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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 08:54 AM
Original message
Let's quit prefacing the debate with "Saddam was an Evil Guy"...
EVERY SINGLE TIME I hear a debate between a War Lover and a War Hater, the War Hater has to start out by expressing their disdain for Saddam Hussein and that they're glad he's gone.

The time of having to express that before the debate is now over. It's obvious that Iraq is and will be far worse without Hussein than with him. Removing Hussein was and will be the biggest blunder in U.S history. It has opened a can of infected worms that has made the Middle East far more dangerous than ever before. Ain't it great that soon we will soon have two Ayotollah's in the middle of the Midle East?...Ain't it great that the Kurds, the Suuni's and the Bath party in Iraq are a little pissed that this might happen?

AND ain't it fucking great that there's a pretty good chance that later in the year there will be Civil War in Iraq after Dubya and the Neo-Cons cut and run just in time for the election? BTW: This is for all my ain't it greats for those of you who think I think it's great. :eyeroll:

So here's the question... And we have to answer honestly... Are we better off and are we safer without Saddman hussein in power?
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. as a war hater my first comment is that Saddam Hussein is not
even a factor in the equation. If he was a factor then the US wouldn't have supported the House of Saud, Islam Karimov, Álvaro Uribe, and the scores upon scores of human trash in this world.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Yes, lets begin with "Saddam, a former ally of the Reagan/Bush adm."
That's a more stunning beginning.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Cut and run?
I'd be very surprised if we're not there sixty years from now...look at Germany and Japan.

ONLY the oil men are better off...NOT the people here or in Iraq.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. we are as safe as at anytime and will be (feel) safer with Bush gone
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 09:11 AM by Marianne
You are correct in your observation I think.

Saddam was evil, so it was fine that we got rid of him--I am glad he is gone--the world is better without him and so are the people of Iraq--so goes the logic--but I am against the war. so goes the conventional logic.

Saddam was so evil that we supported him at one time, and he has not changed since then. Saddam was so evil that we allowed him to survive after Gulf War I. Saddam did not change--we spent more than ten years inspecting every little nook and cranny, bombing targets in the no fly zone, installing spies throughout his country, and sanctioning vital needs of his people, causing the deaths of 500,000 children and we are finally glad he is gone now because he was evil and a threat to the US and Israel--actually he is not gone, physically, but we have chosen to keep him propped up so as not to lose the politcal advantage of having people see his face and connecting it to the worst evil man ever born to woman, anyone can imagine'

Obviously, the Iraqi people are NOT better off and civil war is looming . That is the result of Bush's lack of foresight or perhaps even lack of his continued interest. Halliburton is entrenched in Iraqi oil fields, as well as hundreds of other American corporations--like everything he has done in his life, according to reports, he loses interest once the thrill of himself being chief CEO and honcho, and he simply deserts the project and tosses it aside in favor of the next project that allows him to look as if he has intelligence and is in charge. It is typical of a punk like Bush.


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kclown Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Check you assumptions!
Imagine yourself as a citizen of Iran, then repeat your 2nd
para with "Bush" in place of "Saddam". 
Would an invasion of the U.S. by Iran be justified?

Bush is president of the U.S., not the world.  The question
going begging is "Are the people of the U.S. better
off?"  For at least 160k in uniform, the answer is a
resounding no.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I think you did not understand my irony
I apologize for not making it clearer that I was mimicking those that Trumad decsribes--although I did say he was right.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. Agreed, and I'm soooooo sick of...
Repukes hitting me with this black & white bullshit like, "Just answer yes or no, is the world a better place with Saddam in power, or would you rather have him back."

Well spanky, the world don't work quite that way. First of all, you're asking me if the ends justify the means. The answer there is no. You can't justify 500+ American lives by simply saying Saddam was an evil dictator. Sure he was, but that doesn't make this right. Is the world a better place? I can't say that it is. The violence and lack of stability over there right now, can't be remedied by opening a couple of schools and hospitals.

We have one of the most skilled special forces in the entire world. I've known many of these guys in my time. My uncle himself was SF for 27 years in the Army. There is no doubt in my mind that the removal of Saddam from power (no assassination) could have been accomplished without the loss of one American life. But then George wouldn't have his war. I think they severly "misunderestimated" the amount of support they'd have for this war 18 months after the invasion.
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. what you are suggesting is questionable at best,sorry
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 10:45 AM by Ardee
Firstly I hope that assassination as a tool of foreign policy is not something you support in reality.Despite your negation of that tool what alternative would have sufficed to remove Hussein using Special Forces?

Secondly ,it is important to continue to note what an evil little shit Hussein was if only to make our alliance with him for so very long, our support of his regime with weapons and money a talking point to denigrate our entire philosophy as a nation.

We have, for a very long time, installed such evil in power around the world, for the sole purpose of ensuring the stability of that nation for our economic investments.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Trumad. I'm willing to get flamed for saying it, but I've always thought
that the american press perpetrated one of the greatest examples of demonization the world has ever seen as regards Saddam Hussein.

I too am sick to death of the excuse that Saddam was a "bad guy." We flat out attacked and captured a sovereign leader of another country, killed his sons, and are murdering Iraqis in our attempt to remake them as a colony.

Every time I hear the phrase "mass graves" I cringe. I wonder whether it has occurred to anyone that somebody else is causing mass graves now and there's more mass than ever.

It's one of the greatest propaganda coups in history, making Saddam out to be as bad as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. It may have been bad for Iraqis under Saddam, but I don't think he was conducting mass searches, roadblocks, or killing as many Iraqis as we are now doing.

Why do people act like if a person has been painted as a "bad guy", that he's stupid or something? Saddam has more brains in his little fingernail than Bush will ever hope to have. Now watch somebody say if it were up to me, "the mass graves would still be filling up".

No, If it were up to me, we would have given the inspectors the time they asked for, and NOT kicked them out. Sorry if that means in hindsight, we could have never attacked Iraq.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Saddam WAS brutal to those he saw as political enemies...
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 09:54 AM by liberal_veteran
...however, one must always take into account that during his time, Saddam brought literacy from 30% to 70%, instituted a program to bring clean drinking water to over 90% of the population, built near-universal health care, women had near equality with men, they built several very respected institutes of higher learning, and before the sanctions their was a thriving middle class in Iraq.

That is not say that getting on the wrong side of politics was a good idea in Iraq, but the simple fact is that the portrait of Saddam as a madman hovering on the edges of murder and insanity at all times is a foolish notion to anyone who knows anything at all about the history of Iraq during Saddam's rule.

Another one that gets me is the "Saddam lived in luxury while people lived in squalor." Uh, okay. Bush lives in luxury while 43 million people don't have access to basic health care and millions of people go to bed hungry every night.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. No flame from me Pal...
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 09:58 AM by trumad
In a perfect world we would have simply marched in, killed "JUST" Hussein and his henchman, replace it with a democracy and walked out.

Then we would walk into Iran, Syria, Lybia, Cuba etc and do the same thing...

The problem with that Neo-Con vision is that we don't live in a perfect world. The underestimation of what would happen in Iraq is truly the biggest blunder in the history of US Foriegn policy. Poor George W. Bush... He's delighted that his legacy will be one of "War President". To bad his real legacy will be making the world a far more dangerous place to live in for years to come!....
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well, in the perfect PNAC world you wouldn't have to do that...
...since supposedly the imposition of democracy in Iraq is supposed to just magically spawn democracy in all the other countries of the Middle East (apparently by osmosis).

Of course if this were true, one wonders how they managed to forget that Turkey has existed in the Middle East for decades without this osmosis effect occurring.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. PNAC?
What's that?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. PNAC
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 10:42 AM by KansDem
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

on edit: Happy reading!
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. A quick read
Seems that they want to enforce a global "Pax Americana". Is this right?
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. ok, one more time to post this article
http://www.freearabvoice.org/readerscorner/whatAboutSaddam.htm

reproduced in it's entirety because this article is

Not copyrotten. (or presumably spell-checked) Reproduction and redistribution encouraged.


But What About Saddam?
======================
FAV Note:
The following text comes from Peace Porridge #30.
For more information about Peace Porridge, look at the end of the page.

**********************

I've been to Iraq three times in the past four years. Each time I go
someone asks me whether I met Saddam. The first question the editor of
my local newspaper asked me was, "Did you ever meet a dictator you
didn't like?" That was the high point. The interview went downhill from
there.

I can't figure it out. I go to Nicaragua every year; but no one has
ever asked me if I met Enrique Bolanos; or if I met Jean Chritien when
I went to Canada, or Vicente Fox when I visited Mexico. Perhaps, when
the US government and its propaganda machine demonize a head of state,
people confuse the head of state with the country and its population.

I try to avoid talking about Saddam. My work in Iraq with Veterans for
Peace is rebuilding water treatment plants which were deliberately
destroyed through war and sanctions.

Saddam is irrelevant. He isn't drinking polluted water because of
sanctions, but millions of Iraqis are. Saddam's children aren't dying
from water-borne diseases, but hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children
have died of water-borne diseases because of sanctions. Iraqi children
will continue to die needlessly until the sanctions are lifted and the
12 year old state of war is ended. Saddam is the excuse for continuing
the slaughter.

I've been told that if I don't talk about Saddam, no one will listen to
me. I've also been told that if I don't repeat the litany, "Saddam is a
brutal dictator who gassed his own people," I will have no credibility.

Whether I'm talking to a pro-war hawk, or an anti-sanctions activist,
it's the same litany, "Saddam is a brutal dictator who gassed his own
people." Something is wrong. If everybody agrees, why repeat it?
Strange. This litany would seem to obscure some important truth.

Below, I will debunk some common myths relating to Saddam Hussein; and
then suggest an hypothesis concerning the hidden truth behind the
demonization of Saddam.

----------------

MYTH: By gassing civilians at Halabja, Saddam placed himself on the
level of Hitler and a few other genocidal maniacs.

FACT: It's almost never stated that this happened during the war with
Iran, and that both sides used poison gas (although Iraq did so first).
It's also rarely stated that much of the raw materials and technical
knowledge to produce these weapons came from the US, which at the time,
raised no protest to the gassing of civilians at Halabja.

Most major participants in World War I used poison gas. After WWI,
Britain gassed the Afghans, France the Moroccans, Italy the Ethiopians,
and so it went among the "civilized" Western powers. During WWII Japan
attempted to spread anthrax and plague among the Chinese, a feat the US
also attempted in North Korea some years later.

The US has a long history of using biochemical weapons. As early as the
18th century, European immigrants deliberately spread smallpox among
the indigenous peoples of North America. The US sprayed Vietnam
copiously with dioxin containing agent orange, poisoning the land, the
people, the food and water supply, and its own soldiers. The US is now
using a toxic fumigant in its war against Columbia, again poisoning the
land, the people, and the food and water supply. In each case, the
victims are mostly civilians.


MYTH: No other country would use biochemical weapons on its own people,
like Saddam did.

FACT: The US has also used biochemical agents against its own people.
During the early decades of the cold war, the US Army routinely used
unsuspecting US citizens as human guinea pigs to test nuclear and
biochemical weapons. On many occasions, the US Army released the toxic
heavy metal compound, zinc cadmium sulfate, which causes birth defects
and developmental retardation, in US and Canadian cities, sometimes in
close proximity to schools. This heinous and unpunished crime took
place at a time of (relative) peace.


MYTH: If Saddam stopped building palaces, he could provide for his
people. Sanctions have nothing to do with the excessive childhood
mortality in Iraq.

FACT: During the 1980's Saddam built an educational and health care
system in Iraq that was the envy of the Arab world. Childhood mortality
in Iraq fell by an astounding 38% in a decade. By 1990, Iraq was well
on its way to achieving a level of education and health care comparable
to the industrialized world.

This changed dramatically with the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the
ensuing sanctions. UNICEF has blamed sanctions for an excess of 500,000
child deaths over an 8 year period.

Iraq gets no cash through the oil for foods program, so virtually all
cash, including the palace-building fund, comes through the black
market trade, which is estimated at less than $1 billion per year. Even
if the black market trade is as much as $8 billion, it would provide
each Iraqi with only $1 per day. Try providing for your child on $1 a
day.


MYTH: Saddam is a threat to global peace.

FACT: What global peace? The world has been at war for most, if not
all, of my 60 years.

Interestingly, in a recent UK Mirror poll, 75% identified Saddam
Hussein as a threat to world peace, second only to the ubiquitous Osama
bin Laden, whereas George W. Bush finished third at 51%. After Israel,
Britain is the staunchest ally of the US, yet over half of the British
people think that Bush is a threat to world peace, and 22% identify him
as the greatest threat to world peace. What would the results be in a
worldwide poll?


MYTH: We must invade Iraq now. If Saddam gets weapons of mass
destruction (WMDs), he'll use them or give them to terrorists.

FACT: There is only one nation that has irrevocably demonstrated to the
world its willingness to use nuclear weapons, and it's not Iraq.
Further, the US routinely threatens to use nuclear weapons, even
against non-nuclear states. Saddam's use of biochemical weapons pales
in comparison.

The US demonstrated in the 1980's its desire to not only arm terrorist
groups, but to create them, specifically the Afghan Mujaheddin and the
Nicaraguan Contras. The US continues to train Latin American terrorists
at the School of the Americas and continues to arm terrorist death
squads in Columbia and Guatemala. No connection between Saddam and
Al-Qaeda or any other armed group has ever been substantiated.

Israel is a thermo-nuclear power and one of the world's most
aggressive, expansionist countries. Few in the US propose disarming
Israel or even cutting off the over $3 billion of aid the US has given
Israel every year since 1967. India and Pakistan were within a hair's
breadth of nuking each other. Few propose disarming India and Pakistan.
With the breakdown to Russian society, Russia is by far the world's
most likely source of nuclear proliferation. Few propose taking
measures to secure Russia's nuclear arsenal.

With all these aggressive irresponsible nuclear powers about, why
invade Iraq because it might have stashed away a few biochemical
weapons or might acquire some nuclear weapons in the future?


MYTH: Iraq must be invaded because Saddam is in violation of UN
resolution 687, calling on him to destroy all WMDs and submit to UN
inspections.

FACT: UN inspections have in the pass been used for espionage. Iraq
would probably allow UN inspectors to return, if given assurances that
they would not be used again for espionage.

Other countries flout the UN with impunity. Israel is in violation of
dozens of UN resolutions. Israel, India and Pakistan are in violation
of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The US doesn't even pay its
dues to the UN.


MYTH: Saddam has twice attacked his neighbors. Unless disarmed now, he
will do so again.

FACT: Both attacks were with the apparent blessings of the US. The
Iran-Iraq war was a proxy war which Saddam fought with material and
intelligence from the US. With Iraqi troops amassed on the border of
Kuwait, US ambassador April Glaspie virtually invited invasion by
saying to Saddam, "But, we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts,
like your border disagreement with Kuwait." If the US had unequivocally
opposed these acts of aggression, it is unlikely that either of them
would have occurred.

Meanwhile, it is conveniently ignored that Israel has attacked all its
neighbors: Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. It is
unlikely that these acts of aggression could continue if the US cut off
the over $3 billion it gives to Israel every year.


MYTH: Saddam must be taken out because he is a brutal dictator who
oppresses his own people.

FACT: The world is full of brutal dictators. The world is full of
oppressors and abusers of human rights. Many dictators such as
Pakistan's Pervez Musharraf are good friends of the US. Many of the
world's most heinous human rights abusers like Ariel Sharon are good
friends of the US.

The US could oppose dictators by supporting democracy. Yet the US
opposes Iran's Mohammad Khatami and Palestine's Yassir Arafat, both
democratically elected heads of state in a region with very little
democracy. The US could strike a fierce blow against human rights
abusers by supporting the International Criminal Court (ICC). The US
opposed the ICC.

-----------------

So, instead of repeating the litany, "Saddam is a brutal dictator who
gassed his own people," perhaps, we should ask why the United States is
so bent upon destroying Iraq? Clearly it has nothing to do with weapons
of mass destruction, threats to neighbors, dictatorships, human rights
violations, or any other reason put forward by the US.

Some answers I have heard are oil, revenge, and stupidity. All three
make some sense, but don't fit the facts completely.

Here is an hypothesis which does fits the facts. The US is bent on
destroying Iraq for the same reason it destroyed Nicaragua and has been
trying to destroy Cuba for 43 years. It cannot tolerate that a third
world country should follow an independent course and place the health
and education of its citizens before the profits of US based
multi-national corporations.

No other explanation I've heard fits the facts so well. Every third
world country that has placed the health and education of its citizens
before the profits of the multi-nationals has earned the enmity of the
US. It doesn't matter whether the country has oil. It doesn't matter
whether they have done anything aggressive toward the US. It doesn't
matter whether the US president is a clever Clinton or a bungling Bush.

Whenever possible the US has crushed these upstarts and dismantled
their health and education infrastructures. The Mossadegh government in
Iran, Sukarno in Indonesia, Allende in Chili, and the Sandinistas in
Nicaragua are some of the better known examples.

While Iraq was fighting a proxy war against Iran for the US, it was far
too valuable an ally to crush. But, that changed in 1990. Iraq was
enticed into Kuwait, and then crushed in the Persian Gulf War. Iraq's
health and education infrastructure were destroyed, but Saddam remained
in power. And this has continued through 12 years of murderous
sanctions.

Now sanctions are unraveling. Little by little the world is calling for
their end or quietly ignoring them. So the US now contemplates open war
and invasion.

But, again, Saddam is just an excuse. The real war is, and always has
been, against education and health care. The goal is to keep the
children poor, sick, and illiterate, the resources in the hands of the
multi-nationals, and to let Iraq serve as an example to any other
country that might contemplate pulling itself up from third world
status.

This, indeed, is the important truth hidden by the demonization of
Saddam Hussein.

-Tom Sager
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. excellent article filled with truth and rationale
thanks.....
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Solomon is wise
Yes Sadddam and flightsuit have very much in common.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. Prediction:
Edited on Mon Feb-16-04 10:05 AM by Jacobin
In one year, we will all be missing Saddam who was a secular evil dictator who kept civil war in Iraq from erupting, and who will have been replaced by a fundamentalist isalmic cleric who will declare jihad against the west (after the U.S. puppet is knocked off in a coup) after which the country will erupt in civil war while our soldiers are shot at and blown up.


On edit; Actually not my prediction, it was the prediction of the CIA that was ignored by the OSP
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. If a COMPETENT administration took the time and care,
it's possible Iraq, and the world, would be better off.

However, I must constrain to reality. Let's face facts, and I hope you freeper lurkers are reading:

Saddam is/was a nutter, and when you have raving lunatics like * in power name-calling everybody he doesn't like, you can bet your sweet bippy that the people he's verbally abused might possibly want to retaliate, with real weapons and real carnage because they're in positions of real power. (When you go to a bar, what's your first natural knee-jerk instinct when somebody calls you a bad name? Yes, you want to fight back against the loser who verbally attacked you and started the provocation. It's just that simple.) Indeed, Saddam indirectly attacked * and we saw how * responded. In the most grotesque, unevolved way possible...

George W Bush is a mindless, sloppy, incomptent, dickless dipshit who was satiating his desire of blood feud because Saddam made a threat against Daddy G H W Bush. He doesn't give a fuck about ANYBODY, let alone this country, unless he gets paid big money in return. This can be seen in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POLICIES AND TAX CUT GAMBITS.

There's a reason why I call him "President Apostate*".
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