A Report From the Bible Belt

[burythehatchet]

First a little background. I have lived in many of the world's capitals over the course of my life. Now in my mid 40's I find myself working in a small southern town that is very much a fundamentalist hotbed. I chose to be here, knowing full well that my world view would not be appreciated, let alone understood, here.

A year has passed and I would like to share some of my experiences and observations.

About Children
My son (16 y.o.) lives with me. He goes to one of the better high schools here. While he is not a straight A student, he is very intelligent and observant. He relates to me that he thinks 90% of the students in his school have no desire for higher education. They talk about the factory job that will be waiting for them when (if) they graduate. Discussions about college are rare. There is one child who scored over 1500 on his SAT and has no plans to continue to college. In my company, most of the employees could do far more than they are currently doing if they had a college education. When I discuss their career paths, and even when we talk about their kids, the consistent theme is a basic disregard for the benefits of education.

About the Workplace
Every meeting, every meal, every celebration begins and ends with prayer. Sectarian Prayer. Every address to the employees includes some tribute to George Bush. There is never even a mention of alcohol. While I suspect that managers certainly imbibe, the rank and file most certainly do not. The biggest annual charitable drive is conducted on behalf of Franklin Graham's organization. On that issue I refuse to cooperate.

About God
There is a church on every corner. The single consistent basis on which one discusses social interaction is the church that they attend. There seems to be no other frame of reference.

Other Observations
Very few people seem to have ever traveled north of Virginia.
Vacation getaways are to Pigeon Forge or Dollywood
It is rare to find anyone who would consider NOT voting for George Bush.
It is rare to find anyone who knows anything about the war in Iraq.
Almost everyone trusts Mr. Bush because he is a believer.

The underlying theme seems to be ignorance. More disturbing though is my conclusion that the this culturally deprived population is kept in that state by the church. It disturbs me to think that the power of the religious institutions is so great that an entire population is controlled and subjugated to a life of ignorant bliss for the sake of maintaining political and economic control.

What am I doing here?

[mhr]

1. Good Question - What Are You Doing There - Get Out While You Can!

eom

[ender]

2. welcome to the real world.

>It disturbs me to think that the power of the religious institutions
>is so great that an entire population is controlled and subjugated
>to a life of ignorant bliss for the sake of maintaining political
>and economic control.

no shit.

organized religion is control of the masses. its always been such, and always will be such.

[calimary]

66. Remember that illuminating quote: Religion is the Opiate of the People.

I forget who said that - whether it was Voltaire or Camus or some such. But the quote might as well be embroidered into the lining of my brain. And I'm a Catholic.

What a sad place, and what a tragedy that they put such low value on education. I guess I feel worst for that kid who got 1500 on the SATs. And destined to go nowhere. WHAT A WASTE!!!

Here's another quote worth bringing up:

"What luck for the leaders that men do not think."

Guess who said THAT one?

Adolph Hitler.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

85. Karl Marx I believe

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

[calimary]

91. Shoot, yeah! Thanks, Mayberry!

[Sugarbleus]

93. I was just going to give that quote from Hitler...lol it's

on my bumper sticker.

[nickinSTL]

3. church-inspired ignorance

Boy, remind me to never live in the south.

Ok, that might be a bit harsh.

I thought that the church controlling people and keeping them in ignorance started going out in the Renaissance. Could there still be people that much under control 600 years later?

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. it was just the official hierarchy that started going out then

a belief in the omnipotence of God, and his active goodwill, seems to still permeate the USA - especially the South.

A lot of Americans are also ultimately trusting souls - no bad thing on its own - and so believe people who tell them they bear the message of the loving God.

Compare this with Europe, which has a scepticism and cynicism, built up, I believe, through the suffering of two World Wars. If Europe had been God's chosen people, then he sure as hell hated us in the first half of the 20th century.

[mgc1961]

18. Stick to larger towns or cities.

You'll get a much better reception.

I dragged my neighbor with me to the polls the other day. He considers himself a religious man who always votes Republican, but he told me President Bush's "morals weren't right." I pitched DK to him during our short walk to the polls. One more for Kooch!

Also, the husband of a work associate is from east Tennessee (very Republican). Although he seems to be surrounded by nutcases at work, she told me he's singing a slightly different tune lately. Not to say he's wild about Democrats. She tells me looks favorably on DK. Probably likes Edwards too (that southern thang), but he really dislikes Kerry for some reason. Possibly some lingering anger directed at her for having voted for Gore. She says their relationship hasn't been the same since.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. You have very succinctly summed up why the raving mullahs are the

US's best friend in the Middle East. Nothing is more effective in keeping a barefooted, ignorant and hungry population from directing their complaints toward the author of their barefooted ignorant hunger.

[sangh0]

5. A question

You mentioned your belief that "culturally deprived population is kept in that state by the church"

Are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church, or are you referring to an unorganized collection of churches? (Note: by "unorganized" I am not referring to how organized any of the individual churches are. I'm referring to the lack of a unified organization the controls/influences/guides all of those churches)

[burythehatchet]

24. in this part of the state

its mostly Baptist and Adventist.

[eissa]

28. Adventists

Ugh -- went to school with those. They're not as bad as the Baptists, but pretty damn close. Some of their views were really :scared:

[ret5hd]

6. I don't know what you are doing there, but...

it certainly sounds like the churches are doing a very good job at what they were designed to do. From your tone, I think you would agree with me that the primary purpose of organized religion is to mqaintain political and economic control.

I don't know why you stay, but you really only have two options:
1)stay, educate the willing and ridicule and harrass the ignorant
2)run, rapidly and far, to the nearest sign of civilization

[Gin]

9. If you can't beat em...join em....We should all start our own churches..

there is one where I live named "Carpenter Church"...in a strip mall store front..

Maybe that will be my next adventure...and it's non profit so it's tax free. The Church of Gin ....any joiners here?

[ret5hd]

13. Can I put mine next door...

The Church of Tonic?

[NuckinFutz]

21. wouldn't it be much better

if you joined together?

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

35. Well, I'm with the Church of Tequila, so don't you

GINNERS put your church anywhere near mine. (Sorry, I just can't help myself sometimes.)

[lostnfound]

60. We brandy drinkers are concerned about your morals..

and intend to make tequila illegal.

[EstimatedProphet]

72. Never!

It is only through the church of Tequila that true enlightment can be revealed!
Behold the Worm!
BTW know you said that the rank and file in your town don't drink, but don't count on it. there's an old joke in the south:
Q: How do you tell the Baptists from Catholics in the liquor store?
A: Catholics say hello to each other.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

98. Brandy?

Or should I say COGNAC, to use the FRENCH word. Enjoy it while you inhale the delicate scent from your snifter because you are actually sniffing the SULFURS OF HELL!

[forgethell]

69. Why not just leave the 'ignorant' alone?

Don't you think it is vicious to harrass and ridicule anybody? Southerners are pretty much a 'live & let live' people. So, I thought, were liberals??

[locustfist76]

71. yep

There are a lot of people on this forum who have a "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality.

[EstimatedProphet]

75. I don't think I agree...

Having lived an a deep-south small town for 7 years (and now being back in one) I think there is a tendency in some of these towns for some of the church crowd to spend their time minding everyone else's business. If that is the case of what is going on with the original post...well, it can get ugly sometimes, especially if it breaks out at work.

[forgethell]

97. Well, there are always people like that

liberal as well as conservative. Norhtern as well as Southern. And I have found them in big cities as well.

[Odessey]

96. Just what I was thinking.

Though I have never been to the south, I DO live in a small town in Pennsylvania that is fairly conservative. We all have our own idea of happiness. Though this place he describes is not a place I would choose to live, these people have a right to their "little corner of paradise" as much as he does. I understand burythehatchets frustration but, rather than try to change them, it may be wiser for he and his family to move to a place that more appropriately reflects their values. This country is big enough for everybody to find a niche in which to feel comfortable.

As liberals, we had best learn to 'practice what we preach' and have the same tolerance for such people as we expect - however much we may disagree with them.

[Az_lefty]

7. Typical of small towns...

but trying to blame Christianity is way off base. What your describing I've seen myself, having grown up in small towns. Many people have never traveled, some don't understand what's beyond their own front door and the idea of "going away" to college or anything else is simply beyond their comprehension. What your describing as taking place in the workplace seems a little over the top, perhaps is just where your working or the particular group of people your associated with. If this were a Christian/Church problem it would be pervasive across the country, it isn't.

[Kinkistyle]

16. Fundie Church is SYMPTOM not disease. Disease is Ignorance.

Ignorant people inevitably get indoctrinated into some dogma, like Fundamentalist Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Heaven's Gate etc.. If people were better educated in terms of critical thinking, people would just ignore the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come to their doors.

[Kinkistyle]

17. Double Posted. DELETE THIS.

DELETE THIS DOUBLE POST.

[wellstone_democrat]

56. Not pervasive? a small town issue?

I think not---living as I do in a city of well over 250K that is one of the dozen or so that often is called the "buckle of the bible belt" her description nearly matches my experience. Not every meeting here is started with a prayer but every large meeting is, every public event is and even those who are mainline Protestants privately express discomfort with the overtly evangelical tone. You are regularly asked here in job interviews, public, anywhere if you :have a church home.

I'm in a position where I'm not vulnerable at the moment but the simple "just tell 'em to screw off" or move away from there doesn't cut if if this is where your employment is. As someone who is a professional consultant I'm not at the mercy of most of this but many people are---btw, many here are "traveled" in terms of cruise ship voyages and package tours. College here is "credentialing" for a white collar job (or for girls to teach for a couple of years before marriage).

Further, one interesting dimension is the outspoken belief that Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians are NOT "Christian" That honor is reserved for a few denominations.

[Bertha Venation]

8. Don't know what you're doing there, but . . .

take a trip to Pigeon Forge. Lots of motels there; use one as your base for daily forays into the Great Smokies. Perhaps that's why your neighbors vacation there -- they're going to the mountains.

You're apparently quite near to one of the most beautiful spots on earth. Don't leave there without going to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park at least once. Be sure to visit Cades Cove while you're there.

As for the rest of your post: I wish I could explain. My beloved is from Clinton (near Knoxville), TN. Her niece went to college for three semesters, but found it wasn't for her. Her nephew is a working man. It's definitely a different way of life in the Bible belt --

but if it works for the denizens, I say, more power to them. One doesn't have to aspire to a more sophisticated way of life in order to live a valid life. And one is not necessarily a mindless automaton just because one's steeped in that "churchy lifestyle." Mrs. V. grew up in it and maintained her intellectual and spiritual independence.

[burythehatchet]

26. Mrs. V - I wish that others had followed your independent example

you're the exception.

[Bertha Venation]

29. Mrs. V. is actually my mate -- and I don't really think she's an exception

Her example may not be the rule, exactly, but I don't think it's an anomaly.

I'm struggling mightily today with despair over the evil hatred & the backlash we gay folk are experiencing, and that will continue, no doubt, over the next several months. The hatred and arrogance and opposition to what is right (Jesus Christ!! marriage is a basic human right!!) is all I can see -- although I know that's not all there is.

Perhaps what you've described is similarly all you can see at the moment. :shrug:

[mac2]

47. My favorite in that area is...

the Blue Ridge Parkway, TN, VA,GA drive. The view is breath taking. I also like Roan Mt., TN view. The Smoky National park and Pigon Forge is too crowded.

Another mt. view is the Jefferson National Park. The drive threw that area has layers and layers of blue mountains...unending beautiful.

[burythehatchet]

48. Rafting on the Ocoee on a hot summer day

is quite nice as well.

[locustfist76]

62. Cades Cove

You are so right. Cades Cove is a must see. My family actucally lived in Cades Cove until the gov't took their land to form the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

Depending on where you go, there are some who want a theocratic America, but ultimately most want the gov't to stay out of their lives. They would prefer community standards dictate how things are run at a local level.

Also, college degrees aren't worth much in small towns. Those who earn degress tend to get jobs in the larger cities...that's just the way it is.

You are 100% correct when you say "One doesn't have to aspire to a more sophisticated way of life in order to live a valid life." Heck most small towners are content with what they have and don't quite understand how the city folk deal with all the madness.

[burythehatchet]

63. You might be right

and that may be where I'm missing the boat on this one. Where it does impact all of us though is in the political arena. Like when they believe that Bush is such a good guy and keep voting for him

[locustfist76]

65. You would be surprised

Like I mentioned on another post on this thread, you'd be surprised by the number of southerns who are democratic at their core, but feel the national Democratic Party no long represents them. Where I grew up, you can only win a local election if you are a Democrat. However, they typically vote for a republican for president.

[progressiverealist]

10. It's the churches... without the churches we'd be so much better off.

The Christian churches in amurrika, for the most part, have become mouthpieces of the Republican party. There are, of course, exceptions, but not many.

[truthspeaker]

23. only about half the Christian churches

The loudest, wealthiest half, of course, but there are still non-wingnut churches who encourage their parishioners to think for themselves.

[progressiverealist]

30. I don't know... Bush has been mostly successful in co-opting Christianity

I know there are churches that still encourage thinking (like the one I just left) but the members still march more or less in lock step to George Bush's drum.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. There are plenty of churches where the mention of

GW Bush is met with an expasperated sigh. There may not be many in the South, but my Episcopal church (here in MInnesota) is multiracial, sponsors refugees, feeds the hungry, sends work teams to Habitat for Humanity, has an out lesbian on the clergy staff, and sponsors the formation of "peace and reconciliation" groups.

[Az]

12. Humans are social creatures

We develop much of how we understand the world around us based on what our social environment dictates. Churches amount to the modern village. It is a connection that ties people together in our physically isolating modern environment. As the Churches are the result of centuries of evolution of their own particular memeplexes they have become very very effective at creating a structure that is all encompassing for its members.

Unfortunately this means that you as a transplant into this community may find it very difficult to impossible to integrate into the community. Your filters and systems are simply based on completely different experiences. Fortunately our society is diversified enough that even in remote backwaters you may still be able to find individuals with enough in common for you to develop your own communities within the larger system in time.

[LiberalFighter]

70. That is what I felt when I moved

I moved to a larger city and transferred membership. But I felt that I didn't belong. The church was small and appeared to consist of long-term integrated families. Meaning it consisted of a few families that were pretty much related to each other. They hyped the "Hoosier Hospitality" bit. But I didn't feel that hospitality from them. I ceased attending a few years ago and don't miss it one bit.

Another thing I find a farce is one of their nicknames is "City of Churches." It isn't the "City of Churches" that is the hypocrisy but the message behind it. It being that they have family values that are upright.

[Bandit]

14. While it isn't true that all Republicans are ignorant it is true that most

ignorant people are Republican. It is very hard to rationalize with a very ignorant person. This is why the Republicans want to destroy Public Education. Their kids will get the "special private education" and then be able to take over as leaders of America and it is easy for the great propaganda machine to guide the ignorant. The worst thing in the world for a Republican is for a Black person or a poor white trash to be seen as a "Superior" This is one of the main reasons they Had To destroy the Clintons. It could not be that someone from a poor southern background could achieve the presidency. It is too inspiring for the masses. Only their children should have that position.

[salin]

15. I would venture to guess that part of what you are seeing is a relatively

new phenomenon (in the larger scheme of things)... the intentional politicization of the pulpit.

I do not doubt that the role of churches manifesting in terms of prayers in work meetings and at meals probably has long been a cultural part of the fabric of the community - as churches do often play a role in social organization in small communities. However the merging of the political into the religious message, in this country, and at the level that it is done today - is relatively new and very intentional. Certainly there have long been individual pastors who have done this, but the organizing done by the Christian Coalition starting back in the eighties has been very intentional - selecting individuals within a congregation who are seen as having influence both on the congregation and on the pastor to get involved and to slowly start pushing the congregation and pastor towards politics from the pulpit (begins with the benign leaving of voter guides... then to the allowing of individuals in the church to meet for political purposes as a subset of the church... and then takes on a more active role). As the right began to see the potential power, in terms of an easy way of getting massive numbers of voters to the polls, the effort became even more concerted - where members of clergy exerted influence on others... and more recently were some powerful groups (think: southern baptist convention) started almost purging members who didn't toe the line... in ways that blurred some of the political into the theological.

My point is that the dangerous element - and what is new - is the merging of the two points together.

What is also tragic is that by having done so, there is a disconnect between the economic realities of the policies of this adminstration, and the communities long-term way of life and thus the messages that translates through families and the schools to students... that these high paying factory jobs will be here when you finish (or don't school) and thus there is no value in higher education and expanding ones' career options. There is active misleading going on that is tragic... and the power of the pulpit now used to push politics makes it even harder for individuals to break through the messages given (to those they believe are representing God's word) from the pulpit and contrast it to the 'secular' realities of the end results of the policies of the politics being pushed.

Just my two cents.

[Lindacooks]

19. I really hate that

the South is called the 'Bible Belt'. The 'Bigot Belt' is far more appropriate.

[locustfist76]

64. Don't be so sure of yourself

I grew up in the south and bigots do exisit there. I now live in the north and bigots populate this area as well. Why must you stereotype the south like that? Maybe your elitest attitude keeps them from wanting to be open-mined like you. Most people in the South just want to be left alone to live their own lives...just like everywhere else. You would be very suprised to know that most southern folk are democratic at their core. Most vote democratic at local levels, but they no longer feel the national Democratic represents them. Re-engaging the "Bigot South" would do wonders to get a Democrat back in office.

[JNelson6563]

78. but they vote in national elections

so quit with the "they do no harm in their ignorance" routine.

Julie

[locustfist76]

80. and

and they would vote democratic in national elections is they didn't feel abandoned.

[Fatima]

83. I am a transplanted Yankee living in the South

and I resent that kind of stereotyping. I enjoy living here and wouldn't go back North except to visit relatives.

I grew up in NYC and there was plenty of bigotry there.

It's everywhere.

Not a particular feature of the South or Southerners.

BTW, folks, there are plenty of Dems, Greens, and Libertarians down here.

[KharmaTrain]

20. Marvellous Observations...And Rush Blames Us?

Yeah, I know we finally have confirmed this dude's on drugs, but he is the leading ape (others like Weiner & Hannity) that the Democrats are guilty of keeping the blacks and latinos "on the plantation".

Besides the obvious racism and the polarizing effect this statement has...along with it being a buzzword for all the rednecks and racists out there, the GOOP, as noted above, preys (literally) on the provincial southern mindset.

These are people whose leaders have disdain for education since that threaten the wide-ranging and draconian power they hold through invoking religion. I've always felt that religion (especially "fundamentalist" or "radical" factions) flourishes in areas with the greatest poverty and illiteracy...it's used to keep the sheeple in fear and segregate them from the rest of the world.

Since an invisible cloud being is used here, God is used as the enforcer...the ultimate big brother...not only listening to your words, but reading your thoughts everywhere you go. This is the true definition of god-fearing...and one of the oldest and most lethal forms of mind control.

Personally, I'm in favor of roping off one or two western states (Idaho and Montana lead the list)...put a fence around it and tell all the fundies this is their promised land. Let the set up a theocracy, curse any mention of Darwin and let them truly live in a "Christian nation"...then leave the rest of us alone. Alas to dream.

[Frances]

22. A thoughtful post

I grew up in a town like the one you describe. Fortunately for me, our Methodist Church had some outstanding ministers. We got them because they were just starting their careers. One minister said that the story of Adam and Eve was a fable that was an attempt to explain the beginning of human society. After I got a job in Mobile, I related this sermon to my fundamentalist co-workers and was ostracized!

I think they agreed with the man who said, "If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me."

I decided to just go along and not challenge anyone's beliefs. It seemed rather hopeless.

Good luck to you, no matter where you decide to live.

[diamond14]

25. U of Georgia, Atlanta is a beautiful learning environment....

As a chemist, I was at the South-East Regional Meeting of the American Chemical Society, Atlanta Georgia, in October 2003...


hundreds of students from local colleges came and presented POSTERS of their work....degreed Chemists made technical briefings on their work in many hotel conference rooms for four days...over 100 local high school chemistry teachers attended sessions to update their skills...local women, men, people of all races and colors were there...scholarships and grants were handed out to the students at a variety of social events, breakfasts lunches and dinners....

everyone sees the world through their own little periscope....you have yours and I have mine...

IMO, there are a LOT of really intelligent people in the South who VALUE education....Black, White, Yellow and Red....and some students told me that they were the first in their family to go to college...the SOUTH is changing...it's not all what you perceive....what I see is a lot of YOUNG and brilliant Chemists of all races leading the way for the future.....

[burythehatchet]

27. I think what happens is that

a place like Atlanta, where I lived for 15 years, draws the best and brightest from the surrounding areas. So your expeerience is very accurate. What happens though is that when those shining stars leave their burgs and go to Altanta, it leaves their home town communities devoid of their brilliance.

[diamond14]

32. Chemists work EVERYWHERE...not just in big cities...

most of the Chemists that I met at the Atlanta conference were NOT from Atlanta...they were living and working OUTSIDE Atlanta...


every water and wastewater treatment plant has Chemists in laboratories....really small plants group up and use a single lab, but the Chemists are still there....

Chemists do soil analyses and help farmers, often along with the Agricultural extension services...

Chemists are involved in every single environmental clean-up site...

Chemists teach school....

Chemists conduct scientific studies on all public lands, including trees, bugs, air, water, soils, animals....

Chemists are involved in every Federal highway project and most state highway contruction, for soils, waste dumps encountered, archeological sites, and wetlands...

Chemists assure proper use of agricultural chemicals, like pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and rodenticides....which today require a lot of technical expertise...

Chemists work in every industry...both for manufacturing and to assure proper handling and disposal of industrial waste....


The Chemist who made the GREATEST impact on the South, actually SAVED all the farmers/people of the south....a GREAT nobel price-winning SOUTHERN Chemist was George Washington Calver, the peanut Chemist....he spent a lot of his life right out there on farms....his parents were slaves....but he was free...

using chemical experiments, Carver figured out the reason why tobacco alone was destroying all the Southern soil...and that the crop to rotate and replenish the soils was PEANUTS...Carver was a Black man, and many called him crazy, that there was NO use for peanuts...so Carver worked most of his life to create NEW uses for peanuts....at least 400 new uses for the peanut..it is now a major crop in the South and rotates with tobacco...and the soils were SAVED and are healthy today....

[NuckinFutz]

34. That's it, in a nutshell

I went to school in a small town in Arkansas. Those of us who moved on to bigger things since then seem to be the more progressive of the lot.

I noticed this at my 15 year reunion. I hadn't seen any of these people since I left for college. One of my former classmates, who went to college in AR and had gone back to live in our little town, had a very difficult time attempting to explain to me that another friend of mine had come out as lesbian and had recently had a formal ceremony to unite with her partner. I wound up finishing the sentence for her because she was so flustered, and she was very relieved that I did. Not that she was opinionated or negative about our mutual friend, but it was obvious the subject made her very uncomfortable. She also seemed surprised that I took it in stride and went on asking about other classmates.

[stopthegop]

31. what are you doing there?

based on this post, you're being just as 'provincial' and closed minded as the people you live among...and throwing in arrongance and condescension for good measure...

[burythehatchet]

36. I'm sorry that you interpreted my comments as you did.

My main point is that there is a genuine lack of curiosity among the people here. Let me point out that they are no more or less intelligent than anyone else. But rather than encourage exploration, parents and clergy seem to discourage any new way of thinking that may diverge from that which has been ordained.

Now if my judgment that curiosity and learning are a better way of life formulates a provincial, arrogant, and condascending attitude, then I'm afraid I am guilty.

[diamond14]

38. LOL....shoot the messenger ? was that an apology ?

that's almost as good as the crap that flings out of Washington DC, where I live....

my favorite quote...

"...there is a genuine lack of curiosity among the people here..." says one of the people here.....

[burythehatchet]

39. BTW you wouldn't happen to be a CHEMIST would you?

[diamond14]

50. there are plenty of INCURIOUS people around, one is in the WH

although bush* was educated at TWO top east coast colleges, he never traveled international except for two short trips, one with his dad...and only when he stole the pResidency did he travel internationally...remember, during the 2000 campaign, bush* refered to the 'country of Africa'...


bush* is a perfect example of what you describe in your locality....complete with the religious-insanity added...AND the hypocrisy...


yes, I am a Chemist, and hold TWO college degrees in Chemistry, one from the U of Michigan and one from the U of Colorado...I spent my first 18 years in a six block area of a insulated Catholic community in Detroit, near McNichols and Schaeffer, which is TWO miles south of 8 mile road...


I believe that those of us who are educated, intelligent and well-traveled have a BIG obligation to contribute back to our neighborhoods, in order to improve things...and it would behove you to think about your complaints here, and then, get up and start improving your community....there are thousands of ways to contribute...and all it takes is a 'little bit' of effort from each and every one of us

"The agenda, as always, begins with trying to find out what is happening in the World, and then doing something about it, as we can, better than anyone else. Few share our privilege, power and freedom - hence responsibility. That should be another truism." Noam Chomsky

[PassingFair]

89. St. Mary's, perhaps?

n/t

[diamond14]

90. Precious Blood grade school....it's changed now...might be

a high school...for a while it was a home for 'wayward' girls....it was shut down for a long time after a school shooting that killed a teacher....there's still a BIG ornate classic Church there on Grove St.

it's right next to King School (the Public School in the neighborhood)...where the kids who got kicked out of Precious Blood went....then I took a city bus to high school at Our Lady of Mercy High when it was on Southfield and Outer Drive...


my point was that, you can be just as insulated in a big city as in a little town...and be just as 'incurious' and closed to the world...I know many people in big cities, even here in Washington DC, who never venture past their little daily routine of going to school or work and going home to watch TV...and go shopping,,,and they live their whole life within just a few miles, and some will make demeaning remarks about others just like this thread...

so it seems very cruel and mean to me...for a whole thread about 'Southern' ignorance...more likely, the person who started this trash is the ignorant one....people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks....


whew...BTW...did you go to St. Mary's???

[eissa]

40. I can only imagine how bad it is there

if it is pretty scary where I live in a conservative part of CA. I hear you on the lack of curiosity. It's amazing to me how this culture of "do not question" permeates among the locals here. There are no prayers at work (thank God I work for the state), but you would be surprised how many wish there were. In an area with many immigrants, not far from the SF bay area, and home to a state university, the fact that some of this thinking, similar to what you describe in your post, even exists here is scary.

[burythehatchet]

42. I get the feeling that if these folks

who are just as capable as anyone else, would just travel a little bit, it might change their world view

[RebelOne]

33. Church on every corner?

You must be living in Georgia. I live north of Atlanta in a large suburban area and there are churches on every corner here.

[burythehatchet]

37. East TN

[mac2]

41. Yes...we noticed that in E. TN but also in the MW

Many MW people don't go to college. Cars and sports are more important. Show of wealth is everything. We're near large education institutions too.

I'm from the NE where almost everyone had some advanced education or wanted it. We didn't brag about it. When I met college educated people, they thought you couldn't be educated because you weren't snotty enough. Strange adjustment in these Bible Belts.

Bush is a believer? All our Presidents were...maybe not church goers but believers. Many had better ethics and values too. Maybe what they mean is Bush is the only outward Bible "thumper". Do they need to be told..only Christians rule the world over and over? Ignorant aren't they?

I know what you mean. It's hard for other parts of the country to understand. They think they are more advanced. Well, they were but regressed with Gingrich revolution.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

43. "Garbage in, garbage out"

is what my fundamentalist BIL says, meaning if they listen to anything "secular" they will become polluted by it. He thinks his key to material success and happiness is following this supposed "Christian" path. They believe they must listen only to the "Word" which comes directly from the church. I agree with Salin, it's become politicized because my BIL and the other fundamentalists in the family never really talk about Jesus. It's AlWAYS about politics.

[Az]

44. Hi

I am polluting you. Grrr Grrr

[burythehatchet]

45. That reminds me of a story

When I used to visit here years ago (my employer is a former client), I started dating someone who had practically never been out of the state. She loved to talk about other countries and cultures, but her mother did not want her to date me or to leave. She and I had to break up because she could not muster the courage to defy her mother, although I did convince her to get her bachelors degree. Well as it turns out, years later she moved away (to Atlanta) got married. She has a very nice job and when I caught up with her recently she said she would only go back home to visit her mom. I count that as a success story even though I would have loved to marry her. Just wasn't meant to be I suppose.

:)

[mac2]

46. Seems to me more about Bush than religion...

They want power these losers.

[kayell]

49. Hello from a little up the road

I see that you must at least be somewhat close to Atlanta from your profile. While the small town you are in may be extremely homogeneous, if you can take advantage of being near Atlanta, you should be able to find a range of attitudes political and religious. It sure would help your mental well being if you could seek out some of the more liberal folks in your area to get to know. Believe it or not, there really are quite a few in the south!

If you need to stay in the area close to your workplace, perhaps their are neighborhoods or nearby towns that would be easier to live in? While I live in an extremely conservative town, my neighborhood is very comfortable for me, with an assortment of gays and straight, various races and political persuasions. While not everyone is liberal on my street, they are all acceptably tolerant of difference.

Look around for the places and events likely to attract liberals in your area. Meet-ups in Atlanta, coffee houses, if you are into religion there maybe Unitarians or Quakers (there are near me), universities, art classes, galleries, Sierra Club meetings....

It can be really tough when your workplace has an atmosphere so completely opposed to what you would be comfortable with. Perhaps you could try to lessen the workplaces importance in your life. Do you have a job that you can leave behind at the end of the day?

As Bertha Venation mentioned, the Smokies are really amazing, and not far from you. There is plenty of tackiness there, but more of natures wonders than of commercialism even now. One of the things I love about living in the South is the chance to enjoy being outside virtually year round. Maybe it would help to list some of the things you like about the south, and then work to make those more prominent than the negatives in your life.

The best thing I can suggest about the constant prayers before every event is to pretend during them that you are an anthropologist observing a very interesting cultural phenomenon, kind of like the blessings of the fleet in many new england towns.

[burythehatchet]

53. Thanks Kayell

WHile I live here during the week, I do have a home in Atlanta as well (Emory area). So the weekends are a nice break from my anthropological activities. (Very funny :))

[Iris]

51. No mention of college at your son's school? You could also be in the rust

belt.

I went to high school in the deep south and EVERY DAY our teachers dicussed what would be expected of us in college.

[mainer]

52. Even the FOOD section of the newspaper is about religion!

I was visiting a small southern town on business. Thought I'd read the local weekend newspaper. I turned to the food section, expecting recipes and restaurant reviews. The headline was:

"What Would Jesus Eat?" !!!

[kayell]

55. What Would Jesus Eat! ROFL

Actually, that is only truly a southern thing if they claim the answer is pulled pork barbecue.

[DeepModem Mom]

54. Do you ever think about country music...

even being part of the mindset you describe? I spend some time in a rural area, and like to listen to the country music on the radio, but the words all seem to glorify people being satisfied with their lot -- uneducated good ole boys and girls, with simple tastes and simple minds. It seems to me in times past people had ambitions, especially that their children would rise above what they had achieved, educationally and financially. I think it's in the interest of those in power now to keep people satisfied with their lot, so they can have more and more for themselves and their cronies.

By the way, if there's any possible way, I agree with others -- get yourself and your family out of there. Life's too short.

[burythehatchet]

57. That's an interesting observation, and quite valid

as far as leaving, I've lived in many countries and some great cities. I guess at some point I decided that my journey was more inward than outward (if that makes sense). So it didn't really matter where I hung my hat. As far as my son, he's here because he wants to be with his dad. He will be off to college in a year.

[DeepModem Mom]

59. Good enough --

You're very fortunate to have travelled and experienced the world.

[apsuman]

58. Let me guess Maryville

Or possibly Harriman, TN.

I was going to say Knoxville (still mostly fits) but I thought that was too big a place.

BTW, I thought that even before I read your reply that it is East Tennessee.

[burythehatchet]

61. Well since I don't imagine that anyone at work

is an evil DUer, the answer is Cleveland

[mac2]

73. Johnson City, TN?

It sounds like JC. We lived it for over six years.

[mlawson]

74. It does. He couldn't be in Atlanta!!

Although that is what his profile says.

Yeah, I was in JC for far too many years, and I witnessed many such scenes at work. But I was always able to absolutely ignore their weird rituals with complete impunity.

Now I live in Asheville, 55 miles away, and it's like being in a different country. France, for example.

[locustfist76]

77. Really?

Is Asheville really that different from Johnson City? I'm very familiar with Asheville and understand it pretty well. I thought Johnson City was very similar. They both have very conservative and liberal sectors. Does Darcel Grimes still work for WLOS? What wig is she wearing tonight?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. If it's any consolation

the kind of "ignorant and proud of it" atttitude that you find in your town is also found in parts of rural Minnesota (one of my cousins married into a family like that) and even in irreligious rural Oregon.

The attitude is, "This is the greatest town in the world. Why go anywhere else?" Kids are scolded for "reading too much" and "putting on airs."

[southerngirlwriter]

76. I live in the buckle of the Bible belt...and I think you're missing

something.....

the possibility that they agree with you but are too terrified to say so.

I am considered a radical flaming liberal in my circles (I'm not; I'm liberal, but far from a left-wing extremist). Occasionally people "fess up" to me. One lady in her 70's, at my church, whispered to me at the last potluck. "Don't you dare tell anyone, but I voted for Gore and I'm not voting for that Bush turkey this time, either."

Enough people think that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are Republicans that those who know they're full of shit are afraid to speak up.

It does NOT mean they ALL vote that way. GOP wins these states by a few points, not 95 to 5.

But if you really hate the South, hell, move away! It's a free country (for now, sigh). I'm not prejudiced against Yankees -- I like y'all just fine. You're welcome to stay or go. :-)

[mac2]

79. The vocal RWers aren't all the citizens...

The Blue states may desert Bush this time. If your are a church person why vote for someone who kills, lies, and enjoys it?

They probably don't believe the Constitution and Bill of Right should be negated either.

Many in the Buckle of the Bible Belt have children in the service. They can't be happy about the treatment of them.

Many like yourself are silenced but I know you are out there...liberals. I was when I lived there...Yankee and all (I do have Southern ancestors).

President Gore would have won his own state if it weren't for Lieberman and the fraud. They said, the voting fraud in Tennessee was worse than Florida.

[burythehatchet]

88. You could be right

sometimes my political proclivites slip out - I get the impression that some folks, especially the younger people, don't mind knowing more - but then that could be because I'm their boss !!

:shrug:

[BootinUp]

81. "Every address to the employees includes some tribute to George Bush."

Yikes! Tell us where you are at least a proximity. I am in Cartersville GA, pretty small still but only 30 mi north of Atlanta. We're a little more diverse probably.

The whole church-politics thing is scary to me. Even when I was a young catholic lad I felt uncomfortable about church political efforts. It must be the excellent catholic schooling where they taught me about our country and our constitution etc.

[JasonDeter]

82. Your post doesn't say much for the Democratic party now does it?

I mean to be horsewhipped by a bunch of uneducated religious republicans. Wow, shame, shame, shame. And with that left wing nutcase Nader comming back into the race it looks very much like those uneducated religious republicans are going to another stomp on the Democratic party again. Wow, shame, shame, shame on that beacon of educated subjugated reality of the dominated.

[bpilgrim]

92. yeah, but the reTHUGs take the LION's SHARE of the blame

if your keeping score ;->

:hi:

peace

[JasonDeter]

94. I disagree with that

For the Democrats to let the republicans hijack Christianity is one of the issues that really piss me off about the Democratic leadership. The republicans have been able to hijack Christianity because of one issue: abortion. Take away abortion and Christianity has more in common with the Democratic party than the republican party. I don't know why Democrats let the republicans get away with it either. The republicans control the Congress, Senate, Judiciary and for now the pResidency. Since 73 abortion has been a matter of law, if it was such a strong area with the republicans and not an issue to beat Democrats over the head with they'd change the law. They have the abilility to do it but don't even try unless its an election year. Historically Democrats have been the strong Christian party, in values and policy. For some reason (shame) they have stopped articulating it.

[burythehatchet]

101. Jason I have a theory on that

Question: What is one of the ties that bind fundies to Republicans?

Answer: $$$$$$$$$$

The one thing that always gives away fundamentalists as charlatans is their greed and single minded quest for wealth. As we all know, the Republicans share a similar insatiable desire. SO maybe its not because of what Democrats haven't done. Rather, it may be because of what Democrats are NOT.

[LanternWaste]

84. My two pesos....

Thats odd. I{ve been living in Mexico for the past two weeks (and it looks like I may have a job here.... yay!). What you said perfectly describes this small town Ive been staying in and to a lesser extent, the larger town Ive been working in. Subtract the vocalizations regarding Bush and you have this town down to a tee and Im actually hopingto live here. Change Baptists to Catholic and youre spot on.

Very family oriented.
Very Church oriented. Churches on every corner.
Not educated to the extent I as an American am and they dont really care too much about it.
Not very curious about politics or the world around them.

Maybe this may not sound too appealing to many of you, but it is precisely this sense of close-knit community that is becomming one of the major selling points to me in accepting the job.

These are good people. These are the people that bear the burden of the world on their shoulders. I cannot in good conscious label this as an Absolute Bad.


On Edit Using a Mexican keyboard and still learning to find certain punction keys... like the apostrophe for example...lol

[burythehatchet]

87. Thanks for sharing that very interesting perspective

My perception of South/Latin America has been defined by the recent WTO protests. I kinda thought that the people in these regions (working class) were more tapped into the geo-political issues.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

100. I don't know what the modern day Catholic church is like

because I stopped going when I left home, but my experience of the church growing up in the 60s and 70s differs from that in one way. It was a rural area, but the Catholics were different from the rural Protestants exactly because of a respect for education.

My parents were both raised poor, but they got good educations because of encouragement from their churches. My mother got sixteen years of Catholic schooling and college and my dad went to college on the GI bill and was encouraged to study by his priests while he went to public high school.

Looking back, I came to realize that being raised Catholic is the main reason I learned to appreciate education and ended up a liberal. But maybe it's different now. Or maybe it has to do with different ethnicities, I don't know. The Irish tradition seemed to have a real respect for literacy and education at that time.

[burythehatchet]

102. I was raised around the Hindu tradition, but I always felt an attraction

towards Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy. I found the Greek Orthodox traditions to be remarkably similar to some Hindu traditions. I wonder why.

[Silver Bullet]

86. Funny...

"The underlying theme seems to be ignorance. More disturbing though is my conclusion that the this culturally deprived population is kept in that state by the church. It disturbs me to think that the power of the religious institutions is so great that an entire population is controlled and subjugated to a life of ignorant bliss for the sake of maintaining political and economic control."

That sounds like my home province during the days of Catholic Church-backed fallangist dictator Maurice Duplessis.

Quebecker's were kept ignorant by the church until they eventually had enough.

Maybe the generation following mine will allow for a similiar awakening in the Southern US. (Minus the separatism, I would hope.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

95. Mandatory Cultural Re-Education of the Ignorant!

The problem with the South is their disinterest in a liberal arts education, their antipathy towards the cutural institutions we cherish, and their sense of ambivalency towards holding a white collar job.

It's almost as if they are as ignorant and culturally backwards as the indigenous populations around the world that have yet to become assimilated to real culture. I suggest mandatory re-education of these ignorant savages. The first thing we must do is stamp out their religious and social institutions of course.

[Jim__]

99. They talk about the factory job that will be waiting for them ...

Maybe when that factory moves overseas they'll begin to get the picture.