The real issue isn't Bush AWOL, it's the influence to get into the Gua

[Faygo Kid]

Then, after he leapfrogged 500 or so to get the cushy slot, he failed to show up even for that easy duty, while kids from less influential families (almost everybody) got shot up. If I were the Dems, I would stress that fact, get the names of those GWB "bumped" thanks to Daddy's influence, and see if any of those names are on the Wall in DC. If so, they gave their lives so spoiled boy Bush could get in and then shirk even that duty.

[Bunny]

1. Your point is well taken.

I could almost accept that he got in the Guard through his father's influence, if he had at least FULFILLED HIS COMMITTMENT!!!!!! The idea that he used his influence to get in the Guard, and then simply QUIT SHOWING UP, is what kills me. Honestly, I'd call this man a turd, but that would be unfair to turds. At least turds have a purpose.

[unblock]

2. mmm, no.

lots of people pulled strings do get cozy assignments or avoid it entirely; and, while people resent it, especially those who actually went to vietnam, it's not exactly unexpected.

i think the real problem is that whatever duty he DID sign up for, he clearly shirked.

absenteeism, missing physicals, and getting grounded as a pilot are shameful, especially for a now 'war president'.


where his family influence turly IS shameful is in his getting an honorable discharge and a relatively clean record despite behavior that would get anyone else court-martialed.

THAT's the truly horrible part.

[papau]

14. If you cheat to get into the Guard, at least get a waiver of the arrest!

you'd think they want a paper trail that stood up = my guess is that he was already drafted - and they had no time to get the required waiver of the arrest.

In any case, with out the waiver, someone broke the law!

[Imalittleteapot]

3. The real issue is lies, hiding records, cover-up.

However, the real issue for my Mom (a Bush supporter) is privileged Bush getting out of Nam via GHWB's influence. My dad was a WWII Marine and brother was in Vietnam. She says she won't vote for Bush again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whatever the reason, all have merit.

[delhurgo]

4. Right. The important point is he used The Guard to "avoid combat".

Thats what average people will respond negatively to, not all this about him leaving early and missing however many months. I'm sure theres something to all that, but its too complicated for people to understand. What they easily understand though is that Bush used The Guard because he was a coward and wanted to avoid combat, and that others who were less fortunate were unable to do the same - and on top of that many died as a result. I don't mean to disparage those who were conscientious objectors either. They were true to their beliefs. Bush wasn't; he was a coward - it's that simple.

[Taeger]

9. A LOT of people were trying to avoid combat

I don't think there is any shame in trying to avoid combat. But you have to do it with honor and integrity.

Bush (like Quayle) got his slot on the sly. He got preferential treatment. AND THEN, he fucked it all up. Another man with a flight score HIGHER than 25 would have done a better job in that slot.

He received an honorable discharge for DIShonorable service. Had he done his duty properly (as we assume Quayle did) it wouldn't be nearly as big as an issue.


I honestly doubt that Bush was a good pilot. I think that the base command KNEW that politics was Bush Jr's future and that they must provide him with a good record, if they wanted to get their next promotion. From reports, he was a complete fuckup when he tried to go "joyriding" in a Cessna.

There is a REASON that the Army gives candidates tests. They are predictors of how well that candidate will do in the position. Based on available evidence, I seriously DOUBT that George W was even a decent pilot.

[delhurgo]

12. I just think getting into all this minute detail about hours missed, ...

....if he was a good pilot or not, etc... is too complicated to be very beneficial politically. By all means bring out the whole truth, the more the better. But when democrats are on tv, as I just witnessed with Crossfire, they need to make sure to bring up the point that Bush used the Guard to avoid combat. Thats something that sticks and which people can easily understand. Carville didn't do that, at least not to my satisfaction. He kept goin on and on about whether Bush got out early or not. I doubt many people care about that. I'm just saying when your limited with time, and need a sound bite, make sure you mention that Bush purposely avoided combat. It pales woefully to what Kerry did.

[Trajan]

5. We should not be asked ...

to lessen our rhetoric against Bush ...

Bring EVERYTHING to bear on the GOP/Bush numbskulls wh are fucking up our nation ...

[TacticalPeek]

6. Amazing info in comment thread at Eschaton, re Poppy and 'influence':

Check this out: one of Poppy Bush's surrogates dared to criticize Lloyd Bentsen for using
political influence to get his son into TANG!! The hypocrisy! The mind reels!

Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: TUE 08/23/88
Section: A
Page: 8
Edition: 2 STAR

Campaign '88/Military charges outrage Democrats

Los Angeles Times


ANDOVER, Mass. - Democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis and his running
mate, Sen. Lloyd Bentsen , Monday rebutted Republican charges about their
relationships with the military services.

Dukakis angrily responded to a Republican congressman's charge that he had used
student deferments to avoid military service during the Korean War, saying, "I served
my country proudly."

Spokesmen for Bentsen accused Republicans of a "dirty trick" after a senior adviser to
Vice President George Bush accused the senator of helping his son get into the National
Guard .

Bentsen 's son, Lloyd Bentsen III, said he was "absolutely furious" about the charge,
which New Hampshire Gov. John Sununu, co-chairman of Bush 's campaign, made
Sunday in a television interview.

...

Dukakis also criticized Sununu's charge that Bentsen had used his connections to help
his son in getting into the Texas National Guard . Sununu's charge, made on ABC-TV's
"This Week With David Brinkley," was "unfortunate and inaccurate," Dukakis said.

The younger Bentsen , now a venture capitalist in Houston, used stronger words, calling
Sununu "a desperate man grasping for straws."

The younger Bentsen served in the 147th Fighter Group of the Texas National Guard
along with George W. Bush , the vice president's son. Both men enlisted in the late
spring of 1968. At the time, the senior Bush was a congressman, while the senior
Bentsen was a private businessman.

According to the younger Bentsen , he got into the Guard as a result of a chance
meeting at a party with the then-commander of the 147th Fighter Group, Brig. Gen.
Walter "Buck" Staudt. Bentsen had recently graduated from Stanford University
business school and Staudt was looking for a financial officer for his unit.

"There wasn't any hanky-panky that went on there," Staudt said from his Seguin home.

Both the younger Bentsen and Jack DeVore, spokesman for Sen. Bentsen , vehemently
denied that the senator had any advance knowledge of the Guard opening or made any
calls to help his son get it.

"What Sununu said was an outrage," DeVore said. "It's just a dirty trick, and there's no
way of knowing what stunt they'll pull next."

71077345 | Email | Homepage | 02.16.04 - 11:34 am | #

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_02_15_atrios_archive.html#107694082952870952


------

Shameless, utterly shameless.

[Taeger]

7. A couple of issues

First, he was absent for a LONG time. He didn't fullfill his duty. He had NO EXCUSE for 'dropping' piloting. He signed a sworn oath that he'd do his duty. He failed that oath.

Second, he was SUSPENDED from duty because he failed to take a physical. It's not as if he had to take the LSAT or something. All he had to do is show up, get his nuts squeezed, and potentially piss in a cup.

There lies the REAL EXPLOSIVE part of the issue. Bush previously refused to DENY that he did Cocaine. Instead they made some BS statement about it not applying do to statues of limitation. That meant that sometime before 1974, Bush did cocaine.

Finally, there is an integrity issue. Bush is asking tens of thousands of guardsmen to serve 365+ days in a combat zone. This is time away from the family and sometimes their businesses. Additionally, he has placed stop loss orders to prevent guardsmen who HAVE fullfilled their contract from leaving the guard.

You see??? Bush couldn't even do his 1 weekend a month and he's asking these guys to pull 14 month rotations in a combat zone. Do you see the problem with integrity????

There are a LOT of guardsmen who go to college. They all find a way to get to training. Why couldn't Bush just FLY back to Texas once a month. He trained on a Cessna, he could just RENT the plane (actually, his daddy could easily BUY him one) and fly back for his monthly duty from Alabama.

Same thing goes for business school. There is ZERO reason that George W needed an early withdrawal in order to do his graduate studies. From all reports, he wasn't a graduate assistant. He was JUST a student. He could easily have FLEW HIMSELF back to Houston to do his training.

We are talking after all about a man who planned to make FLIGHT a lifelong pursuit. From reports, the last time he flew a plane, he nearly killed his passengers.

Finally, there is the whole issue of preferred treatment. He got IN on preferred treatment. He was bumped to the front of the line. He got his ASSIGNMENT based on preferred treatment. He scored the lowest possible grade on the qualification exam. Surely, there were other candidates who scored higher than 25 on the pilots exam (and 50 on their Navigation exam).

He got his COMMISION on the basis of preferred treatment. He didn't go through an Academy, OCS or ROTC. There was no merit to promoting him to 2nd Lieutenant. Then after a year, he was promoted to 1ST LIEUTENANT!!!!!! That was DEFINITELY preferential treatment.

After he FAILED to take a flight physical, he wasn't court martialed. That was preferential treatment. Uncle Sam doesn't waste millions on training pilots so they can just "drop out". He failed to show for over a month AFTER his transfer request was denied. Then, he got a transfer based on preferential treatment.

THEN, after getting such sweetheart preferential treatment, he failed to show up for his monthly meeting. He was subsequently transferred to ARF for some reason and credited with "gratuitous service". He wasn't court martialed, nor was he made available for the draft.

Instead, the Army granted a request for EARLY DEPARTURE!!!!!!! Who believes that wasn't preferential treatment. If they do, they're fucking nuts. He was granted an honorable discharge despite failing to uphold his oath to serve his one weekend a month and 2 weeks a year as a pilot. He NEVER even took another physical.

Had any "regular" person done this, he would have been court martialed. It is not the behavior of a "1st Lieutenant". It is NOT honorable. It is not remotely appropriate to take another persons slot in the guard and THEN FUCK IT UP!!!!!

No, this issue has REAL legs when it concerns someone who talks at length about "honor and integrity". The man has NEITHER!!!!!

[TacticalPeek]

10. "He scored the lowest possible grade on the qualification exam."

Let me clarify that:

"He scored exactly the lowest possible grade on the qualification exam."


Figure the odds.

[Skittles]

8. no, that is not the issue

rich kids do this, that is not gonna change. The real problem was not that he used daddy's influence to get in but that HE DIDN'T SERVE EVEN AFTER HE GOT SPECIAL TREATMENT.

[Faygo Kid]

15. You get my point

You may have misread my post, or just put it more succinctly: He uses Daddy's influence to get in, then doesn't serve honorably (to put it mildly). Maybe he could get away with it, if he was just another politician, or a president restrained in his use of force - but he is an ignoramus more than happy to feed other people's kids into the sausage grinder of an ignoble and immoral war, with more likely in a second term (please God, no).

[ComerPerro]

11. No, its both. But AWOL is the worst part of it

Combine the two.

He used his connections to get an easy way out of Vietnam that most people couldn't have access to, and he was too lazy/drunk/coked-up/arrogant/whatever to show up even for that.

[sangha]

13. This issue - Why no medical exam?

According to the NY Times, Bush* spokesperson says Bush* didn't take the medical exam because Bush* decided it was not needed. Since when do individual service members decide which orders are necesary and which can be ignored?

Bush Acts Against Critics on Guard Records and 9/11
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/14/politics/14BUSH.html

"The White House also more definitively explained than it has in the past why Mr. Bush skipped a 1972 National Guard medical exam, which has been a source of enormous speculation from Mr. Bush's critics, who have suggested he did so because drug testing was introduced around that time.

The records show that Mr. Bush was suspended from flying beginning Aug. 1, 1972 because he failed to take the exam. His last flight exam was on May 15, 1971.

Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush missed the exam because he felt there was no reason to take it. Mr. Bush, he said, had begun his training in 1968 with the Air National Guard in Texas, where he flew a fighter jet, the F-102. When he moved to Alabama in 1972 to work in the Senate campaign of a friend of his father, Mr. Bush transferred to an Alabama unit of the Guard that did not fly the same plane. Because there was no way Mr. Bush could fly planes in Alabama, Mr. Bartlett said, he did not bother to report for the medical exam. "

[JackRiddler]

16. The real issue is not the influence either

It's the COCAINE BUST, the ARREST, and the "COMMUNITY SERVICE" (in lieu of the usual punishment).

(Anyone got the Helen Thomas/McClellan link handy?)

It's that behavior coming from the Supremo of a regime that sprays poison on coca farmers in Colombia, imprisons millions for a Drug War, and buys Super Bowl ads claiming drug users support terrorism.

[Doctor_J]

17. Au contraire

the influence is a story, of course, but I maintain that the AWOL is a symptom of * living in a make-believe world.

He pretends to be a warrior, though he dodged military service.

He pretends to be a "CEO President", though his business ventures all involved either loads of sweetheart deals and corruption, or failure.

He pretends to be a man of God, though he's petty, vindictive, elitist, and curses like a sailor.

He pretends to be a statesman, though he's the least-literate of any president, and cannot speak at all without a teleprompter.

Basically his entire life is made up.

[TacticalPeek]

20. "Basically his entire life is made up." A bad makeup job on the getover.

"...I'm basically a media creation. I've never done anything."

Dubya, 1989


http://www.dubyaspeak.com/himself.shtml

[ProfessorGAC]

18. I Agree

No matter how much paperwork magically appears, the questions that need to be hammered are all based on HOW!

How did he get into the Guard when there was such a long waiting list?
How did he qualify to take the FAST?
How did he get into flight school after scoring a 25 on the FAST?
How did he get permission to just change postings?
How did he get away with deciding, on his own, not to take his physical?
How did he think he would qualify for Vietnam when he was flying an obsolete jet and had no training or certs on those being used there? (Is he just that dumb?)
How did he get the equivalent of a student deferrment 4 years after the fact?

No matter how much documentation they turn up, that will not answer just how a guy who is supposed to be returning honor and integrity to the White House dodged Vietnam because people had their hands on the strings of power. Not much honor, not much integrity in that.
The Professor

[LeahMira]

19. All of these approaches make sense...

... but for me the issue is that Bush pretended to be all the good, strong, brave, patriotic things that we Americans generally used to think of as qualities possessed by military people while at the same time he was not man enough to actually walk the walk. He accepted the credentials and the perks quite cheerfully, but he didn't do the work to earn them.

When I think of the young men who served in combat, the young men who served at home in the Guard, the young men who went to Canada as exiles, the young men who went to jail rather than serve, and all the young men who made their choices and were manly and honorable enough to accept the consequences of their choices... and then I think of a wimp who was afraid not to serve but "made arrangements" to get credit as if he had served... such a wimp has no place leading the country he didn't have any time for when he was young.