Feb 13 1945 - the firebombing of Dresden and POW K Vonnegut

[bobbieinok]

59 years ago the allies bombed Dresden; the war was nearly over.


at http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm


The WWII Dresden Holocaust -
'A Single Column Of Flame'
2-6-2


"You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr

On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants, possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in what was the worst single event massacre of all time.

......

In December 1944, Vonnegut was captured by the German army and became a prisoner of war. In Slaughterhouse Five, he describes how he narrowly escaped death a few months later in the firebombing of Dresden. "Yes, by your people , may I say," he insists. "You guys burnt the place down, turned it into a single column of flame. More people died there in the firestorm, in that one big flame, than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. I'm fond of your people, on occasion, but I was just thinking about 'Bomber Harris, who believed in attacks on civilian populations to make them give up. A hell of a lot of Royal Air Force guys were ashamed of what Harris had made them do. And that's really sportsmanship and, of course, the Brits are famous for being good sports," he concedes.

...

I'm not supporting this site's view of the firebombing - just using it as a source of some info and the reminder that Vonnegut was there and wrote about it.

Although I definitely question the 'necessity' of the bombing, I still pretty much think 'If you don't want your cities bombed, you don't start wars.'

(BTW one of David Irving's early books was about the Dresden firebombing. Now a Hitler apologist and a Holocaust denier, Irving labels the Dresden firebombing a 'war crime.')

[Blayde Starrfyre]

1. Word

"Although I definitely question the 'necessity' of the bombing, I still pretty much think 'If you don't want your cities bombed, you don't start wars.'"

I'd agree with that. Hard to feel any sympathy for the Germans in WWII.

[Jesus H. Christ]

2. If you don't want to be raped, stop dressing like a slut.

Seems to be blaming the victim. Sure, the nazis started the war, but the civilians of Dresden weren't the nazis.

If it wasn't necessary than it's inexcusable, whether who started it.

[stopthegop]

3. the German people supported the German government..

analogies to rape are ...incorrect at best...people die in war, it's tragic but true...and the relevant question is usually "Our citizen or their's?"

[JohnOneillsMemory]

7. Read about the rise of Hitler. Mass terrorism and some complicity.

It would take lots of research to determine what percentage believed in Hitler and what percentage complied out of terror.

I'm reading about it right now. Our country's nationalistic attitudes are very similar to Germans between the wars that gave rise to Hitler. That's why the fascism W is fronting has gotten as far as it has.

I recommend you apply any rationale you make about other nationalities to your Fallow Merkins and see how it stands up to people who are 'just like you.'

People are generally good and compassionate but they are lied to, terrorized, fear-mongered, manipulated into doing things to others that would not do to themselves.

The power structure that lies to the military to get it to kill on command is responsible.

[stopthegop]

9. let me be more clear...

comparing the gov't of Germany in the ten years 1936 -1945 to the gov't of the US anytime in the 20th century is lunacy...there is no valid comparison...
have a good weekend

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. Actually I was comparing the German civilians of 1918-1933 to US

civilians today. There was the same burning sense of denied entitlement. The hypernationalist German people were told they were winning the war in the summer of 1918. A few months later, they were told they had lost. They were shocked and outraged and turned on each other to find out 'who had betrayed them.' Hitler exploited this anger and channeled it towards Jews and other scapegoats. He also militarized the culture and pointed it at conquest of 'inferior populations.'

Americans have the same master-race mentality. We are raised with a narrative of the USA as the pinnacle of civilisation which should dominate the planet because of our inherent goodness and strength. I call this the 'Superman Jesus in a Cowboy Hat Syndrome.' When the Vietnam war came to be seen as a lost cause, the power structure blamed 'those liberals, their liberal press, those lazy negroes and perverted homosexuals' for 'diminishing public unity and denying us our rightful victory.' This divides people and harnesses hatred and anger into a remilitarized culture. That's why the current neo-con regime have been so successful in spreading fascism.

This is why I liken Germany between the wars and the rise of Hitler to the America we live in today.

[stopthegop]

18. just on one point.

I don't recall anyone blaming the result of Vietman on blacks or homosexuals..do you have an example of it?

[Jesus H. Christ]

11. Yeah, it's not a great analogy.

And yes, people die in war. But just because it's a war does not necessarily justify killing civilians.

I'm no expert in the Dresden bombing, but there's a lot of speculation that it wasn't justified. If you're going to kill a half a million civilians, you'd better have a damn good reason. And attrition isn't a damn good reason.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

4. Really? Punishing civilians for the sins of the fuhrers justifies 9/11?

Punishing an 'enemy' government by slaughtering its people is a war crime. And standard operating procedure. It's also known as terrorism.

Plain and simple.

[Jesus H. Christ]

12. I think you misunderstand my position.

Do I understand your argument in that it compares the Dresden bombing to 9-11?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

15. oops. sorry. meant to respond to #1-"hard to feel sympathy for Germans.."

[htuttle]

5. Actually, by the logic of "if you don't want your cities bombed..."

...um, our government has been starting a lot of wars lately.

Soooooo......I guess we shouldn't be too surprised when OUR cities get bombed from time to time.

?

[Jose Diablo]

6. I think Vonnegut's essays about

How it is always the 'children' who are sent to fight the wars are some his best reads.

This fact struck me when I was in the airport last December. Many soldiers where in transit. They looked so young. Barely out of childhood.

If I could, I would change places with a young person for this task. I am old and have had a full life. Society could afford to lose me. It would be little loss. I doubt the military would want me though.

Maybe a law should be passed that only those 50 plus years should go to war. There would be less "bully from the pulpit" then.

[kcwayne]

10. Another idea would be to execute government officials

in proportion to the number of troops lost.

[kcwayne]

8. When General Sherman started attacking civilians

in the Civil War, most people throughout the world were absolutely appalled at the barbarity of it. Armies were supposed to fight armies. Women, children, and elderly were considered off limits.

Even in WWI the war was not directed explicitly at civilians.

The barbarism took hold during the Spanish Civil war, and the Japanese invasions of Korea and China, where civilians were targeted militarily.

WWII dropped all pretense of war as civilized killing, and everyone was fair game.

The idea that killing civilians as a necessary component of war is an affront to morality. What control do civilians have over their government?

Suppose China, France, Germany, and the Soviet Union decided that Bush's adventures in the Middle East pose a grave danger to their security, and launch a preemptive nuclear strike that takes out most of the major cities in the US. What say did you have to the government's choice to start and conduct war, and should you pay the price such as the citizens of Dresden?

At the time of the bombing of Dresden, there was no question about the outcome of the war, and Dresden had no military or industrial installations that enabled Germany to prolong the fight. Killing these people under these conditions was nothing less than premeditated murder. Senseless premeditated murder.

[Jose Diablo]

13. I think it was also indifferent killing

Seems like in Vonnegut's Slaughter House 5 it mentions the targeting in England for the bombers was like playing darts. Toss a dart, OK the targets Dresden today.

[BigBigBear]

14. I understood Dresden

to be revenge for Rotterdam and Coventry, both civilian targets for the Luftwaffe early in the war.

Not excusing it or condemning it - it's just what I always heard.

[Toby109]

16. I always thought Dresden was payback

for Coventry until I found this site:

www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=106

Evidently Churchill wasn't too thrilled about bombing civilians but allowed them anyway. It seems to me we stooped to Hitler's level and lost a little moral edge and even moreso with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At least in a military sense.