Holocaust exaggerated: Gibson dad

[seemslikeadream]

In his interview on WSNR radio's Speak Your Piece, to be broadcast on Monday, Hutton Gibson, argued that many European Jews counted as death camp victims of the Nazi regime had in fact fled to countries like Australia and the United States.

"It's all - maybe not all fiction - but most of it is," he said, adding that the gas chambers and crematoria at camps like Auschwitz would not have been capable of exterminating so many people.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8727351%255E1702,00.html

[xchrom]

1. well -- there it is

and just how far did the apple fall from the tree?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ripley]

93. You know I always wondered why so many of his movies

were the same story. Mad Max, The Patriot, Pay Back and others I am forgetting. It is always him losing his wife to some horrible murder or such and then him seeking revenge the whole movie. I know there are other lines of narrative too, but that seems to be the underlying theme.

[Must_B_Free]

102. Yes I never put it to gether until now

And the Lethal Weapon series - a mad who only cares about justice and doesn't care if he gives up his life.

It makes sense in the rest of the context of his life and beliefs.

[Catherine Vincent]

118. Braveheart.

His young wife was murdered in that movie too and after that it made him strong enough to start a revolution to free Scotland against the French. Although he was cut up into pieces on the end. But nevertheless he was a hero to his fellow countrymen.

[knight_of_the_star]

122. English, not French

Scotland never went to war with France (that I know of). Just a history buff showing his true colours.

[mobuto]

124. Actually,

one could well argue that Scotlands wars against Norman England were really against the French, since the "English" lords were from France, spoke French and did not identify themselves as English.

More to the point, one of the main reasons that the Scotish revolted (normally, only Glaswegians are revolting :-) ) against the English in the specific rebellion reenacted in Braveheart, was because the English king, Edward I had been trying to get Scottish troops to fight against France. And the Scotch didn't want to.

[regnaD kciN]

138. You're forgetting the most obvious one...

It is always him losing his wife to some horrible murder or such and then him seeking revenge the whole movie.

...Bray-fart.

;-)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Crackheads

I wish "The Patriot" never happened too, but I at least acknowledge it did. :crazy:

[Bandit]

3. And we know man never ever walked on the moon either.

:shrug: History tells a different story than these right-wingers do.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

4. We've heard this before. Was he there?

If not, his opinion is spurious conjecture.
Twat.

[mojo2004]

5. Would you like to be accountable for.....

your parents or other relatives views? This has to be about the dumbest thing he could possibly say. I imagine someone baited him into it, but an absolutely ignorant comment.

[Brian Sweat]

58. It is clear that Mel Gibson shares a lot of his fathers

less than conventional views. I don't know that he believes this little bit of drivel, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[everythingsxen]

6. All I can say is..

Oy Vey!

Well I am sure everyone will keep this in perspective and that just because his father has these views does not mean that Gibson is an anti-Semite, nor is the Passion intended to be anti-Semitic either..

Oh.. too late...

[MikeGalos]

127. Oh the irony

I'm being told what is and isn't anti-Semitic by a poster who uses a picture of Adolf Eichmann as his avatar?

[Deaner1971]

7. Scary

I remember reading an article on these "Holocaust Deniers" and I thought they all lived in cabins with arsenals and multiple wives. I seriously have to wonder if Gibson believes the same things. I don't want to paint the son with the same brush as the father (until it is justified. See: Bush 1 and 2) but, I have to wonder if he was taught these things and still believes them.

I really want to see Gibson's new movie, if only to form my own opinion. However, if it the crap that it is being portrayed as being, I don't want my $10 going toward it. Of course Pat Robertson was selling advanced tickets to it while interviewing Sean Insanity Hannity on CBN (or whatever his channel is called) last night so, if two people I never agree with are hawking it, I think I can form an opinion.

[Rich Hunt]

52. scarier than that

I remember reading an article on these "Holocaust Deniers" and I thought they all lived in cabins with arsenals and multiple wives.

They don't. In fact, one of them is a professor at Northwestern University. (He's an engineering professor)

[CityZen-X]

60. The Exodus Was Exaggerated

Does it really matter if the Holocaust was exaggerated by a few hundred thousand or not? We all know that it occurred and regardless of the stats. it was and still is the crime of all time.
But what I do know is that geologists are saying that the Exodus was exaggerated. That it may have had a hundred or so members of the tribe fleeing Egypt, instead of the account from the Bible.

[Muddleoftheroad]

98. Geologists?

Perhaps you mean ARCHEOLOGISTS? Either way, their opinion is suspect and likely to be influenced by their own beliefs.

[CityZen-X]

104. The Gist Of It All

I stand corrected, but thanks for understanding what I meant to say. This site was my source, unfortunately the paticular item is no longer available. The story originally was printed in the magazine "Ha'aretz" 10/29/1999.

http://biblicalarchaeology.org

[Trajan]

107. Ze'ev Herzog, Israel Finklestein and the so called "Minimalists" ...

Ok ... here is your chance: ...

WHERE are the artifacts and remains of the movement of MILLIONS of human beings who travelled a very short distance between Egypt and Canaan, over a VERY long period of time, requiring millions of pounds of food every day, hundreds of thousands of campfires to stay warm and cook ...

The University of Tel Aviv has a well respected archaeological department which deserves at least SOME evidence of their error ...

Im sure you will be glad to provide that evidence ...

[Muddleoftheroad]

117. Millions?

Huh?

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

8. my stars

what a complete maroon
b

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. Is it true that the crematoria on display at Auschwitz are a

reconstruction? I keep hearing that over and over again.

[seemslikeadream]

15. Nazi Crematoria

The Apogee Of Holocaust Engineering

Most of the major Nazi concentration camps standing today still have their crematoria on public display

http://www.rudyfoto.com/hol/crematoria.html

[supernova]

27. No not reconstructions

Do yourself a favor and visit concentration camp. They're open for the learning benefit of all. I don't care which one: Buchenwald, Auchwitz.

The full force of the tragedy doesn't hit you until you visit one. Barring that, The Holocaust Museum in Washing DC I also hear is a tremendous learning experience as well. I don't know, haven't visited it yet.

[mobuto]

51. Actually, they are reconstructions

The SS destroyed the crematoria at Auschwitz in January, 1945. I recomend visitng Auscwitz anyway. It is extremely powerful.

[mobuto]

50. Yes - that is correct, why do you ask?

The crematoria at Auschwitz were indeed destroyed by the SS in January, 1945, as the Soviets were nearing. Photographs, original plans, invoices, etc. survive. In fact aerial photographs taken by allied bombers show the progress of the dismantling of the crematoria. The ovens on display now were rebuilt from the parts the Nazis left.

An oven from Mauthausen survives.

The evidence that crematoria existed and disposed of millions is overwhelming and well beyond any shadow of a doubt.

[kskiska]

111. I've been to Dachau

The barracks themselves have been destroyed, though the foundations are still there. There were mock-ups of how the barracks were arranged at three different periods. The earlier one was spacious with other furniture besides bunks, but the last phase was wall-to-wall bunks. The ovens are intact, though I think I remember being told they had not yet been used. The gas chambers are there. Prisoners were often lined up outside after having dug ditches, then shot, to fall into the ditches. The bodies were then bulldozed into the ground.

There were also large photographic displays depicting camp activities such as marching bands, and medical experiments performed upon the inmates.

We had some difficulty finding the camp and asked directions of pedestrians. Many were reluctant to comply.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[supernova]

13. Surely you jest,

In fact, many victims were gassed or shot and simply dumped into mass graves. No need to burn the body when you've convinced yourself you're doing the right thing in the first place. Sick.

[everythingsxen]

17. supernova is quite correct..

No need to cremate early on. The Nazi's simply worked them to death initially, then moved on to extermination as part of the Final Solution.

Early on they simply used mass graves, however they began having difficulties because they filled the surrounding areas with graves and after rains bodies would start popping up.

Then they tried simply burning them, which failed as well, finally the answer presented itself in the form of the crematories...

It is *possible* that the total numbers are skewed, one way or the other, since afterall both "sides" have their own reasons to exaggerate the numbers.

[mobuto]

63. Not really

the six million figure seems pretty damn accurate, and has held up all sorts of criticism.

[supernova]

92. I've never, EVER disputed the # of victims

in the holocaust. Don't even try to put that over on me.

But our friend up there in the deleted post seemed to be suggesting that you couldn't possibly murder that many people in the time allowed if everybody was creamated.

I merely pointed out otherwise.

[mobuto]

109. I'm not tryng to put anything on you

I'm merely pointing out that the six million figure is not an exageration. You were absolutely right to challenge that previous post.

[DrWeird]

21. Maybe you should study history.

Not only did the germans cremate that many people.

They studied how much coke it took to stoke a fire to cremate that many people. And they kept detailed records.

Short answer: it took a lot of coke to get it started, but once it got going the human fat was enough to fuel the fire.

They used these records in a famous trial of a holocaust denier, and frankly anybody who brings up the 'fuel and cremation' debate is probably already aware of this.

Unless they've been getting their information from white supremacist sites.

[mobuto]

55. Not true at all

Treblinka was indeed inefficient, which is why it was abandoned. The crematoria that they then built at Auschwitz and at other camps were brilliantly designed. The evidence that millions were cremated is incontrivertible.

At least 900,000 were killed at Treblinka alone - that is beyond question and is fully supported by the testimony of its commandant, Kurt Franz. German and Ukrainian guards have testified that the numbers were twice that.

[Mountainman]

11. Even when Hitler was willing to let Jews leave, we would not take them.

Eleanor Roosevelt did all she could to help Jews immigrate during the time before we entered the war and Hitler was willing to let them leave but our government would not change it's policies and even sent Jews back to Europe who had made it here by ship.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

18. nor would Canada.

[mobuto]

46. That is correct

Canada took far fewer Jews than other Western democracy (with the exception of Australia), including the United States, and adjusting for anything you'd like to adjust for, like population.

[mobuto]

44. Every Jew who wanted to get out of Germany did

Before the war, 72% of Germany's Jewish population left. And for good reason, given the Nuremberg Laws, Kristallnacht, etc. Most of those who stayed were the elderly - 83% of German children and youth, for example, left.

A surprisingly large number came here to the United States, but you're right, we did have very restrictive immigration policies at a time when Jews were being harassed, but not killed, by the Nazis. Many went to Britain. Most went to Poland, France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Nobody expected the Low Countries or Poland to be overrun so fast if war broke out. Nobody expected France, which at that point had the largest and most heavily armed army in Europe, to be defeated at all.

So many of the German Jews who fled to other parts of Europe were indeed killed in the Holocaust. But its extraordinarily misleading to blame the US for that, because American policymakers would have first had to predict the war, second had to predict the Holocaust, and third had to predict that Germany's army would be supremely succesful. And nobody knew any of those.

even sent Jews back to Europe who had made it here by ship.

Again, not one of the Jews who was on the St. Louis (the ship you're referring to) returned to Germany. Every single one went to European democracies where their rights were protected. Those on board who did die, died after the countries they fled to were conquered by Nazi Germany.

[bobbieinok]

66. have you seen PBS documentary America and the Holocaust?

it states that the sec of state Byron Breckenridge ordered the US embassies and consulates in Europe to 'delay and delay and delay' the processing of visas for Jews.

the documentary (90 min) was broadcast ca the time Schindler's List came out.

also NPR a year or so ago had a report from the US Holocaust Museum group working on tracking down the people on the St Louis. many of them did die in the concentration camps. one descendant found in Israel refused to talk with them when he found out they were from the US. he said he held the US directly responsible for the death of his parents (grandparents?) in the holocausst.

there was also quite a bit in the documentary about the rampant anti-semitism in the US before and during WWII. for example, page after page of want ads in NYC papers 'christians only; jews not wanted.'

[mobuto]

75. Byron Breckenridge?

it states that the sec of state Byron Breckenridge ordered the US embassies and consulates in Europe to 'delay and delay and delay' the processing of visas for Jews.

I've never heard of a Byron Breckenridge. The US Secretary of State from 1933-1944 was Cordell Hull. Perhaps you're probably thinking of Breckenridge Long, who was head of the State Department's Immigrant Visa program in 1940. Long was an anti-Semite, but he played only a very small part in the program.

Before the war, each country was assigned a visa quota. Because of the Depression, the US made a conscious effort to keep immigrants out, to preserve what jobs there were for Americans. So despite the horrors of the Spanish Civil War, which killed a million people, we gave out a total of 252 visas a year to Spaniards during the height of the bloodshed. Only 1649 visas were assigned for all of Asia, despite the Sino-Japanese War and the Chinese Civil War, and the Armenian genocide. Millions of the Bolsheviks' enemies were trying to get away from the purges in Soviet Russia - we gave out a total of 2,712 visas per year to Russians. In 1938, we let in 43,450 Jews.

Between 1933, when Hitler came to power, and 1942, when we entered the war, we let in 160,051 Jews, 35.5% of all immigrants. Between 1938 and 1940, the height of the prewar persecution of Jews, Jews amounted for over half of all imigrants admitted into the United States. This was despite the fact that bloody wars were being fought all over the world (the Rape of Nanking, for example, was in 1937)- there was a conscious, high level effort to protect the Jews from the beginning.

Yes there was anti-Semitism in the State Department. But there was also a great deal of sentiment towards the Jews, and the United States did a lot more than it had to, more than any other country, to help them.

also NPR a year or so ago had a report from the US Holocaust Museum group working on tracking down the people on the St Louis. many of them did die in the concentration camps.

Absolutely. A lot of them died in the camps. But that's not the United States' fault. After they were denied entry into the US (they were actually trying to go to Cuba, but didn't have visas), they didn't go back to Germany. They went to France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Britain. Those who were killed were killed after the countries they went to were conquered by the Nazis. We could not have forseen that, nor should we be held responsible for it. France had 1.5 million men in her army, more than any other country in the world. We were supposed to know that France would be defeated a year later or that three years later, the Holocaust would begin?

one descendant found in Israel refused to talk with them when he found out they were from the US. he said he held the US directly responsible for the death of his parents (grandparents?) in the holocausst.

With all due respect to him, he is wrong. Only one nation is responsible for the deaths of his parents, and that's Germany.

there was also quite a bit in the documentary about the rampant anti-semitism in the US before and during WWII. for example, page after page of want ads in NYC papers 'christians only; jews not wanted.'

There was certainly anti-Semitism in the US. My grandparents, when they got married in the 1930s were each disowned and disinherited by their respective parents, because my grandfather was Jewish and my grandmother was a WASP. But there was a lot less of that than you might imagine.

The Gallup Organization took a poll from Nob 24-29 1938, just two weeks after Kristallnacht which asked "Do you approve or disaprove of the Nazi treatment of Jews in Germany?"

Approve: 6%
Disapprove 94%

There are dozens of other polls, which I can cite for you if you'd like, that show from the outset that the American public was anti-Nazi, anti-Hitler, and not anti-Semitic. The anti-Semitism that was there, moreover, was most-often genteel ignorance, nothing like the pathological hatred you saw in Germany, Poland, Russia, etc.

[Lostnote03]

123. Question???

.......are you familiar the story of Sen. Joseph McCarty, prior to being an elected official representing the American Nazi Party in a 1st Amendment case?....I could not recall the accuracy of that report, when deciding to call in to our local talk show that was hosting Ann Coulter when promoting her last psycho-gap thrilla!!!

[mobuto]

126. Unlikely

I haven't heard that story before, and while I haven't looked over any of my biographies of McCarthy (I have entirely too many books) I doubt that it occured exactly as you said, since Tailgunner Joe didn't practice law after 1940 - and the American Nazi Party wasn't in any First Amendment cases before that.

If you are looking for an outspoken conservative who has inteceded time and time again on behalf of accused Nazis, you can look no further than Patrick J. Buchanan.

[kskiska]

112. Some made it to Japan

There's an excellent book called "The Fugu Plan," in which Japan took in a number of Jews from Europe.

http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjt05110.htm

(snip)

The Japanese were allies of the Nazis, yet they allowed thousands of European refugees – including the entire Mirrer Yeshivah – to enter Shanghai and Kobe during World War II. They welcomed these Jews into their country, not because they bore any great love for the Jews, but because they believed that Jews had access to enormous resources and amazingly influential power which could greatly benefit Japan. This is all detailed in the book, " The Fugu Plan " by Marvin Tokayer.

[mobuto]

131. Yes and No

The Mirer Yeshivah of which you speak was really fleeing the Soviets, not the Nazis. They had fled the Nazis earlier, in 1939-1940 and found the Soviets to be insufficiently hospitable.

But yes, their move is a historical oddity.

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. That's why Israel is necessary

[supernova]

12. Hoo boy, this is sick!

:eyes:

It's a wonder asylum escapees are allowed to live free and procreate. :eyes:

[slappypan]

14. this racist creepazoid

sure is getting a lot of attention lately thanks to "Monty Gibson's Life of Brian."

[derby378]

16. Ask him to define "Sonderbehandlung"

Let's see him dance around that one for a while...

[mobuto]

137. Sonderbehandlung = Special Treatment

Jews in Aushwitz (where they were housed for their own protection) were given ice cream sundaes once a month. Didn't you know that?

Groan.

[Loonman]

19. So that smoke is just happy Germans roasting marshmallows, right?

[JasonDeter]

20. And his opinion is important because...?

It has nothing to do with anything. It has nothing to do with Mel Gibson the movie he made or from the interview, it has nothing to do with Mel Gibsons personal opinions on the subject of Christ, His death, and His Resurrection!

[supernova]

24. Well, I'm not holding his father's views

against Mel. But I do think it doesn't help his case, IF he has a healthy case to make about his movie.

If the story of Jesus had happened in our own time, does anybody really believe Jesus would have escaped the gas chambers. :shrug:

My point is, someone who professes to love God, the God of the original covenent with the Jews, the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob also denies the Holocuast?

Something to think about.

[JasonDeter]

31. Mel Gibson recently denied the Holocaust? LInk please?

[supernova]

36. Not what I said,

I didn't say Mel denied the Holocaust. My last sentence refers to his father.

[JasonDeter]

64. You said this:

"My point is, someone who professes to love God, the God of the original covenent with the Jews, the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob also denies the Holocuast? "

Nowhere in the article in the origional post that supplied a link says anything anywhere about the father's profession of any Faith. So again, what does Mel Gibson's father have to do with Mel Gibson's making of a Christian movie, considering its Mel Gibson's Faith that is in question? Mel Gibson hasn't denied the Holocaust. In fact his father hasn't really denied the Holocaust, only the scope of it, which I don't agree with btw.

[supernova]

73. Prove to me Mel's Dad

*isn't* a Holocaust denier. Try harder. Your obsfucation is too transparent.

[mobuto]

78. This is a stupid argument

1. Mel Gibson's father has denied the Holocaust on numerous occaisions. I remember notably a long article in the NY Times Sunday Mag in which he did so at great length.

2. Gibson's father is the head of a radical sect of ultra-orthodox Catholics who bolted from the Church after Vatican II, rejected the Pope as the anti-Christ, and set up their own churches. A number of them are funded entirely by Mel Gibson. Gibson is a religious fanatic, just like his father. It is in that context that he made this movie. The movie itself may or may not be anti-Semitic (I'm not particularly interested in it, either way), but its certainly associated with those who are.

[leftchick]

87. Mel refused to show a screening of the film to Jewish leaders....

who requested to see it. Mel said no. He had no problem showing it to Christian pastors and pundits....(taken from this week edition of EW.)
Perhaps Mel was expressing some of his daddy's beliefs?

[Muddleoftheroad]

97. Or perhaps he didn't want his film raked over the coals

By folks who don't believe Jesus is the savior...

Since clearly Jewish people are NOT the target market for the movie, why single them out and invite criticism?

[x-g.o.p.er]

33. Agree completely

Mel Gibson's Dad didn't make this film, Mel Gibson did. If Michael Moore's dad was interviewed and said he was a staunch Bush supporter, would that reflect on MM's views? No, it wouldn't.

[salinen]

22. No way in hell

am I going to see the movie.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. As crazy as a shithouse rat Mel may be,

I agree with him here: "He's my father. Gotta leave it alone Diane. Gotta leave it alone."

Hutton Gibson's remarks add only ignorant colour to the story. Mel's big enough to stand or fall by his own prejudices.

[TNOE]

28. Minstrel Boy

its amazing how you always nail it on the head for me. I was going to post exactly the same thing. Frankly I think the movie looks great and I can't wait to see it. It is art and Mel is the artist telling the story the way he believes it to be. I think it might mirror our times more than we realize as the priests were becoming to profitable and powerful and Jesus spoke out against them - thus one of the first "suicidings" of the powerful against the truth. Let's not forget too that Jesus was a Jew. I loved Mel's interview - he came off very well and I admire and respect someone who protects his father the way that he did.

[Minstrel Boy]

32. TNOE

Thanks!

This anti-Passion backlash - well, it's really a forelash - is silly, unless one has actually viewed it. It reminds me of the fundamentalists' outrage over Scorsese's adaptation of The Last Temptation of Christ (which I found to be a beautiful, spiritual work): It's terrible! A blasphemy! Have you seen it? Of course not!

[9215]

25. It is impossible to "exaggerate" the Holocaust;

its horror can only be understated. After reading Erwin Black's book "IBM and the Holocaust" I am convinced that the centralization of power and information in the hands of a few, no matter how ostensibly democratic the society may be, is a very serious threat to humanity.

This is a must read to understand how horribly easy it is to use, what seems to be, innocuous data on people to create a monstrous machine of oppression. As much as I already knew of this episode in history I was still stunned by the way technology combined with blind greed facilitated the slaughter.

[cubsfan6969]

26. The Psychology of Mel Gibson

He's obviously had a psychotic episode in which he has incorporated his dad's belief into his own. This was probably done because of a unhealthy childish need to satisfy his father. In other words, Mel is a schizo! So says me- Dr. Freud

[supernova]

29. You have a point

Mel openly admits to having an addictive personality.

Perhaps he's substituted an addiction to theology for an addiction to chemicals. :shrug:

[seemslikeadream]

30. It is a must read 9215

Most people don't know Hitler got his ideas from America. Edwin Black can be seen on BookTV at www.cspan.org. It was a really excellent lecture

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized - legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920's came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-war years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder.
One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins.

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

[bobbieinok]

67. there's info that the bush family was heavily involved with eugenics

projects.

[seemslikeadream]

69. Black's last book

the award winning bestseller IBM and the Holocaust, told of how Big Blue created what marketers call a customized business solution to help their Third Reich clients plan and carry out the Final Solution. The shocking revelation of War Against the Weak is how much German ideas about rassenhygieme(literally "race hygiene") were modeled on research methods and social engineering practices that began in the United States decades before Adolf Hitler wrote a single word of Mein Kampf. Nearly as astonishing is the overwhelming evidence linking the eugenics movement to the highest levels of American academia, philanthropy and government. And there are other surprising facts as well.

The central theme of War Against the Weak can be summed up in the declarative sentence that opens the second chapter: "Mankind's quest for perfection has always turned dark." From the first statement by Herbert Spencer in the mid-1800's of the concept of the survival of the fittest to Hitler's announcement nearly a century later that he would exterminate the Jews "like lice," Black chronicles a descent into horror Even Joseph Conrad's character Mr. Kurtz would be loathe to imagine.

By the late '20s, more than half the states in the union had laws to eliminate "undesirables." Tens of thousands were forcibly sterilized; tens of thousands more were denied the right to marry or were institutionalized. Some died because doctors withheld treatment from them in an effort to stop "defective germ plasm" from flowing into the American gene pool. The "Ultimate Program," as it was called in 1923, was to extend negative eugenics to every nation on earth.

The weaker members had long been eliminated by natural selection. This was set out in texts like The Passing of a Great Race by American eugenicist Madison Grant, which Hitler read while imprisoned in the mid '20s for inciting mob violence. (The German translation was published by Hitler's co-conspirator Julis Lehman; Hitler even wrote Grant a fan letter declaring the book his "Bible".)

http://www.popmatters.com/books/reviews/w/war-against-the-weak.shtml

[smirkymonkey]

71. And the Bush family was also involved in

helping to finance the holocaust and launder money for the Nazis.

[seemslikeadream]

83. How the Bush Family Wealth is Linked to the Jewish Holocaust

from my friend bobthedrummer

Throughout the Bush family's decades of public life, American press has gone out of its way to overlook one historical fact- that through Union Banking Corporation, Prescott Bush and his father-in-law George Herbert Walker along with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, financed Adolf Hitler before and during World War II. It was first reported in 1994 by John Loftus and Mark Aarons in The Secret War Against the Jews: How Westerm Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ROG309A.html

[Generic Other]

81. You mean they created that idiot through selective breeding?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Teach them to mess with Mother Nature!

[Malva Zebrina]

61. yes, holocausts are horrific

and there have been many of them over time. It is not only Hitler's sickness, but it is also in the history of Christianity. Hitler, BTW, was a Christian and often referred to the christ in his speeches.

There were the American Indians, as well as the natives in South America, as well as those columbus discovered and persecuted and used as slaves, put them all on islands or brought them back to Spain to be sold as slaves.

YEs, man's inhumanity to man is rampant and we have not risen above that in spite of thousands of years of "religion"



this is the "separation wall" in Israel. Remind you of anything? Brings to my mind the Warsaw ghetto. Now that is real irony is it not?

Human beings have not evolved any further than they were thousands of years ago. WE kill, maim, persecute and perform holocausts on others. The Jews are not the only victims==there are plenty of others who have been persecuted, maimed and killed for the same reasons--

so when will people understand that religion actually, is the cause of this and all these holocausts? The tribal mentality leads to fundamentalism and greed and hate. No one human being is better than another. There are different cultural differences that depend upon the amount of wealth, not the amount of humaness, in each culture.

it is time to admit that all are guilty. There is a potential in any state to repeat a holocaust against another.

[smirkymonkey]

72. So true...and so tragic

why can't we ever learn. Still, the hate goes on and I also don't believe that the Holocaust is the last one humanity will see.

[maveric]

74. The Turks killed 2 million Armenians.

I have Armenians friends back in MA & NH and the elders would always speak of the slaughter and the hate they still hold for the Turks.

[mobuto]

79. Armenians

Truly one of the only peoples to have suffered more than the Jews.

You have some people who say - quite without justification - that the Western democracies turned their backs on the Jews during the Holocaust. You want to see a horror really ignored? Look at the Armenian genocide and the West's non-reaction to that.

[maveric]

80. That genocide is almost unknown over here in th US of A.

And the Turks werent as methodical about it either. They just rode in and sliced and shot them all up.
There is a large Armenian population in the Lawrence MA/Salem NH area and many of my Armenian friend's parents/grandparents would talk about the horrors of that holocuast. The word "Turk" was not to be spoken in their presence.

[fudge stripe cookays]

100. "The Burning Tigris"

by Peter Balakian looks like a fascinating book. I saw it in a bookstore the other day, but was on strict instructions to spend no money. I have to go back and get it.

I was not familiar with this genocide until I studied 20th Century Art back around 1995 and became an Arshile Gorky fan. Gorky was Armenian, and his mother died from disease or starvation in one of the camps. He managed to escape to America, but he did many beautiful haunting portraits of his mother.

[kskiska]

113. My grandfather escaped the Turks

He lived in Turkish Armenia near Mount Ararat. Most of his family was massacred, along with his young wife. However, he arrived in the U.S. via France in 1909, which indicates this massacre had been going on for some time before 1915. His brother and sister also escaped to the U.S. Unfortunately, I never knew him since he died very young (35), long before I was born. My grandmother (not Armenian) told me stories of the Turkish atrocities he spoke of.

[eissa]

128. My grandmother's baby sister didn't make it

Neither did many others in my family, or my husband's (his mother's entire family, except her father, were wiped out). And as a poster indicated above, they slaughtered indiscriminately -- Armenians, Assyrians (which I am), and Greeks -- as long as they were Christian. And they had a whole lot of help from a currently favored "oppressed" group, the Kurds.

[mobuto]

129. The Turks used one minority against the other

its classic. The Turkish government spent thirty years encouraging Kurds to kill Armenians, just as the Russians put pressure on the Cossacks to kill Jews.

[9215]

84. Allen Dulles got the US to keep its nose out of that one too.

The young Dulles and Henry Morganthau were at odds over the US position on this matter. Dulles wanted to remain neutral to keep the oil flowing from Turkey, Morganthau called for US intervention on moral grounds. A short twenty years later the same scene would be reenacted on the eve of WWII. Morganthau would later spearhead the US Treasury Dept's "denazification" program in post WWII Germany against stiff pressure from Dulles and friends.

Hitler, as a young German officer in WWI watched the Turkish slaughter of the Armenians and, more importantly, how the West was divided on the issue as, coincidently it would be again when Hitler applied the same tactics used by the "Ittihad" Turks to the Jews. German business combine IG Farben would hire Dulles company Sullivan and Cromwell to write its contracts for its business with the Allied company subsidiaries. Contracts that would later prove to be detrimental to the Allies war production. Many US companies refused to produce beyond the quotas set by their parent German companies in pre-WWII agreements.

I.G.Farben...of
Germany. ...By its cartel agreements with Standard Oil, the
United States was effectively prevented from developing or
producing any substantial amount of
synthetic rubber," said Senator Robert LaFollette of Wisconsin

18. Hearings Before the Committee on Patents, United States Senate,
77th Cong., 2nd Session (1942)., part I, as cited in Joseph Borkin,
The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben, New York: The Free Press,
Macmillan, 1978, p.93.



One spectacular example of this phenomenon was a British company refusing to build carburetors for the Spitfire fighters because of a pre WWII contractual aggreement with their German partner. This happened as the Luftwaffe was bombing London!

Then we have Dupont's attempt on FDR while they have heavy investments in German Opel

Fast forward to Korea and also in Vietnam and we have Ford's Soviet Gorki fighting vehicle being used by the N. Vietnamese.......

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/best_enemy/chapter_02.htm



Forward further we have GM "military" vehicles re-classified as "commercial" being found in Iraqi bunkers after the first Gulf War. The designation had been changed by NSC head Brent Scowcroft
who, just coincidently, was invested in GM. Ditto for "recreational" Bell Helicopters sold to Iraq.

[mobuto]

85. You got the wrong Morgenthau

The Henry Morgenthau who was the US Ambassador to Turkey and who reported the atrocities against the Armenians was the father of FDR's Secretary of the Tresury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

Hitler, as a young German officer in WWI watched the Turkish slaughter of the Armenians

Can that be verified?

Then we have Dupont's attempt on FDR while they have heavy investments in German Opel

Attempt on FDR? Please explain.

Fast forward to Vietnam and we have Ford's Soviet Gorki fighting vehicle being used by the N. Vietnamese.......

Well of course they did. Ford built a huge auto plant in the Soviet Union on commission from Stalin, during the 1930s when the USSR's main enemy was Nazi Germany. If it was used in the 1950s and 1960s to build military vehicles that killed Americans, then that's a lesson in the law of unintended consequences, but hardly a moral point.

I'll try to address what I see as a few more inaccuracies in the above, if I get around to it.

[9215]

86. here you go

You don't know about Dupont and FDR?


From the link above:

.......Finally, in 1964 Gorki produced the first Soviet wire-guided missile antitank system. This consisted of four rocket-launchers mounted on a GAZ-69 chassis. These weapons turned up in Israel in the late 1960s. The GAZ-69 chassis produced at Gorki is also widely used in the Soviet Army as a command vehicle and scout car. Soviet airborne troops use it as a tow for the 57-millimeter antitank gun and the 14.5-millimeter double-barrelled antiaircraft gun. Other Gorki vehicles used by the Soviet military include the GAZ-69 truck, used for towing the 107-millimeter recoilless rifle (RP-107), the GAZ-46, or Soviet jeep, and the GAZ-54, a 1 1/2-ton military cargo truck.
In brief, the Gorki plant, built by the Ford Motor Company the Austin Company and modernized by numerous other U.S. companies under the policy of "peaceful trade," is today a major producer of Soviet army vehicles and weapons carriers.........
......On April 19, 1972, the U.S. Navy photographed a Russian freighter bound for Haiphong with a full load of military cargo, including a deck load of ZIL-130 cargo trucks and ZIL-555 dump trucks (Human Events, May 13, 1972). Thus the "peaceful trade" of the 1930s, the 1940s, the 1950s, 1960s and the 1970s was used to kill Americans in Vietnam, and commit genocide in Afghanistan.........
Chapter III
.....Although the military output from Gorki and ZIL was well known to U.S. intelligence and therefore to successive administrations, American aid for construction of even large military truck plants was approved in the 1960s and 1970s.
Under intense political pressure from the deaf mute blindmen, U.S. politicians, particularly in the Johnson and Nixon administrations under the prodding of Henry Kissinger (a long-time employee of the Rockefeller family), allowed the Togliatti (Volgograd) and Kama River plants to be built.....

[mobuto]

88. Um

Again, the plant was built in the 1930s and took American assistance in the 1940s, when the only issue was building enough vehicles to defeat Hitler. You state that American assistance continued into the 1950s. I'm somewhat skeptical of that claim and would like to see proof.

But the reasons for American assistance are clear - to defeat Hitler - and Ford isn't responsible for not having predicted that the Cold War would follow.

Togliattis, btw, were Russian FIATs, not Fords and the plant was constructed in 1967. I'm not at all sure what Kissinger has to do with that. If you want to blame Italy, be my guest.

The only Kama River plant I'm aware of was only built in 1976, with car production beginning in 1987. Again, I'm not sure what the US has to do with this one either, nor what your problem is.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truebrit71]

34. 1) Mel's Dad is a stupid motherf*cker 2) Apple doesn't fall far from the

tree I guess???

Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY that has seen one of those camps cannot help but be repulsed at man's limitless cruelty to fellow man, and a deep hatred of anyone so stupid, so thick, so utterly FULL OF SHIT as to deny the holocaust...

Mel Gibson and his sick-fuck Dad can kiss my hairy white arse....

:grr:

[AlienGirl]

35. UGH!!! Holocaust denial fries my noodle...

There are records, pictures, eyewitness acounts--heck, even a CONFESSION from Eichmann about what took place. And yet some idiots still don't get that it *happened.* :grr: :grr:

Tucker

[everythingsxen]

39. Yeah.. Eichmann says quite a bit...

He was completely unapologetic about the whole thing. I dare to guess that he was even proud of his "accomplishments"...

[AlienGirl]

40. No doubt...

Didn't he say something about going to the grave smiling, knowing all those deaths were on his conscience? :scared:

Tucker

[everythingsxen]

41. I was going to mention that..

but yes, yes he does.

Eichman was one of the most evil of all those involved in the final solution, however his name is barely known. Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich all seem to get more credit, though Eichmann actually stood trial for his crimes...

[AlienGirl]

43. Most people haven't heard of Heydrich

But you're right, Eichmann was among the worst of the lot.

Tucker

[mobuto]

45. Have people heard of Lidice?

Reinhard Heydrich's final legacy?

Or was that an "exageration" as well?

[everythingsxen]

47. Yeah..

*shrug*

That's what happens though...

The Nazi's were not known for screwing around... (well in matters of evil and revenge)

I mean, you can only have an army wear black, red and adorn them skulls for so long before people get the hint...

[Jacobin]

37. well, well well.....a holocaust denier

these bastards are the sickest ones of all.

[Lefergus70]

132. Whhat makes deniers?

What do psychologists say about holocaust deniers? What type of person feels the need to believe such horrific lies?

[enki23]

38. er.. this *is* relevent. not damning by itself, but relevent

assuming mel gibson spent time with his father as a child, anyway. it's not his fault his father's a fool, but it might add a small bit of evidence about his own motives. like everything else in life (or nearly everything) you've gotta go with weight of evidence, and every little bit adds up.

[Mari333]

42. Dont EVER forget..the groups that back Gibson also advocate THIS

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5646.htm

[seemslikeadream]

56. You are so correct Mari333

Theonomic Reconstructionism -- One God One Vote

Biblical Law Trumps Civil Law

The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States is a Christian nation.

Since the Religious Right began to dominate the Republican Party, and the Republican Party won majorities in both Houses of the U.S. Congress, the influence of the Religious Right has become immense. And they have a powerful ally in the White House. The President's Faith-Based Initiative is transforming the United States into a "Christian" nation.

The mission of the National Reform Association is to maintain and promote in our national life the Christian principles of civil government, which include, but are not limited to, the following:

Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government

Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Rule of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God.

The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therfore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments.

The apathy of other Americans can become a blessing and advantage to Christians.

www.theocracywatch.org

Don't forget who started the Touchscreen voting machine businesses Howard Ahmanson, California billionaire, Theonomic Reconstructionist.

BE AFRAID BE VERY AFRAID :nuke:

Iraq is a Holy War

[seemslikeadream]

70. Background on the touchscreen voting machines

Theonomic Reconstructionism is a belief that the only true authority is God's, that allegiance to biblical laws trumps that of civic law and that the Kingdom of Heaven needs to be built on Earth before Jesus will come again. In addition to that, homosexuals should be put to death, women should be banned from civic office, apostates and heretics should be stoned to death and there is a great need for more Christian politicians.

Not content to philosophize about such things, the TR movement sprang into action. Funded by billionaires such as Howard Ahmanson and the Coors and Hunt families, Reconstructionists formed think tanks such as the Chalcedon Institute and the Rutherford Institute to give the Christian Right a philosophical base to draw from, and political action committees to finance their elections.

According to the Reconstructionists, Jesus would do what Howard Ahmanson did. Ahmanson inherited his money from his father, owner of Home Savings & Loan. In addition to funding PACs and think tanks, Howard Jr. parlayed his fortune into the majority stock of a business called American Information Systems started by two enterprising brothers, Todd and Bob Urosevich. AIS later merged with Business Records Corporation and became Election Systems & Solutions. ES&S is the number one provider of touchscreen voting machines, Their website claims that their products were used in collecting 56% of the national vote in the last presidential elections.

Todd Urosevich is now Vice President of ES&S. Strangely enough, brother Bob moved on to head the second largest computerized vote-counting business, Global Election Systems, recently purchased by ATM and security giant Diebold. In a round table swap of incestuous patronage the previous executives of Global moved on to head the third largest vote-counting company in the nation, Advanced Voting Systems. Combined, these three corporations will process nearly 80% of the next national elections.

www.tabletnewspaper.com/politics/73_tftgk.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. I think Mel has the moral obligation to say, in public...

"My father is a Nazi sympathizer loon. I am ashamed of him."

I know I would if it was MY father (it isn't. My father is a liberal social-democrat, and I'm very proud of him).

Of course, he has every right NOT to say this. And we have the right to use our powers of reasoning upon such silence. Tree, apple, fall etc.

[eissa]

53. I wouldn't

As someone who holds polar opposite views with my family on almost everything, I would never say I was ashamed of my parents on national television.

As a poster stated above, would we be crucifying Michael Moore or Al Franken if their father was this loony?

[tom_paine]

49. Gibson's Dad is a FREEPER

If we were German, would there be any doubt that the Freepers would be doing their "Ann Coulter's revisionistic rehabilitation of McCarthyism as halcyon days" with the Holocaust.

Anyone doubt that for even a second?

Anyone...?

[historian]

54. Eisenhower

Was the film taken of Eisenhower inspecting a concentration after its liberation "special effects?" Gibson can go screw himself - ill never spend another penny on his movies.

[maveric]

57. Ask Andy Rooney if the Holocaust was a fake.

He was a young army journalist in the European Theater and one of the first to see and report of the atrocities.
Have Mel's dad give ole Andy a call.

[mobuto]

62. So was Ronald Reagan

Or not. He claimed he was. I think he probably thought he was too.

[LeahMira]

96. No need to ask Andy...

There are American GIs (both Jewish and non-Jewish) who were held in the German concentration camps. Many of them died there either from starvation, disease, or a bullet through the head. There are survivors though, who are still alive. You don't need to ask Andy Rooney... just find any WWII vets group in your area and someone will be able to hook you up to the survivors. Anyone who imagines that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that it was exaggerated, need only ask a fellow American who was there and saw what was happening. How's about Mel make a movie about those guys' experiences?

[Darranar]

59. Disgusting...

Holocaust denial is anti-semitic idiocy.

[David Zephyr]

68. Mel Gibson Should Be Asked to Speak to His Father's Cruel Words.

"It's all - maybe not all fiction - but most of it is."

I hope the media will make something of this and not let Gibson slide by with a smile.

This is a very wicked statement by his father...who knows better.

[theHandpuppet]

76. A Family of Bigots, Misogynists and RW Loonies

Gibson's dad a certified RW nutjob:
http://www.flatlandbooks.com/gibson.html

Mel neatly avoids answering a direct question about whether or not he believes the holocaust happened: http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=msm

The Gibsons: a family of whack-job, homophobic bigots and loonies: http://web1.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=50
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=927

[0007]

135. You hit the nail on the head!

Wish everyone would read your links.

[leesa]

77. "most of it is"?? Where is his proof? There's quite a bit of proof to

the other claim.

[roguevalley]

82. This whole movie thing makes me laugh. Consider this:

He's married to a woman named Robin who is episcopalian.
He's on the record as saying if you aren't Catholic, you
are going to hell. All protestants including his wife,
all Jews, all whatever, everyone. They are all going to
hell. Interesting man, no? Here he is using Protestants
to sell his movie and he believes they will all go to
hell because they aren't Catholic.

I think we've all lost our marbles. All of us.

[supernova]

89. That's it!!

You've summed up this whole idiotic episode so neatly.

He's using people he despises (or at the very least does not consider equal to himself) for his own purposes.

[seemslikeadream]

90. and now they are selling nails, as jewelry

to go with the movie

[supernova]

91. Ewww.. tell me this isn't so

please? :puke:

[seemslikeadream]

94. I heard it on TV this morning

I think it was CNN

[supernova]

99. Ugh. My original prediction about this

"project" may well be true if that's the case, selling gruesome trinkets.

My prediction is Mel is simply crucifying the poor man all over again without adding any other meaning to the story.

I can't say that will lead to any great enlightenment on anybody's part. Sad, really.

[theHandpuppet]

103. Check this out

The extremists and hatemonger elements within the Christian faith are latching on to Gibson as if he's the second coming:
www.SupportMelGibson.com

[supernova]

108. I'm aware of his matching up w/ the fundie evangelicals

and it is :puke: inducing, to say the least.

The real question is why? According to his own theology, protestants aren't going to heaven. So, is it just a case of "the ends justifies the means?"

I hadn't seen that particular site before, though. Again, :puke:

[Silverhair]

105. So? Hutton Gibson is NOT Mel Gibson.

Is the son guilty of the sins of the father? Because a parent holds a certain view, will the son automatically have that same view? My grandfather believed that Blacks had no souls and were a type of monkey. My father believed that the civil rights demonstrators should have been machinegunned as they marched.

Yet, I did what I could for civil rights during those days. Not much, I will admit, but I did what I could. By the logic of some here, I would be guilty of racism because my father & grandfather were guilty of racism.

It is not progressive to attack the son because of the beliefs of the father. BTW, dispite their beliefs, they were still family and I still loved them, and did not cut my ties to them. But I did learn to avoid certain subjects.

[theHandpuppet]

106. Are you familiar with Mel's beliefs?

They are a near mirror-image of his father's. It is YOU who are assuming that Mel doesn't share his father's views. Check out some of the links provided in this thread and you will see for yourself.

Mel has long been known to be a Catholic fundamentalist for whom even the Pope is not Catholic enough. I for one am tired of turning a blind eye to his homophobia, misogyny and bigotry.

In this case, the acorn didn't fall to far from the tree.

[Silverhair]

114. Then post documentation of Mel's views and attack him for those.

I still disagree with attacking him because of what his father might be saying.

[theHandpuppet]

119. I did post documentation

And I asked you to check out the links I posted on this very thread regarding Mel's own beliefs. Mel is a homophobe, a misogynist, and a religious extremist. If the links I provided as a sample weren't enough, then do what I did -- a Google search will provide you with reams of interviews regarding Mel Gibson's extremism and bigotry.

Edited to add yet another link to those I already posted: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14640

[Silverhair]

121. So attack Mel for what Mel says, and Hutton for what Hutton says. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

125. I believe I just did...

And I provided links which produce documentation to back it up. Again, I say that Mel is a misogynist, a homophobe and a religious extremist and many of his own opinions were shaped by and mirror those of his father. Did you not visit the links I provided regarding Mel's views? Or do you need some actual excerpts such as this one, from http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14640

Gibson has been the darling of conservatives long before his historically-challenged film, "The Patriot" whitewashed the American Revolution: He has been stalwart in his opposition to abortion; he favors capital punishment; has opposed birth control; and has occasionally put his foot in his mouth over gay and lesbian issues.

"They take it up the ass," Gibson told the Spanish publication El Pais in a January 1992 interview, as he bent over and pointed to his rear-end. "This is only for taking a shit," he said.

Or this:
Gibson's theology, writes Christopher Noxon in the New York Times, "is a strain of Catholicism rooted in the dictates of a 16th-century papal council and nurtured by a splinter group of conspiracy-minded Catholics, mystics, monarchists and disaffected conservatives -- including a seminary dropout and rabble-rousing theologist who also happens to be Mel Gibson's father."

Or this:
Others Traditionalists or sympathizers include: "Jeopardy" host Alex Trebek; actor James Caviezel, the star of "The Passion"; failed presidential candidate and MSNBC talk-show host Pat Buchanan who is "a longtime supporter of the traditional Latin Mass"; U.S. Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, who "attend the old Mass as well"; longtime National Review editor William F. Buckley, Jr., who "spoke of his own attachment to the Latin Mass" in an interview with PBS' Charlie Rose; and Watergate-criminal and veteran talk-radio host G. Gordon Liddy, who "has also spoken of the deficiencies of the modern liturgy on his radio show."

There's plenty more where that came from.

[mobuto]

110. I'm not accusing Mel Gibson of being an anti-Semite

but his father certainly is.

Mel Gibson bankrolls his father's activities, and together they run an extremist "Catholic" break-away sect that considers the Pope to be the anti-Christ.

I'm not sure I want to be sending him any more money, regardless of his view of Hitler.

[Silverhair]

115. Do you have documentation of that accusation? n/t

[mobuto]

116. Which accusation?

That his father is an anti-Semite or that both are active in an extremist "Catholic" break-away sect? I can support both.

[theHandpuppet]

120. Pointless...

I was also asked for documentation even after I posted several links to legitimate resources. If people choose not to read the evidence, any debate becomes pointless. But I agree with you -- there's plenty of evidence and has been for years.

[Bridget Burke]

130. The elder Gibson lives near Houston

He was recently profiled in the Houston Press: "The pope isn't Catholic. John Paul II, the man most people believe to be pope, is really an imposter. He's deliberately plotting to destroy the Catholic Church from within. Catholics have been lied to, and they have been robbed. These are the messages Hutton Gibson preaches in his crusade to save the souls of his fellow Catholics."

www.houstonpress.com/issues/2003-07-24/news.html/1/index.html

[Hammie]

133. Who here?

Who here would care to be condemed for the opinions of their parents?

The only reason you even know what is his opinion is because his son is famous. By reacting to him, you give him an importance he doesn't deserve.

[theHandpuppet]

134. Hutton's views are also Mel's

Peruse some of the other posts on this thread, including the links provided, and you'll find this acorn didn't fall far from the tree.

[Picasso]

136. The father is one sick bastard

and it seems the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree