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So when did Socialism get such a bad wrap?

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 06:52 PM
Original message
So when did Socialism get such a bad wrap?
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 06:54 PM by shance
A good friend of mine just got back from Stockholm and has fallen in love....with Stockholm.***

She said it is an absolutely beautiful city and one of the things that surprised her the most was that there were no "bad" neighborhoods like here in the United States. She said there isnt a huge discrepency in class and money like there is here either.

She said that overall the city just had such this great, welcoming feel and positive energy.

So yes, they pay more taxes over there - and they also get their healthcare paid for, crime is almost non-existent because the citizens are happier and are getting their basic needs met.

Its more of a socialist system. I say sounds good to me!!

I like the idea of a more social government anyway. Hmm...I wonder if they have state funded happy hours.... :)

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. State happy hours? Not quite ...
"Sweden has one of the most restrictive alcohol regulations and highest taxes on alcohol in Europe. Alcohol of more than 3.5% proof can only be purchased off-trade through the state-owned monopoly outlets, Systembolaget, during limited opening hours. The high taxes on alcohol led to a high private import and also to a high consumption of illegally imported or produced spirits."

http://www.euromonitor.com/Alcoholic_Drinks_in_Sweden

It's normally the first disadvantage of living in Sweden that people bring up (or cold winters if you hate them).
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think it is just a bad rap at that.
So many of these GOP types like, all the things the govt does for them, but like to say they do not. How many would help their old parents, even when those same parents gave up all to help them Thur college etc. I see it all the time. They swear they hate socialism yet not many want a laissez Faire style business running things as they wish, They want their retirement protected and all that. None wish to see the standard laws of credit or protection gone but they do not fit that in with govt control of business. Most GOP types are about as socialists as Dem but they do not even know it.Even this great medical trapping we have come about because of govt. giving money to colleges and the same govt. helps put the doctors Thur college. In a society like ours socialism is part of the make-up and it is not a loner can do it by himself, even if they like to think so.Cowboys did not tame the west, most were out caste. it was the family and towns that tamed the West and the control they brought.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bur socialism is evil!
Socialism puts undue obligations on the free market, like well-being of the work force members, living wages, equality between people, and more.
This is the very same free market that was given to us by God! God himself has said that pure capitalism the only way to the kingdom of heaven! Jesus will come again to establish a capitalistic economy on earth that will last 1000 years!
All people are equal in the fires of hell!


Got sarcasm?
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. EstimatedProphet - I LOVE IT!*****
That is priceless.

And aymeeyun honey pie****

Our gracious Lord gave us our Deeemawkraseee and the right to shoot our AK-47s and shop at Walmart. Its in the Consteetushun you know.
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Since the capitalist propaganda machine quashed...
...our interest in the public good using its vast wealth and influence.

Here's a book EVERYONE should read. It's authored by a Lithuanian Soviet dissident who was used and trashed by the American Right Wing when he no longer useful or critical to the anti-soviet propaganda efforts.

--------------------------------------------

Discovering America As It Is
by Valdas Anelauskas

“This is an extraordinary book..."
Howard Zinn, Professor Emeritus, Boston University and author of A
People’s History of the United States.

DISCOVERING AMERICA AS IT IS is a monumental study of the devastating effect American-style capitalism has been having on the American people. It raises serious questions not only concerning America’s role as a leading model for development, but even as to its future capacity to compete due to the deterioration of its human capital resulting from anti-social domestic policies.

In thousands of citations, Anelauskas documents the precipitous plunge in living standards of American citizens, measured not only against the standards enjoyed by citizens in other capitalist countries in the industrialized world, but against their own past levels. Among the many searing results: in all categories that measure economic equity, citizens of all other industrialized countries generally fare better than do
Americans.

This blistering reality is culled from innumerable researches by international organizations, domestic and international NGOs, independent U.S. think tanks, journalists, scholars, and even from American government sources, documented in over 80 pages of endnotes. While most critiques focus on one social sector or another, this multidimensional study brings them all together, and the impact is staggering. What
this book enables us to grasp — intellectually and emotionally — is the predatory and wasteful operation of unbridled capitalism in its systemic dimensions, and the needless, preventable injury it wreaks upon millions. The linkages between government, wealth, poverty and policy, the conflicts between elite interest and collective well-being, clarify as we read.

Here are just a few of many mind-catching findings scattered liberally throughout the book: An American child has one chance in 432 of becoming a doctor -- but one chance in five of growing up illiterate. One in four Americans working full time does not earn enough to stay above the official poverty line. "Food insecure households" add up to over 34 million people. The notion that stock ownership is widespread in America is absolutely false -- the bottom 90 percent of Americans own 15.6 percent of stocks (including through mutual funds), while the bottom eighty percent only own three percent!

Twelve highly-documented chapters — on poverty, crime, health, education, homelessness, the deterioration of the family, income inequities and the replacement of welfare by workfare — detail the public disarray which results from an unfettered system of great wealth where the rich determine the social priorities.

Anelauskas’ ominous thirteenth chapter, "The New World Order Takes Shape," elaborates the socio-military resources and paradigms which serve to entrench and extend American hegemony, as it seeks to deflect global efforts to institute the rule of international law, and to turn the world back to the rule of force. From the expropriation of Indian lands, and the exploitation of African labor, to a taste for empire which spread to the continental rim, then jumped across many waters in a hundred-year history of invasions all around the globe, culminating at last in the hegemonic military-economic grip on the world by what many in the Third World view as a Rogue Superpower -- from domestic colonialism to imperial America -- this is America as it is.

Howard Zinn, Professor Emeritus of Boston University and author of A
People’s History of the United States: “This is an extraordinary book,
especially startling not because it is a diligently researched and
scathing critique of contemporary America, but because it is written by
a Soviet dissident who arrived here with great expectations and
discovered a sobering reality. The scope of the book is breathtaking, a
sweeping survey, factually precise and philosophically provocative ,
which deserves to be compared to de Tocqueville’s 19th century classic.
I hope it will be widely read.”

David Gil, Director, Center for Policy Change, Brandeis University:
"Anelauskas' examination of many dimensions of current and past
realities of the United States is a veritable tour de force. He avoided
the usual approach to deal with these dimensions as separate fragments,
each with supposedly separate solutions, but traced them to their
underlying common roots in the dynamics of the capitalist institutions
and ideology of this society and its culture. Teachers and students of
social sciences, history, and philosophy will find in this book a rich
source for understanding the forces which shape the quality of our lives
and human relations, at home and abroad."

Ward Churchill "Valdas Anelauskas' Discovering America As It Is illuminates the dark corners of U.S. history and current events, and draws all the right conclusions. If just on-in-ten lifelong Americans had ever bothered themselves to learn as much about their country as has this recent Lithuanian immigrant, the horrors he writes about would never have existed. This is must reading for the entire population."

Inter-Press Wire Service
"What Anelauskas fears is not the clash of civilizations, but their elimination and the headlong flight from what is civilized itself... It is more than a book for policymakers, it is for common Americans and foreigners alike...."

Bernard Mergen, George Washington University, in American Studies International."Books such as this need to be read and discussed in American studies courses around the world to challenge us to think deeply about what America means to the disaffected and why everyone does not feel the same."
----------------------------------------

Your Revolutionary Socialist fellow DUer,

Will
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. 100 years ago
Socialism has been the moral enemy of american corporate government for a century.. including every single war between 1900 and now.

Jack london's book "the iron heel" will give you a jolt, that a book
published 100 years ago describes the very issues we rant about on
DU today.

If you like socialism, then perhaps moving to a socialist country is
the wisest move, as america has become the polar opposite, a land of
corporate feudalism and military empire... likely in 2100, it'll
be a bankrupt rotting empire, still as militantly anti socialist as
today, if the nation exists at all.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. It is a communist lie!
or something like that
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. I grew up under socialism
I'm an army brat. I thought it was great. I've never understood why it never caught on in the civilian world.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. libertarian socialism
is the opposite of military socialism, and methinks your military
experience is biased.

My experience of participatory, concensus based socialism is that it
is quite excellent. Perhaps army brats have less exposure to
real civilian socialism than they might like to think.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Cold War
made socialism a bad word.
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californiahippie Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. What about "Commune" ism?
I think I would be a communist if the system worked! I like communes! I am a bleeding heart liberal, which is practically socialism. I don't think that socialism is a dirty word, actually I am starting to tire of our strange capitalistic value system, especially when it is equated more and more with things like corporate fraud, unfair labor practices (like the gap paying it's overseas workers .28 cents per hour, what a fashion statement!), environmental "deregulation" in the name of $$, and let's face it, many of these companies are quickly bordering on "monopoly". I figure soon we will be able to buy our clothes from Old Navy or Gap, eat at McDonalds or Burger King, and watch movies from Disney or Pixar, and they will all be owned by Washington Mutual Bank!!
Ok, I warned I was a bleeding liberal, didn't I?
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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. My wife is Russian and grew up...
...in Soviet Russia.

She's extremely disapointed that Russia didn't simply reform it's political system instead of throwing out the entire economic system. She remembers; she had a year off of work when her first child was born, free medical care, free university education, there were NO homeless veterans scurrying through garbage cans, childcare was paid for, etc.

She is sickened by the gangster capitalism that's ruined her country and wishes the country would have moved to adopt a social democratic economic/political structure, rather than the rathole capitalisism that has taken root.

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Im with you. I think it would be funner too****
Edited on Sat Feb-21-04 10:56 PM by shance
I dont think our country isnt even that fun any more.

Its become oppressive, uptight, and homogenized and overall pretty lackluster and conformist.

I would love to live in a commune. I have thought that for a while.

We are so dissected and disconnected from each other here in the U.S.

I dont think its how humans or really very few any animal species are meant to live. We need each other.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. about the time Liberal became a dirty word nt
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's a campaign
To make certain words "dirty"

Liberal
socialism
communism
anti-war(!)

Even though most Americans, when asked about specific policies, would fall into the above categories.

The interesting thing is that all of the big economic isms -- socialism/capitalism/communism lose all their differences when they are taken to the extreme. They all become FASCISM.

This is where we are now.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Boobooday - love your handle. Thats brilliant what you said.
Ive recently become a believer in the dangers of division and hatred that happens from merely by the use of descriptive words and labels.

I had never thought of how overall universal conformity resorts to fascism no matter what system* (I guess a label in itself) it originated from.

Thanks for the enlightening post.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. BTW alot of RWers are getting proud of the fascist label
Ive been seeing it on a MB I frequent. They detest anything thats not doing the govs bidding, they hate liberal arts and they sound like Nazis and are proud of it. These are normally smart people
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cryofan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Americans have been propagandized starting about 80 years ago
In my sig URL, you can find some links to pages talking about social democracies; one of those pages talks about the propaganda war fought by the rich and powerful through the govt and media (I call that CorpGovMedia) to demonize socialism.

What I am starting to see is that in many cases, large corporations are bad for people. Social democracies are the way to go. What we really need at this point is some really good books and movie documentaries that show very well how the Scandanavian social democracies work better than corporate capitalism. We need a video compare and constrast documentary to be shown on cable TV.

Now that digital video cameras are cheap and can be edited on home computers, this would be a great project for a budding liberal film maker.

Not that capitalism does not have its place. It definitely does! But to think that it should be as uncontrolled as it is in America is madness!
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. most people dont know much of anything about anything
and just go by what they hear. They associate socialism with Stalin. Stalin was bad, so socialism must be bad. The right makes sure that that this is so. They deliberately use the words communism and socialism interchangably and other simplistic ways. Its not very hard to associate bad things with a word; its very hard to remove the negative associations.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Dipshits like Joey McCarthy for one...
Back then, it was the evil soviet union and how people were tracked and how they suddenly disappeared and no freedom and no this and all that... Basically what's happening to the US now.

I'd pay more taxes if it meant everything you'd said.

And the fact the terrorists keep coming after the US instead of Stockholm says a lot too, probably...
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. That does it. I'd miss the terrorists. ~~guffaw~~
It's too bad we can't somehow carve out part of the US for those of us who want to try the Socialist Democracy, and have a side-by-side comparison. I'd volunteer to be in the Socialist side. :)

Kanary, who would probably fit just fine in Scandinavia
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