My local CBS affiliate is SO RACIST!

[AP]

They just did a story about black kids beating up another kid on a bus. They followed it with a story about agressive dogs that need to be euthanized.

[private_ryan]

1. I see

so they shouldn't do any dog and minorities stories in the same newscast.

[AP]

6. Agressive black kids followed by agressive animals.

Of course the story with the solution -- euthanizing the dogs -- came after the one about the kids.

Neither story was news (neither happened today.

A couple weeks ago, the NY Times did a story about a black kid acquitted of rape, but convicted of assualt. He got ten years because of mandatory sentencing, even though the jury found the intercourse part consensual. The jury was stunned when they discovered the sentence. It wasn't what they intended.

The New York times TWICE described the kid as "REARED" by white adoptive parents.

People "rear" animals. They "raise" and "parent" children.

So that's what I call a pattern building up for a crucial election year.

[Lion Prop]

104. clarification por favor

what the hell does "part consensual" mean?

[AP]

123. bad spelling notwithstanding

The jury found (if memory serves) that the victim consented to having sex, but that he hit her, or something like that. They wouldn't convict him of rape, but did convict him of assault.

The sentencing was done separately, so the jury had no idea what he'd get for that. They thought they were letting him off easily. They were shocked that he got ten years.

[Product of Evolution]

124. You mean that shit still works?

Fuck, it's 1968 all over again...:(...Not even Roy Moore will save us...

[2004Donkeys]

2. I think you're reading in too much

I may be wrong though.

[salinen]

3. There are millions

crimes committed daily in this country, they cherry pick the one's that define their bigotry. RW uber alles.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

4. ????

I saw a CBS news story about school bullies tonight (same story?). The unfortunate victim was a black kid, while the aggressors were black as well. Sad story. What do dogs have to do with anything??? Not sure where your coming from.

[Dookus]

5. I gotta agree with the others...

you may be reading a lot more into that than is really there.

[AP]

7. I'm extremely confident that I'm not.

[Mairead]

108. With that juxtaposition, I'm confident too that you're not!

Before about thirty years ago, the press justified their identifying accused Black people by saying that the default is White, so they only needed to identify non-Whites. It took a long while before they finally were forced to admit that skin color usually isn't a relevant item of information about an arrest at all.

[Muddleoftheroad]

136. Do you have any idea how news works?

Do you think they put that much thought into transition and order? No. They start with the best stories or ones that have the best video. They worry not at all about transition because it all happens too damn fast.

Your energy is overwhelming your judgment.

[AP]

140. Yeah I know how the news worked. Lots of my theories confirmed

during recall coverage. This is the same old same old. Whatever gets Republicans elected.

[Muddleoftheroad]

151. You see what you wish to see

Not the reality of the situation.

[AP]

153. I see what other refuse to see.

I was just reading this book, The Hearts of Darkness: How White Writers Created the Racist Image of Africa by Milton G. Allimadi, and I'm seeing things that are as blatant as the things that Allimadi cites as evidence of racism in NYT articles from the 1920s about South Africa and African politics.

Look, I know that Bush wants you to blame race if you think you're losing your job or aren't as rich as you thought you'd be, but don't you see that isn't the case.

By calling the media on this, we're getting people to realize that we all do better when we all do better, and that's going to bring an end to Bush and the Republicans current racist world view?

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. There IS nothing to see

And it hurts our credibility to claim otherwise. Go to the library or a bookstore and look for an AP Stylebook and see for yourself.

[AP]

157. What's the ISBN number of that book? You have a scanner?

[tobius]

8. caution, screaming "racism" at something like this

only dilutes the charge.

[AP]

10. It was racist.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

9. News is not a story with a plot

No one equates blacks or any other persons with animals. That's sick.

[AP]

11. Exactly. Unfortunately the story is conservativism and the plot is to

get Republicans elected.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

13. Dunno man

I'm not sure we saw the same story, so I could be wrong. What I saw tonight was the 6:30 national news on CBS. (Eastern Time) School bus bullies and such..why did the bus driver not stop..right of passage nonsense. We could be talking about two shows here.

[AP]

14. It was on my local station. I presumed the bus story was local. The dog

story was definitely local.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

17. My bad

I was thinking of something else I guess. I can't really speak to your show,so for all I know you could be on to something.

[tkmorris]

12. Really?

There may be something to those stories being run as they were or there may not. I didn't see it so I have no opinion. But.....

"No one equates blacks with animals"? Wow the internet is amazing, somehow we are posting to the same board even though we are clearly living on different planets. No offense intended but believe me, that sort of bigotry is shockingly more common than most people realize.

[AP]

15. Yeah. I didn't want to touch that one. You're so right.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

16. thanks tkmorris

you are right. I should be careful about words like No one (always,never,etc). Is the bigot argument that minorities are animals though? That's too easy to dismiss IMHO. But yes, there are clearly too numerous examples of bigotry and racism remaining today. I just don't think this news event qualifies. And the earlier post was correct in stating that this kind of accusation, demeans the term racism.

[AP]

18. You didn't even see it. And what do you think about the NYT using

the word "reared" twice in an article to describe the relatioship between white adoptive parents and their black son who was convicted of felony assualt after being acquitted of rape.

It's the exact same kind of racism.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

19. Can't speak to that fairly either

My parents reared me, in their own words. I'm not claiming to know the correct answer. Not sure what your looking for. No doubt we agree that racism and bigotry exist today, and that it is the lowest and most base of human evils. I MAY BE WRONG in questioning this, and apologize if it is insensitive to do so. There seems to be so much overt racism, including in shubs administration. I just don't see it under every rock and tree however. I like to think mine is not a naive opinion here.

[AP]

20. I happend to think these two examples are rather overt.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

21. hmmm

I think the inhumanely harsh sentencing was overt. The language may or may not have been.

[Heyo]

22. I need to straighten something out here....

Aside from the main topic. to correct any misconception...

The term "reared" is used for bringing up children..

The term "raised" is used as in raising animals on a farm..

So it is actually most commonaly said wrong, you "rear" children and "raise" cows or chickens, etc.

Not the other way around...

Look it up.

Again, don't mean anything by this, just want to set the record straight.

regards all,
-Heyo

[AP]

25. You have got to be kidding. You raise people. You rear animals.

I have never heard a human being say "I was reared that way" or "my parents didn't rear me to be like that."

[Heyo]

29. some snips and links

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reared

2 entries found for reared.
rear2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rîr)
v. reared, rear·ing, rears
v. tr.
To care for (children or a child) during the early stages of life; bring up.
To lift upright; raise.
To build; erect.
To tend (growing plants or animals).

http://www.tameri.com/edit/usage_nz.html

raised / reared - Animals are said to be raised while children are reared. It is increasingly common to use raised in both instances.

http://www.write4biz.com/communications/newsletters.cfm?newsletterID=52&return=1

"Only humans may be reared. All living things, including humans, may be raised."

So actually, they are somewhat interchangable, but I remember my English teachers teaching it the way that most people are not used to saying it.

Heyo

[AP]

34. See below. New York Times has consistently says poor black kids reared.

Everyone else is raised.

[AP]

35. Here's what I found when I looked up rear:

Definition

rear (CARE FOR)   
verb
to care for young animals or children until they are able to care for themselves:
Some women make a deliberate choice to rear a child alone.
He describes how these birds rear their young.
See also child-rearing.

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65845&dict=CALD

[AP]

36. And for raise:

raise (DEVELOP)   
verb
to take care of a person, or an animal or plant, until they are completely grown:
Her parents died when she was a baby and she was raised by her grandparents.
The lambs had to be raised by hand (= fed artificial milk by people) when their mother died.
The farmer raises (= breeds) chickens and pigs.
The soil around here isn't good enough for raising (= growing) crops.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65279&dict=CALD

Notice which one refers to PEOPLE first, and which one refers to ANIMALS first.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

77. selective definitions to prove your point

here's another

rear2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rîr)
v. reared, rear·ing, rears
v. tr.
To care for (children or a child) during the early stages of life; bring up.
To lift upright; raise.
To build; erect.
To tend (growing plants or animals).

[AP]

80. The first two DICTIONARIES I looked at (not thesausruses)

had those definitions.

It wasn't selective. It was the first and only place I looked.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

81. this was a dictionary...

[bhunt70]

83. in both selections you bolded the parts you wanted but not the other parts

[AP]

89. I was highlighiting the fact that animals were described in one definition

first, and people where described in the other one first.

I can't believe you think I'm hiding the unbolded stuff.

[bhunt70]

125. who cares which one came first, both were listed.

[AP]

129. Look, I was willing to make my point with commone sense.

The critics turned to the dictionary...I mean thesaurus.

The fact is, the first dictionary I looked at showed it my way.

The fact is, I've never heard a human being say about another one, "I reared this kid to respect his parents" or anything like that.

I've seen plenty of nature shows talking about how, eg, turtles rear their young.

I'm satisfied that experience is enough to prove my point. But I'm pleased to see that the dictionary puts the definitions in the right order too.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

142. i used a DICTIONARY not a thesaurus

so please stop claiming that it was a thesaurus...and I will accept an apology any time...

theProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

137. Dictionaries do not apply

I don't have a current AP Stylebook or Chicago Stylebook, but they are using something like that. (NYT might have their own.) That overrules your dictionary any day.

[Mairead]

111. heh heh it's a dialect difference, AP

I never had any trouble keeping Scottish, Canadian, and US English straight, but I was thrown for a loop as an adult when I first heard 'carry' used to mean 'guide or accompany'. The vision called to mind when a hulking young man told he he'd 'carry' me over to the building I was looking for will stay in my mind forever--I almost ran away!

Whether someone is 'raised', 'reared', 'brought up', 'raised up', 'reared up', or 'brought along' is a matter of regional dialect. As is the difference between 'bag', 'sack' and 'poke', and 'pop', 'soda', 'tonic', 'seltzer', and 'coke'.

[AP]

119. Not exactly. The Tampa child of well know people who likes literature was

raising her kids in FL.

The poor black kids in GA, FL, the hick democrat and the Iranian terrorist were all reared.

[Mairead]

146. I think my point is that the words aren't universally bound to the same

meanings. The policy at that propaganda source might indeed be to differentiate that way, but I don't think it's really possible to say that they're hooking an existing prejudice without knowing whether the 'natural' dialect is uniform across their catchment area (I bet it's not), and, of course, whether the dialect specifies that 'rear' is only used about non-humans.

[AP]

148. Two stories about Florida. One uses rear. The other raise. I'm guessing,

reasonably, that the same editor edited both. They're definitely in the same paper.

I'm going to err on the side of being critical, and not on the side of saying, "well, maybe this paper with a history of promoting attitudes which help Republicans winn elections isn't doing it THIS time."

[pnb]

23. That is not necessarily true

The NYT may very well use that phrase to describe the relationship between ALL parents and children.

[AP]

26. I doubt it.

[AP]

33. Quick search of NYTimes archives, black kids accused of crime "reared"

And children from, um, good homes are always "raised."

The village is also home to full-time residents, many who moved from New York City but still commute to work there, as well as so-called Springers, people born and raised in Cold Spring.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/13/realestate/13WEEK.html

Cold Spring is a very wealthy suburb of NYC where PEOPLE are RAISED.

----

The daughter of well-known comic strip artist Leslie Turner, Cook taught literature and writing in Tampa schools for 26 years and raised four children

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/business/AP-Gerber-Baby.html

If you like literature and your parents are famous, you get to be RAISED by them according to the Times.

--

However, if you're a black kid accused of misdemeanor battery from a poor family (in the very same state of Florida), guess what?

He grew up in modest circumstances and was reared by his mother after his father died.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/10/sports/ncaafootball/10WILL.html

And that isn't even the story I read orignally. This is the one that uses "reared" TWICE in order to hit the point home:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60711FA3B5D0C718EDDA80894DC404482

[AP]

37. This is a SHOCKING pattern. Anyone care to comment?

[Jesus H. Christ]

85. Not terribly shocking to me.

Unfortunately.

I'd say it merits a rigorous analysis.

[AP]

96. ...

...

[pnb]

99. I'd care to comment

Its easy to find patterns when you pick and choose only those articles that back up your "point." Also from the NY Times...

Yet this strong and deeply sincere piece makes the retreat not only honorable but a cause for celebration. Mr. Rands, near 70, was reared in a culture still overwhelmed by the inheritance of Romanticism and desperate to escape its influence.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806E3D61230F937A25752C0A9629C8B63


ABSTRACT - Last article in series examining lives and careers of candidates seeking Democratic presidential nomination focuses on Sen John Edwards of NC; his campaign hinges on notion that he has not forgotten where he comes from: born in small town, reared by working-class parents and first in his family to go to college;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70D17FC3E540C718DDDA80894DC404482

I found these in about 1 minute of searching.

Its real easy to pretend that racism exists in every little aspect of life...it is also wrong and takes away from events that truly are racist. Hint...if you have to try this hard to prove it, it ain't there.

[AP]

100. Thank you for helping me prove my point. The NYT doesn't like Edwards ...

...either.

Low class people are reared in 8 out of 9 stories using either rear or raised.

And I wasn't picking and choosing my stories. The first four I noted above are the first four I looked at.

Cultured white people and people from wealthy suburbs are raised. Blacks, criminals, potential terrorists and hick Democrats running for president are reared.

And ONE white man was "reared" in a set of cultural influences which influenced his later work.

And read closely the use of "reared" in Rands's bio -- poltical influences overwhelming romanticism was the world in which he was "reared."

I wonder if it had been the other way around -- if he was raised in a post-progressive society in which romanticism was replacing deconstructive tendencies, or whatever, would he have been "raised" in a more genteel environment, like the women who likes literature and had famous parents?

There's a pattern here. It's undeniable.

[pnb]

102. Seeing as you change the pattern which each response...

...I guess it would be undeniable. First it was blacks, now its anyone the Times doesn't like or you think the Times was worried about your analysis of Rand? Please.

If I were to find an article claiming Beaver Cleaver was reared, you'd evidently have a reason why that one didn't count too.

Keep reaching.

[AP]

103. Bottom line: "reared" is a perjorative for the times. "Raised" is classy.

[pnb]

110. Whatever you say AP...

n/t

[AP]

118. exactly. It's exactly what I said. This is TOO obvious.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. actually, 'rearing' can be fairly common

among different age groups. My grandparents talked about 'child rearing' quite frequently. And I know they meant nothing social about it. If you want to read something into it, why not look at the use of rearing to mean that the 'white' parents were sexually abusing him...you are assigning motivation to the use of a word bya person you probably know nothing about. Are you trying to tell me that when my grandparents talk about rearing their children they are being somehow negative toward their own children???

I agree; throwing the charge of racism around without merit cheapens the charge...

theProdigal

on edit : I don't think 'requently' is a word :-)

[AP]

40. Um, did you see what my search of the Times archive revealed?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. yes I did

and I still don't find two instances to be a real pattern here and once again...you know nothing of the author. As a matter of fact, the story about the courting of Williams by the football elite was quite complimentary of him...

theProdigal

[AP]

45. I was four for four. Every raised story I looked at was wealthy white peop

and every rear story I opened was poor (black) people accused of crime.

I bet the only other people reared according to the times are athletes not accused of crimes.

Like I said, four for four.

If you want to disprove it, keep going. It only took me about five minutes to find what I did find.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. i'll take a further peak...

but hang with me...i'm at work and may not get right back...lunch is ending.

theProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. I KNOW a couple of these folks are NON black

and one is very white...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00C13FC3D5F0C728CDDAB0894DC404482

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/weekinreview/08weis.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9806E3D61230F937A25752C0A9629C8B63

[AP]

60. No context for first story, second person ISN"T white,

and, OK, third guy was reared, race not clear.

So now we have three people who aren't white "reared" (two of whom were accused of crimes, and were athletes).

All the rest, raised.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

62. I corrected my subject

but the third guy is very white (look him up) and second is Iranian and the third is race neutral...the point made is that race has NOTHING to do with the term reared...

theProdigal

[AP]

66. You don't think this is perjorative?

Born and reared in Iran, Ayatollah Sistani is a mysterious figure himself. Many American policy makers fear that his ascension to power in Iraq could lead to a theocratic state with headquarters in Baghdad.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

69. once again...

see the third article. The point made here is that reared is used for ambiguous race/arabic(not a race but non black)/white guy.

theProdigal

[AP]

72. The third article isn't about parenting. It's about cultural influence:

All the rest are about growing up.

Mr. Rands, near 70, was reared in a culture still overwhelmed by the inheritance of Romanticism and desperate to escape its influence. Art, aping politics, decided that old cultures required obliteration. A new order assembled from the rubble would give method precedent over content. Newness was a defense against tradition: new systems of agreements between notes, new ways of putting pieces together, new ways to avoid the uses of the past.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

73. the word 'reared' was used to describe his upbringing

N/T

[AP]

79. ...his cultural influences.

People who are danger to US society, according to the New York Times are reared by parents. People who like literature are raised by their parents.

[AP]

61. By the way, the second guy -- not white -- definitely a negative story:

Born and reared in Iran, Ayatollah Sistani is a mysterious figure himself. Many American policy makers fear that his ascension to power in Iraq could lead to a theocratic state with headquarters in Baghdad.


--

Reared definitely looks like the word the NYTimes uses way more often when they want to dehumanize the subject.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

65. third guy VERY white

and positive story...

theProdigal

[AP]

68. So, ONE story in 7 doesn't fit the pattern? The other six

prove my point: to the New York Times, animals are reared and wealthy, cultured white people who live in nice suburbs are raised.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

71. two...

one has NOTHING to do with race and it took two minutes to find it...Rands was clearly white and priviledged...

I guess that doesn't matter...what percentage would it take to 'prove' to you???

theProdigal

[AP]

74. I was four for four finding my pattern. You were one for three helping me

find my pattern, and you were trying to disprove the pattern, and your ONE story you claim is about parenting, is actually about cultural development, and not so much about parenting.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

75. sure...let's search every article

ever written (half of which are going to be by AP or UPI writers and figure the percentage...

theProdigal

[AP]

78. So now it can never be proven?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0974003905/qid=1076695438//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/103-8741260-3193411?v=glance&s=books&n=507846


Try reading this book.

The Hearts of Darkness: How White Writers Created the Racist Image of Africa
by Milton G. Allimadi

It's from a masters thesis at CSJ -- well researched, well edited, and right on.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

135. your book reference aside...

you know nothing of the authors in question or their motivations in using the word 'reared'. And the only point that I was making in the selection of my stories was this: in about 30 seconds I identified 3 stories (one race neutral, one non-white in the Iranian subject and one white male) that used your selected racist term. Also, many of the stories that are linked in the search results were from AP writers...not even employees of the NYT.

If I was able to find three stories where reared had nothing to do with race (as was your claim) then perhaps a little more extensive research would have continued to prove the point that racism is NOT occuring here...elsewhere yes, but not in the use of the word reared.

theProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

138. Again, it's not the writers

These articles are going through multiple editors and ultimately multiple copy desks. Clearly some of the slot editors (the copy editor in charge) are letting this through and some are not. Raised is more contemporary but the NYT is far from current in its terminology -- hence the obvious discrepancies.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

139. hey Muddle...

you're preaching to the choir on this one. I think that my posts are just not coming through with enough logic in them or something tonight.

I just want the world (and AP) to know that reared is NOT a racist term for the upbringing of children...it nearly panics me when I see people brandy-ing about the term racism where it has no merit...

theProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

150. Thanks

I agree. This is so much effort wasted on something so bogus. Sometimes it is helpful actually understanding the subject at hand -- in this case how newspapers are produced.

This is not racism, it is merely sloppy copy editing. Ewwwwww, the horror.

[pnb]

101. Well, you obviously skipped some stories

Because I found some whites who were reared quite quickly myself.

[AP]

141. Links?

[Heyo]

42. I think ProdigalJunkMail just nailed it...

Rear is a proper term for bringing up children, but is an older term used more often many decades ago, and in modern times the word "raised" has pretty much taken over that defninition and "reared" is just natually being phased out...

I don't think either one has any type of negative connotation, IMHO.

regards all,
-Heyo

[AP]

44. Then why does the NYTimes used "rear" for poor black kids accused fo crime

and "raised" for people who read literature and live in Cold Spring?


And why did my dictionary definitions list animals first for rear and people first for raise?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

48. can't answer that without more information

and really, neither can you. I can understand that this feels racist to you and that is something of merit...but you really cannot just take a word with multiple possible meanings and assign the worst of them unless you know something about the author and have some stronger pattern than a few stories. If I could find an example where 'raised' was used to describe a black person's upbringing then what would that do to your argument?

theProdigal

[AP]

52. I just did that (and racism isn't about "feelings")

I've made a VERY coherent argument. The counter-argument seems to be denial and falling back on "feeling" and emotion. Believe me, I'm cool as a cucumber. I'm relying on facts.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. please see above relply

where 'reared' was used to describe white folks...all found on the NYT website

[AP]

64. Yes, thanks for helping me to continue making my point.

Born and reared in Iran, Ayatollah Sistani is a mysterious figure himself. Many American policy makers fear that his ascension to power in Iraq could lead to a theocratic state with headquarters in Baghdad.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

67. reared is race neutral...

point made in third article...

theProdigal

[AP]

70. Animals are reared. People are raised. Six out of seven times, NYT thinks

so.

[Jesus H. Christ]

82. And then there is "spawned"

which I've only seen applied to blacks, muslims, amphibians, and fish.

[bhunt70]

84. both your definitions said both, you just bolded the part you wanted.

read them again.

[AP]

90. You think I only read the bold part? I was showing what came FIRST.

Animals for rearing, and people for raising.

[bhunt70]

126. who cares which came first, both were listed.

[AP]

130. People who want to deny the obvious don't care.

[Piltdown13]

128. I know you weren't talking to me, but...

I don't think the word "reared" is applied exclusively to animals, while "raise" is applied to children; at least not in my experience. True, you don't hear the former too often in relation to kids these days...but then, IME you don't hear it much at all anyhow. I dunno, I could be wrong...I always used "raise" for both: my folks "raised" me, and my dad used to "raise" Rottweilers for sale as guard dogs. But then, it doesn't really matter what the truth is concerning the usage of these words; if people find it offensive, then perhaps more sensitivity is in order.

[AP]

131. I never said "exclusively." The NYT wouldn't be that blatant. This is ...

...subtle but overt racism.

And this isn't about "sensitivity" or feelings. This is about CBS trying to sublty infuse the uwary public with the idea that black people are animals that harsh punitive measures are appropriate, so lets keep building prisons, and moving to white-only neighborhoods which require more gas to drive to, and lets buy those big SUVs to protect us from the dangerous world.

It's about MONEY and electing republicans. It's not about sensitivity.

[Piltdown13]

132. Look, I was ONLY talking about the "reared" issue

I did not say or imply anything about the CBS story juxtaposition, nor was I talking about the NYT's usage of the word "reared" -- I was making a more general point about the overall usage in my experience. So, I think we are talking past each other here -- I was not implying that you claimed NYT always uses reared to refer to nonwhites but never to whites. All I was trying to say was that "reared" does not apply exclusively to animals in general usage -- maybe the NYT is subtly trying to make this link, I haven't really looked into it, and I wouldn't make that assumption unless I had.

I also did not say this was about sensitivity, and I hope that's not what you got from my post. I tried to communicate that if it is considered to be offensive to use the word "reared" with respect to only one group of kids (nonwhites), then writers should be sensitive (meaning understanding) of that fact and use a different word.

As it happens, I agree with you about the story juxtaposition; even if the person who put the stories in that order didn't realize what they were doing, someone should have realized what was happening and stopped it. Sorry I didn't put that in my original post; I was trying to respond to just the language issue, like many other people upthread. I did not miss the point of the entire thread, I was simply replying to one "sub-issue" that was brought up.

[alarcojon]

24. My two cents

I'll withhold commentary on the specific stories here, since I didn't see them myself. However, I WILL unequivocally back AP in the sense that I have seen many, many stories over the years where a racist slant is obvious to me, but not obvious to my white friends and colleagues.

I'm sure that in some of these instances, I may have "read too much" into the story. I would only comment that one of the effects of racism is to make you wonder about things like this. I don't WANT to see racism in these stories - It is part of the damage racism has caused me.

I hope some of you understand what I'm trying to get at.

[AP]

27. Thanks.

[goclark]

30. Racism Is Not Usually Noticed

It is true that minorities generally notice racism quicker than others. Without a doubt, we are more sensitive to situations that time and time again have offended us.

That said,I fault the media for this because if they had more minorities in key positions(not the Condi type)that could pull their coat tails on things like this,the situations could be avoided or limited at best.

Another way to look at it is at the DU. Don't we know instantly when someone (O'Reilly comes to mind) says something on TV about our favorite candidate or plays up GWB? We feel it immediately and it hurts like hell. It becomes a quiet or not so quiet rage.

I salute my fellow posters on DU for keeping discussions like this at a high level. It needs to be discussed so that we stay in touch with the realities of life. At DU we seem to educate each other to make this a better world.

[Catherine Vincent]

28. You're not alone in your assumptions.

In this thread a poster suggested racial overtones in the video:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1116204

[Heyo]

32. I can't say I see the racism..

.. in them running a story about a bunch of kid beating up another kids on a school bus. I believe the story focused on why the bus driver didn't do anything to stop or or try to get help. I have heard and read about this story from a few places, nowhere did it focus on the being black, most stories didn't even mention what ethnicity the kids were.

Is the implication that this would have been treated if they were white kids? Is it because of the story that this station ran immediately after?

Where is the racial aspect of this?

-Heyo

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[Jesus H. Christ]

38. Tried e-mailing the NAACP?

Just to let them know what you think?

[AP]

41. Why, because I'm getting so much resistance from white DU'ers???

I suspect the NAACP knows about this shit.

It's white DU'ers whose minds need to be opened.

I'm not going to, um, ghettoize this information.

[Heyo]

46. Im still trying to figure out..

.. what the major racist issue is here.

Now I haven't seen this particular story, but I'm open minded, and totally anti-racism.

Specifically, is it the story that was run right AFTER this story about the dogs, perhaps creating a perceived subtle link, that is the issue being perceived as racist here?

Is it something about the way the story itself was portrayed?

Not trying to be inflamatory, just trying to understand what the major gripe is.

I saw a few different pieces on this incident, and didn't see anything racist invloved with it, whatsoever.

I am not down with ANY form of racism, whatsoever, but I am also against cryihg racism where there is none. (not saying that that's what's happening here)

Heyo

[AP]

47. You ask a few questions that I've answered above. Are you reading my posts

?

Why defend CBS so passionately if you're not clear about the accusations?

[Heyo]

49. Hang on a sec..

Where did I defend CBS?

Also, reading to see if I missed a post by you.

Heyo

[Jesus H. Christ]

51. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

I'd let them know anyway. For the sake of redundancy. The more attention it gets, the more something might be done about it. It would probably be easy to commission a study into this. All you have to do is get a college kid to count all the animal references and compare it to stories involving white kids getting in fights. I suspect there'd be major discrepancies, then they'd have some 'splaining to do.

Fuck the ignorant white DUers. They're not part of the solution so they're part of the problem. This white DUer gets it.

You shouldn't ghettoize this information. That's what I'm saying. Tell the people best equipped to deal with institutionalized racism.

[AP]

54. The major media isn't going to stop it's subltle pro-Republican project

nor will it stop it's overt pro-Republican project.

The only thing we can do is talk about it out in open and get people sensitized to the issues.

I'm talking about this in the right forum.

[Jesus H. Christ]

56. Look, I agree with you.

I'm saying we should actually do something about it and make enough noise as we can.

Yes, this is in the right forum. It just can't die here.

[Ksec]

53. I believe people who scream racism

are the ones we should be looking at. Pandering is unattractive and its racist in itself. How anyone can say a film like that is racism is comical. You weaken the word when you abuse it.

[AP]

55. I believe I'm am so incredibly right about this. I believe this is part of

project in major media to encourage people to vote for Republicans that is going to come on hot and heavy for the next 9 or 10 months.

[Catherine Vincent]

63. You could be right.

I figured yesterday would be the only day we'd hear about it. But they were still rehashing it today on the networks. I say thank goodness the victim wasn't white because lord knows how many days this video would have been aired.

[tobius]

87. that's obvious. but because your feelings aren't validated here why

start accusing posters here of being white because they disagree with you? I'm not white and think your sensitive antennae would be better served directed at issues that
have more impact than banning the use of the word "reared '.

[AP]

122. It's funny how this is the one issue on DU you can talk about where so

many people will come out of the woodwork to tell you your opinion is wrong and that you're not seeing what you think you're seeing.

People can say Bush plotted 9/11 and maybe one person will say, "c'mon", but I say my local CBS station and the NYTimes have a problem with race and I'm misperceiving things?

That's an interesting pattern.

[tobius]

134. possible racist conspiracy at DU..? is that the pattern your referring to?

if that is the "interesting pattern" your seeing, then of course I would understand how you see "the man" arranging newscasts to convince people that minorities should be put to death. I'll just move along now....

[AP]

144. comprehension is not required for cooperation

[Catherine Vincent]

59. Can you at least read and try and understand what the original

poster is feeling about this video and the way his local station set up the story lines?

[AP]

76. I think the people who are saying this isn't a problem

know that it is.

[Llewlladdwr]

94. I think...

that the problem here is not what you think it is. AP has already demonstrated that 'reared' is a valid way to refer to the act of bringing up a child. Is it AP's preferred word? Apparently not, but it's still a valid (indeed, according to some sources the primary) way to refer to the act. To me this is a prime example of looking hard to find offense in a non-offensive statement.

[ursacorwin]

95. AP- i feel your pain

american racism is so different than homophobia today, santorum's dog is directly understood for the hatred-driven smear that it is but try to get folks to see how nonwhites are characterized in 000s of similar, not-so-subtle ways in the media and you're told you're too sensitive.

look folks, it's just more complicated than someone always yelling "nigger" and making it easy for you to percieve their racism. speak to southerners, or northerners for that matter, who are white and move in circles where there are no nonwhite faces. that's when the coded language is set aside. for all other times, racism is understood and transmitted in countless double entendres, phrases which are evocative of imagery and history understood from its racist context. we all understood what trent meant, didn't we? in this case, he was just a bit too blunt. interesting that folks don't want to see the pattern here, lacking an easily identified agent.

Nothing- i mean that, not one second- gets on tv without being put there deliberately. it's not always the same people making the same decisions for the same reasons, but every second of tv is processed, contextualized, poll tested...i could go on. the media manipulation is a high stakes game, and if you don't understand this i'd start by doing some reading on the people who actually *make* tv. it's not always who you think, and following the money is downright bloodcurdling.

but i digress. the racism of AP's original point is very clear to me. subtext: blacks=dogs. if that's too hard to understand, try imagining what you'd feel if you were a nonwhite person, as i am, and seeing that kind of "nonrelelvant" association 24/7 if i bother to watch the mainstream media. it's really tiresome, all these coincidences...

[KamaAina]

86. Question: Where is this affiliate located?

I'm gonna guess that it's owned by one of two or three really, really evil RW station groups. The fact that another DUer may have seen the same story in a different city gives me an idea which one.

[s33]

88. hehe

I could imagine this whole thread as a comedy skit on Dave Chappelle's show.One of the few decent American shows we get here.You're comedy gold and dont even realise it.Your vigilance may be misguided,but its strong!

[AP]

91. "misguided"? And you think this kind of stuff is only good for laughs?

OK.

[Jesus H. Christ]

92. Please explain what's funny about it.

Where's the punch line.

[Llewlladdwr]

97. It's like the scene in 'Boomerang'.

Where Martin Lawrence is complaining because a waitress offers him asparagus spears as a vegetable choice. "Did you hear that? She said spears! Like in spear chucker! If I was a white guy she would have said asparagus tips."

[devinsgram]

93. Mine is so pro Bush I can't stand to watch them.

They also advertise for Rush, Savidge and the rest of those radio wacko's. They are owned by Clear Channel, need I say more.

[tobius]

98. see this post started last night-racists?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1116204

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

107. I think that the reason that you've not replied to this message...

...since I posted it a few minutes ago, means that you know it's true.

[AP]

117. wrong.

Better let Tavis Smiley know.

[LoZoccolo]

121. OK I'll try again, without sarcasm this time.

Someone may try to say that because you use the word "black" instead of "African-American", it is disrespectful, as the color black is often used as a symbol of evil in our culture, and very few people have skin that's that dark anyways. This is a pretty common idea, as I don't think they would have started using "African-American" if they couldn't find anything wrong with the word "black". NOTE: I'm not actually accusing you of this disrespect. What I'm saying is, you should be careful of making this accusation, as you can see it's not very difficult for someone to make an unfair* accusation against you - a more commonly used accusation than "you put one thing next to another so you must have meant something by it" at that.

*I am not seriously accusing you of racism. The whole point is that an unfair accusation can easily be made.

[AP]

127. I'm very comfortable using the word "Black"

But thank you for your concern.

I think if anyone wants to discredit this argument on the basis of that claim, it'll just help the argument appear even more credible. (If that'ts the best someone can come up with...)

[LoZoccolo]

133. I'm not discrediting your argument with mine.

Your argument already isn't credible by virtue of simple lack of evidence. I'm just trying to drive another point home to you - you yourself would not want to be accused of something based on an argument with the same lack of evidence.

[AP]

143. Evidence is actually the thing of which I have oodles. 8 of 9 stories

subtantiate my claims.

[LoZoccolo]

145. Please try to pay attention. I wasn't talking about the New York Times.

Don't get in so many simultaneous arguments that you lose track of who's talking about what. Pick a handful and let the others watch.

The eight out of nine stories is disingenous too. If you really wanted to prove something, you'd have to do something like go through a year's worth of stories and count every one and discount things like one reporter using one word and another using the other consistently for every story. You can't just remember eight that fit your scheme and not even look through or sample from all the others and call it a day. Every now and then I'll come across a link to some racist site that'll highlight a few news stories about non-whites committing some crimes and use that as an excuse to advocate bigotry - this NYT argument of yours seems to follow the same method.

You can't just put up a flimsy argument and accuse everyone of disingenous charges and ulterior motives for calling you on it. If you want to know someone's reasons for getting angry about this, at least ask them first. By no means would you yourself ever want to be accused of something under those conditions, and that's reason enough to discount your argument.

[AP]

175. If one reporter did it once, I think it's worth at least having a...

...discussion about it.

That it was so easy to find examples confirming my theory about how the NYT imagines the difference between these words was just icing on the cake.

And if you want a book-length argument about how bad the NYT is on race (based on extensive research of their own archives, and which is the product of a masters thesis for the Columbia School of Journalism, I encourage you to read the Hearts of Darkness book I've cited throught this thread.

[LoZoccolo]

183. This is a joke.

There are racist sites which like to point to stories about African-American males committing crimes as supporting their agenda - by your logic these hand-picked examples would warrant a discussion promoting segregation or whatever agenda they would push. You pick a few examples of something that you say would support your thesis, but you ignore any data or overall survey of the content of The New York Times that would not support your thesis, plus this whole thing is moot as per the citation from the AP stylebook. NOTE: I am not accusing you of racism yourself - only pointing out that your logic would lead to conclusions that you would disagree with.

[LoZoccolo]

184. Not only that...

...you were citing a statistic up there, eight out of nine. Do you now admit that your statistic was wrong?

[JasonBerry]

113. Better let BET know!....N/T

[AP]

120. Yeah. That's funny.

Black people watch BET. I get it.

[bluestateguy]

109. The kid in Jacksonville, Fl who was beat up was black

and I'm sorry but those kids should be permanently expelled from school and thrown into an ADULT prison for a few years.

I have zero tolerance for bullying.

[JasonBerry]

112. Keep looking!

Keep looking for racism. When you *really* find it - let us know. That isn't racism and your insinuation just might be.

[ArkDem]

114. OUTRAGE!

They should have their license revoked, TODAY!

[knight_of_the_star]

115. ok...

I think you're reading too far into this one.

[AP]

116. I think I'm definitely NOT.

I think I have their number.

[cboy4]

147. From the Associated Press stylebook:

raised, reared: "Only humans may be reared.
"All living things, including humans may be raised."

[AP]

149. Two questions.

You have a link for that?

Why is it that in the NYTimes, "reared" seems to be used as a perjorative (black kids accused of crimes, terrorists, hick democratic candidates, and to describe an epoch when political disarray replaces an era of romaticism), yet, kids in Cold Spring, and the children of people who love literature, and the grand children of famous people are raised?

[Muddleoftheroad]

152. AP

The AP Stylebook is not online.

Again, you are firsthand witness to the crime of sloppy copy editing. Nothing more.

[AP]

154. Scan the page, download it to the web, and let me see it, or give me an

ISBN number so I can look it up myself.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

156. are you ever going to acknowledge that I used a DICTIONARY?

just a little fed up with you asking things of others when you won't admit when you were wrong...

theProdigal

[AP]

158. Someon up there used a Thesaurus not a dictionary. If it wasn't you,

so be it. But you still have to account for the rest of your argument.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

159. looks like the whole style-book issue may take care of that

sorry I did not have access to it. And your thesaurus rant was in a subthread in which I was posting definitions with you.

You know, it looks like no matter what is shown to you or what is argued by others here, you will continue to have your issue with the term reared. So be it...arguments like yours are the very arguments that give people ammunition AGAINST real racism...

theProdigal

[AP]

160. Give me any info so I can confirm there IS an AP stylebook. And how do

you know what it says if you don't have access to it?

And who can deny the fact that in all stories but one cited "rear" is used for low class people, criminals, minorities and terrorists, and raise is used for everyone esle.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

162. now you are questioning the existence of a stylebook...

http://www.ap.org/pages/order.html

THE AP STYLEBOOK
Edited by Norm Goldstein

The journalist's "bible," the style manual is an essential tool for all writers, editors, students and public relations specialists. It provides guidelines on spelling, capitalization, grammar, punctuation and usage, with special sections on business and sports. Included is a guide on media law, with practical guidelines on libel law, privacy, copyright and access to places of information, and a special section on Internet and computer terms, a comprehensive effort to unify spelling and usage of computer-related terms, from Web site and e-mail to URLs and "cyber-" prefixes. This segment also offers Internet searching tips and cautions.

General Orders ($12.50)
College Bookstores ($10.50) -- register for discount
AP Members ($7.75)
Shipping (all orders): $4 for up to nine books, $8 for shipping 10 books or more

Geez...I guess someone would risk being proved wrong by quoting it...I don't know who that is up there, but I have no reason to doubt that they would not post a lie...

theProdigal

[AP]

163. Now, how about a page number?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

164. you asked me to prove it exists...

[AP]

165. OK. I'll look it up. For sake of clarity, what are you claiming it says?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

167. i claimed nothing...CBOY4 did at the opening of this subthread

[AP]

168. got that. You know that conflicts with the dictionary definition which

says that animals can be reared.

[AP]

169. Incidentally, I did a little research and found that 'reared' is the term

british used to use to describe bringing up children. That's the british who used to think of kids as little monsters.

In America in the last century when the attitutdes towards children changed, raised became the word to describe what you did with children.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

172. it's a stylebook NOT a dictionary...

it is for STYLE not DEFINITION.

DAMNIT...

[AP]

176. What's your point? Reporters aren't bound by definitions?

They're only bound by the style book?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

178. last post...

a stylebook goes beyond the definition. where rear and raise are words that can be used to describe the upbringing of offspring, the stylebook (according to the post by CBOY4) limits the use of the word 'rear' to the description of upbringing of human children. it is meant so that the AP can have a consistent approach when delivering stories...it limits which word an AP writer can use when BOTH might otherwise be appropriate...

But I know this won't clear it up for you...thanks for the discussion, hopefully in the future you and I can find some common ground.

theProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

180. Dictionaries are meaningless

Newspapers follow stylebooks.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

171. you know...I guess I should stay out of situations like this

because people like you cannot be convinced they are wrong nor admit it when they are. It doesn't matter if several people show up and give personal experience that your stance is wrong. It doesn't matter if someone trots out dictionary definitions that prove your stance is wrong. It doesn't matter if someone quotes the AP stylebook (i believe he quoted correctly but cannot prove it as i don't have access to said book) to prove you wrong...and the list would go on and on and you would continue to shout "RACISM"...it is the people like you, who charge racism with no foundation other than their feelings, that dilute the issue. You base your whole argument on 8 stories that you have been able to find that don't even prove your point; they may prove a perjorative bias but NOT racism. And the sad part is, the NYT and AP have written hundreds of thousands of stories over the years and doubtless there are innumerable instances where the two words in question werer used...and you pick 8 (that really don't prove racism) to prove your point...

I'm done. Thanks for raising my blood pressure...
theProdigal

[AP]

173. My mother never ever said to me "I reared you..." When I read that in the

NYT about an adopted black kid convicted of a crime in GA...and then to describe a black athlete convicted of a crime in FL...and then a hick Dem candidate...and a terrorist ... and to describe the politically liberal era that follwed the wane of romanticism, and then read the word "raised" to describe the children of wealthy, white Cold Spring NY, and the children of a teacher of "literature" (not just "a high school english teacher, or whatever")...


well you get the picture.

And if you want to know about the NYT and race, read that book I keep mentioning.

[Llewlladdwr]

161. Online version

Available here: http://www.apstylebook.com/

Of course, it costs $20 for a subscription, so you can always use that as an out.

[AP]

166. There's an online versiona available to college journalists, and other.

Anyone here have access.

You can clear this up.

[Llewlladdwr]

170. Got a link?

NT

[AP]

174. You need a license. Do you work for someone with a license?

The login is to the right on this page: http://www.apstylebook.com/

[Llewlladdwr]

181. Unfortunately no.

Anyone else?

[Muddleoftheroad]

182. OK, here goes nothing

TRY A LIBRARY. GO TO BARNES & NOBLE.

Geez.

[thebigidea]

177. this is hilarious! Reminds me of Coulter's misleading LexisNexis searches

My favorite part was the questioning if the AP stylebook exists. Thanks for the laughs!

[Deja Q]

179. While you have a point, isn't this a loose association?

What if it was a story about white kids beating up white kids?

Or a man squashing a mosquito?

Sometimes a cake is just a cake. You might be looking into things too much, though I can't blame you for doing so...