If, on his death bed, George W. Bush asked god for forgiveness

[burythehatchet]

and admitted that all along, he knew what he was doing,

if he admitted he knew the consequences

if he asked all those families around the world who lost loved ones as a result of his decisions

and if he was serious and believeable,


Would you forgive him?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. God would

and that's all that matters.

What I'm more intersted in is that I do everything I can do to get the SOB out of office.

[anti-NAFTA]

9. You have no right to speak for G-d

Repenting at the last moment before death is not always forgivable. Please don't speak for G-d.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

51. The premise, as I understood it

from the original post, was what would you do if you were God. So I answered it from what I would do as God and what I would do as me. I am sorry if I offended you or your belief system.

[displacedtexan]

57. People usually don't understand the meaning of 'to repent'

To repent means that not only would you never commit the sin (transgression) again, but also it would never ever occur to you to repeat it. It sort of means that you are enlightened to the point of being repulsed by your former sin... forever.

Hence, to repent is more than just saying you're sorry. I wish more Christians understood their own religion. * obviously doesn't.

[calimary]

61. By that premise, I'd suggest it's rather dishonest and, in fact, cheating,

to repent on your deathbed. Especially regarding the "also it would never ever occur to you to repeat it." Kinda hard to live up to THAT part of it when you know you're dying and you probably can't even pee without help at that point. Pretty smarmy. Like cramming for exams and then painting yourself as a DEDICATED student who studied all along.

Lee Atwater did that, with Michael Dukakis, when Atwater was dying of brain cancer. Called him up to apologize for the awful Willie Horton tactic and other low-blow dirty tricks that won bush-the-first the White House. All it showed was that this shit-head realized he better clean up his act before the final Judge appeared. Funny he didn't find it necessary to make amends beforehand, when he was in more of a position to be truly, genuinely contrite.

After all, isn't true contrition also about making it up to those you offended? Not a whole lot of time to do that when you're conveniently incapacitated on your death bed, is there?

[Bertha Venation]

2. Yes. edited to add:

I believe deeply in the need to forgive for the forgiver's sake.

He lied -- people died -- and naturally I'm outraged. Personally I have little to forgive the man for; the only way he's hurt me is economically and he supports the denial of my civil rights (I'm gay). I believe families who've lost soldiers in Iraq have far, far more to forgive than I do -- and it's not up to me to say how they should feel on the subject.

[SheilaT]

3. I've always been suspicious

of deathbed confessions or realizations of wrongdoing. And, quite frankly, they don't wash with me.

Lee Atwater, when dying of brain cancer, professed to be very sorry for all the bad things he'd done. But why in hell couldn't he have figured out that what he was doing was wrong back when he was doing them????

Which means, basically, I would not find any such deathbed repentance on Bush's part believable.

Luckily, it's not up to me to forgive him, but I do believe the laws of karma will put him in a situation to suffer as he made others suffer.

[burythehatchet]

4. "long acting" Karma is a very powerful force

"Instant Karma" is our immediate reprimand ... nothing serious...

[waterman]

18. I think I lean your way bth... I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.

At least in my own experience.

[burythehatchet]

35. Let me guess....like when you try to lie about something

you're busted before the words even get out of your mouth?

:)

[Frances]

52. I'm not sure that Bush will ever understand that actions have

consequences. Bush has been protected from consequences all of his life, so I don't think he is capable of knowing what his actions did.

[readmylips]

5. bush is a murderer because his religion tells him....

that what he's doing is for the good of God and that God will forgive him. He's been chosen by God to kill as he sees fit.

It's our turn to kick bush out and send him packing with his radical religion. He's no different than the taliban.

[sallyseven]

10. I really hate to disabuse

your comments. bush does not believe in god it is just a ruse. This is to keep the sheeple in line. People love to hear god stories it gives them hope that all this mess is in god's hands and none of it their fault.

[historian]

36. well said

religion = opium of the masses

[boobooday]

6. Am I taking the role of God here?

It would be up to God to forgive him, but there would be mitigating circumstances.

That is, he committed all of his atrocities while spouting false Christian pieties.

Another big one: His constant impersonation of a religious leader.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[slor]

7. I would...

bitch-slap that lil' monkey and tell him to personally beg forgiveness from everyone he harmed in the world.

[coloradodem2005]

13. So you mean from everyone alive any time from early 2001 to early 2005?

[Az]

8. It depends

If he was on his deathbed my forgiveness would mean nothing. If he was yet to live and could strive to undo in any way his actions I would support him. But forgiveness suggests acceptance of one within your society. His death effectively removes the need for forgiveness.

[blondeatlast]

11. I'm not God, thank, well, God. As a faulty human:

No, even though as a Christian I'm supposed to. I just couldn't.

[dand]

12. The invisible cloud being might forgive him,

but I never would

[MurikanDemocrat]

14. No

[sweetheart]

15. forgive and forget

The sooner this happens the better. Then we can forget him.

[RC]

17. No, NEVER forget!

This will happen again if we forget. How do you think the republicans keep doing their damage? Because we the people forgot the last time they were in power.

Never forget.

[patricia92243]

16. God would forgive him - and that's what counts.

[ET Awful]

19. I'd say in a mocking voice through pursed lips. . .

"Please don't kill me. . . "

Wonder if he'd recognize the origin.

[kaitykaity]

20. I don't think that would ever happen.

I think Bush believes what comes out of his mouth. I think he believes his own press. In his mind, he has done nothing to be forgiven for. The arrogance of "that guy is a major-league asshole" permeates this man to his core being.

[Nobody]

21. Only if his apology would come with amends

Far too often, people do horrible things and then when forced to apologize, say things like:

I'm sorry you were offended.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm sorry if some people may have misunderstood me.

I'm sorry if my actions may have been misconstrued by those who have it in for me.

This is not an apology. I don't accept these kinds of apologies because they're attempts to weasel out of the consequences.

If Bush were to sound sincere on his death bed, he's already weaseled out of the consequences, is dying and therefore is in no position to make amends. His apology is meaningless, as would be forgiveness from me.

To mean something, an apology has to come when the apologizer is in a position to make amends.

And those amends have to be a sincere attempt to undo the damage.

[snippy]

22. Why would Bush ask his god for forgiveness?

Bush often claims to be doing what his god has told him to do.

[Lis]

23. I would laugh in his face

and tell him to enjoy Hell.

[Cat Atomic]

24. I think his family has earned him a legacy position.

I'd send him down to join them.

[ikojo]

25. HEREIN lies the difference between Christian thinking

and Jewish thinking on forgiveness...

Some orthodox friends and I had this very conversation Friday evening, except it centered around Hitler. I have been told by fundies that we cannot say for sure that Hitler is roasting down below with Beezelbub because in their world view; if Hitler asked Jesus into his heart and confessed him as his savior, then he would be in Heaven.

Everyone at the table, ranging from Reform to orthodox agreed that it was extremely difficult to wrap our Jewish minds around such a concept. Jews believe it is ACTIONS and DEEDS which matter more than what is in one's heart and what one feels.

We do and then we hear.

Here is what orthodox Judaism says about forgiveness:

http://members.aol.com/LazerA/forgive.htm

The Ramba'm in Hil. Teshuvah 2:9-10, writes:

"Repentance and Yom Kippur only atone for sins between Man and God such as eating forbidden foods or engaging in forbidden sexual relations. Sins between one man and his fellow, such as striking, cursing, or stealing are never forgiven until one pays up his debt and appeases his fellow. Even if he returns the money he owes he must still ask for forgiveness. Even if he only spoke badly about him, he must appease and beseech until he is forgiven. If his fellow refuses to forgive him then he must bring a group of three of his friends (presumably the injured party's friends) and go to him and ask him . If he still does not forgive him he must go to him a second and third time (with a different group of three people). If he still refuses to forgive him he may cease and the other is the sinner. If is his teacher (rebbe) he must go to him even a thousand times until he is forgiven.

It is forbidden to be cruel and difficult to appease, rather, a person must be quick to forgive and difficult to anger and when the sinner asks for forgiveness he should forgive him willingly and wholeheartedly...."

[Cat Atomic]

28. That seems more sensible to me.

I was raised Babtist, though I'm an atheist now.

The subject of Hitler asking forgiveness at the last moment and entering heaven was a problem for me very early. It just seemed too much like a legal technicality.

It seems to me that a person with evil in their heart, who still manages to do what's right is more noble than some righteous automoton who does what's right because they never even think of doing wrong.

[anti-NAFTA]

44. Islam also.

Christianity is the only one of the monotheistic religions that says you can kill hundreds of thousands and get forgiven for it.

[ikojo]

64. I could get so slammed for this but I'll say it anyway

Could many Christians think that "you can kill hundreds of thousands and get forgiven for it." because so many have been killed in the name of the Christian religion? This would excuse many who took part in the Crusades as well as those who slaughtered the native peoples of the Americas in order to show them Christian love and the superiority of the Christian faith over the more earth focused and polytheistic religions they may have practiced.

[anti-NAFTA]

65. I see your point.

But the Torah and the Koran and the New Testament condemn killing in cold blood, or murder. The Hebrews did their share of killing brutally in war as did the Muslims.

[citizen snips]

26. forgive but not forget.

n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. It's not up to me

what happens to any individual after death. The Force Behind the Universe is much smarter than any of us and will make the right decision.

But I know that holding onto hatred and resentment makes a person ugly and bitter without harming the object of the hate. (You've certainly seen examples in your daily life.) I avoid watching him on TV or listening to him on the radio because I don't like the way it makes me feel.

We can work to get Bush out of office and undo the damage he and his Repiggie predecessors and enablers have done, but we can focus on loving and helping the victims rather than hating the perpetrators.

[Jose Diablo]

29. I doubt he could cross the chasm

Choices people make in life predisposes them to handling problems in certain ways.

For example, we hear how the wealthy and powerful make their own future, they depend on their own resources, they are self-made. They anchor themselves in the material things in THIS world. It would make it very hard to even see the possibility of existence beyond the dissolution of the body.

It seems to me all the talk we hear from those wealthy and powerful people is just talk to convince others how 'religious' they are. This would come right out of Machiavelli's Principle for retaining power.

I doubt it would really be God's decision, they themselves create the barrier. We are 'free' to choose what to believe, unless you are ready to throw-out 'free-will' as the Calvinists did. Thus you can see my view on the issue (semi-pelagian).

It's a very old debate. Google "Pelagius" if you want a doctrinal overview of grace, free-will, mankind's role in salvation. Actually, this issue is a core issue in Christianity.

Most churches today take the semi-pelagian view on salvation. In other words people are saved by a combination of grace (God + Mankind) and mankind's willingness to be saved.

The Pelagian doctrine states mankind is saved by our own efforts to follow the law as given by God (Mankind only). For this view Pelagius was excommunicated by Augustus. Pelagius traveled to Britain. But his doctrine survived and continues to this day to confront the pure grace view of salvation (God only, ie Augustine).

The Augustine view is non-freewill, or deterministic view. "We were 'saved' long before we were even born." Pelagius rebelled against the promiscuity he observed with-in the church this view caused. Party on Saturday and saved on Sunday kind of actions.

[Darranar]

30. No.

[jansu]

31. Never happen! Because he is the head of their Church/State

Read this to see what they have planned and are doing and why we must stop all of them! http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml

They believe in the Old Testament laws and State, and he is doing God's will, so why would you think he would ask for forgiveness from the "God" who told him to do these things. Read the Bible, and see what horrors were done by rulers and people who said that God told them to do these things. That is why he sounds so much like the old-time preachers when he talks. I never listen to him...always turn the channel on the TV whenever he comes on. I will go read what he says, but I will never listen to them. I was raised in a certain religion, my Uncle was the head of the whole Denomination, and I know they use voice pitches, phrases and certain words to bend your mind to their ways! I was there when they discussed this with the new ministry students.

But, no, I would not forgive him. I would not forgive Hitler, Stalin or any of the other criminals against Humanity! I forgive those who have done something to me, quickly and easily, but not someone who has done damage to others on a mass scale! It is not my place!

[alittlelark]

42. Please read the article Jansu posted

It is ESSENTIAL reading and will help in understanding this issue.

Here it is again
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml

[burythehatchet]

45. That was an amazing article. Please post it again as a new thread

it deserves more exposure

[VOX]

32. Not near enough to get his karma out of the debt column.

I don't envy the bugger.

[fortyfeetunder]

33. If one lives a good, moral, ethical and decent life

Then there would be absolutely no reason to beg for forgiveness when the grim reaper comes a-knocking!

[Wapsie B]

34. Lucifer

can have his way with him.

And I have a real problem with this "cheap grace" doctrine us Lutherans keep talking about.

[burythehatchet]

39. ha..ha..reminds me of the South Park

with Satan and Saddam as partners. It was a love triangle, I forget the third guy's name. He was just a regular guy who also was serving his time in H-E-double hockey sticks

[LifeDuringWartime]

60. gary?

n/t

[ComerPerro]

37. No, and here is why

Normally, I would.

But Bush is doing all this shit supposedly in the name of God.

If he is so willing to lie to God and about God, then why the hell should I believe in his sincerity when he finds himself facing death.

[grasswire]

38. interestingly enough...

...we only have to look at what evangelical fundamentalists Christians practice to see what we should do.

They deny the message of their Gospel (unmerited favor to sinners) and impose a grid of "personal responsibility" over it.

The model of Christ is a model of pre-emptive forgiveness. And there's a lot of talk about being washed "whiter than snow" by acceptance the blood of Christ as a sacrifice for future sinners.

And yet evangelical fundamentalists are generally rigid, punitive, judgmental, and withholding of grace and mercy.

[burythehatchet]

41. I feel that they live rigid lives

in many instances because they themselves have very dirty secrets that they hide. Displaying a rigid and stern is designed to compensate for their weakness.

[BillZBubb]

40. God to Bush*: Have fun at your reunion with Saddam!

[Seldona]

43. Only one way.

And that would be for him to make a public statment, even by video tape, of everything he had done and why.

Like they say, confession is good for the soul.

Simple fear of death and finally having to explain the to the invisable man why he sent so many souls his way personaly would not be enough.

Jack him full of coke if you have to, but get that confession.

And then play it on every news channel again and again.

Set up college courses just so people can recognize this ahead of time.

Teach it in highschools.

I guess the short version would be (I know, to late), if he was willing to expose it all and therefore prevent it from happening again I would have to believe him and maybe forgive him.

No other way though.

edited for spelling

[Gin]

46. He must first be lucid...then remorsefull...then ask for forgiveness..

The Source of "All That Is"..is forgiving...but It's not that easy...just saying I'm sorry and asking God to forgive..then going on about your business as usual will not cut it..

The person's life must reflect a change of heart. He must first understand he has harmed himself and others.

Denial is a big, deep river.

[grasswire]

49. obviously...

....different denominations within Christendom have different standards for expiation of sins. Some require penance, some require only an expressed change of heart. (And in some traditions, the worse you can make your sins sound, the more heartily you will be folded into the bosom of the church.)

[LeahMira]

47. Huh?

If, on his death bed, George W. Bush asked god for forgiveness ... and admitted that all along, he knew what he was doing, if he admitted he knew the consequences, if he asked all those families around the world who lost loved ones as a result of his decisions and if he was serious and believeable,
Would you forgive him?

You mean if I was G-d? For G-d, I'm not speaking. For the families who have lost loved ones, I can't speak because thankfully my own family has not lost anyone. For myself, in terms of my own freedoms and general well-being as well as that of those I care about, it wouldn't be easy. I guess I would have to try. But George hasn't asked yet, has he?

(Now you got me to thinking about someone who does deserve an apology from me that I haven't figured out how to ask just yet.)

[CBHagman]

48. I believe God's mercy is infinite.

It is unclear, at this date, whether Bush's hubris and selfishness are infinite. It is entirely possible that he could sincerely repent and even publicly confess his sins.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that, though.

[salin]

50. If he did so - honestly regretting what his actions had brought about

and honestly in pain for what he had done... and if he did so with a public voice - thus unmasking the intents and ambitions and misdeeds of his zealous (and greedy and trecherous) colleagues... then yes... I would forgive him ... he would be taking action to try to change the future course of events by coming clean - and would be taking painful ownership of his role in creating potentially permanent damage to this world... in that light it follows my personal philosophy to grant forgiveness. However with a man as smug, intellectually lazy and shallow as this - I find it doubtful that he would ever reflect enough to recognize that he had inflicted grave harm upon this country and the world which would be a prerequisite for seeking real forgiveness.

[brainshrub]

53. God would.

I'd have a harder time.

[burythehatchet]

54. The intent of the original post was not to do so, but it has elicited

a question that is at the heart of the difference between Eastern and Western (incl. Islam) religion. That question is: Are you, as a sentient human being, a distinct entity from another "thing" called God, or are you a reflection of - and part of - the cosmic energy that Easterners attempt to concieve as God?

Thought that it was interesting to note that the responses seem to indicate a clear split beetween those positions.

[brainshrub]

55. Damn, that was deep.

If I am an aspect of God, then I don't know if I can forgive him.

[Blue_Chill]

56. There is a difference between repenting and asking

Asking doesn't get you shit. Only by repenting is one granted forgiveness and one can't simply choose to repent. You have to understand and acknowledge that what you did was wrong and feel that in your heart. You have to accept it as truth not just ask for forgiveness for something you support.

If Bush or anyone can look back and know what they have done is wrong, feel horrible abut it, and deeply regret it enough to free themselves from their sin by changing internally, then I believe they will be forgiven. Otherwise......

Being that we are talking about this, this goes for us as well. We all do wrong and we rarely enjoy thinking about it. Even if you don't believe in God I think it is good for the individual to take time and self reflect. You can only get stronger by identifying your weakness.

[Nobody]

63. Right. We all should try to become better people

Identifying our weaknesses is half the problem solved.

Speaking as someone who doesn't believe in god, I do believe that we as human beings are far from perfect, but we're also not irredeemable trash, either. We're basically good, but some people get so wrapped up in themselves at the expense of others around them.

Bush, for instance. Look at the damage he's done to the USA. We used to have a great worldwide reputation in most places. Now we're the bully of the world. We used to be the land of opportunity where hard work would get you a nice life. Now no matter how hard you work, you'll still find yourself laid off with few prospects as jobs get shipped overseas. We're embroiled in a war with no justification other than Bush's lies and Bush's obsession. I could go on, but you get the point.

Bush has a lot to anser for. Sorry won't fix the vast number of problems he'd responsible for. He may be sorry in the eyes of any deity he may believe in. That's OK and none of my business. But the effects of his mismanagement live on and we all have to clean up the mess.

Sorry is just the first step. I agree with you about repentance. It has to come from within and it has to come with the intent and action to do better.

[The Lone Liberal]

58. On very high, and I do mean high, authority….

God would say, “Fool me once, shame on you, ah, ah, er, don’t fool me again!”

[greatauntoftriplets]

59. I'd say...

"Huh?"

[DoYouEverWonder]

62. It wouldn't matter

he still wouldn't know god.

[MrSlayer]

66. My god wouldn't.

You're on your own Dubya.

[HEyHEY]

67. God would - he's a chump

Me? I'd press the little button that opens the trap door.

[donhakman]

68. Bush's last words

Daddy

[jor_mama]

69. God's love is unconditional. Mine isn't

n/t

[mykpart]

70. when it comes to deathbed repentance,

us Catholics have the neat little doctrine of purgatory. It basically says that while your mortal sins are forgiven and you won't go to hell, you do still have to be punished for them for a period of time. This is so all stain will be purged from your soul before you enter heaven. So if I were God, (and we all know God is Catholic :)!) I would forgive Bush and then send him to purgatory (which is every bit as painful as hell, but it is not forever) for about a bazillion years!

[Kinkistyle]

71. What kinda god lets a man murder recklessly then forgives all upon death?

Hmmm? If there is a God, and he is just, he will ignore Bush's lame plea (which he is obviously doing for his own benefit out of fear of pain) and send him to Hell. I dunno what kind of world Bush's "god" exists in, but the one I live in, actions matter more than words.

[AgadorSparticus]

72. I would forgive him...and let the laws of karma deal with his ass.

But he better be on his imminent deathbed.

[nemo137]

73. God might, and probably would. I'd have a hard time doing it

since i'm not Love, you know.