Californians - what to do about the bond measures?

[Dookus]

I'm really undecided on props 56, 57 and 58 (leaning towards no, though).

I have conflicting desires here. One is to help my state get out of the mess it's in. The other desire, though, is to show that Schwarzenegger is a lying sleazeball.

He assured us during his campaign he could balance the budget by simply "opening the books and auditing everything." Well, he was wrong - as I well knew. He won largely on the promise to cut the car tax (which was dishonest, because the car tax HAD been cut in good times, then restored to normal in bad times).

So instead of actually raising taxes and dealing with spending, he wants to pass the debt on to the next generation.

But... I know if the measures fail, draconian cuts will occur. But if they pass, we're just handing the problem to those who come later.

I'm torn - let me hear your thoughts.

[wryter2000]

1. I feel the same way

I'm definitely yes on 56.

I hate helping Ahnuld out, the scumbag. But the people on the other side are worse (check your voter's handbook). And if the state doesn't get the money it's going to look like a backward country with no health care, education, or anything else.

The thing that finally convinced me to vote for 57 and 58 was that we're refinancing the mess at a lower rate. But, it eats at me to help the groper out of his mess.

:mad:

[Sub Atomic]

2. I say not only no....

Let Arnie get himself out of this problem.


You're right--he stated he could balance the budget just by looking at the books.

When the bond measures fail and programs across the board start to get cut, it will be time for the Republicans' favorite tool--the recall--to rear its ugly head again.

I say let him turn our state to shit, then kick his ass out. Maybe that will wake the people up to what really happens when you vote Repubs into power in California.

[The Zanti Regent]

38. NO on 57 and 58

Tell your state representative to deliver an ultimatum to Governor Jockstrap that if he fails to submit a budget that increases taxes on his rich pals like Riordan, Millken, and Jay Leno, then he WILL be impeached!

[wryter2000]

3. Cah tax

BTW, I got my cah tax refund the other day. $3.01. Thanks a lot, *ssh*le.

[ronnykmarshall]

17. Cah tax?

I love your accent!

[Mountainman]

4. When will Arnold go after the energy companies like Davis did?

Arnold wants to settle with them. A large part of the mess we are in was because of the manipulation of electricity and natural gas by energy companies who do not have to repay what was stolen from us.

[Dookus]

6. agreed...

there's a few easy billion there for quick pickings, but he won't go for it.

[catzies]

7. Hopefully Skilling's arrest brings it back into the headlines

Enron STOLE hundreds of millions of dollars from us just because they could.

Arnold should not let them off the hook.

[MisterP]

15. NEVER!

“One of Schwarzenegger’s boldest moves, however, will be to enter into quick settlements with about a dozen energy companies accused of manipulating the state’s electricity market during the height of the state’s energy crisis two years ago, aides to Schwarzenegger said Wednesday.
“For three years, California has been en-gaged in a costly legal battle against dozens of energy companies it said ripped off the state by purposely withholding much-needed electricity from consumers, creating an artificial shortage while boosting the companies’ profits.”
“But Schwarzeneggeer aides said the law-suits are deterring energy companies from building power plants in California, which could lead to another energy crisis in 2006, and the legal wrangling alone is costing the state mil-lions of dollars.
“ ‘It’s time to settle and move on,’ a top aide to Schwarzenegger said. ‘We don’t want to in-herit litigation.’ ”
--The Scoop, New Zealand

[Mr. McD]

5. I will vote yes

Further cuts in education and heathcare could cost me and my wife both our jobs.

[sadiesworld]

8. Not being a Californian, I hate to butt in...

however if he is not destroyed in CA, I'm afraid of him going nationwide.

[Dookus]

9. well

there's nowhere for him to go, barring a constitutional amendment, which probably won't be forthcoming any time soon.

[sadiesworld]

11. If you say so.

[salin]

16. is there a similar ban - for seats in the senate

I hate to admit I forget this detail from the old civics class.

[Dookus]

18. No

he could run for the senate.

But I don't think he'd want to, and I doubt he'd be elected, anyway.

[theoceansnerves]

10. my take

56 yes
57 no
58 no

[MisterP]

12. um, ditto

[shanti]

23. YES

you have the votes right, friend! :thumbsup:

[Journeyman]

13. If the bond doesn't pass, we'll have to raise taxes. . .

or cut spending. Cuts in spending are possibly less politically palatable than raising taxes. In all events, I do not want to pass on to my children problems created by my generation.

I wish I could remember the quote, but I believe someone once told Benjamin Franklin that they hoped war would not break out anytime soon. Franklin is said to have replied, "If there is to be war, let it come in my time, so my children might live in peace." Substitute "economic troubles" for "war" and you've got my take on this affair:

"If there are to be economic troubles of our making, let them come in our time, so we don't pass them off on our children."

[Dookus]

14. yes, that's my feeling, too

We were promised that Der Groper could fix this problem. Now he just wants to pass it on to the next generation.

It's a mess no matter what happens, that's for sure.

[Xithras]

21. It's too late for that

The economic disaster that awaits this state following the failures of 57 and 58 will hit the schools the hardest...the "next generation" will get hit as they watch their classroom sizes balloon (as teachers get laid off), their technology funding vanish, and their leaky roofs go unpatched.

[Dookus]

19. kick..

hoping to hear from others.

I really am torn about what to do here.

I think there's a compelling argument for prop 56, but the others leave me really undecided.

[nansocal]

37. I am a native californian.......

and I don't care if the democrats are with the bonds I voted no across the board. I will not bail out gropinater. the car tax should have stayed.

[Xithras]

20. Doing what my union says...voting yes on all of them.

Prop 55 - School Bonds. Locally, we have elementary schools in the poorer neighborhoods on year-round schedules that don't have AIR CONDITIONING! Can you imagine being 6 years old and having to study in an un-air conditioned classroom on a typical valley 102 degree summer day? Some of the Prop 55 money has been earmarked for those schools to fix that very problem. It also covers asbestos removal and remodeling at the school auditorium that my daughter had a recital in last week :eyes:

Prop 56 - Cuts the percentage of required votes from 2/3'ds to 55% in order to pass a state budget. This will effectively strip the last vestiges of Republican power from California and put the state budget in the hands of the Democrats. We already have a 55% majority here, so any Democratic budget would become the defacto state budget...effectively making California a one party state :)

Prop 57 - I hate to support Arnie's debt refinancing, but I have to vote YES on this one. Many Democrats don't seem to understand this: If 57 fails the state will NOT be able to meet its budgetary obligations THIS YEAR. We're not talking about next years budget, we're talking about the state going broke before we even begin deliberating next years budget. The results of this will be swift and painful...my own college is already assembling a "cut list", the list of employees who will be pinkslipped within DAYS of this propositions failure. We're also talking about cancelling classes mid-semester and closing entire buildings until the next fiscal year so we can defer maintenance and save on power costs (laying off maintenance staff and adjunct faculty at the same time).

Here's the thing, the people who will be hurt by Prop 57's failure AREN'T the Republicans, THEY'RE DEMOCRATS! There are very few Republican government employees, teachers, and civil servants who will be affected by these cuts, but many thousands of Democrats will rapidly find themselves unemployed in a state where benefits are being eliminated. By voting against 57, you're simply screwing the poor and those who AGREE with you.

Prop 58 - Prohibits budget deficits. How can anyone here oppose that...especially given the attacks on Bush over his? Not only should our state have had this law long ago, we need a constitutional amendment to implement this on a NATIONAL scale. If you want a new government program, raise taxes or cut something else...don't balance the budget on the backs of our kids. I'm choking on 57 for this very reason, but at least 58 will make sure it never happens again.

[Dookus]

24. thank you

I am already planning Yes on 55 - that's a no-brainer.

I've already said I'm leaning toward Yes on 56, too.

I'm actually philosophically opposed to balanced budget amendments. I think there ARE in fact good reasons to run a deficit, and I'm not fond of forcing the legislature to abide by a feel-good measure that is fiscally unsound. I opposed it on the federal level, and it's hard to see why it needs to be implemented on the state level.

That leaves us with 57, the big one.

I understand its failure will cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. However, I'm not convinced its passage will be much better - using long-term bonds to address short-term problems is incredibly irresponsible, and I'm just loath to give Der Groper a victory on this. I think he should be a mensch and raise taxes. Letting him get away with putting everything on the state credit-card just defers the pain, and hands him a HUGE victory. People need to understand that tough decisions are a necessity during tough times, and deferring the problem to the next generation is silly.

I'm leaning towards letting it fail and forcing Ahnold to actually make the tough decisions. He ran on a promise not to raise taxes. He ran on the promise to balance the budget simply by "auditing everything". I'm not inclined to give him a pass on this.

[goddess40]

35. Property taxes

The best thing CA could do to help them out of their mess is to adjust the property taxes. It is ludicrous for a multimillion dollar home to be paying lower taxes than a $200,000 dollar home. Their should be a state wide reassessment of all property and an equal tax rate should be applied. You will find CA residents pay on the average a very low property tax. Just compare CA with other states.

[Dookus]

36. I've always hated Prop 13

I pay far more in property tax than my next door neighbor, whose house is fully twice the size of mine.

However, since property taxes are local, they wouldn't do much to help the state. However, the state's crisis directly affects municipalities, so it would at least allow us to make up some cut services at the local level.

[shanti]

22. please vote YES on 56!

otherwise the state workers will suffer because of the failings of the legislature. the other ones are a definite NO.

THANK YOU!

[brook]

25. Right now...

I'm leaning yes on 55, 56 and 58. No on 57.

Re:57...Herr Dunderhead said he could fix it mit out raising taxes. He seemed to think all he had to do was look at a few books, transpose a couple of numbers and we'd be in high struedel. He sold himself (or the electorate) on that. Well, we wouldn't have given Davis this out, and we shouldn't give it to Ahnold. But more importantly, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul....it's like flipping credit cards. It still has to be paid and it's gonna be a long term burden that isn't fair to pass on to the next generations. Better to tighten the belt now and get solvent asap.

At the same time, we need to start demanding that Ahnold call Kenny Lay's IOU in! To say nothing of PG & E, Duke, et al.

[meow mix]

26. No, No and No

im not signing on for any of that crap.

i know why gray davis lost. because f^$%#CKING gollum-dems didnt vote for him..
because of thier preciouses... their oh so precious cars.
f*&$cking gollums.

i hope we all sink together.

[RowWellandLive]

27. Examine it closely and do what you think is right

regardless of who proposed it. People are more important then whether Arnold gets credit or not.

I don't live in CA and haven't studied this enough to come to conclusions, but I always think who proposes an idea and gets credit is less important then the people that will be helped or hurt.

If voting against this to hurt Arnold ends up claiming innocent victims it is not worth it.

Search your heart and do what you really believe is right, regardless.

[meow mix]

28. they voted Cars, over Davis. and now they want to pass the buck

to the future generation, its thier problem - not ours.
sick

[Cleita]

29. Yes on 56.

The Repukes hate it. No on the other measures. Let Arnie figure out a way. They are written badly and after the recall fiasco I say fie on badly written laws. They need to go back to a tax solution for those two measures, which means the dark side may have to be taxed after all.

[meow mix]

30. ok im convinced

it just seemed two-edge swordish, so i was scared of the other edge.

[theoceansnerves]

31. groups that oppose prop 56

to give you an idea these are the groups that are funding NO on 56:
(from http://www.yeson56.org/opposition.html)

California Republican Party $750,000
Chevron/Texaco $605,000
Anheuser Busch $410,000
CA Beer & Bev Distributors $410,000
Distilled Spirits Council $400,000
Phillip Morris $385,000
Miller Brewing Company $280,000
State Farm Auto Insurance $230,000
Coors Brewing Company $178,200
Conocophillips $103,000
British Petroleum $100,000
Exxon/Mobil $100,000

it's pretty much a list of the worst of the worst :eyes:

[cally]

32. I'm not voting for the bond measures

I can't justify passing on more debt to future generations. It just enables the borrow and spend mentality. I'm for raising taxes to pay for services. The only way to make that possible is for folks to see the cuts in services we need to balance the budget. I can't stand the campaign rhetoric where they promise everything and cut taxes. It is not possible. I remember one pro-Arnie voter said they voted for him because there were cuts in education under Davis. First, that's not true over his entire term, second let Arnie suffer the consequences of his insane promises.

I'm voting for 56. It's long overdue. The 2/3 majority to pass a budget hinders this state.

[Dookus]

33. Thank you Cally

I tend to agree with you.

BTW... did you ever work in Albany, NY? I knew a Cally back then who moved to CA awhile ago, and you sound a lot like her.

[cally]

34. No

I worked in California.