Haiti -- this is as bad as Venezuela. Where's the outrage?

[AP]

The US is trying to help a sweat shop-owning fascist overthrow a democratically-elected leader. This is sick beyond belief.

Do people understand what's going on?

Listen to this, if you don't:

Thursday, February 12, 2004
Today on Flashpoints: Is the US actively participating in the destabilization of the duly-elected government of Haiti, which could lead to a bloodbath? And Distorted Morality, a brand new AK Press DVD featuring Noam Chomsky on the endless US war on Terror


http://209.81.10.18:80/data/20040212-Thu1700.mp3

[AP]

1. This is so much more important than AWOL.

[Terwilliger]

2. It's like the Drug War

there isn't anybody against it, so nobody seems to care that it's wrong

[SoCalDem]

3. Haiti's got no oil.. just poor people and red dust

:(

[Product of Evolution]

4. You'd think people in Haiti would be well off...

After all, Haitian-American lobby groups have the time and money to sue videogame publishers.

:puke:

[SoCalDem]

5. Have you been there?? I have.. It's like what we could become

(on a larger scale, of course)..

They have ultra-rich.. and dirt poor.. not much in between..

That's a recipe for turmoil.. Just the kind of "opportunity" that adventure-capitalists love..

[Product of Evolution]

6. I know...

I just don't understand why Haitian-American groups are more concerned about censoring videogames than about working to solve these problems.

[SoCalDem]

8. They do the "easy" thing.. Some problems are so HUGE,

ennui takes over and nothing gets done..

My house is a mess, I don't know where to start, have no place to put the extra stuff, don't want to throw things away, so... I just live with the mess and complain that my house is a mess :)

[AP]

13. The guy Bush likes in this fight owns sweat shops.

[Granite]

40. I was thinking the same thing

No oil, no "evil dictator threatening Americans with WMD's", nothing to perpetuate the fear that Bush needs to win reelection, and little rile the consciousness of the public.

For the Bush administration, Haiti might as well not even exist.

[Charlls]

7. i think i miss your point here

what is what you are arguing here again please? :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

9. Did you listen to the link??

It explains it :)

[G_j]

10. I thought I just heard on BBC

that the US said "they didn't want a change in leadership".

Of course we know what'they' and say and what 'they' do can be quite different.

It's a sad thing, it sounds also like food is very scarce and there is a lot of hunger.

[AP]

16. BBC is part of the problem when it comes to imperialism.

They NEVER tell the truth about what America's doing in Africa and Central & SAmerica.

[brads]

11. I agree - this is another attempt at a Venezuela-style coup

Hopefully Aristide is as adept as Chavez at fending it off.

One good source on US intervention in Haiti is Stan Goff (Master Sergeant, US Army, Special Forces (Ret.) who wrote a book about his experiences from the US intervention in Haiti in 1994 called "Hideous Dreams: A Soldier's Memoir of the US Invasion of Haiti". The info on the book is here.

[Charlls]

12. excuse me guys

but for a moment it seems that you are actually supporting Aristide??

tell me im wrong

on edit: And it seems a bit far-fetched.. so now, everywhere there is discontent against a government, is because US is behind it??

[Sandpiper]

14. Yeah, what a crazy tinfoil hat idea

That the U.S. would be trying to destablize a foreign government to install a regime more to our liking. I mean, it's not like we've been doing this for the past 50 years. Oh wait, yes we have.

[Charlls]

18. ill do the question more slowly

everywhere people riots against a government, is because US is behind?



... so everytime a bomb explodes, is because Osama is behind it?
everytime a black man gets killed, is a racial/drugs/gang thing?



i assume you see the failing thought process here?

[AP]

25. I'll do this slowly: did....you.....listen.....to.....the.....link???????

Take your time answering.

[Zinfandel]

34. Clinton supported the regime with aid Bush cut it...the corporations want

their slave labor back. And Bush will do all he can to help, no aid means no food, people riot...in steps right wing pigs.

Or do you think Bush is too caring and noble to allow this same old shit by the CIA, that they been doing to poor country after poor country since 1948.

[AP]

15. Listen to the story and tell me if you believe what you've read

about Aristide.

Maxine Waters says the AP stringer in Haiti is an old friend of Duvalier's who constantly lies about the situation. She says that she's asked Powell for evidence of any of the claims against Aristide and none can be produces.

[alittlelark]

19. Flashpoints always gets it right!!

Dennis Bernstein may be high-strung, but, damn he's passionate about human rights and American duplicity.

[AP]

20. He's actually screwed up one or two stories, but he's mostly great.

[Charlls]

23. Aristide is like Chavez

which is like Somoza (which was supported by the CIA) which is like Castro (which was initially supported by the CIA) which is like Pinochet (which was supported by the CIA)


all these guys have a thought in common


"the ultimate responsability of a leader, is preserve power, no matter the cost"

[AP]

24. You couldn't be more wrong. Have you listened to the story yet?

[Minstrel Boy]

21. "for a moment it seems that you are actually supporting Aristide??"

Sure. I do.

"And it seems a bit far-fetched.. so now, everywhere there is discontent against a government, is because US is behind it??"

We're not talking the abstract and universal. We're talking Haiti. Do you know the history of US intervention in that country? Once, I even had cause to applaud it, when Clinton restored Aristide's democratic government. That, at least, was righting a wrong.

[Charlls]

26. how many years have been Aristide in power?

so how is that democratic?

would you tolerate a guy soo many years in power in your country? sure you wouldnt. then Why the hell you expect people in other countries to tolerate it??

you are too condescending with these countries. Let me tell you something; in Haiti people can get pissed off too, guess what? just like you

[AP]

27. Care to listen to the stories?

How many times will you make me ask?

Do you think a sweat shop owning coup-leadin fascist is a good alternative to someone the people elected?

[Charlls]

29. coup leading fascist where?

Haiti is submerged in a rioting revolt, there sure are groups in the opposition that can be even worse about human rights violation than what it is Aristide, in this i may agree with you

I cannot hear the mp3 right now, ill do it in the morning

[Minstrel Boy]

28. not following you

What does Aristide's length of time serving as president have to do with whether or not his government is a democracy?

He's been president for 10 years or so, less his time in exile after a military coup. And he was democratically elected, wasn't he?

We had a Prime Minister retire recently who served 10 years. Lot of people were tired as hell of him, but he kept getting elected. I never voted for the guy, but neither did I attempt his violent overthrow.

But that you equate Aristide and Chavez with Somoza and Pinochet tells me I'm a fool for even responding to you.

[Charlls]

30. OEA and Carter observers all alledged

the supposed "democratic" elections where all plagued by fraud


is that important?

[AP]

32. Maxine Waters said that state dep couldn't prove any of those allegations

She also says the AP stringer is an old friend of Duvalier's and she thinks she (?) lies in her stories and that there's no other reporting on Haiti.

Do you have a link for the OEA/Carter claim?

[Charlls]

33. i cant find the Carter one

but here is one of the OEA

http://www.upd.oas.org/EOM/Haiti/haitiobservation200010.htm

[lostnfound]

35. Beware the propaganda campaign against Aristide.

I had my doubts too, having heard some NPR reports that didn't sound too good about Aristide.

But I've heard enough now from Pacifica that I definitely think that the US government 1) has made it impossible for him to succeed in governing Haiti and 2) is destabilizing Haiti by funding and organizing the opposition.

From In These Times: "Unlike Aristide, the opposition lacks popular support and seems more bent on ousting Aristide than reaching any electoral compromise."

From a letter by Charlie Hinton, Haiti Action Committee in San Francisco, published in In These Times (Mar 04): "The intransigent opposition -- partly composed of former authoritarian (read Duvalierist) and elitist (read ruling class) elemetns with disturbing ties to the International Republican Institute is preventing the elections by refusing to appoint any members to the Provisional Electoral Council, which oversees elections, because they know they will lose. No electoral council, no elections."

The US is enforcing an economic aid embargo against Haiti; at the same time the World Bank & IMF have cut off loans. Loan cutoffs can be the result OR the cause of instability..but there's no excuse for the former, other than to weaken the country and destabilize the government.

[AP]

37. I think it's no coincidence NPR is doing a (racist) series on VODOO this

week as this story breaks.

As for the OAS claim above, JudiLyn found this:

Ms. Lydia Polgreen
New York Times
New York, New York

Dear Ms. Polgreen:

I write to you and your editors because of numerous factual errors contained in your story on the January 1st celebrations in Haiti marking the 200 anniversary of that country's independence. I assume that the factual errors arose from your lack of familiarity with the political situation in Haiti or because you have been provided a good deal of misinformation. The article that I will address below was published on Friday, January 2, 2004 in the International section of the New York Times.

First, your article states that: "Mr Aristide was re-elected to the presidency in voting that many observers said was flawed" and that as result "the country had been locked in political crisis." You further stated that: "The dispute led international donors to suspend $500 million in aid." These statements are inaccurate. Such erroneous statements regarding Haiti often arise from the common confusion between the May 2000 parliamentary elections and the November 2000 presidential election. In May, 2000, there were 30,000 candidates who ran for 7,500 positions ranging from mayors and department representatives to Senators and members of the lower chamber. Of the 7,500 elections, the Organization of American States challenged the methodology used in counting 8 senate seats. While the independent electoral council (called the "CEP" in Haiti) claimed that the methodology used in counting the victors in those elections had been used in previous elections, the OAS observers disagreed. The OAS report is clear that there were no credible allegations of wide spread fraud in the elections.

In any event, no responsible international organization or observers contended that Mr. Aristide's election which occurred in November, 2000 was invalid or tainted in any manner as you suggested in your article. I invite you to review the OAS reports. It was clear in November, 2000 that Mr. Aristide's election was not marred by fraud or allegations of impropriety. (snip)

http://www.peacehost.net/EPI-Calc/haiti3.htm

which is discussed in the LBN thread on the same issue: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=362052

[Loonman]

45. Maybe you need to speak to a Haitian

Find out what really goes on in that country.

[AP]

47. Give us your friends' email address, and let's find out

what's really happening.

[Loonman]

50. Email?

Don't make me laugh...

[Minstrel Boy]

17. NYT: "U.S. stance has parallel in Venezuela crisis"

As the Haitian crisis deepens, with violence flaring and President Jean-Bertrand Aristide locked in an impasse with his opponents, the Bush administration has placed itself in the unusual position of saying it may accept the removal of a democratic government. The stance recalls the administration's initial response to the April 2002 coup attempt against another elected, populist leader, President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela. American officials touched off an outcry by appearing to blame Chávez for the uprising and consulting with his would-be successors.

Richard Boucher, the State Department spokesman, said Tuesday that "reaching a political settlement will require some fairly thorough changes in the way Haiti is governed, and how the security situation is maintained." A senior State Department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that the administration favored dialogue to ease Haiti's crisis, but that it might support replacing Aristide, who has two years left in his term. "When we talk about undergoing change in the way Haiti is governed, I think that could indeed involve changes in Aristide's position," the official said.

Administration officials stopped short of calling for Aristide's resignation, but their remarks were seen as emboldening a widening and unwieldy opposition - including former supporters, armed gangs, demobilized army members and political foes - that seeks his removal.
http://www.iht.com/articles/129317.html

[AP]

22. Maxine Waters said this article was a trial balloon to see if Americans

would object to an overthrow.

If people don't shout at Powell about this, they're going to let this coup happen.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Judi Lynn]

36. Thanks for the info., AP

It's good seeing a few DU'ers really are watching what's going on.

It'll be great when there are MORE people doing their homework, learning about what has been happening in this hemisphere. No time like the present!

It's easy to see how confused people can get when they don't pay attention.

[AP]

38. Thanks for doing all the hard work over at...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=362052

[Loonman]

39. Aristide is a corrupt and evil man

If you speak out against him, you get killed or arrested. Or both.

Aristide is incredibly rich, while most of the country has crushing poverty, no fresh water, and an unreliable power grid.



Chavez is just a garden-variety commie.

[AP]

41. On what are you basing this opinion. The lies of the media?

[Loonman]

42. No, I have close friends who are Haitians

I know exactly what goes on in that fucked-up country.

"duly elected" Puh-leeze.......

[AP]

43. Are they rich or poor?

In the revolution will not be televised there's a scene where the residents of a gated community are told lies about Chavez to get them all worked up and afraid.

[Loonman]

44. Poor-"ish", like 98% of the country

Why are you defending a rapscallion like Aristide?

He's never going to leave office, either. If Haiti is a "fair democracy", I'm a Chinese jet pilot.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Guy is a criminal.

[AP]

46. Bush is trying to insall fascists. I'm worried.

What do your "poorish" friends do in Haiti and do they have email?

[Loonman]

48. Bush is not trying to "install fascism"

Email in Haiti? Don't make me laugh....nobody can afford a computer, there, and power and phones are too unreliable


Rebels are fighting to take their country back.

Aristide's thugs cut the phones and power, so one of my friends hasn't been able to talk to his wife or daughter since this started. If he even goes back to Haiti, he'll be thrown in jail right away.

I say "poorish", because poor is a pretty weak term in Haiti when only Aristide and his posse have money.


My friends from Haiti emigrated to the US because it sucks so bad down there.

It is essentially lawless, you have to pay the cops to investigate robberies, and murders are never investigated at all.

Trust me, Haiti is a shithole. Talk to a Haitian, any Haitian in the US.

[AP]

49. So, you're taking the word of people who are in the same position as

say the Cuban exiles who hate Castro?

Can we get your friends in an email exchange so that we can get to the bottom of this?

[Loonman]

51. There is no email there

Except for Aristide and his goons.

[lostnfound]

52. AP was asking about your friends HERE -- the ones that emigrated..nt

[AP]

53. Which means that your HEARSAY evidence, and the reporting of pro-Duvalier

AP stringers are our source of information, which is a big problem.

And lostandfound is right. I'm asking about your friends here.

[Loonman]

54. Why don't you seek out some Haitians

You've already made it abundantly clear that you don't believe a word I say, nor do I believe you would take what someone says in an email at face value.

Haitian immigrants live all over the US, go find some and talk to them.

You'll be surprised.

[AP]

56. Who's that playing guitar?

[Charlls]

57. she's hot, isnt she?

from what i've discovered with google:images search, shes the bassist of a group called Xymox

[Judi Lynn]

55. Hello, AP. I just found a name which looks worth researching

when anyone gets the time. I know it's going to be on my list:
EMANUEL CONSTANT

(Until some even more alarming crisis causes us to start reading, most of us never set aside time to educate ourselves on what's going on ANYWHERE!)

(snip) Haiti is a progressive country, the electors poor and marginalized and do not vote the way giant companies want them to.. Lavalas opponents want to re-institute the Haitian military.. opposed by Lavalas, because historically the army has been predatory, torturing, killing, stealing.. connections between the head of the pre-1990 Haitian death squads led by Emanual Constant trained by the CIA.. killed thousands of people.. other military leaders trained by the US.. the US seized 1000's of documents and wouldn't return them for six years.. Emanual Constant, the head of the biggest death squad living in New York.. why is the richest most powerful country in the world, ie the US, so afraid of democracy for the poor Haitian people?.. back to Ronald Reagan's *domino theory*.. a successful progressive government will get other Latin governments on board.. anytime there has been a progressive goverment in Latin America, the US sees it as dangerous.. witness now Venezuala and Brazil.. what should the OAS do?.. really end the embargo.. and stop supporting undemocratic politicians.. push for free democratic elections in Haiti.. the US should support the democratic process in Haiti, just accept that sometimes in a democracy that the people you want to win won't win..
(snip)

http://www.flashpoints.net/index-2003-06-09.html

And another item, among many:

(snip) CPTNET May 12, 1995

KILLINGS CONTINUE IN HAITI:
by CPT Members in Haiti

We just returned from a trip to the Artibonite valley, Haiti's
bread basket. We took testimony, later independently confirmed,
about a judge in Des Chappelles whose wife was decapitated after
he signed a routine document allowing a local Lavalas (Aristide's
party) candidate to run in the elections. This happened after
the previous judge was removed from the bench because, under
threats from local para-military groups, he was too scared to
sign.

The judge who signed did so under orders from the Haitian Justice
Ministry. He lost his wife for daring--in an act of simple
respect for law and order--to challenge those with guns and money
who are accustomed to usurping his bench. His killers were
those trained by the CIA under the leadership of Emanuel
Constant, whom U.S. rescued from prosecution in Haiti.

According to the May 13 Chicago Tribune Emanuel Constant who had
fled to the U. S. was arrested at the request of Secretary of
State Warren Christopher, who had said that his presence in the
country damaged U.S. interests. Constant faces deportation
hearing. (ed.) Constant was the leader of the feared para-
military force, FRAPH whose armed members are still at large in
Haiti and will continue to have significant influence over the
coming elections June 25.

In a personal appeal for support Christian Peacemaker Team
Members Duane Ediger and Lena Siegers wrote. "We need to
remember and pray for those whose suffering for truth is deep.
But not only that; we must call for fair reporting; we must
denounce our country's financial, political and military schemes
to continue domination. The mainstream media through the
filter of US Army Psychological Operations (Psyops) would have us
believe that threats and violence come primarily from the poor
majority of Haitians--those who have always been left out of
decisions--and that the US is protecting politicians threatened
by their irrational behavior." (snip)
Christian Peacemaker Teams, P. O. Box 6508 Chicago. IL
Tel. FAX [phone] e-mail [e-mail]

http://lanic.utexas.edu/la/region/news/arc/lasnet/1995/0444.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you can see, those of us who haven't kept track of things have a lot to catch up on. I'm certain most people only recognize the names of Francois Duvalier, and his son, Jean-Claude.

I only recently learned that Haiti's most beloved singer, Margaret Jean-Claude had to flee to Cuba a long time ago, due to threat to her life for her liberal political position. Would like to point out that there is a community living there, also, of other Haitians, of which we have never been told. Usually you find this kind of thing out by accident!

Lots of searching and reading ahead for anyone wanting to understand the actual situation in Haiti.

P.S. Even Machiavelli wrote that you DO NOT take for granted what exiles of a country tell you is the truth about that country!

[LoneStarLiberal]

58. Tonton Macoutes

After Duvalier left power, the highest concentrations of Tonton Macoutes (Duvalier's thug organization) could be and can be found in New York City.

The problem in Haiti is that those trying to overthrow Aristide are only slightly worse than Aristide. I'd go so far as to say that the same can be said of Chavez in Venezuela. Yes, Aristide and Chavez were both elected, and yes, the forces that are seeking to overthrow them are usually aligned with some nefarious corporate interests, but simply being elected doesn't give you the good samaritan stamp of approval.

Democracy in countries that have extensive colonial histories and where the government is on equal footing with the military and/or organized crime combined with a few rich and powerful people and a whole lot of people in poverty makes for tough times.

[AP]

60. Chavez is a committed liberal and I'm not convinced that what's going

on in Haiti isn't the same thing.

Provide evidence, if you got it.

[historian]

59. venezuela

Please let us not get into a frenzy over this disgusting parasite we have in the white house. How many people who vote for Bush even know or have heard of Venezuela? To them anything south of the border is Tijuana.
Besides look at the states bush carries - alabama, missippippi etc... hardly bastions of education and knowledge.