact that crooks and crazies were running the government. it was personally shattering to me, because i had been taught government classes, history classes, etc. and presidents were looked upon as heroes and as somehow better than us.

but the scandal got lots of people involved in politics, and the feelings between those days and now are similar. tension in the air, fear of the future, fear that the union itself could come apart and shatter and chaos could erupt at any second. paranoia, anger, polarization....it all has a familiar ring.

back then, the struggle between old and new, conservative and liberal, was sometimes thought of as 'us versus the establishment'.
citizens, pitted against a hostile government. in our contstitution, if i remember what a teacher told me, it says we can throw out corrupt and crazy government officials, even to the point of total revolution, and civil disobedience, if that democracy is threatened by one political group over the other.