Viet Nam

[cally]

This is the undercurrent of this campaign. So, how did Viet Nam affect you and your politics?

I was 13 or 14 during the height of the Viet Nam War. A few friends had brothers there, but the war was mostly a TV event. I sort of knew what was happening and I worried about the draft.

I went to Berkeley in 76 for college. The protests still resonated. Anyone who served was afraid to say that. We had several heated discussions about protests, serving in Viet Nam, arrests, and just moving on. After a few years, the discussions were more reasonable. We discussed what it means to serve your country and what it means to reconcile with each other. The wounds were still raw over the protests and those who went.

This war influenced all of us who lived during this time. Does anyone want to discuss it?

[Faygo Kid]

1. It changed my view of history, my nation, our leadership

When I was in 10th grade (1966) I participated in a speech class debate where I remember arguing that if we did not hold the line in Vietnam, the dominos of all the nations of Southeast Asia would fall to the Communists. Later that year, a wonderful history teacher assigned us to do individual research on the history of Vietnam. I learned that we stopped elections scheduled in the 1950s because Ho Chi Minh would have won; that China and Vietnam were longtime enemies and rivals (unlike China and Korea); that the Vietnamese had been cruelly used by colonial powers France and Japan, and that they had never, and never would, accept partition. George Romney, our Michigan governor, ran for president in 1968, and was knocked out because he claimed he had been "brainwashed" by the military on a visit to Vietnam - and he was right. Later, I faced the draft, but by the luck of the draw got a high lottery number (1970). Yours is a question breathtaking in its scope; most of us of that era could write a book about the war and its effects. Today's neocon dream is even more perverse, and the damage will be similarly incalculable. There is a lesson from Vietnam that resonates today. Hope you have seen "Fog of War," featuring Robert McNamara. Compelling.

[[e-mail]]

2. I returned from Viet Nam a sad....

...., screwed up and disillusioned young man. Toward the end of my tour in VN I started to put it all together. I finally figured out that my government lied to me and use me. I also discovered that the only thing the Vietnamese people wanted, was for us to go home- but leave the money. When I signed the final papers to get out of the service, I was warned that because of mounting anti-war sentiment, I would be smart not to wear my uniform off the base. I put on civilian clothes and on my way off the base, I chucked all my military clothing into one of the many 50 gallon trash barrels conveniently set up for that very purpose. On my flight home, there were a lot of Army Green Berets. I saw many of their uniforms, medals still attached to the shirt pockets, in the barrel I tossed my stuff into. When I got to my final destination (home) my wife took all my hazardous duty pay savings and my mustering out pay and bought herself a new car- and then promptly served me with divorce papers. She had found another man in my absence and besides, "I was different, I had changed". Damn right... That's the way it went in those days.

I then made a bad career choice and made several other bad decisions and went through 8-10 years of a horror of my own making, helped along by my service connected disillusionments. While all this was going on, I never felt one moment's anger over anyone who didn't go to Viet Nam. If a guy knee-capped himself to avoid going to Viet Name, well hell, he was showing more courage than the cowards who were ordering guys like me to go to a war zone. I attended several war protests and carried signs against the war, but I was to traumatized at the time to do much more than that. When I heard (this year) that Kerry actually became part of an Anti War group, I thought to myself that with this guy's background and experiences in Viet Nam, to do something like that showed courage and strength of conviction.

From the time I got out of the service until I read the speech Carter gave to Rolling Stone magazine, about big government/big business, I had no faith in my government and basically dropped out of participating in the American process. When Carter basically failed in office, I knew that it wasn't a fault of his, the deck was stacked and he was a victim of the very things that he warned us about.

I didn't care about anything to do with government again until Clinton came into office. The lines, at the time were blurring between the parties, but I liked Clinton and he did a lot more for the country than any of the Bushies. I've always felt that Clinton's only mistake was when he didn't tell the radical right to get out of his life and to go to hell and that his sex life was between him and his family. Alas...

During my lapses with participating in the process, I was many times appalled and generally amazed at what the republicans not only did, but what they got away with. But, when Bush the second stole the election and with what he has done while "in office", for the first time, I have been totally ashamed of my government. I am ashamed that legislators in a position to "do something" have not brought Bush and his cronies to account for what they have done and are doing to destroy government and this country. For the first time in my entire life, I am ashamed of what seems to be at least half of my fellow Americans, the ones who are asleep and don't even care to wake up to what's happening in this country today.

So, if the question is what were the effects that Viet Nam brought about in our country and what are it's lessons, for me, all I can say is this. The horror and travesty that was Viet Nam pales in many comparisons to what is happening in this country and this world today. The history that was Viet Nam has been basically forgotten, rewritten or lied about by a bunch of arm chair warriors who, while waving the flag, are picking the pockets of the entire world. Our "leaders" lie about the patriots that served in Viet Nam and before the very eyes of the people that guys like Kerry and others (far braver than me) defended, question their patriotism and smear them. While these "leaders" give us lip service and question my patriotism and my commitment to my country, because I find fault with their actions, they are destroying our credibility with the rest of this world and outright feeding young American bodies to a killing machine that they are responsible for creating.

God Bless America, Indeed....

[SWPAdem]

3. A lot of emotion there

Sure did bring the tears to my eyes....what a terrible sense of disillusionment for those of us that grew up in the fifties, thinking that our country was the absolute best, only to find out that it wasn't...all the lies, the assassinations, watching your generation getting greased in Nam while you were eating your dinner. Yep, that time is always with us, for better or worse.

[dw]

4. Wow. Thanks, Tom, and welcome to DU.

It was a couple of months into my tour in northern I Corps that I had my epiphany. I knew that politicians (led by Johnson, and then Nixon) were corrupt beyond redemption, but I thought the military was above all that, and was just there to 'accomplish the mission'.

I came to realize two things that hadn't previously crossed my mind: that many senior field-grade officers were cowards hiding well away from actual combat, and that Vietnam was a racist war. I had never encountered so much organized and deadly-serious hypocracy in my entire young life.

Being a white junior officer among enlisted men of all races and backgrounds (except the very wealthy) I found myself placed in a position of defending that hypocracy to the troops. While I never let up on drug abusers, I gradually shifted my allegiance from the official Army line to a personal mission to save American lives.

The one accomplishment I'm most proud of, the one the military doesn't award medals for, was seeing every kid in my platoon--over 200 of them--go home alive and in one piece. I never had to write a letter to a parent about the loss of their son, although many officers I knew had to write many such letters.

When I got home, I stayed in the Army an extra year and commanded a basic training company. I continued my mission to save American lives, and taught every kid that came through my company everything I could think of to keep him alive in combat.

And I attended protest rallies and I engaged in arguments against hawks and I wrote letters. And I wish I had done more. I wish I had done what John Kerry did.

It's all a distant memory now. My kids and grandkids have grown up not knowing anything about what Vietnam was really like. Nor should they. But the President of the United States certainly should, and should do everything in his/her power to ensure that Vietnam never happens again.

This is Bush's principal character flaw--he had his chance to see what combat is really all about and he ducked. His proponents are saying that all happened 30 years ago and is no longer important. But he's still the same shrinking coward, the same predatory bully, the same psychopathic liar. The worst possible choice this country could have made for a leader, because he just doesn't know what hell combat is, but thinks he does.

[ignatius]

26. Thom and DW, thank you for those responses, both were

awesome and very personal. "Predatory bully." I think you have captured the very essence of Chimpy and all of his evil cabal.

I am more than a little ashamed of how totally stupid I was during Vietnam. I was a teenager, a female and didn't pay much attention.

That is until my brother's best friend went, and then a kid in my school came back without an arm.

My brother's friend came back pretty much a mental case, lived with his parents until they died, couldn't hold a job and committed suicide.

Then I found out last Christmas that my sister in laws first husband was in Nam. He came home with some kind of pain in his feet. They thought maybe it was agent orange but he was denied any help. He was in constant pain and killed himself. Her daughter has lupus and Deb wonders if that too could have been an effect of the war.

Horrors and the effects are still being felt. I read that many of the Iraq war 1 vets are disabled because of depleted uranium and contact with other chemicals. You can bet that the kids over there now who make it home alive will have lingering problems.

Somehow, the profit needs to be taken out of war by the Boeings and Halliburtons of the world..that will end it.

[seemslikeadream]

10. I am also crying right now

Don't ever think you are alone thom. I have never and will never forget. The horror of it all never leaves my heart. My family lives with the scars of Nam every day. And now it has started all over again for the poor souls who had no idea what joining the Guard really meant, play things for the chickenhawks. The struggle will continue and we will prevail. We will all do our part and will never give up till we bring all our troops home.

You are loved

and welcome to DU you will find so much hope here, I do every day.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

15. In a strange way, reading about the sad experiences like the ones above

gives me hope too. I am 40 and being shallow and not terribly bright most of my life, I never understood why the people slightly older than me were always talking about Vietnam through the eighties and nineties.

But the past few years it has started to come together and make sense to me. I was a Clark supporter, but now that it appears Kerry may be the nominee, there is a lot that is positive about it because he went to Vietnam and then he came home and spoke out against the unfairness of it and he has the vets speaking with him. He isn't perfect, as no candidate is, but maybe the vets can help this country to learn from history and to try to be serious and thoughtful about solving some of the problems, like race, that lead to it and have led to the Iraq mess.

It sure is a stark departure away from despicable Bush and everything he stands for. I am glad the vets feel like they are finally getting heard and think hearing from them will benefit the coutry immensely.

[diamond14]

23. OUR Veterans are indeed STANDING UP (links and photos)

if more DUers would join them, we could together STOP the WAR and take back America.....

Veterans Against the Iraq War (VAIW)
http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php


Veterans for Peace
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/



Veterans for Common Sense
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/

Military Families Speak Out
http://www.mfso.org/

Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW)
http://www.vvaw.org/





Soldiers for the Truth
http://www.sftt.org/

Bring Them Home Now
http://www.bringthemhomenow.org

[diamond14]

11. attending the U of Michigan in 1968, I saw many young men with

their arms, legs, faces blown off and messed up mentally...it saddened me greatly to watch these once strong guys try to get into buildings and up curbs without any ramps...

the carnage was shocking...and still is....60% of the homeless laying on benches and heating grates in OUR Nation's Capital are Veterans....OUR Veterans....

when I was 16 years old, my cousin Charlie was KILLED in Vietnam, HM3 medic, silver star, purple heart, 19 years old....and the funeral home had TWO military caskets in every room...and I was horrified, because I didn't know there was a war going on...each casket had an American flag on it, and a photo of the soldier all with the same frame...I walked through every room and all were the same...I was real friends with my cousin and still miss him today....

in January 2003, I decided to join my FIRST protest...here in OUR Nation's Capital, a protest to stop the Iraq WAR before it even began...and to gain strength, I went to visit the VIETNAM WALL and asked Charlie to walk with me....panel 7E....

because rumsfeld INSULTed our Veterans in January 2003...calling them cannon-fodder....as memorialized in this video...

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/pentagoon.html


and then I STOOD UP...and a Vietnam Veteran joined me....

March 22, 2003 in front of the White House

[x-g.o.p.er]

17. Welcome Home

Keep the faith, and God Bless you.

[Mountainman]

18. Welcome home bro and welcome to DU

[diamond14]

21. thanks for your service, thom379....welcome to DU, we're glad that

you have joined us here....

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:



:toast: :toast: :toast:

[alwynsw]

28. Welcome to DU. How's it feel to be a FNG in a friendly place?

[newyawker99]

30. Hi [e-mail]!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[TahitiNut]

5. I answered this some time ago...

On Living In The 'World' of Lies

[Jimb100]

6. Affects?

When I was in high school I figured the war would be over before I graduated.

In 1965 it wasn't. But I went to college and it couldn't last another 4 years, but it did.

Nixon had a secret plan to end the war. Humphrey had nothing so I voted for Nixon.

I graduated in 69 and figured I'd go to Officer's School because the war couldn't last another two years. Secret plan - remember!

So there I was in 70 humping a 100 pound ruck up one hill and down the next for the 101st Abn.

Right about that time I figured out Nixon screwed me - secret plan, my ass.

At that point I vowed I would not vote again until I found an honest man running for office.

I haven't voted since 1968.

[diamond14]

12. your failure to vote...guarantees that you will be governed by your

INFERIORS....like the shrub



plato said this a long time ago...and it still applies today....

Plato: "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors"

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cally]

7. Thanks for the heartfelt responses

I'm kicking so others can read these.

[terryg11]

8. can I speak?

I wasn't born until 1972, my parents were in college during the height of the war and the protests against it. Growing up I used to love playing war, watching war movies and military things, don't know why, just did. Yet the spector of Vietnam was always present and as I gerw older started to notice. I was captivated by pictures of the peace movement and couldn't get over the images of the "hippies" the sixties were so unreal to read about. Learning that people had actually protested against the government was just an eye opener and to hear some of my teachers talk of it you could see they were still stirred by what they saw, said or did. Amazing. So I would read a little here and there, it seemed there was always something being written or produced on the Vietnam war even into to eighties.

Then came Platoon. I had watched the news coverage of people going to see it, coming out and their reactions. Veterans getting hugely emotional over what they experiencd in the theaters, some even having flashbacks. My dad and I went to see it and this was before every neighborhood had a mall multiplex, so Platoon was at the main theater downtown. The line went around the block like it was a Spielberg flick or something. Standing in line and listening to people talk about the war and their experiences, was strange since at the time I didn't really understand all they spoke of. What I saw on the screen that day made a lasting impression. The fact that I was only a teenager and was still able to take something away from that film pushed me to read much on the subject. Even took a class devoted solely to the war in Vietnam in college and realized just hw pivotal an issue it was. It changed american foreign policy for years to come.
For many of my generation the sixties was where it ws at. We would have given anything to be a part of that experience. Only now, as we are older and some of us busier, we just can't find the spark to get involved like we think we would have back then. The government is doing the same shit some things even worse than bck then and we dont mobilize. For me it's still a beacon of what can happen if nothing is done and tht's scary to think, that the mistakes of history could be ignored that quickly

[libertad]

9. My dad was there and I had a lot of nightmares (I was a little kid)

during that time. I also remember my mother being glued to the news broadcasts. We lost a lot of family friends during the war. My teacher one year was a war protester and she really got us all conflicted. We had the son of a POW at our school, too. It was a confusing time for kids.

[diamond14]

13. Come join us...March 20, 2004...in cities ALL ACROSS AMERICA

March 20, 2004 is the ONE year anniversary of the Iraq WAR....a war that bush* said would last about 6 weeks, and cost about $ 1.2 Billion...bush*'s WAR has now cost over 540 American soldiers lives, over 3000 badly wounded, over 19,000 evacuated from the war theatre for mental health and other reasons...and over $180 BILLION spent....

isn't it time that YOU stood up to stop bush*s WARS.....

join your neighbors, friends, community...meet new people that feel the same as you...dress up, play an instrument, make a sign, wear a badge...join OUR Veterans and Military families...walking in cities all over America...to send OUR message to bush* and his minions....STOP the WAR...bring OUR troops home....no more blood for oil....

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

[bluedog]

14. Nam...painful for me

I had many high school boys drafted in my hometown.or maybe it just seemed that way....One was a young man I was dating and loved very deeply.....I was 18..at the time and thought we would be together forever..well, his mom and dad had to tell me...he was KIA...I never felt such grief in my life...His parents Bless their hearts were stronger than I was.....
No I never will forget Nam and I feel no one will ever forget this so called war......Theres too much pain.....no one hardly speaks of the wounded...the men and women without their arms ,legs, ears or eyes.....Must be bush and co think being wounded means it can be fixed with a "band-Aid"

[Mountainman]

16. The war set me back 10 yrs

I was drafted in 1966. I dropped out of a college I was attending and within a month my draft board sent me my draft notice. I got back from Vietnam in March of 1968 and for the next 10 yrs I practiced self destruction in anyway I could think of. Finally I got it together and finished college and with several more yrs of ups and downs I am leading a normal life.

I see that that war didn't need to happen. I think that had this country worked with Ho Chi Min in the early years we could have had that part of the world as allies instead of enemies. Vietnam was pushed by the hawks just like Iraq was. We need to do more about seeking peaceful means to prevent conflicts. In the end it seems like we always get to the place where we could have been had we tried more diplomacy. We are working with Vietnam now like we could have done in the late 50's and early 60's. All those deaths and all the suffering that the war has caused all of us could have been avoided.

We must continue to stand up against the hawks and let history speak to us and we must learn from our past mistakes.

[x-g.o.p.er]

19. My Dad was killed in Vietnam...

about 6 months before I was born. He was an Army helicopter pilot, and was killed in Dec of 1966. My biological mom ended up putting me up for adoption, and my adoptive parents raised me. My biological mom tracked me down about 7 years ago, and told me why and what happened. I was an Army helicopter pilot at the time. Now I'm an Air Force helicopter pilot. Weird, isn't it? Needless to say, she was bitterly opposed to Vietnam and was "shocked and awed" that I was doing the same thing my biological dad was, and I had never known. I was an Army helicopter pilot at the time, now I'm an Air Force helicopter pilot. Weird, isn't it?

[diamond14]

20. thanks for your service, x-g.o.p.er.....

we need OUR soldiers to spend more time here in America and less time in foreign follies....IMO, it's good to have a conversation on the causes of war, and make HUGE efforts to push toward peaceful solutions...

for so many Vietnam soldiers...and OUR soldiers today...there is little done to alleviate the mental and physical anguish of war...and NOTHING done for the soldiers' families...

can you just imagine the anguish of your mother, upon loosing her husband in a WAR for a LIE? and then, with no viable options to raise you...she was forced to give you up.....

I am certain that many wives of the 500 Soldiers KILLED in Iraq are being forced to make that same decision...shrub gives them some $10,000 and boots them off the base....

BOOT BUSH back to his pig farm....

[Bandit]

22. Vietnam changed me and every person I know who went there.

And not necessarily for the better. I arrived in Vietnam in April of 68 right after the siege of Khe Sahn was broken. My unit 2nd of the 12th Btn 1st Cav was the relief force for the Marines of Khe Sahn and our job was to count bodies. The whole area had been leveled by arc lights. We booby trapped every body we found and poisoned food we left laying around. Americans are sick bastards and quite barbaric. And that was only the beginning. I became completely disillusioned with my government and that hasn't changed in all these years.

[Paranoid_Portlander]

24. Mother wanted me to die in Vietnam.

It would have been a socially acceptable method of getting me killed. However, my draft board thought that I would not be a very good soldier, so I was excused. Sorry, mom.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Jesus, that's terrible. As a mom, I can't imagine this.

Glad you survived. I can't imagine feeling that way about my own child -- it's not a normal feeling. Yet I know that many people, including me, have been betrayed by their own parents. How does it happen to so many?

"Your mum and dad, they fuck you up." -- Phillip Larkin

[Skittles]

25. we must be around the same age, Cally

I didn't understand the lotteries and body counts then and I don't understand them now. I just do not understand why 50,000+ men died for nothing. And now they are suggesting we forget it, while our soldiers are dying daily in Iraq? Hell no I will not get over Viet Nam, not now, not EVER.

[PapaClay]

27. I was lucky

Lost my deferment in late 68, which was OK becasue the only reason I was in school was because it was expected. Had "uneasy" feelings about Nam, but joined the Navy to learn a trade and "see the world".

Got assigned to a carrier and deployed to WESTPAC (Nam) in 70. Gradually started to realize that the war was a clusterfuck and waste of lives and tax dollars. This was reinforced by meeting and talking to sailors who had been in-country (mostly riverine).

One thing that struck me was the never-ending visits by politicians on so-called fact finding missions. I'm sure their stop on our little chunk of heaven was enroute to Hong Kong or Bangkok. Once they screwed up and let me eat lunch (in a group) with my congressman. I asked him what he was doing to bring the troops home. Needless to say it went over like a turd in a punchbowl (we were in the wardroom).

Years later, I read the Pentagon Papers and realized how royally we had been screwed by our own government. Innocence lost. I have not forgotten and I have not forgiven.

I ended up staying for 20. I am proud to have served my country and proud of those who serve today. I also recognize that my service pales in comparison with those who were in the shit. I damn near cried when Clark kicked Cavuto's ass in that interview. The concept of a Combat Vet beating Bush in the election makes me salivate

I am angry (though not surprised) that Americans have allowed our government to, once again, lie their way into another futile, senseless, unwinnable war that serves only to enrich politicians and war profiteers.

I am angry that corporate media whores and right wing shills can hold such sway over the public discourse. O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, and the rest can kiss my patriotic ass.

I am angry that the next president will have such a humongous fucking mess to clean up.

I have voted in every election since 72. I'll vote again this year. I liked Clark but Kerry, Dean, Edwards; any of 'em will do for me. I just want those neocon imperialist theocrats to be just like me...unemployed.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

29. I was a child during Vietnam.

Call me a sucker but I naively assumed we had learned something from that mess. No, we're doing it again. I was flabbergasted that my generation would allow it. What a sobering lesson.

[stevedeshazer]

31. This is a fantastic thread.

I have so many memories of that war that have been revived recently. The memories run from debate in school in 1966 (another poster mentioned a similar experience) to watching the draft lottery (my birthday was #1.)

By virtue of being slightly too young, I didn't serve.

But make no mistake, everyone who grew up in that time was affected in many ways.

The lies of our government influenced us all. It was just as transparent then as it is now.

Election 2004 is not only a referendum on George W. Bush, but a fight for the soul of the country over the Viet Nam War. And I believe a whole lot of other baby boomers feel the same way.

None of my recollections can hold a candle to posts #2 and #4. They were in it. My hat is off to you, you are truly great Americans.

Now get out there and vote.

edited for spelling and grammar...

[DerekG]

33. Changed my view of liberals/Democrats....

My grandfather contracted Agent Orange in that war...I'm still dealing with this so I don't want to talk about it any further.

But reading the history of the war made me realize that Democrats are capable (and have been) of inflicting as much evil upon the world as right-wing conservatives.

Lyndon Johnson was one of ours--the man who sought to end poverty and racism in America. It is one of the bitterest ironies in all of history that this would-be savior would devolve into a mass murderer.

The men and women who could dispel the barrage of horrors facing mankind will have to focus on demilitarization and an end to foreign adventurism--whether they be liberal or conservative.

[Faygo Kid]

34. Kick. These are great posts, and worth visiting.

Not mine. Just read these others. Great stuff.