What does this symbolize?

[JohnLocke]

Keep this kicked, folks.

ON EDIT: By the way, I chose Option 6.

[onebigbadwulf]

1. WASP power- plain and simple.

[Brian Sweat]

20. Treason, Failure and Defeat

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

76. Opposition to Civil Rights and Pro-Segregation

Whatever the flag meant in history is one thing - it was put on the flags of southern states SPECIFICALLY to symbolize opposing desegregation and civil rights, in the 1950s.

[Fleshdancer]

2. well technically....

doesn't it symbolize both?

[PVnRT]

3. NASCAR fans

All of whom, WITHOUT EXCEPTION:

- are racist
- are uneducated
- are fatass slobs who do nothing but drink all day
- will never vote for a Democrat
- beat women and children regularly
- are determined to bring about the end of civilization by watching a sport that uses gas

I think that covers all the bases that I've seen in GD the past couple of days.

[eaprez]

8. ROFL...

...MAO~

[drdigi420]

33. not all, just most

[blurp]

42. Nice to see you're not above over-generalizing about a group of people

Over-generalization about whole groups of people is at the heart of racism.

[PVnRT]

52. Hellloooooo sarcasm

:eyes:

[JohnLocke]

4. Kick

[JohnLocke]

21. Kick

[arewethereyet]

5. OK then, what does this symbolize ?

(I'm following the directions on image posting, hope it works.)

[DebJ]

6. A Conferederate regiments flag or the like?

[JohnLocke]

7. Dunno.

[arewethereyet]

14. technically the winner

its the Confederate Flag, symbol of the Confederate nation (originating in Vicksberg).

As we (hopefully) support the soldier who is following orders and the honor that entails we ought to be angry with the flag the symbolized the ideals that are denegrated (slavery) and not the symbol of esprit de corp that is the Battle Flag.

My point is the foolishness exibited over a design representing somewhat ancient history.

(The original flag of the Confederate States of America, commonly known as the "STARS AND BARS", was approved by the Congress of the Provisional Government of the Confederate States, and first hoisted over the capitol building in Montgomery, Alabama, on the afternoon of the 4th day of March, 1861.)

[JohnLocke]

16. Thanks!

[arewethereyet]

17. You're welcome !

[JohnLocke]

19. I originally had said "Vicksburg, Mississippi" but changed it

I didn't want to look stupid. :) :)

[wuushew]

10. That is the official CSA flag

The other one is just the battle flag.


(On Edit my bad) the CSA flag only had 7 stars

[arewethereyet]

18. communication being intermittant, designs varied widely

http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCs_b.htm

[baldguy]

15. The national flag of the CSA.

The reason the battle flag has become more associated with the Confederacy is because its ILLEGAL to display the national flag. Since its a symbol of treason, and all.

[alwynsw]

27. It's an adaptation of the first CSA flag

This one shows a star for each of the twelve seceeding states. The original was this:

[jpgray]

9. The nation was founded to preserve slavery.

People will take what they want from the flag, but one has to understand that the Confederacy and its constitution had preservation of slavery in a prominent place.

[MissMarple]

29. The economy of the south was based on slavery. Money rules.

Sad, but true.

But they were still wrong. :evilgrin:

[KG]

11. formerly, the battle flag of the army of a breakaway republic.

now the battle flag of the ignorant.

[Cat Atomic]

12. Treason.

If killing U.S. troops doesn't count as treason, I don't know what does.

[veganwitch]

13. white kids trying to play hard...

who would shit their pants if they saw a group of black kids coming down the street.

aka, my high school. we were TF South, the rebels and until 1994 we had the above as the school flag. they got rid of it and a whole bunch of white kids complained.

[Forkboy]

22. Another flamefest thread?

:shrug:

[wuushew]

23. Flamefest...sport or cult?

n/t

[JohnLocke]

24. No flaming here.

:shrug: :shrug:

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[guitar man]

25. A rebel flag

That's what we called them when I was a kid. we had them on our bicycles and later on our pickup trucks. Never really gave it that much thought until recently. when I was a teenager,My black friends used to ride around in my truck with me and I don't think they gave it much thought either. I took them off about 10 years ago. I didn't see any reason to keep them anymore if it was going to cause a fuss.Besides,I think I outgrew them.

[justjones]

31. Like me....

your black friends also probably watched Dukes of Hazard religiously and thought the flag was just a symbol painted on the hood of Bo and Luke Duke's car they drove around in yelling YEEEEHAAWWW!!! It never really occurred to me until I was an adult why the car was named the General Lee and there never were any black characters on the show.....LOL!! Childhood excuses ignorance, and it is bliss:).

[guitar man]

47. We liked these too

Yup,anything we thought stood for rebellion.

[alwynsw]

26. It's the CSA Navy Jack

The CSA Battle flag is this:



Bit of a history buff here. Great Grandpa was in Hillyard's Legion, later absorbed into the 59th Alabama.

Reminder: CSA Navy Jack:



Third official flag of the CSA:

[alwynsw]

28. In the final analysis, it symbolizes history

plain and simple history. A growing pain (albeit quite a painful one) of a developing nation.

Think on it before you flame me. Nations grow much as people do. People of the time didn't have our luxury of instant communications for news, weather, and sports. Nations are merely the children of humankind. All develop differently. We're just on the road to turning out better than most. It's along, arduous process.

Consider also that we're literally the first kid on the block to begin building a nation with a truly multinational populace. Those who are following and adapting and fine tuning our model may do better in the long run. The jury won't be in until the last page of history is written - far into the future.

on edit: Thanks for an educational and thought-provoking post, John.

[stanwyck]

30. At my house, it symbolizes

you don't get the job/or my money if you show up with this flag on your car. I won't buy your firewood, tree service, cleaning service, roofing, whatever. So. I you're a contractor looking for work, lose the flag. (and I live in Atlanta where there are way too many of these stupid flags. Thank you very much, Sonny Perdue).

[drdigi420]

36. excellent! i do the same

and im a 4th generation atlanta native

rednecks piss me off because they make southerners look bad

[bobbyboucher]

32. I think it's the Confederate Navy Jack.

No?

[MissMarple]

35. LOL, battleflags both?

.

[drdigi420]

34. it stands for ignorance

[doc03]

37. Southerners Is there any truth to this

A few days ago on one of the wing-nut radio shows a caller said that the X stood for the opposition to tax on cotton. He claims the Civil War was not about slavery just about the tax imposed on cotton. In other words he claims it represents the Conservative movements opposition to taxes. This sounds like right wing BS to me.

[Dhalgren]

62. Your instinct is right - total BS!

Many southerners like to think that the War was about states rights, but then, just as now, that was a code word for racism.

[mgc1961]

81. Probably bullshit.

Unfortunately, there are great many people who look for reasons to varnish the underlying truth of their intent. Yes, the war was about slavery, but it's also true that motivation for participants in the conflict varied widely. So, on one level there may be some truth to that claim.

Personally, I come from a long southern linage though I didn't grow up in the south. When it comes up in conversation I tell people I had family members that fought in both armies: The Army of Tennessee and the Army of Northern Virginia. :-)

As unsympathetic as may be to the decendents of former slaves, the flag is not by definition an endorsement of slavery or racism although it has been adopted for that purpose just as the Republican party adopts code words which subtly endorse exclusive and/or racist policies in communities around the country.

[Kickin_Donkey]

38. To me, it symbolizes ...

in-your-face racism.

I'm beginning to see a few more of these images in Northern California. It's disturbing.

But it's probably more complicated than a pure expression of hate. Where I live, there's a junkyard/recycling center that flies about eight of these flags on the roof. I decided to give that place a wide berth in my mind.

But a couple of days ago, I was eating lunch across the street from that place ... and one of the employees was an African American man. Now, would the owner hire such a man (in an area where the unemployment rate is one of the highest in the nation) if he hated blacks so much? Go figure.

[bleedingheart]

53. it means the same thing in PA... its a symbol of hate

[Kickin_Donkey]

39. To me, it symbolizes ...

in-your-face racism.

I'm beginning to see a few more of these images in Northern California. It's disturbing.

But it's probably more complicated than a pure expression of hate. Where I live, there's a junkyard/recycling center that flies about eight of these flags on the roof. I decided to give that place a wide berth in my mind.

But a couple of days ago, I was eating lunch across the street from that place ... and one of the employees was an African American man. Now, would the owner hire such a man (in an area where the unemployment rate is one of the highest in the nation) if he hated blacks so much? Go figure.

[locustfist76]

40. The Cherokee

The Cherokee saw this as their salvation.

[G_j]

43. explanation?

link? ..the majority of the Cherokee had been moved to Ok. BTW, (trail of tears)

[locustfist76]

45. Not in WNC

In Western North Carolina, a small group of Cherokee were allowed to thanks to the bravery of a Cherokee man named Tsali. Anyway, the Cherokee saw the CSA as their best chance of survival. You have to also keep in mind that many atrocities occurred to Cherokee under the banner of the American flag. Land was stolen, treaties were broken, and thousands died because of the US gov't. You'll still see many Confederate flags flying in Cherokee, NC. Are the Cherokee racist for flying the Confederate battle flag? They probably see the American flag like blacks do the Confederate Flag. Oh, by the way a band of Cherokee soldiers named Thomas Legion's were the last to surrender during the Civil War. Another interesting point that many don't know is that the Cherokee actually had slaves as well.Take that for what you will. I suggest you study this on your own and come up with your own conclusion.

[G_j]

46. yes I'm aware of this

I live near Cherokee in WNC.
you did say THE Cherokee though, does this include the Oklahoma band?. I would be interested in a link that is specific to this issue, if you have one.


edit: also regarding, "They probably see the American flag like blacks do the Confederate Flag. "

how is that?

[locustfist76]

49. To be honest

To be honest with you, I don't know too much about the Western Tribe. I grew up in Bryson City, NC which is only a few miles from Cherokee. I also have Cherokee blood from both sides of my family. They have a very rich but sad history. I haven't found a good link that tells the real history, just smalled tidbits. But just like the reasons for the war, the issues among the Cherokee were very complex. Just like many Southerns, the Cherokee were split on which side to choose. Some stayed loyal to the Union while others chose to fight for the Confederacy.

These links are okay, the seem abit more revisionist type history though.
http://rebelcherokee.tripod.com/intro.html
http://cherokeehistory.com/
http://mytwobeadsworth.com/Cherokeeflag2503.html
http://www.rootsweb.com/~itcivwar/civilind.htm

[G_j]

51. thanks

I appreciate you takng the time. I will check out the links.
I find this history interesting but yes especially very sad. Most of what I've read on this comes from a book called the "Trail of Tears" which I read a long time ago (don't remember the author) and "Burry my Heart At Wounded Knee"

BTW, Bryson City is a very pretty place. I'm in Asheville.

[locustfist76]

65. Asheville

I spent half my teenage years in Asheville. Friday nights I played football, Saturday was for a trip to Asheville (typically the mall), and Sunday was for Church. Life was much simpler it seemed. Asheville is cool place, especially Boston's Pizza. I'm mine MD right now, could you send me up a stromboli.

[Taeger]

41. It represents ...

I represents poor white southerners being tricked into defending an institution that fundamentally hurt them. It represents a banner under which many proud southern families buried their honorable dead. A soldier who serves proudly is entitled to a respectful burial under the banner of his choice.

I think the confederate banner needs to be redeemed. It should stand for Southerners finally casting off the shackles that the Southern aristocracy placed on their minds. It should represent the eventual realization that poor white folk and poor black folk have essentially the same problems. They've been tricked into mutual hate and suspicion by a class of individuals who want nothing more than power, influence and luxury.

The confederate banner CAN be redeemed.

[guitar man]

48. hmmm.....

"represents poor white southerners being tricked into defending an institution that fundamentally hurt them."

Sounds a lot like the Republican party.

[bleedingheart]

57. I think you touched on the primary issue in your post

people hate to be tricked into anything and as anyone knows admitting you are wrong is hard to do...

When an entire group of people is tricked into fighting for a cause and they suffer great losses and they end up losing only to find out that perhaps they weren't fighting for a good reason...it becomes even harder to say "I was wrong"..

So in 1920 when Joey is sitting on grandpa's lap and he is reciting tales of the war he isn't going to say that he had been duped into losing a leg for the right of rich men to take slaves into free territories... he is going to embellish it and make it something more...and the tale only grows bigger and is embellished further...until today Joey's grandkids are talking about the "old south" with affection and mourning great great great grandpa's sacrifice for the "Cause"

[aldian159]

44. Treason, not savagry

I never associated it with slavery, just with the biggest group of traitors in American history.

[dbt]

50. It stands for one more issue that will never be resolved,

the same as guns, abortions, religion and/or homosexuality. In other words, an energy drain.

:freak:
dbt

[waywest]

54. The banner of a vanquished nation that still flies.

An embarrasment.

[silverlib]

55. Great post and responses...

I've been told by my Republican coworkers that it stands for State's rights and that was the basis of the Civil War.

It's interesting to me that State's rights are only respected until "moral" issues evolve, like the rights of gays and women's rights.

I, too, want do business with an establishment of individual carrying this symbol.

[ComerPerro]

56. You know, my opinion of the South in the Civil War has completely changed

Ever since Bush and his assholes took over. I have a new respect for the idea of rebellion, and I can see how some people would take pride in that flag.

[YNGW]

58. Pride In Dixie

To a true Southerner, that's all the flag represents. It's a flag representing all who were born and/or raised in the South, but I would say mainly both born and raised. It has never been a racial thing for me and most others I know. I'm not aware of people who are still fighting the Civil War (though their might be a few; very, very few), so that's a myth.

Since it's often framed in terms of race, let me put it this way; If I'm white and you're black and we're both born and raised in the South, I have more in common with you than I do with some white person from the North, because we were raised up under traditional Southern upbringing, we're from the same place, we're practically kin folk. Really, that's how it's viewed.

It's like if two Russians are in the USA, though one might be from Eastern Russia and another from Western Russia, they have a bond because of who they are.

Either you understand it the way I mean it or you don't. Those who don't understand or want to make something out of it we don't mean, we really don't pay them a lot of attention. It's a Southern thing.

[enki23]

59. it stands for everything that's fucked up about the south

a swastika might stand for "pride in germany" for some, but people the world over would be rightly angry at any group of assholes who chose to fly it. this is a simple, direct, and completely valid analogy. there is a reason you never see a black person sporting it.

southerners can find another symbol. that one's forever tainted. this is a very clear-cut issue, and you are entirely on the wrong side of it. nothing more needs to be said.

[YNGW]

61. South

>there is a reason you never see a black person sporting it.

I know blacks who sport it. The local leader of the NAACP walked the streets in this area for months carrying the flag. To them it's heritage, not hate.

See, you don't get to speak for everyone. Some understand it's just a symbol for being from the South, not some sign hoping slavery will return.

And like I said, you either understand it, or you don't. Those who don't, don't matter.

>southerners can find another symbol.

No one asked you. We'll do what we damn well please. If you don't like it, tough.

[enki23]

75. tough?

"No one asked you. We'll do what we damn well please. If you don't like it, tough."

actually, the person who started the thread *did* ask me. he asked all of us. you don't like that? tough.

your anecdotal claim of some "blacks who sport it" is unconvincing, considering the overwhelming evidence that southern african-americans are opposed to it and all it symbolizes. you can pretend the battles over flying it at state offices and political centers doesn't exist, and you can pretend the sharp divisions in those battles along racial lines don't exist. but you're just pretending. or you're too ignorant to notice.

and you don't get off on the "you either understand it, or you don't" bullshit. not without a fight. symbols have meaning outside your insular world. the battle flag of the southern rebellion is about "heritage" alright. it's about a heritage of pain, of suffering, of murder, of death. it's a heritage of slavery, of bigotry. a heritage of white privilege, of black subjugation. it's a tainted symbol, an unnecessary reminder of a worse time.

and btw, i live in baton rouge. i get to see it every day, in my neighbors windows, on pickup trucks. it often goes along with "bush/cheney" signs, and not by mere coincidence. don't like that guilt by association? too bad. the associations are made directly, and unashamedly by the people who fly it. it's your crowd, you keep it. you're known by it, implicated by it.

and you can keep it. just don't be surprised when you're identified with it. you are allowed to wear white robes with pointy masks if you like too. that, too, is a symbol of southern "heritage." heritage doesn't make a symbol a good one, and not all heritages are something to be proud of.

[YNGW]

79. Like I said...

.... no one's going to change what they know to be the truth over your opinion. I know what it stands for to me. I know what it stands for to many others Southerners, and it has nothing to do with hate. If you can't accept that, it's not our problem. Like everything else in life, we'll continue to ignore people like you who want to make issues where there are none, and you'll just have to sit there and stew.

[enki23]

82. that would be fine, except that i'm not the only one

and your flippant "i don't care what you think" attitude doesn't really just apply to just me. i don't matter, not on my own. i don't pretend to. but if you ever want to lose the "ignorant racists" view of the south, it might be wise not to live up to the stereotypes. because i'm hardly alone. we wouldn't be discussing the issue here if i were.

[YNGW]

83. Reply

>but if you ever want to lose the "ignorant racists" view of the south, it might be wise not to live up to the stereotypes.

People are going to think what they want to anyway. If people want to stereotype Southerns as "ignorant racists", I don't care. It's their problem and I'm not going to change my life based upon a bunch of people who don't care to know or who would rather 'suppose' than ask want to believe.

[enki23]

87. i live in the south

and the biggest problem i see with the "ignorant racist" stereotype, is that it's pretty much right.

[Skittles]

60. it stands for HATE

pure and simple HATE

[locustfist76]

66. The Cross

The ( burning)Cross was used by the Klan to intimadate blacks. It was used to send a warning that blacks were not wanted. Many horrible acts occurred with the cross blazing a light to heaven. Does that make the holy cross of Christ hateful? Christ said this was the most important commandment of all "Love God, love your neighbor, and love yourself." Just because some take a symbol and use it incorrectly, doesn't make it a hateful symbol. Don't you think many native americans are offended by the American flag? Is it a symbol of hate?

[ieoeja]

68. The Scots

This is modelled off the St Andrews Cross used by the Scottish. The Scots used a burning cross to call everyone to arms. Scottish influence in the South led to its incorporation in a Confederate battle flag.

After the Civil War a segment of the Southern population continued using this flag to demonstrate their anti-American sympathies. Over time this banner was picked up as a symbol of challenging authority by people on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line.

When the Civil Rights movement exploded on the American scene, the banner was born anew to demonstrate opposition to Civil Rights, i.e. as a symbol of racism. Today there are undoubtedly people who honestly wish to restore the anti-American meaning of the flag as opposed to the anti-Civil Rights meaning. Unfortunately, they naively provide legitimate ("hatred of the United States" legitimizes the banner?) cover for the larger segment who wish to fly it for racist purposes.

[Skittles]

71. for the record

I am agnostic and don't think much of the symbol of the cross, either

[shanti]

84. i agree

to me, it stands for hate and racism. i'm sure it means other things to other people, but in my frame of reference, it isn't seen in a positive way.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

63. it stands for what ever you want it to

to delcare that you "know" what this symbol means to everyone or should mean to everyone is kind of naive. i am not a big fan of the flag myself, but i can understand why people would cling to this just as they cling to other frivilous things. to come out and say "this is a hate flag and you are a hater for displaying it" is not going to change the mind of a person who feels that the flag some how symbolises their heritage.

[TacticalPeek]

64. Proof that the past is not dead, its not even past.

And unfortunately any honor that imbued this symbol was long ago supplanted by the yahoos who desecrate it with impunity, probably beyond the point of redemption.


But we did try:



Southern Student Organizing Committee, 1965 —

[CalebHayes]

67. evil

[JohnLocke]

69. Kick

[hlthe2b]

70. Meaning in the eye of the beholder, I guess:

to many Southerners, I believe it does represent Southern Pride and Heritage. To some who wish to exploit it as a racist symbol, it means just that. For me, it is a remnant of history and I'd dearly love to retire it to museums and historical purposes, so that we might all move on to the future. However, I don't buy into the theory that all who defend it are overt racists. I don't agree with them and would love to change their minds, but I think we need to work on replacing it as a symbol of the South, while not attacking ALL southerners in the process.

I am by the way, a committed Westerner, but have lived enough years in the deep South to see it in all its shades and subtleties...

[BiggJawn]

72. Redneck Stupidity.

I find it impossible to take anyone who sports this emblem on his vehicle, clothing, or abode seriously.
But then, I'm one of those "Dam Lubrul Ele...Eli...Wunnathem fellers think their shit don't stink guys..."

And the WORST Cynic YOU will ever meet.

[brainwashed_youth]

73. As A Southerner

it represents my heritage. I was raised around this flag, but to me and my family it represented our history, not racism. And, on a more interesting note, I found out that I had ancestors who fought in the Confederate Army, so I have very deep Southern roots. I can understand why people think it represents slavery and they're entitled to that opinion. Just like the guy who posted here, i grew up waving that flag and luving it, but I outgrew it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. A lot of things.

Depends on where you're looking at it from. To blacks, it symbolises oppression, bondage and hatred. To Northerners, treason. To Southerners (or at least those whose ancestors rallied to, fought under, and died for that banner) it symbolises a part of their history and heritage which they choose to recognise and honour. There is no one right answer; it is all a matter of perspective. Those who think that their opinion is the only correct and appropriate one are, I'm afraid, quite wrong.

[PopSixSquish]

78. Mr. Jerusalem....

may I just say that your last two sentences are perhaps the best response to this issue that I have ever heard.

My 11th grade American History teacher began his class with the following:

"There is no such thing as American History, there is American History according to...Events happen, how you view them depends on your perspective, how they are written about depends on the same. That is what we will discuss this year"

I have never forgotten this and think it's good advice for everyone when discussing these "hot" issues.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

77. Slavery, Bigotry, Treason, and Ignorance!

:puke:

The confederate flag, or should I say confederate "RAG" is
toilet paper to me!


again.........:puke:

[slackmaster]

80. How about this one?

How many people think "Taxation without representation" when they see it?

[Mobius]

85. Is that Canada?

:dunce:

[VOX]

86. It's part of our American history, part of our shared experience...

Good and bad. For Southerners, there was a time when this flag was a symbol of valor and unit pride. For Northerners (at the time), it was a symbol of the enemy on the battlefield.

This would change over time.

Novelist-historian Shelby Foote (a native Mississipian) notes that the Confederate battle flag has been "co-opted by yahoos," and turned into something vile. Its transformation over time has been indelible. The Confederate battle flag has been deliberately used with intent to communicate a very specific message, one that is antithetical to the inclusiveness set forth in American ideals.

Interestingly, look at c.1920s photographs of public Klan rallies -- are they waving the Confederate battle flag? No, they are bearing the flag of the United States, the Stars and Stripes.

[LSdemocrat]

88. Treason, nothing more, nothing less

It is the flag of a traitorous rebellion against the United States.