of what value is the left to the Democratic Party?

[ulysses]

Let's have it. Do you value the left, and if so, why? For their votes (if even that)? For their activism? For their values or ideas? Do you say you value them just so they'll shut the hell up?

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. If by "left" you mean people who favor a deviation from the status quo

that would put petty concerns about hunger and disease and genocide above key strategic US business interests such as the defense and energy industries, then none whatsoever.

[boobooday]

2. What does that mean?

Without the left, the Democratic Party is . . . . the Republican party.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Mad Cow Doc]

3. It is to a matter of degrees.

The GOP is certainly more Right of the DEMs but some of us are a lot more "centered" than you may think. The "Far Left" brings a stimulation for change but rarely does the whole electorate lean that far in either direction.

[ulysses]

4. so, Doc, the original question applies.

:shrug:

edit: unless being a stimulant for change is the extent of the answer.

[plaguepuppy]

10. How to define the right-left axis

For a long time now the Organized Right (AKA Movement Conservatives, the clique currently holding state power) has done everything it could to demonize the political left, relentlessly demonizing and ridiculing anyone more liberal than themselves. This linguistic coup was in reality a triumph of Psy-Ops, a campaign spanning decades that culminated in turning the word 'liberal' into a perjorative term.

" "Liberal" comes from the Latin liberalis, which means pertaining to a free man. In politics, to be liberal is to want to extend democracy through change and reform. One can see why that word had to be erased from our political lexicon.”
Gore Vidal, from his book The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

If I had to define a meaningful right-left axis I would put statist, quasi-fascist politicians on the far right. But as you move away from that it would seem to imply a movement toward devolution of power back to the community, with some kind of anarchy as the far left pole.

This whole scheme falls apart with the current neoperps who mostly started life as Trotskyist/Stalinist types, later re-inventing themselves as conservatives of an oddly centrist and anti-libertarian type, and with a voracious appetite for world empire. But the same passion for loyalty, conspiracy and central authority, the holy triad of the dedicated revolutionary still mark these people in their neocon incarnation. What they really believe in has nothing whatsoever in common with "conservative values" in the colloquial, non-ideological sense.

[ulysses]

17. ok, but waggawagga.

You're right as regards the smearing of the term "liberal", but, in the end, the choice is between freedom and servitude, not one party or the other.

[AndyTiedye]

25. The Word You are Looking for is FASCIST

> This whole scheme falls apart with the current neoperps who mostly started life as Trotskyist/Stalinist types, later re-inventing
> themselves as conservatives of an oddly centrist and anti-libertarian type, and with a voracious appetite for world empire. But the same
> passion for loyalty, conspiracy and central authority, the holy triad of the dedicated revolutionary still mark these people in their neocon
>incarnation. What they really believe in has nothing whatsoever in common with "conservative values" in the colloquial, non-ideological sense.

[resist]

5. Who are you asking?

I think the DLC would pretty much say we're no damned good.

Gandhi might say we're the hope of the party.

For myself, I think there should be an outlet for diversity of opinion in our civic debate.
Right now, there really isn't a place for a liberal to feel truly comfortable. It was kind of nice in the old days when you knew what someone meant by saying they were republican or democrat. Can't tell much difference now.

Why do we bother you so much?

[KC21304]

6. I couldn't disagree more. The division between most Dems

and most Republicans is getting wider everyday. Of course there are exceptions in each party.

[ulysses]

8. so...

care to offer an answer to the original question?

[ulysses]

7. not the left, to be honest.

:)

[BeFree]

9. Define left n/t

[ulysses]

14. ok

I would define "left" as anti-NAFTA, pro-gay marriage, pro-public education, *generally* anti-war, pro-labor, pro-minority, pro-choice, etc.

[BeFree]

16. Very good, ulysses

But...I know some arch-conservatives who are anti-nafta, and many libs who are for free trade. Actually fair trade, is a better description.

Is it gay marriage or pro-civil rights? Once again, there is cross over.

On most of these issues there is a cross over, but yeah, main supporters of these issues are the Left. But, is describing some issues the best way to describe the left? I've often wondered........

Back to the original question. What was it? Something like what good is the Left to the Dems? Lets go with that. OK?

I'd say it's kinda like asking what good are the feet to the rest of the body. Yeah, could live without 'em but it'd be hard to finish a foot race, eh?....The Left is needed by the Dems.

[ulysses]

18. there's plenty of gray area, sure.

I was asked how *I* defined the term.

I'd say it's kinda like asking what good are the feet to the rest of the body. Yeah, could live without 'em but it'd be hard to finish a foot race, eh?....The Left is needed by the Dems.

A fair enough analogy, but these questions never get responses from those who don't feel as if they need the feet. :shrug:

[Selwynn]

34. So, then... a DEMOCRAT, you mean ?

[waldenx]

11. they say vote for the party and shut up

and they say OHHH America isnt ready for equal rights...
America isnt ready for equal opportunity...
America isnt ready for education....
America isnt ready for health care.....
America isnt ready for democracy....

I didn't protest the war for the America 1000 years in the future.
Progress is either NOW or never.
This "incrimental progress" LIE is a fucking dance backwards.

I can't wait to say I told you so to the fucking cowards who vote for the "safe" and "electable".

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. I am the left. And a Democratic. I value me. nt

[tomorrowsashes]

13. Let's reverse the question

What value is the democratic party to the left? None. The democratic party prevents any real change by labeling those who do not support its movement right as immature.

[plaguepuppy]

15. Telling truth to power

"Because I love my country, because I am a patriot, and because the American people deserve the truth ... I won't shut up until the full and unvarnished truth is placed before the American people."
Cynthia McKinney, May 16, 2002

“The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight."
John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, November 12 1963, ten days before his murder on November 22, 1963.


“Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men’s views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U.S., in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive., that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”
Woodrow Wilson

"If we understand the mechanisms and motives of the group mind, it is now possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing it ... The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country ... In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons ... who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."
-- Edward Bernays, the "Father of
Propaganda"


"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power."
-FDR


"If the truth is that ugly -- which it is -- then we do have to be careful about the way that we tell the truth. But to somehow say that telling the truth should be avoided because people may respond badly to the truth seems bizarre to me."
--Chuck Skoro, Deacon, St. Paul's Catholic Church


"The whole aim of practical politics
is to keep the populace alarmed
and hence, clamorous to be led to
safety - by menacing it with an
endless series of hobgoblins, all of
them imaginary" ~ H.L. Mencken\

[BillZBubb]

22. You cannot be serious?

The Democratic party is the only hope for the left. This country is lurching hard right under the Repugs. Do you suggest those of us on the left abandon the Democrats because they are not ideologically pure?

Sure, we abandon the Democrats, the Repugs continue to ruin everything--then tell me what value the Democrats have. I would rather have half a loaf with the Democrats than eat shit for decades with the Repugs. But that's just me.

And, I've never been called immature for stating my strong left views on the direction of the party.

[bvar22]

26. The country "lurched right" under the Clinton administration.

*

[Jax]

28. Excellent post tommorrowsashes

Welcome to DU.

I totally agree with your post and I love your sig line.

Jax

[PVnRT]

19. Anymore, I don't know

It seems we are expected just to shut up and vote for them and quit complaining.

[ulysses]

20. been that way for a while.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. A lot less valuable than it used to be.

The "left," whatever it is, seems to be ossified. There are progressives, neo-libertarians, and whatnot floating around, but old-line lefties like Emma Goldman are history. Or at least in a safe undisclosed location.

Major political movements just don't get traction unless someone sees a real need for them. We are not in any sort of obvious major crisis right now that needs fresh ideas or major change from muddling along.

The Depression, civil rights activism brought on by the old-time legal racism, labor riots, farmers and bimetallism... we've had a lot of real problems in the past, and it brought about new philosophies and movements to deal with them. Nothing like that now, and even with many serious problems, most people are doing OK. Sort of, anyway, but OK enough to not want to rock the boat. For a movement to build, there has top be a question that it can answer.

The "left" has pretty much shot its load. We got civil rights. We got labor laws and pensions. We got the FDA. We got the SEC and the NLRB. We got the EPA and OSHA. We got most of the other stuff we wanted, and now its just meandering along whining about how the stuff we wanted isn't working as well as it should.

PATRIOT and the latest war will pass. Everyone knows there's a pandulum swinging, and it will swing back soon enough. We've been through that before. We've been through far worse economic times and survived, too. So, maybe it won't happen this time, but now's a little soon to get all that hysterical about it.

Nope, no "left" here. A few burned out radicals left over from whenever, but what passes for "left" now is just mainstream common sense and decency. Michael Moore could have been a radical leftist years ago, but now he's an observer and commentator, not a movement leader. Al Franken and Molly Ivins are as establishment as any limousine liberal on Park Avenue. Same with any congresscritter, including Wellstone and Kucinich. Even Barney Frank and Rangel. Everyone's working the system from the inside.

Meet a few wild-eyed socialists working the trenches in soup kitchens and holding small rallies every so often, but their influence is minimal. Except, of course, to the people they feed, clothe, or house.

[ulysses]

23. hey, cool!

We are not in any sort of obvious major crisis right now that needs fresh ideas or major change from muddling along.

Then you won't mind if some of us vote third party, as long as there's not that much at stake. Cool. Thanks.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. Knock yourself out, but...

I didn't say there couldn't be a major crisis real soon now.

The "left" may be ossified, but that doesn't mean we have to hand even more over to the far right. The inept and dangerous far right.

Left, right, middle... what we all want is a government that actually works.

And doesn't cause yet more harm.

[kodi]

27. until they realize peace and prosperity arises from compromise, nothing

and by "left" i am assuming that the classical, ideological, and doctrinaire definition is in play, because if not so, define "left" for me.

are we talking of true trotskyites, bukunainists, leninists, or anarchists, or are we talking about many of the modern intellectual bourgeoisie who call themselves leftist and base their stances on subjects from reading a couple of marxist tracts, a sense of guilt from their own entitlement, and who unfailingly have a penchant for possessing internal philosophical inconsistencies?

the former will never compromise; the latter will make those of us working class slugs who believe in western style liberal democracy and not marxism look like idiots to have them as allies.

[plaguepuppy]

29. History is written by the victors

It's impossible to discuss the history of the US "left" (and here I am not using it to mean "true trotskyites, bukunainists, leninists, or anarchists" but the more colloquial sense of antiwar and social justice groups) without discussing the overwhelming role played by COINTELPRO in sabotaging and ultimately destroying political activism. Much of the absurd sectarian infighting was clearly part of this overall strategy.

I was involved with the anti Vietnam war movement in a fairly minor way in the 60s and early 70s, Physicians for Social Responsibility in the late 70s, pretty mainstream stuff. In all that time I never saw or heard much from Marxist ideologues of any stripe. I can also attest to the fact that by the mid 1970's most such groups were heavily infiltrated, to the point that there seemed to be more plants than real members at most meetings.

[natedogg9328]

32. former and latter are more similar than it might seem....

i think it is simply and glaringly obvious how the classic liberal bourgeoisie (i.e. Kerry) panders to us 'working class slugs' with their talk of helping the working man. Once in office, nothing changes. Sure, they lambast the ultra-rich, who are actually their peers. And they hate corporate culture, which certainly has its faults, but how does one think that the Heinz family made its money? Isn't that disingenuous?
Before we face the conservatives we should clear up our own inconsistencies.

[cryofan]

30. Most DUers, including myself, are part of the Dem party Left

We do value ourselves.

[natedogg9328]

31. The Dems use us in the primary then coast to the middle!!!!

I'm betting this is what will happen! Sure, the Democratic party loves the left and all we fight for during the primary, but as soon as they get a nominee, they pander to the middle and take our votes for granted! Both sides do it, you realize, but I still don't like it. Clinton won because he won the middle, and you can be sure that Kerry will do the same.

[Serenity-NOW]

33. What a curious question since the Dems have always

included a component of the left or perhaps the 'New Deal' isn't in your scope. A more relevant and timely question would be 'how harmful are the neocons to the Republican party?' (not to mention the nation and the world in general) Since the neocons are a relatively new to running the government and we've gotten to witness firsthand their assinine projects and programs.

[camero]

35. No left, no opposing force

Without the left, it just becomes a contest between Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum.

[AgadorSparticus]

36. The Left is the conscience of the party. It is the anchor.

But I have no delusions to think that the party can get things done in Washington on ideals alone. I know they have to compromise and work with the toads of the right to be effective. I would rather they compromise to get stuff done than get absolutely nothing done and be absolutely right. It's a fine line to walk and they probably don't always get it right.

[KG]

37. boy, just pull that lever what gotta (D) next to it,

an' evarthang gonna be a-o.k., got it?

:eyes:

[Jose Diablo]

38. What value is the Left? define the problem to be solved

The value of any point on the political spectrum has more to do with the problem thats to be solved and what is considered important.

For example, if you define the problem of health care as how to maximize profit with a given cost, then what we have today is the best system.

However, if you define the problem as providing the best health care for the most people at a given cost, then the Left view to provide health care via social method for providing the cash is better.

You could say the same thing for any number of problems.

Another example would be how can we get across that river. What will be the economic method to obtain the cash to build a bridge and after the bridge is built, how much will be charged to use the bridge. Every political view will have a different view.

The real question is, what do we consider the important things to consider in the problem to be solved.

[Iverson]

39. from one lefty to another

The left is of incalculable value to the Democratic Party, but that value passes without notice except in retrospect.

The left is the burned library at Alexandria.