So suddenly it's not "kook theory" to say Wellstone was murdered...

[JackRiddler]

It's just the way Republicans in Utah think it happened, because it's so obvious to them. It's their mentality.

Accidents happen.

So do assassinations.

Both, all the time.

Now tell me the timing of Wellstone does not scream out assassination.

And they know they can get away with it, because all these reasonable nice people will construct arguments for the better, more reassuring world, however unlikely.

It takes a bunch of pansywaist liberals to actually sit there and go through 88,000 threads worth of accident scenarios - when the timing and all your gut say it was an obvious assassination.

Yeah, the Utah Republicans were joking. But their joke had a bead on the truth. The truth that nice, smart people cannot stomach.

If you do it at the wrong time the power mongers will kill you for telling the truth, in this country as in pretty much every other.

[feistydem]

1. It was the first thing that crossed my mind when I heard his plane went

down.

My spouse and I --pretty normal, intelligent people just looked at each other when we saw the news report and said, "Oh my God, they did it!"

Is it such a stretch to think an administration that lied us into a bloody WAR and drop bombs on a Afghani wedding party because a military target might be attending would also assassinate a political enemy? I don't think so.

[movonne]

2. We know they did it...now they are admitting it.

[StClone]

3. The Same way the Second I heard a Plane struck the WTC

I yelled to my wife as she showered "Bin Laden!"

[Solomon]

85. That's funny. When I saw the plane hit the tower I yelled "goddamn you

Bush"!!

[mac2]

128. Me too!!

I knew it was to bring us to war in the ME. They were leading up to it all along.

[AgadorSparticus]

5. same here. we felt it was an assasination from the get go.

[morningglory]

21. Especially so soon after the plane crash in Missouri that

took out Ashcroft's opponent.

[RowWellandLive]

31. Ashcroft lost

to a dead man. Why would they put themselves in that position again?

[scarletwoman]

32. They DIDN'T "put themselves in that position again"

Had the crash happened one day later, Wellstone's name would have stayed on the ballot. Timing is everything. Plus, they got his wife too.

Call it the learning curve of assassinations...

sw

[RowWellandLive]

54. Oh please!!

Wellstone has two great sons. They could have waited a day and we would have anointed one of them as his fathers successor. Also, with a great name like Mondale in the wings this would be a foolish move.

"Learning curve of assassinations" LOL!!! They got lucky because some speakers turned a memorial into a political rally. They had no way to know that would happen and every reason to believe that Wellstone's death would turn a close contest into a sympathy loss for them.

Carnahan and Wellstone both tragically died in small plane crashes. One death added a D to the Senate and the other caused us a loss. No one could have predicted either.

This is a laughable as the Freeper Ron Brown and Vince Foster whacked out theories.

[burythehatchet]

55. There were two objectives

one was to reshuffle the election deck. The other, more important, long term objective was to off the next great rising star of the real democratic party.

[RowWellandLive]

60. I don't think so

as much as Wellstone was beloved by the party faithful, he was hardly the next great rising star. Sorry. The best hopes for his future were as a long serving Senator, any prospects for a national future were unlikely for various reasons. Foremost being he was way to the left of the political mainstream. He was not a great threat to the Republicans on the national stage.

As far as reshuffling the election deck, why take the chance here? Polls showed that Coleman was within striking distance. To risk a potential upset for a likely sympathy defeat (after the Carnahan precedent) would be insane. Think logically!!

[burythehatchet]

102. As long as there are people out there urging me to "think logically"

the majority among us will continue to be subjugated by the minority.

Aren't coincidences just amazing

[dflprincess]

57. Don't blame the speakers at the rally

the Republicans, with media help, spun the rally the way they wanted people to see it. One local Repuke pundit, put the word out that those attending the rally were being prompted on the monitors in Williams Arena when to cheer or clap - she was talking about the closed captioning appearing on the screen. (Read Al Franken's chapter on the rally.)

Given the DFL's long history of imploding, I think they were banking on us being so shell shocked that we would never get anything pulled together before the election. Mondale had retired from public life and, prior to Wellstone's death, had not given any indication that he had any intention of returning to it. It is a credit to both him and his family that he was willing to take the race on.

[boobooday]

4. They are the party of Freud

They are the party of Freud and Fraud. They will always tell you what they are, if you just listen. They will tell you they are perverts, and assassins. It's kinda scary.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[feistydem]

9. Man, isn't that the freakin' truth!

I listen to the rightest of the righties talk and the moderates among Republicans poopoo their crazy talk... but then the Busholinis always seem to do what the rightwing nutjobs say they will do.

Now we have Christian pilots trying to convert people mid-air? Tell me that isn't crazy!

[Minstrel Boy]

59. worth repeating:

"They will always tell you what they are, if you just listen. They will tell you they are perverts, and assassins. It's kinda scary."

And not scary at all to most Americans, who still can't believe their ears.

[9215]

141. Kick

[salinen]

6. If we had their killer instints

Santorum & DeLay would be dead.

[liberalhistorian]

8. Oh, the list would be a helluva lot longer

than that, my friend, lol!

[liberalhistorian]

7. I totally agree that Wellstone was

murdered, my first thought after I heard about it was "well, how did they do it this time?" That being said, what are you referring to? I've been in my cubicle farm all day and haven't heard any news.

No one will EVER convince me it was an accident, I don't give a damn if we're never able to fully prove it or not. I will NEVER EVER believe it was an accident. And reading his book, The Conscience of a Liberal, this past week made me just ache terribly for him and his family and desperately wish he were alive and fighting the good fight with us, I really wished that it had been, just once, one of those damn fucking smug repukes. Why the hell can't it ever be one of them?

GODDAMN THOSE SATANIC FASCIST REPUKES TO HELL WHERE THEY BELONG! And I hope there's a special spot in hell waiting just for them.

[JackRiddler]

11. I am referring to these four paragraphs:

Rolly and Wells: Rally has odd sense of humor

Rolly & Wells
Tribune Columnists

Paul Rolly and JoAnn Jacobsen-Wells
Salt Lake Tribune Columnists

During a Feb. 5 meet-the-candidate night for the newly formed College Republicans U. chapter -- not to be confused with the older and more established College Republicans -- representatives for several candidates revved up the jovial crowd with such statements as "We need to put an end to the liberal Matheson era" and support "the Democrat killers."
As the audience giggled off and on, Mike Clement, representing congressional candidate Tim Bridgewater, spoke excitedly about Republican successes when College Republicans work hard, citing the victory of Norm Coleman in the 2002 U.S. Senate race in Minnesota.
As Clement bantered with the audience, one Republican gadfly noted that they defeated former Vice President Walter Mondale in that race, adding: "We had to kill off Wellstone to get it." He was referring to the death in a plane crash of Sen. Paul Wellstone and his family before the election.
An audio tape captures laughter. But both Clement and Danielle Fowles, acting chairwoman of the club, said they did not hear that comment and believe the laughter was just a continuation of the ongoing banter.

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/feb/02202004/utah/140572.asp

[dflprincess]

36. I posted this over in Editorials a couple hours ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=35931

Along with my fantasy that, if I were running the Justice Department, I'd be hauling Clement in for questioning. Not that I think he was actually involved, but it would be fun to sweat the little wingnut.

[maggrwaggr]

39. a bad sense of humor does not a murder make

I have yet to see a shred of evidence that Wellstone was killed on purpose.

Not that I don't put it past them, I just don't like to go with "feelings" for stuff like this. It seems silly.

Does anyone have any actual evidence? Or just "I know it happened"?

[JackRiddler]

92. Of course not!

No one is saying the Utah fool was in on the job, though he may have heard some rumor and it would please me to see him interrogated.

The comment is breathtaking because it shows the idea is not at all kooky to him! So why is it kooky to us?

He is saying he thinks such things happen, and showing a laisez-faire attitude that eggs do get broken making omelettes. So what, it's in the higher good. In fact, it's peachy!

This is indicative of a gangster culture.

As to the evidence... how could anyone have evidence of sabotage if the perps were professionals and weren't caught redhanded?

Was the possibility of foul play raised in the investigation? No.

Was it raised by the media, who were simultaneously promising terror attacks under every bed? No.

Did they send an international team to investigate a possible political assassination? Obviously not, the probe was led by the CIA agent who had previously handled Carnahan.

Does it have the timing the earmarks of an assassination? Absolutely. Classically so.

Would it be unprecedented? No.

Is it thinkable, in the political culture? Yes, in fact it is so convenient as to seem far likelier than accident, given the extremely low chance of ever getting killed in a plane accident, as opposed to the odds that a troublesome politician is assassinated.

Could it still be an accident? Yeah.

Am I crazy to make the case for the murder hypothesis? No.

Who was number one on the Cheney/Rove political hitlist for the election? Wellstone.

Who was number one among senators who voted against IWR and was going to lead the political charge against the invasion in the sensitive months ahead? Wellstone.

Who was the "little shit" who was known to have most annoyed Bush regime members and Republicans generally? Wellstone.

Can we do anything about it? Probably not.

Should I follow my gut? Sometimes.

Was there a sudden flood of Internet misinformation from the git-go (icing theory, stated with certainty) and a sudden appearance on many Internet boards (I'm not saying this one!) of brand-new posters whose only interest was to call anyone who wondered about Wellstone a crackhead, or else to present accident scenarios as pilots? (Again this does not refer to DU.)

I saw it, like in no other case since. The suddenness of it alarmed me. So call me paranoid for that, if you wish.

Does it discredit "us" to talk about it? No.

Am I accusing anyone specific? Certainly not. The presumption of every individual's innocence until proven guilty remains.

Any further questions?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

13. way to go mixing up the obvious with the irrelevant...

accidents happen.

So do assassinations.

[liberalhistorian]

15. Wellstone was specifically targeted for defeat

by the right and its hate machine and received many death threats during the 2002 campaign. Cheney himself specifically targeted him for defeat, which was why he was told by Wellstone's sons to stay the hell away from his memorial service, he wasn't welcome. The timing is incredibly suspicious, and the undisguised glee of the repukes, especially Coleman, was particularly sickening. The only reason Coleman's a senator is because Wellstone's dead.

There are suspicions that some type of magnetic weapon brought the plane down, and there's evidence for that. I will never believe it was just an accident, no matter whether it's ever definitively proven or not.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MoonRiver]

26. Are you defending the rightwing here,

Slice?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dpbrown]

22. Polls were showing him rising

And he was going to win.

Coleman knew it, too.

DPB

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dpbrown]

33. You made the contention, you prove it

I never said Coleman killed Wellstone.

You made a bald assertion that Coleman would have beaten Wellstone. I disagreed.

You've made a pattern, in fact, of taking decidedly conservative positions on every thread you've posted in today. So tight do they conform to dittohead talking points that...nah, that couldn't be now, could it.

Enjoy your time at DU.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[MoonRiver]

27. Sounds like you were in favor of that.

[Dunedain]

29. I disagree

I am from Minnesota, and Paul Wellstone was about as close to our 'Happy Warrior' as any man could get. I believe Paul could have been anything he wanted to be for the state of Minnesota. Norman Coleman was and is a carpet bagger. This world lost a decent honest man that day, and he will sorely be missed.

[tkmorris]

18. Good

Don't question anything. Life is so much easier that way.

[leyton]

37. Well, Edwards' son was an accident.

Edwards' son died two years, I think, before he ran for Senate, and John Edwards was not active in politics until he was a Senator.

[Killarney]

12. Is there something new in the news about this?

Link???

[JackRiddler]

14. Bush speaks truth - my four favorite quotes

"Throughout the 20th century, small groups of men seized control of great nations, built armies and arsenals and set out to dominate the weak and intimidate the world. In each case, their ambitions of cruelty and murder had no limit."

G.W. Bush, State of the Union speech, 1/28/2003

-------------------

"This would be easier if it was a dictatorship. But only if I was the dictator."

G.W. Bush, 12/18/2000
On his appointment by the Supreme Court

---------------------

"Lucky me, guess I hit the trifecta."

Standard Bush joke about the 9/11 attacks (late 2001)

---------------------

"We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty."

G.W. Bush to UN General Assembly, 11/10/2001

...........

[maggrwaggr]

41. wow, hadn't seen that last quote

that's a doozy.

What I like about this administration is how if you don't believe their lies, you're a "conspiracy theorist".

At the same time, I have yet to see any evidence Wellstone was murdered.

[RBHam]

67. Absence of evidence can equal official coverups

http://www.assassinationscience.com/

The pattern has been obvious since they offed JFK.

[alittlelark]

93. If you don't believe their LIES, you're a Conspiracy Theorist

I'm printing that one up as a bumper sticker!!! WOW, that's great!:yourock:

[ShaneGR]

16. What are the details with these Utah Republicans

What did they say/do?

[HowdyDUit]

19. Was there ever any doubt that Bush had Wellstone killed?

I didn't think so.

[JNelson6563]

23. I've never thought it "kooky"

I believed it when it happened and I still believe it today. Wellstone was whacked.

Julie

[RowWellandLive]

42. Do you believe Mel Carnahan was whacked?

Or do you think that was an accident?

[arewethereyet]

24. no, still kooky

private aircraft are subject to problems as a regular maintenance schedule is less of an issue to someone rying to make ends meet with one of a handful of craft.

[scarletwoman]

30. What does "regular maintenance" have to do with it?

The NTSB report on the Wellstone crash specifically ruled out mechanical failure.

If you want to make an argument, at least have some facts in hand.

sw

[RowWellandLive]

34. Pilot error

was the official cause and I believe it. Planes do crash. After Carnahan the Republicans were scared out of their wits of a sympathy vote. No one could have predicted what happened at the memorial and the backlash.

[arewethereyet]

35. even worse, incompetent pilots, same root cause

small time carrier without the wherewithall to operate safely

so unless the pilots were muslim, there is no story.

[RowWellandLive]

38. The pilot had a spotty record

and the co-pilot was inexperienced. I could never be a politician. I hate to fly. Especially on small planes. Even a prominent Senator is not guaranteed a competent crew. :scared:

Because Wellstone was much beloved and the end result of his death was Coleman winning, some people here will persist in believing it was murder despite all the logical evidence to the contrary.

We have are wacky tinfoil stuff just like they do. Vince Foster, Ron Brown, etc. Emotions and wishful thinking often take over when passions are high. A horrible accidental death of a great liberal icon in a stupid plane crash is hard to accept. A few will continue to believe this was murder no matter what.

[maggrwaggr]

40. I agree, this "I just KNOW it was murder" stuff really bugs me

It's all about belief, not about facts.

I sure wouldn't put anything past the right-wing, but unless there's some evidence, it seems like conspiracy theory stuff.

[RowWellandLive]

45. I don't put anything past the right wing either

it just doesn't make any sense considering what happened after Carnahan died in similar circumstances. Combine that with the NTSB report and this stuff seems truly conspiracy nutty.

[Cat Atomic]

51. I'm with you.

[tobius]

68. didn't you hear there were suspicions of a magnetic weapon?

what about the guy yelling "bin laden" to his wife; doesn't he know it was MIHOP or at least LIHOP? Didn't he see the pictures of the missile being shot from the plane into the towers right before impact?

[burythehatchet]

56. YEAH, you're right

just another m*****f*****g coincidence that benefits the repukes. They are so M*****F*****G lucky.

[JackRiddler]

43. so there we go...

Now go ahead and repeat the obvious through the next 235 steps.

"Small planes can crash! Here are 38 facts that show small planes can crash. They may have nothing to do with the circumstances of the Wellstone crash, but there they are. Assassinations do not happen in this country, that's conspiracy theory! Inadmissable! Inconceivable! Are you accusing X of murder? They would get caught! Presumption of innocence! Only the weakheaded think that! Scientific adult expert opinion says: small planes can crash. This is science! You are discrediting all liberals! For shame! We are experienced! I am a pilot! We know!"

Continue denials ad infinitum etc. Never, ever admit the obvious possibility of the assassination hypothesis.

[tobius]

70. Possibility-yes , Evidence---no

Possible does not equal even probable.

no evidence does not equal- " see, there isn't any evidence! Isn't THAT suspicious? That is their M.O.- can't you see it! They never leave any evidence, it's a pattern! See, they've gotten to you, even you are protecting them with your lies; and you don't even know your lying! god your a fool, just a tool in the hands of the evil cabal."
Agent Smith: Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.

[JackRiddler]

71. Circumstantial evidence is evidence

Sufficient to initiate criminal investigation or at least an inquest that considers a criminal act as a legitimate initial hypothesis!

The circumstantial case is in post 64.

What, pray tell, is initially the evidence of an accident?

The NTSB put it on the pilot - that's circumstantial as well. Pilot error is not something you can establish in the way of physical evidence of a part failing. You blame him, based on circumstantial evidence (he was tired, incompetent, etc.), presuming his responsibility without 100 percent proof.

Actually this is acceptable. I am demonstrating that circumstantial evidence is used; we are often left only with circumstantial evidence. Fair convictions are often delivered on it.

You have a mental block that tells you, accident is a legitimate default hypothesis, crime is not. This is mistaken.

Given that in the world, assassinations (not by plane) kill a similar number of high-level politicians as plane crashes, both hypotheses begin at least equal.

The evidence of your mental block is that you cannot concede this point and simply say, "well, I still lean to accident." You feel a need to disparage the crime hypothesis. Why? I feel no such need with accident; it's possible. I lean to crime because of the circumstantial case.

[tobius]

75. I lean to accident. Thanks, my mental block seems to have been removed!

Chem trails- don't you think the possibility that Wellstone saw evidence that his plane was spraying mind control drugs over battleground states and threatened to expose it, caused the leaders to push the self destruct button a little hastily- should at least be investigated? There were reports that day of strange looking vortexes in the area.

I think that because that issue has yet to be resolved it is indicia of a cover up at the least and evidence that they think we will "whistle pass the graveyard" and continue consuming our six-packs and remain glued to Survivor at the worst.

[dflprincess]

47. Personally, at the time Carnahan died,

I accepted it as an accident. But, when the same thing happened to Wellstone (and I believe it was murder), I decided the odds were that Carnahan's death was no accident.

I know a lot of people who think Wellstone was murdered and that Bush was behind it. Some of these folks are not especially political. In the first few weeks after he died I knew that if someone started a conversation with me with the words "I don't usually think this way, but..." I'd hear they thought it was murder and thought they could talk to me about it because they know I'm am active.

Not that that proves anything. But, even if it was somehow established beyond any doubt it was an accident, you have to wonder how we ever got to the point that so many people are willing to assume that the (alleged) President of the United States is capable of having a US Senator murdered.

[RowWellandLive]

53. If Carnahan was murdered

and went on to win an election after his death (Ashcroft was slightly ahead in the polls before the crash), why in the world would they put themselves in this situation again?? It makes no sense at all!

All the Republicans I know, and I know quite a few, were already lamenting their loss in MN as soon as they heard about Wellstone's death. Based upon past experience that was logical. Without a crystal ball it would seem like political suicide to murder Wellstone.

If Carnahan was killed with such disastrous political results, why do it again?? Think logically please.

Popular Republican Senator John Heinz was killed in a plane crash. Was that murder? Plane crashes happen all the time. That is why I hate to fly!!!

[JackRiddler]

64. illogical...

everyone pro and con is talking as though this would be some kind of top-down RNC operation based on a memo or political strategy session with the welfare of the "Republican Party" in mind. (As though the party was the sovereign unit!)

The government is run by octopoid factions of corporate oligarchs who are hardly averse to plunder or force; gangsters, if you prefer. The operative reigning faction at the moment is not the Republicans per se but the Bush mob, whose program from the start was to enforce discipline and unity at home and wage ambitious new wars to seize key assets abroad (both actually crucial to the maintenance of an empire and economy in crisis).

An assassination of Wellstone eliminates the de facto leader of the antiwar charge in the Senate during the crucial period of the buildup to the Iraq invasion - the months after Nov. 2002 in which a victorious Wellstone, assuming he had won Minnesota on the strength of his vote against the Iraq War Resolution, would have likely become a prominent and aggressive national spokesperson of the peace movement.

Thus the point of a Wellstone assassination from the view of the Bush mob is to eliminate a political enemy at an opportune time. How the Minnesota election turns out afterwards is a gamble, and probably irrelevant; a victorious Mondale is no great threat of leading a minority uprising in the legislature.

The thrill for the masterminds is presumably in getting rid of a long-running annoyance; or perhaps only a face disliked from afar. Whim and murder by remote control are not far apart in the rarefied atmosphere of world rulers; a reality so distant from most people that they have trouble conceiving of it except as fiction. But it is real. The team that accomplishes the deed is far removed from the political leadership, who set it in motion with no more than a sighed wish, a wink and a nod. The order could originate at a top or middle level of the mob's hierarchy.

So he is killed. Instead of having a potentially strong avatar, the antiwar movement (and, conveniently, most of the legislature) is once again struck with fear and helplessness. The election loss follows as a bonus, sealing the coup. The vagueness of the act, the use of strategic accident, is all the more powerful in leaving liberals clueless rather than angry (as they would be in the case of an open assassination).

This is political terror, in the most basic sense.

Do I know for sure there was an assassination? No, but I understand how politics work. I know that mob-style hits happen. I know that in this country, the perpetrators thereof have always gotten away with the crime, and have reason to be confident they will always get away with it; they have learned that crime pays. One day that may undo them, when they overreach; the corollary is "that those who win in a rigged game, get stupid."

The deed fit the program and the time perfectly.

Any other country in the world, there would be open speculation about it. Though the assassins would also escape justice, no one would be presumed crazy for considering one of two obvious hypotheses. Only in the U.S. do we harbor such illusions about the purity and essential fair play of our political system that the assassination hypothesis is characterized by its opponents not just as unlikely, but as evidence of mental disorder.

The assassination hypothesis is valid alongside an accident hypothesis. An accident can happen at any time; whereas the most likely time for an assassination of Wellstone was the very day on which he and his family were killed.

The only way to determine the truth is to recognize the initial, equal validity of both hypotheses. Neither hypothesis can be assigned the role of default hypothesis without prejudicing the outcome. If you do not investigate for a crime, you will not discover one.

To have treated this as a potential criminal case would not have been to presume the guilt or innocence of any party in advance; that is how white-collar and racketeering investigations often work, seeking out crimes on the basis of a reasonable suspicion without even knowing at first whether a crime was even committed. Reasonable suspicion for initiating investigation is a much lower standard than that required for indictment, let alone trial.

The Utah dry-drunks who told the joke have done an indirect service by showing the mindset in which a Wellstone assassination would seem normal; at the very least, they understand that hardball exists.

[Judi Lynn]

76. No, Ashcroft most certainly was NOT slightly ahead in the polls

at any time during the campaign with Mel Carnahan.

I live in the region and watched the campaign closely, even closely following their debate the weekend before Mel Carnahan was killed.

How the hey do you think the people of Missouri were driven to vote for Mel Carnahan's name during the election, even after he had been killed, if Ashcroft had been somewhat in the lead?

That would be a Republican delusion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(snip) Missouri Governor's Death and the U.S. Senate Leadership


10/17/00
Beloved Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan, his son and pilot Roger Carnahan, and Carnahan's campaign aide, Chris Sifford, were all killed last night in the crash of their small plane 25 miles from St. Louis. Gov. Carnahan was on a campaign trip in his effort to unseat Republican U.S. Sen. John Ashcroft in November.

Carnahan stood a good chance of beating Ashcroft and contributing to a new Democratic Senate majority. Carnahan's death turns the election and the a Democratic leadership takeover of the U.S. Senate into question.

Carnahan's name will remain on the Missouri ballot, and he could defeat Ashcroft posthumously. If Carnahan does win, the new Democratic governer would appoint the Senator. Conceivably, the new Governor could appoint himself, or he could appoint someone else, including Carnahan's widow, to the seat.

The Democrats will not go quietly, and most assuredly will be "getting out the vote" for their popular late governor.
(snip/)

http://www.politicsandelections.com/usa/hotnews/hotnewsoct2000.htm

Don't try to kid people who know better.

[RowWellandLive]

90. Who's kidding who?

John Ashcroft is the incumbent Senator from Missouri.The Republican held a small lead over governor Carnahan when the Democrat, his son and a campaign aide died in a plain crash, two weeks ago. Ashcroft immediately suspended campaigning for the Senate seat both men were contesting.

http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/usa001031.html

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[locustfist76]

99. I agree

It's nothing but blind hatred in this forum. I hope John Kerry has got more to say then most people in the forum. Where are the good issue-related discussions? Pure hatred cannot beat Bush in 2004...good, original ideas can.

[JackRiddler]

100. don't confuse things emotionally

I don't hate Bush. He's nothing.

[bobbieinok]

109. ????????

....

[nannygoat]

110. You have to remember that in the case of Wellstone, his wife was

killed as well. At least in the case of Carnahan, his wife was alive and she was able to take his place. Maybe * and his evil minions learned something from that.

[9215]

115. Wellstone was a ringer to win, and his death

occurred a few days before the replacement deadline. This required to Dems to run another candidate, plus, Wellstone's wife couldn't run like Carnahan's, because she died too. Mondale jumping in this late put the seat up for grabs. The Senate then turned majority for the Repugs.

[alittlelark]

94. How many Repub's have died in small plane crashes

in the past few years? Inquiring minds want to know!

[HowdyDUit]

44. Was there ever a doubt that some repub rigged the airplane?

I didn't think so.

[arewethereyet]

50. apparantly so

they would have to have rigged the idiot pilot

[dflprincess]

52. Mpls Star Tribune February 23, 2003

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3668854.html

<snip>
Steve Thornton, the air traffic controller who handled the first weather briefing and listened to a recording of the second briefing after the crash, told investigators he was concerned that someone was putting pressure on the pilot of Wellstone's plane to make the flight. Thornton told investigators he believed the pilot was "more stressed and apprehensive about the flight" during the second briefing, which was given by another controller.


It was well know that both Paul and Sheila were nervous flyers, it's a safe bet they weren't the ones putting pressure on the pilot.

[tobius]

72. when they rigged the pilot the wires were transmitting tiny

electromagnetic chemical SSRI's {selective seratonin reuptake inhibitors} these were to reduce his anxiety level so that when the flashing laser pulses were directed alternately to his retinas in an incrementally randomized algorithm, it would be much easier for the actions he was trained to do while he was drugged with a new, experimental version of LSD, would take over his initial reaction of following standard procedure and cancelling the flight.

This of course was all digitally recorded and some portions are available only to the individuals in charge of the highly feared NWO psyops division.

[JackRiddler]

73. Our life is what our thoughts make it, says Aurelius?

In yours I suppose assassinations never happen and everyone who suggests they do is like your caricature.

The same caricature is sometimes applied by the mainstream media to the entire left; even to think there was something fishy about the Iraq war is "conspiracy theory."

[tobius]

78. assassinations do happen, have happened, will happen.

Is that proof that assassination happened to Wellstone? in a word: no.

The inner hierarchy of the Episcopagan church is properly viewed not merely as something within the established Church of England, but as a coordinating agency for an array of forces with arms not only among Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern autocephalic denominations....It controls, with complicity of Venice, Libya's psychotic Colonel Khadafy, and most of the New York Council on Foreign Relations, as well as the psychological warfare and assassination arm of British intelligence, the London Tavistock Institute."

"Why the Anglicans Want to Eliminate the Pope", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Executive Intelligence Review, June 2, 1981

[ElsewheresDaughter]

87. OnStar has the techno to control your car why wouldn't this be pausable?

Every Step you Take: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/10/21427/8342

OnStar Bugging Your Car


Would it surprise you to find out that the FBI might be able to monitor private conversations in your car? A recent court case revealed that the FBI used the popular OnStar system to do just that.

GM cars equipped with OnStar are supposed to be the leading edge of safety and technology. OnStar has run a recent blitz of commercials citing helpless motorists calling in with every type of emergency, from a heart attack to locking the keys inside the car. In the advertising world, OnStar reacts quickly by sending help or even unlocking the car.

However, buried deep inside the OnStar system is a feature few suspected – the ability to eavesdrop on unsuspecting motorists.

The FBI found out about this passive listening feature and promptly served OnStar with a court order forcing the company to give it access. The court order the FBI gave OnStar was not something out of the Patriot Act involving international terrorism or national security but a simple criminal case.

<snip>
Open for Abuse

Further analysis of the OnStar design reveals that the FBI may not be the only one listening in. According to my own electronics experts, foreign intelligence services or even technically savvy organized crime groups could invoke the passive OnStar feature.

The system used by the FBI for law enforcement purposes is open for abuse. That abuse could span the spectrum of illegal operations from criminal activity to commercial espionage to military espionage. It is not hard to envision a foreign intelligence service using the covert OnStar feature to monitor the conversations of unknowing government employees, contractors or officials

[Indiana Democrat]

46. No. It's still a "Kook Theory".

Or are you trying to tell me these idiot pukes in Utah are the brains behind this murdurer conspiracy??

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomNickell]

83. Naif? No.

It's naive (and kooky) to believe things for which there is no evidence.

Assassinations happen, but you have to have evidence.

[bvar22]

103. The Sun revolves around the Earth...

the atom is the smallest particle of matter.
No aircraft can exceed the speed of sound.

I'm glad KOOKY theorists that continued to ask the open minded questions.

Evolution and Gravity are still just theories.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!

[bvar22]

104. The Sun revolves around the Earth...

the atom is the smallest particle of matter.
No aircraft can exceed the speed of sound.

I'm glad KOOKY theorists continued to ask the open minded questions.

Evolution and Gravity are still just theories.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!

[Fight_n_back]

48. Still waiting for evidence

We know Kennedy was murdered by a conspiracy because the evidence says so.

Do you have any evidence? I mean not the kind of evidence like the planes on 9/11 were flown by robots but actual evidence.

There is enough real stuff to get outraged about without getting nutty over everything that happens. The surprising thing is that more politicians, rock stars and college sports teams AREN'T killed in small aircraft.

Was the Big Bopper murdered too? How about Stevie Ray Vaughn? Or the Oklahoma State basketball team? Or Bill Graham? Did Mick Jagger murder Brian Jones? Is Paul really dead? Did Pop Rocks kill Mikey? Does Bubble Yum have spider eggs in it?

Enquiering minds want to know.

[bvar22]

62. Is it possible?

Is it possible that Wellstone was murdered?

Is the technology available to crash that plane without leaving evidence? (Hint: The correct answer is YES)

Based solely on the timing, the specific threat from Cheney, and the fact that the latest poll showed Wellstone would win, I believe that it is probable that he was murdered. I can offer no proof. You cannot offer proof that this was a pure and simple accident.

So, we are left to our opinions. I have stated mine.

[Indiana Democrat]

81. I can't offer any PROOF that Santa Claus DOESN'T exist, either.

[bvar22]

97. The existence of Santa Claus...

...violates many known rules of physics.
Your point is invalid, though your opinion is valid. This crash is possibly just a tragic accident.

However, it is possible to crash a small plane without leaving obvious evidence. The technology exists and is available to the right people, and it would not require anything as complex as an EMP pulse Star Wars weapon. It could be done much more simpley, on command, with the direct knowlege of only one person.

[Zan_of_Texas]

63. Jeez

What would convince those of you who believe there is no evidence that Wellstone's plane crash was not an accident?

An FBI report, and finding who did it?

An NTSB report, showing that the most likely cause was foul play?

We can agree, those two things do not exist.

Lacking that, is there something that would convince you?

Would the fact that 8 people in a small plane crashed, one a U.S. Senator, in a time of heightened alert and Homeland Security and orange alerts and snipers, and the IMMEDIATE official reaction was, no, this was not terrorism -- would that at least make you wonder? How did they know, right away, before an investigation?

I think it's hard to step over that line, the line where you are suddenly living in a world that is infinitely more dangerous, infinitely more corrupt, than you are prepared to accept. A world where someone would murder a U.S. Senator is not a world I want to live in. But, no one asked my permission.

I am sad, utterly sad to report that if you do the research, if you go where the facts lead you, you must step over that line and at least admit that there is no good explanation for that crash. There is no good explanation for the lack of contact from the pilots, no good explanation for the incredible extent of the fire, no good explanation no good explanation. And the bad explanation, the foulplay explanation, is not something to eagerly embrace. But it is simply there.



1. Fatal Airline Crashes Are NOT That Common

"The following fatal airliner mishaps occurred during 1999/2000/2001/2002. In each event, at least one passenger was killed. These events include all jet passenger flights and turboprop accidents involving models with more than 10 passengers seats and which are used in airline service in North America and western Europe. These events include passenger fatalities due to hijackings, sabotage, or military action.
This includes all commercial and charter planes.

There were 13 in 1998, <br>
14 in 1999, <br>
14 in 2000 including Gov. Carnahan's, <br>
17 in 2001<br>
and 13 in 2002, including Wellstone's.

Wellstone and Carnahan both just happened to be on two (separate crashes) of 44 total world-wide fatal flight crashes in over three years, or, said another way, five percent of fatal plane crashes involved a Democratic Senator or Senate candidate leading in the polls, days before the election.
http://www.airsafe.com/events/last_15.htm

2. In the past twenty years, there had never been a fatal crash at the Eveleth airport.

"The FAA's Accident/Incident Database shows five aircraft accidents occurring at the Eveleth airport since 1981. None of them involved more than minor damage. Please note that these accidents predate the Wellstone crash. They are presented as they appear in the FAA database." http://www.aviationpolicy.org/wellstone/FAA_aids_KEVM.htm

3. The plane was known as "one of the most safe and capable turboprops around," easy to fly, with full de-icing capabilities.

"The Beech King Air that Sen. Paul Wellstone boarded in St. Paul Friday morning had a solid track record as one of the most popular workhorses in the sky.
...Bill King, vice president of Cirrus Design Corp., a Duluth-based manufacturer of smaller single-engine airplanes, said King Air enjoys a reputation as one of the most safe and capable turboprops around." Oct. 25, 2002,
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/4371871.htm, "Team to search for crash causes" In the decade preceding the Wellstone crash, there were only three other fatal crashes of the Beech 100. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp None of the reports mentions a high degree of destruction due to fire, as in this crash.

4. There were two pilots, and two engines. One pilot could fly and land the plane if necessary, and one engine is sufficient. In addition, the plane had radioed not a single sign of trouble, and was minutes from landing.

Look at who is investigating for the government, and notice the silence.

The investigation is overseen by the FBI (top guy at the Justice Department: John Ashcroft, the fellow who was running against Carnahan when Carnahan's plane went down) and the NTSB. The point person at NTSB is Carol Carmody, http://www.ntsb.gov/Abt_NTSB/bios/carmody.htm
who also investigated the Carnahan crash, and who lists in her resume a stint at the CIA.

The silence of the investigation is also interesting. By the time 6 or 8 people were shot by a sniper in Washington, the whole country was up in arms and the media led with the story for THREE WEEKS. We had to see types of rifles, we had to see maps, they closed schools in an area of several million people. Eight people die in a plane crash, including a US Senator in a crucial race days before an election, and "there's nothing to see here, folks. Keep moving. Bad weather mumble mumble." Nearly six months later, and there was one paragraph posted at the NTSB site, called "preliminary."

How did the NTSB structure its investigative teams? They had a team on weather, a team on the engines, a team on the pilots. Did they have a team to investigate the possibility of terrorism (remember, we are at war, says our president)? No. A team to investigate foul play? No.

Would unethical people kill someone to further their interests? Would unethical people put 150,000 troops in harm's way in Iraq to further their interests?

????

[JackRiddler]

74. I love it!

I didn't know this... great work!

Wellstone and Carnahan both just happened to be on two (separate crashes) of 44 total world-wide fatal flight crashes in over three years, or, said another way, five percent of fatal plane crashes involved a Democratic Senator or Senate candidate leading in the polls, days before the election.
http://www.airsafe.com/events/last_15.htm

[TrogL]

114. Here we go again.

Logical fallacies up the ying-yang.

1. Fatal Airline Crashes Are NOT That Common

Neither is being hit by a bus. Nevertheless my employer insists I keep an up to date "Hit by a bus" file just in case. Just because something is uncommon does not make it impossible.

2. In the past twenty years, there had never been a fatal crash at the Eveleth airport.

Same logic. Same response.

3. The plane was known as "one of the most safe and capable turboprops around," easy to fly, with full de-icing capabilities.

Same logic. As Stickdog has pointed out, de-icing was not a major (or perhaps even any) factor in the crash. Any plane will crash in the right circumstances.

4. There were two pilots, and two engines.

Planes with four, six or even eight engines crash. I saw footage of an eight-engine B-52 with two pilots onboard crashing at an airshow because the lead pilot did something stupid.

They had a team on weather, a team on the engines, a team on the pilots.

Certainly. They had a team collecting and analyzing weather evidence. They had a team collecting and analyzing engine evidence. They had a team collecting and analyzing pilot evidence. Given the wealth of photographic evidence, somebody was examining the remainder of the aircraft. We also have evidence that somebody was looking at the control tower, the radar and lots of other stuff.

Out of evidence comes conclusions!!!

You've got it backwards. You have long since reached the conclusion of foul play or conspiracy and appear to be upset that the evidence doesn't support it.

This has been argued to death:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=17035&forum=DCForumID61

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=24448&forum=DCForumID61&archive=yes

and at least two other places.

[Fight_n_back]

127. First of all

Do not make the assumption that I don't believe he was murdered because I am naive. I have studied many conspiracies and conspiracy theories and that is why I asked for EVIDENCE.

The preponderence of evidence in the JFK, RFK and MLK murders show them to be conspiracies. The JFK case is so obviuosly a conspiracy that it is almost more irrational to dismiss conspiracy than embrace it.

I have been shown no EVIDENCE that Wellstone was murdered. Was it strange timing? Yes, but so was Vince Foster's suicide.

Was Ron Brown murdered? Stevie Ray Vaughn? Davis Love III?

Does the Bush cabal have it in them to murder someone? Yes, they do. Have they probably done it in the past? I think so. Did they do it in this case? Please show me SOMETHING because I am one guy who would really like to believe it.


Please show me something real, not just conjecture.

[RememberWellstone]

58. Don't get me started.

The depths of evil are deep in the RNC. They have made witnesses to Bush's wrongdoings disappear. Rove is an assassin in his own right. Someone in the Pug party wanted Paul dead, someone close to Bush. Why? What is the motive? Paul had the vision for the future of the DNC. He was the brightest star of the Democratic future. He was the Presidential candidate that could have won this year and carry the idealogical torch for the party. There are too many unanswered questions in his death. I will hold the opinion that he was murdered by the evil hearts of money-hungry Republicans fearful of his vision, plans and purpose. This is the party who gets rid of ANY threats against it's agenda. Someone saw Paul as a threat to the future of Pug politics. They found a way to murder a great man in a plain sight. Don't give me their litany of rightwing talking points either. He was murdered.

One of the greatest travesties in American history. Sad and angered at losing a true, great leader. He will always be an inspiration to me until I die. The last great fighter for the common man. Period.

[RowWellandLive]

61. Wellstone was a great man

but there is no way he would have ever been elected President. They know this as do most realistic Democrats. He was NOT a threat on the national stage. If he was our nominee the Republicans would jump for joy. If you choose to believe he was murdered that's one thing, but don't delude yourself into believing he was going to be elected President. He was way to the left, among other negatives. He would never win the nomination, let alone the White House. Get a grip!!

[JackRiddler]

65. Agreed

Wellstone WAS a potential threat to the war drive, however, which at that moment meant much more than the 2004 election.

[JackRiddler]

66. Plane deaths of U.S. politicians

Rep. Thomas Hale Boggs. 1972.
Rep. Nicholas Joseph Begich. 1972.
(ABOVE IS THE SAME FLIGHT: ALASKA AIR. DISAPPEARED. NEVER FOUND. BOGGS WAS ON WARREN COMMISSION AND HAD RECENTLY SAID HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE REPORT.)

Rep. George Washington Collins. 1972.
(MARTHA MITCHELL, ESTRANGED WIFE OF ATTY. GENL AND POTENTIAL WHISTLEBLOWER WAS ON THIS PLANE: UA at MIDWAY, IL.)

Rep. Jerry Lyle Pettis. 1975.
Rep. Jerry Lon Litton. 1976.
Rep. Ralph Frederick Beermann. 1977.
(ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE ABOVE 3 CASES?)

Rep. Lawrence Patton McDonald. 1983. (KAL 007)

Senatorial candidate Richard D. Obenshain. 1978.
Jim Waltermire, secretary of state of Montana. 1988.
(ANYONE KNOW?)

Arnold Lewis Raphel, US Ambassador to Pakistan. 1988.
(THIS WAS ON THE CRASH OF ZIA, DICTATOR OF PAKISTAN, THOUGHT TO BE A HIT-JOB FROM THE PAKISTANI MILITARY.)

Rep. Mickey Leland. 1989.
Rep. Larkin I. Smith. 1989.
(ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THESE GUYS?)

Senator Henry John Heinz III. 1991.
John Tower, defeated in nomination for secretary of defense. 1991.
(CONSECUTIVE DAYS IN APRIL 1991)

Gov. George Mickelson. 1993.

Ron Brown, US secretary of commerce. 1996.
(CROATIA. SAID TO HAVE A BULLET IN HIS HEAD. OFTEN USED AGAINST CLINTON, LIKE MENA & VINCE FOSTER, THOUGH MENA AT LEAST DID HAPPEN AND IT WAS HARDLY CLINTON BUT BUSH AND NORTH WHO WERE IN CHARGE.)

State Rep. Cecil Weeding. 1998.

Former State Rep. Grover Robinson. 2000.
Former State Senator Thomas Allgood. 2000.
Former State Rep. Charles Yates. 2000.
(APPARENTLY SAME PLANE?)

2000. Gov. Mel Carnahan, Ashcroft opponent in imminent election. Doesn't sound like a sure murder to me, but well remembered. Happens a few days before the Bush regime coup d'etat.

1999. JFK Jr., possible future candidate for president, possibly a skeptic about his father's death, possessed the means to pursue independent investigation, rumored to be doing so, rumored to be considering the presidency, piloting own plane with wife, flies into LI Sound.

Senator Paul Wellstone. 2002.

Only two active Sens. on this list: Heinz and Wellstone. Tower retired, Carnahan a candidate.

[Judi Lynn]

77. Here's another Democrat for your list. He was a biggie in Missouri in '76

(snip) Crash recalls earlier tragedy
Monday's crash was eerily reminiscent of a 1976 tragedy that claimed the life of Missouri Congressman Jerry Litton.

Litton was running for the U.S. Senate seat of retiring Democratic incumbent Stuart Symington. Litton won the primary on August 3, 1976. That evening, Litton, his wife and children were killed when their plane crashed en route to a victory celebration in Kansas City.
(snip/)

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/17/carnahan.plane.05/

Missourians took this really hard, too.
Thank you.

[bvar22]

101. Don't forget Hale Boggs.

*

[9215]

116. And Litton's death moved Ashcroft into state's AG

position. :tinfoilhat:

[DemBones DemBones]

79. Rep. Larry McDonald (R-GA), 1983 KAL crash, was an

interesting case. He was my congressman, though I certainly did not vote for him. He was a physician (a urologist, I think) who got in some trouble prescribing Laetrile to cancer patients. They had to go to Mexico to get it as the FDA wouldn't approve it. Larry was also national VP of the John Birch Society. KAL 007 (!!!) was shot down by the evil Russians! A lot of people contended at the time, and some still contend, that Larry McDonald was the target.

If you Google Larry McDonald you find some interesting stuff. I figured The Prophet Project: The New World Order Unveiled should be an interesting site. Sure enough, it's an Illuminati/ Council on Foreign Relations "conspiracy" site. It lists JFK as "killed by One World conspirators." And here's what it says about Larry McDonald -- this is in the timeline with events such as JFK's death, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the passage of NAFTA:


1981
Congressman Larry McDonald calls for comprehensive congressional investigation of the CFR and Trilateral Commission. Congress is urged to investigate these organizations.


1983
Larry McDonald is killed along with 268 other passengers on Korean Air Lines (KAL) flight 007, shot down over Sakhalin Island in the Sea of Japan. All bodies recovered, except the bodies of the pilot and copilot. Some of the extremely suspicious information regarding KAL 007 include:

o Flight was off course with plenty of fuel. Commercial flights commonly take a short cut over Sakhalin when low on fuel. Radio response in Russian airspace commonplace, with Russian pilots monitoring path of commercial planes.

o Russian pilots radioed KAL 007 with no response from pilots.

o Russian pilots fired warning shots with visible tracers past cockpit, KAL pilots did no acknowledge warning shots or tracers.

o Two parachutes were seen by inhabitants of Aleutian islands prior to plane being shot down.

o Flight recorder recovered by US. submarine, data classified by CIA.



Interestingly, this site links to Take Back the Media, to many 9/11 sites,and to a massive BFEE source that has the unofficial bio of G.H.W. Bush and many, many links.

http://www.govsux.com/bushfiles.htm

[JackRiddler]

80. Trying to get a complete list of plane crash deaths...

By no means am I implying all of the above were intentional. Just astonished at the frequency with which it hits those in a strategic position to screw gangsters in govt. Boggs, Heinz, Tower... by the time of Wellstone it's entering on sadism, I doubt anyone considered it essential to get him, rather it's time to send some general messages.

But KAL 007, obviously was shot down. I doubt Larry MacDonald was a Soviet target. It's an insane way for the Soviets to kill a Congressman; they don't have Secret Service, the KGB should be able to do him as an "accident" without the crushing international incident.

So I guess you're arguing this was an American job - ?

This needs a lot more though than what's on that timeline. Was there news coverage? What did he actually say in his speech? Was it really a danger? Or just an example?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. The KAL report cited is wrong

Very few bodies were recovered. Most of the area where bodies would have been was Soviet territory and off-limits to U.S. and South Korean search parties.

The official Reaganite explanation was that the Soviets had shot down KAL007 just because they were nasty Soviets. The Republicans used it as a talking point in pushing for its military buildup, although they never explained how more nukes were supposed to prevent incidents like this.

I never accepted the "deliberate murder" scenario. Usually, when the Soviets did something on purpose, they brazened it out. "Yeah, we invaded Czechoslovakia, and we had good reasons!" After the Korean Air incident, there were a couple of days of embarrassed silence and reports that the commander of the base from which the missile had been fired had committed suicide.

Two alternative explanations emerged.

One was that NSA spy planes, which resembled 747s, had been active in the area and that the Soviets mistook KAL007 for a spy plane. The Soviets had a missile test scheduled for that day.

Another was published in The Nation. It told of previous unusual incidents in which South Korean planes had gone into Soviet airspace, including one that had crash-landed in Karelia. It quoted the wife of one of the South Korean pilots who said that he was being pressured by the Korean CIA to make these incursions into Soviet territory. It suggested that KAL007--with experienced pilots flying a well-established route-- had gone too far off course to be accounted for by accident.

The idea that Larry McDonald was targeted always struck me as being tinfoil hat.

[JackRiddler]

91. oh, I doubt the Larry McDonald theory very much...

KAL was far too spectacular just to get him. At most he's a welcome collateral addition. You want to get McDonald, you'll try to get him individually (or wait for his small plane flight). The magnitude of KAL suggests an accidental shootdown; or, if the Soviets were intentionally tricked, an intended embarrassment of Soviets and political haymaker. But I expect if it's fishy in the least, then only along the lines of what you're saying:

They played chicken with fighters and spy planes until finally this happened.

Remember how the U.S. propaganda treated the Iranian Airbus incident a few years later? KAL 007 (accident in Soviet airspace) was sheer evil. Dispatching a fleet to the other side of the planet and hitting the Airbus is just, shucks, accidents happen, and anyone who compared the two events a fool.

[2004Donkeys]

106. Heinz (first husband of the future First Lady) and Tower ...

knew something about Iran-Contra I think

[RBHam]

69. EMP weaponry - Weelstone, Carnahan, JFK Jr, Columbia...

http://www.assassinationscience.com/HERFData5.htm

http://www.assassinationscience.com/HERFData4.htm

[TomNickell]

82. Sorry, still kooky.

Unless some actual evidence emerges.

Or a working Electromagnetic Pulse Beam Gun (EMPBG).

[bvar22]

96. Doesn't have to be some fantastic Star Wars Weapon.

Encapsulated nerve toxin that can be released into the pilots' bloodstreams by a radio trigger are available to the right people. This technology has existed for at least a decade. Getting the capsule into the bloodstream can be a little tricky, but not impossible.

Looking at the information that has been provided by the government, I suspect a method that incapcitated the pilots over some mechanical weapon that incapicitated the aircraft.

Does the technology exist to crash a small plane without leaving evidence ??? The answer is YES!

[tobius]

98. absolutely! see post #44 and #72

the predator drones unveiled publicly recently are used to track small aircraft such as this one, "just in case". The campaign staffs are tied in directly to the remote flyers, when and if necessary they are equipped with psychological control devices and non-traceable EMP mini devices.
These "mini emps" or 'lil devils' can target on-board navi systems, control and command fail-safes, fuel and hydraulic pump controls in any combination needed to send plane off track or send a small warning of fear, up to and including complete destruction of said vehicle, w/o a trace.

Don't forget -this was critical training for the events of sept. 2001.

[Junkdrawer]

84. Do you know how good the timing was?

Paul died 10 days before the election. Had it been 9 days, his name would have stayed on the ballot.

[Solomon]

86. When republicans start dying in small plane crashes, then, and only

then, will I start believing the "accident" theories.

As far as I'm concerned, you can add John John to the list. He was about to run for governor of NY thus positioning himself for the whitehouse.

[2004Donkeys]

107. Heinz and Tower?

Except Heinz is more closely related to Kerry now than Bush.

[9215]

119. Tower probably knew where Poppy was on Oct. 22. 1963.

I'll wager. Poppy called the FBI that fateful day and said he heard a rumor that a man named James Parrot said he killed Kennedy. Parrot, coincidently was Towers political opponent at the time and Poppy was working on Towers campaign. :tinfoilhat:

Tower also did not do te Repugs any favor in Iran Contra.

[JackRiddler]

122. you mean...

JFK was shot a month before he was shot?

The implications are enormous!

But seriously, do you want to source the GWHB statement about Parrot? Thank you.

[9215]

130. Ooops. Here is the source.

This is from Dick Russell's book "The Man Who Knew Too Much".


....George Bush, a Texas oilman in 1963, is also found on the periphery of the assassination. As noted earlier in this book, his name appeared in George de Mohrenschildt's personal notebook and
bush was a friend of Marina Oswald's translator, Ilya Mamantov. When George Bush became CIA director (1976-78), Nagell is on record as having written to him about Robert Morrow's book "Betrayal"

The White House has denied that the president was the "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" idntified in a Novermber 1963, FBI memorandum as having been briefed by the FBI on the reacton of Miami's Cuban exiles. But there is no denying the existence of another recently released FBI memo, which begins:

"On Novermber 22, 1963, Mr. George H.W. Bush, 5525 Briar, Houston, Texas, telephonically advised that he wanted to relate some hearsay that he had heard in recent week, date and source unknown. He advised that on James Parrott had been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston."

An FBI investigation into Bush's charge failed to turn up any connection whatsoever tying James Parrott to the assassination. Parrott was then an active member of Houston's Young Republicans, who had been involved in picketing members of the Kennedy administration. Bush was then serving as campaign manager for future Republican senator John Tower. Since Parrott's group had come out strongly against a then nascent alliance between Texas Republicans and representatives of the petroleum industry, Bush and Parrott were political enemies..... (pp. 709-10)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Even out in Oregon

people who knew I was from Minnesota approached me and asked in hushed tones if I thought that Wellstone had been murdered.

This doesn't speak well of the Busheviks. Either they killed Wellstone, or they have built up such a slimy reputation that large numbers of people believe that they did.

I don't know what mechanism was used, since I'm not an aviation expert, but my gut says that they did it.

And how can such a conspiracy be kept secret? Easy. Under the law, you're liable to prosecution for first-degree murder if you either do the deed yourself or hire someone else to do it. Covering up evidence of a murder is also a major felony. What kind of lowlife willing to participate in such a scheme would then have the moral fibre to confess and take his punishment?

[JackRiddler]

95. kick

[JackRiddler]

105. Is it time to MoveOn (tm) ?

[JackRiddler]

108. final kick..

[Sparkle]

112. Is there a reason why you have a banner on your sigline

for a republican? This is Democratic Underground, ya know.

[JackRiddler]

121. Why don't you follow the link?

to John Buchanan's site? You'll figure it out, I am sure...

[Sparkle]

111. Can someone take pity on me and explain why

a lot of DUers think Wellstone was murdered? Did he vote against the Bush cabal before the plane accident? Was he an outspoken Democrat? I didn't know that much about him.

[tom_paine]

113. Some fairly good info here

www.assassinationscience.com/whykillwellstone.pdf

[TrogL]

117. This has been thoroughly debunked

see post 114

[Sterling]

120. I respect your opinion but that is hardly a "thorough debunking"

Just your opinion that is all. Great thread.

[tom_paine]

125. And the assassination attempt in Colombia? Was that also debunked?

Say what you will.

Political assassination is a tactic that has been used in all nation throughout history, not just by lone gunman but by heads of Parties.

Can we at least agree on that? Examples:

Marcos kills Aquino
Stalin kills Trotsky
Caligula murders Gemellus
Nero kills Britannicus
Antony & Augustus kill Cicero
etc etc etc since the dawn of time

You think our nation is immune? I've seen the numbers, it is MUCH more likely (particularly in the last 40 years) for a Democratic politician/leading candidate/rising star to "die suddenly" cut off before his years.

You can run around, putting out all the little fires you perceive and taking perverse pride in doing so. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but I've SEEN posts where you did that.

You can do that, and that will not change the simple fact I have laid out in bold above.

You make it sound as if it's not caught, then it didn't happen. It is now a historic fact that Livia poisoned Augustus with tainted figs. Do you think the contemporary Romans knew that?

Think about it. Say all you want.

Wellstone's life was attempted in Columbia in 2000 (and there was little to no news of it at all). That's a fact.

Political assassinations have been used in every age and by every nation by Parties/Rulers, not just lone gunmen (lone swordsmen?). America is not immune. The first statement is a fact. The second is pretty close to a fact.

We have one of the most corrupt and morally bankrupt administrations to ever rule this nation. They have committed acts of aggression under false pretenses, sent our soldiers to die and to kill over a lie. Wasted their efforts in Iraq when they could be digging al Quaeda cells all over the world. They are war criminals and heartless people, and I believe they are more than capable of LIHOPing a Colombian hit on Wellstone. Hell, they might have even provided security info for the Colombians, so they'd have an easy time doing whatever they did.

We'll NEVER know what happen, as much as you would like to believe accident is 100% certainty.

And you'll never convince me that late 20th/21st Century America is immune from what has gone on ince the beginning of human history.

[stopthegop]

126. many people think this..

because (IMO) they are unable to deal with the facts that:
1)Wellstone died at an inopportune time for the left
2)Wellstone's seat went to a republican
3)there might be a bad thing in the world that the Bush family did not cause

[9215]

118. "Paul Wellstone is a hunted man"

Wellstone was a hunted man (John Nichols)http://www.disinfo.com/pages/news/id2840/pg1/

"Paul Wellstone, Fighter
originally posted May 9, 2002
"Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."
That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine."

Bush Fears Tenacious, Popular Wellstone Published on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 in the Madison Capital Times by John Nichols ST. PAUL - U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone had just finished rousing a crowd of 2,000 trade unionists, farmers, environmentalists and students with a fiery condemnation of George W. Bush’s free trade policies, and now he had a problem. He couldn’t get down the steps of the Minnesota State Capitol here to join the march protesting Bush’s Free Trade Area of the Americas scheme. snip - Most of them also asked a question: "How come Bush hates you so much?" Let there be no doubt as to the identity of George W. Bush’s least favorite Democratic U.S. senator. It’s Wellstone, the rabble-rousing Progressive who represents not just Minnesota but what remains of the fighting populist spirit of the Upper Midwest. As Wellstone prepares to seek a third term next year, it would be reasonable to assume that he might finally be in for some smooth political sailing. But reasonableness doesn’t figure into the calculations of the Bush White House, where the president himself, Vice President Dick Cheney and political commissar Karl Rove practice the politics of vengeance. snip - Other Democratic senators who face re-election contests in 2002 are, according to polls, more vulnerable than Wellstone. But the Bush camp has been focusing highest-level attention on "Plan Wellstone" - its project to silence progressive opposition. snip - Last Tuesday as Minnesota House Majority Leader Tim Pawlenty was just hours away from announcing his intention to mount a Republican challenge to Wellstone, he got an urgent call from Rove asking him to step aside for Bush’s preferred candidate, St. Paul Mayor Norm Coleman. Then, on Wednesday morning, with just 90 minutes to go before his planned announcement, Pawlenty was driving his kids home from a dental appointment. The car phone rang, and Pawlenty found himself talking to Cheney. The vice president told Pawlenty that Bush did not want Coleman - a party-switching former Democrat who chaired the losing Bush presidential campaign in Minnesota - to face a difficult primary contest from a credible Republican. More: <http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0424-07.htm>



Besides this Wellstone was a serious threat to Cheney's Halliburton whose subsidiary Dresser had incurred alot of asbestos liabilities. Wellstone, along with Sen. Patty Murray (WA) was pushing for stricter asbestos safety standards. A very sensitive issue for the Bushies who nixed EPA warnings in 2002.

[saint_john]

129. I was wondering...

How long this thread would go before someone brought up the "W.R. Grace" factor.

Keep in mind that 3 Grace execs were on the plane that "crashed" in Charlotte, NC. What did THEY know?

[9215]

144. That really clinched it for me. Those execs died

just as discussion of Halliburton and asbestos and WTC were going good here at DU. Very wierd.

[9215]

123. "Who is this chickenshit!"

Below: http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen1025.html
CounterPunch
October 25, 2002
Pappy Bush on Paul Wellstone:
"Who Is This Chickenshit?"
by WAYNE MADSEN
Before we all get sucked into George W. Bush's eulogies of the late Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone let us not forget what his father, Bush 41, called the Senator at a White House reception for newly-elected members of Congress in 1991.
Wellstone, who ran on a progressive platform, did not think Bush 41 cared one wit about education, health care, and workers' safety issues.
So when Wellstone met Bush in a typical White House pro forma reception line, he used the occasion to urge Bush on three different occasions to spend more time on issues like education and cautioning him against the Persian Gulf War. Of course, Bush was more concerned about fighting the war against Iraq (sound familiar?) and could care less about Wellstone's issues.
After Wellstone violated Bush 41's sanctimonious White House protocol, Bush was overheard saying, "Who is this chicken shit?"

[tobius]

124. That quote right there did it for me

" Who is this chickenshit?".


If I had any doubts before, Holy Cow!.... my eyes are wiiide open now.

"In the spider-web of facts, many a truth is strangled."
-Paul Eldridge

[Zan_of_Texas]

131. 4 out of 50

If you write life insurance, think about whether you would be willing to write life insurance on Democratic Senators.

Sen. Carnahan -- dead of plane crash, as he was leading in Senate race.
Sen. Wellstone and family -- dead of plane crash, as he was leading in Senate race.
Sen. Daschle then-Senator Majority leader -- recipient of anthrax letter
Sen. Leahy then-head of Judiciary Committee -- recipient of anthrax letter

That's four out of the number of Democratic Senators (or in the case of Carnahan, a probable Senator) -- a number that averages fifty, dead or the subject of an attack that could have been fatal.

~~~~

This escaped the attention of many citizens, but Senators got strange warnings in the time frame. Remember, there were snipers running loose in D.C. AND, Bush was trying to get Congress to say yes to his proposed war against Iraq. (Wellstone's crash was October 25, 2002):

U.S. senators warned of al Qaeda snipers on golf courses

Friday, October 18, 2002 Posted: 9:19 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. senators were warned earlier this week that those who play golf may be targets of al Qaeda snipers on golf courses and were given tips on how to protect themselves, a U.S. Capitol Police spokeswoman said.

Police were notified about the potential threat to senators, said Marcia Krug, a Capitol Police spokeswoman. She would not say which agency notified the Capitol Police or when exactly they were told. But she said her department, in turn, notified the sergeant-at-arms, who then notified the senators that al Qaeda snipers might be looming near golf courses, ready to pick them off. The sergeant-at-arms, who is in charge of lawmakers' security, did suggest precautions the senators should take, Krug said. She would not elaborate.

The threat information was passed as a sniper, who has killed nine people and wounded two others in the Washington area, remains at large. Authorities investigating that case have said there is no evidence suggesting that a sniper working for a terrorist group is behind the shootings. Meanwhile, FBI agents have been questioning an al Qaeda suspect being held in Belgium who bragged to his interrogators that he had witnessed al Qaeda training for snipers, European intelligence sources said Friday. The FBI, one of many agencies involved in the Washington-area sniper shooting investigation, refused to confirm or deny it had sent agents to Brussels.

Nizar Trabelsi has been in custody since two days after the September 11 terror attacks in the United States, accused of plotting a suicide bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Paris. Trabelsi, who confessed to the plot in December, is interrogated regularly. FBI investigators have interviewed Trabelsi within the last two or three days, the European intelligence sources told CNN. The sources said Trabelsi told investigators of a plan in which snipers would attack American senators on a golf course, and described how fighters were trained to shoot targets from up to 250 meters (820 feet) and shoot from the back of pickup trucks. Belgian investigators reacted skeptically to any suggestion of a link with the D.C.-area shootings that began October 2, noting the suspect has had access to newspaper and TV accounts of the spree. <snip>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/18/alqaeda.snipers.senators/

[Zan_of_Texas]

132. possible methods?

I know zip about weaponry.

We've all seen guys with shoulder-fired missiles on tv news. We've heard that US airports want a larger perimeter of safety, exactly because they don't want someone to be able to shoot down a plane from the ground.

Here's some more areas of military development, if you want to get fancier than a shoulder-fired missile:

New high-energy laser can track an artillery shell travelling 1000 miles an hour, and explode it in flight. The Wellstone plane was travelling from about 85 to several hundred knots, so it would present a very large, slow target compared to an artillery shell. The technical question would be, how large is the machinery used? They say it is currently too large for a truck, but could there be a variety that is currently transportable by some sort of large truck?

Nov 17, 2002 2:44 pm
By ANDREW BRIDGES
Associated Press
Houston Chronicle -- SUN 11/10/02
LOS ANGELES -

Weapons that travel far faster than a speeding bullet are as little as five years from use in combat, say defense officials who used a laser to shoot an artillery shell out of the sky last week in a first-of-its-kind feat. The Army used a high-energy laser built by TRW Inc. to heat the shell and cause it to explode in flight. The test was successfully repeated a second time. The shell was fired from a howitzer at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. As it traveled at about 1,000 mph, it was tracked by radar and infrared heat sensors. Then it was locked onto and zapped by the laser beam traveling at light speed. The Mobile Tactical High-Energy Laser is a short-range weapon being developed with Israel, which wants it to destroy Katyusha rockets fired at its border villages by Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon.

The weapon, which looks like a searchlight, is one of a few laser devices the Pentagon is working on under the umbrella of missile defense. In earlier tests, the Army used the laser to shoot down 25 Katyushas, both singly and in salvos. Artillery shells, however, generate far less heat than rockets do and are more difficult to track. Also, since rockets are pressurized, they are easier to blow up than shells. "This was, science-wise, a significant accomplishment," said William Congo, a spokesman for the Army Space and Missile Defense Command. Before, the only defense against a shell was to add more armor, move out of the way or dig in, said Dan Goure , vice president of the Lexington Institute, a nonprofit think tank in Arlington, Va. "Now, in theory, this kind of capability allows you to deny that kind of attack," he said.

The laser could enter use in 2007. Since development began in 1996, the Army, the Israeli Defense Ministry and TRW have spent $250 million on the project.

It is designed for use against shells, mortars, short-range ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and air-to-surface munitions. It also could target helicopters and small aircraft, including drones. Officials hope to shrink the weapon enough to allow it to be mounted on a truck, allowing it to be deployed where needed.

[Stephanie]

133. Here's a thread that should not die

:kick:

[nomatrix]

134. The Carnahan Crash was pilot error

spatial disorientation

The NTSB recently released its final report on the airplane crash that killed Missouri Gov. Mel Carnahan, his son Randy Carnahan (the pilot of the aircraft) and campaign aide Chris Sifford.

The Board determined that the probable cause of the accident was the pilot’s failure to control the airplane while maneuvering because of spatial disorientation. Contributing to the accident were the failure of the airplane’s primary attitude indicator and the adverse weather conditions, including turbulence.

After blaming the pilot we find.....

Negligence by parts manufacturer

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) -- A jury found an airplane parts manufacturer negligent in the 2000 plane crash that killed Gov. Mel Carnahan and his son, and awarded their family $4 million.
The Carnahan family's attorney argued that a pair of vacuum pumps made by Parker Hannifin Corp. failed, causing the plane to crash. Killed were pilot Randy Carnahan, his father and Chris Sifford, a longtime aide to the governor.
The jury awarded compensatory damages of $3 million for Mel Carnahan and $1 million for Randy Carnahan. The jury did not award any punitive damages.
"Justice was served today," said Mel Carnahan's widow, Jean Carnahan. "My son was found not responsible for the death of my husband."

And Parker Hannifin knew it was the cause of 20 crashes.

[JackRiddler]

135. So was Wellstone...

As the NTSB more or less concluded in the latter case.

Guess that settles it.

Too bad it's the one explanation for an accident that can't actually be proven,

(the later jury award in the Carnahan case notwithstanding).

Carnahan I can sort of believe.

But not Carnahan AND Wellstone, after the anthrax attacks on Daschle and Leahy, and after the "Qaeda snipers to shoot Senators on golf course" warning. In the month of IWR. Uh uh. Sorry.

[nomatrix]

142. That was my point, Jack

NTSB would have you believe one thing. Many believe that is the end of it. They did the study, close the book. To suggest it was anything else is absurd.

But, on occasion, some with the fortitude to persevere, continue to search for the truth. In the Carnahan crash, it brought to light the negligence of the manufacturer who continued to install parts so vital to the aircraft, and KNOWN to be responsible for 20 crashes. If you follow any disaster history, changes are seldom made unless it affects the wallets of the business, or the hearts of the public.
This can be accepted, also. Maybe the NTSB was wrong.

For those who refuse to believe it possible to kill someone for political advantage, you may want to go back and study U.S. history. We have no problem thinking of the US taking out a foreign leader, covert or militarily.

Also Jack, not everyone who posts here lives in the US.

[KFC]

136. This bullshit comes up at least once a month

For the millionth time, prove he was murdered and mabye someone might listen.

Proof as in a court of law.

[JackRiddler]

138. lots of people are listening

Utah Republicans even joke about the obvious conclusion.

In the interesting months ahead, as the regime trots out whatever goodies they've prepared, I wonder how you will keep up your denial that nothing is engineered, all is coincidence.

[Zan_of_Texas]

146. hey

Prove you've posted that one million times.

Would that be a court of law as in the same court that said Florida courts don't have jurisdiction on recounts?

Or, maybe a court of law with Judge Pickering in charge? Or maybe a court of law with Judge Pryor in charge? ...I could go on.

Okay, just for entertainment .....

Those who are pretty convinced the Wellstone plane crash was an accident --

Will you please lay out the following scenario for us.

HYPOTHETICAL

A Senate seat is worth, what, $10 million or so? No idea. A Senator who refuses to kowtow -- hmmm, might be worth more than that to have him, um, out of power. If you lack every moral fiber known to mankind. Okay, let's say you are that badass operator, with some connections to some people who know how to do bad stuff. You have pretty much as much money as you want.

Let's say you decide to off Senator Wellstone. Let's say you decide to kill him in a plane crash.

Tell us how it would look. Be very specific. Remember, you are not an amateur, and you are working with pros. Tell us what you would do to accomplish the hit, and not be discovered.

[Fight_n_back]

147. Thats not really the way it works

it is disingenuous to make the very fact that it looks like an accident as an indictment against it being an accident.

The burdon of proof is on the conspiracy theorist to provide evidence that someone killed the guy not just that someone benefitted from his death.


My wife benefitted from her Grandfather's death but she didn't kill him.

[YNGW]

137. NTSB

As a pilot, I'll wait for the NTSB report to come out. My guess is it's going to end up being spacial disorientation and pilot error. The conditions were right for it.

[JackRiddler]

139. my guess

is the same. The conditions are right for an NTSB report (by the former CIA agent) blaming the pilot, in an eternally unconfirmable fashion.

Since turnabout is fair play:

COME ON, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE OF PILOT ERROR. ARE YOU ACCUSING THE TWO PILOTS? WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? IF YOU CAN'T PROVE IT, SHUT UP.

Isn't that the usual mode of argument used by the accident advocates?

[enki23]

140. since when are utah republicans *not* kooks?

.

[Hotler]

143. Hhhhmmmmmmmm...

so that's who has Tesla's' death ray. The Bush Crime Family.

[JackRiddler]

148. who knows?

These are people for whom things are done. They wake up in the morning, Wellstone's croaked, and they say, well golly gee. Ain't that something. Never question good news.

[teryang]

145. Paul Wellstone prophetic statement

"The Administration has asserted that it may expand the war against terrorism beyond Afghanistan through military operations in several countries. The unrivaled might of the United States can be a powerful factor in world affairs but it must be used sparingly and wisely. Turning too quickly or too frequently to the use of force can damage American interests and alliances abroad, possibly even generate other unwanted consequences." April 16, 2002