It Is Ugly On The Streets Of Boston - (Gay Marriage Debate In The Streets)

[matcom]

<snip>

Hours before debate on gay marriage began in the House chamber yesterday, a group of parishioners from Woburn's Anchor Baptist Church joined the crowds of 1,500 supporters and foes arguing outside the State House.

Civility quickly fell away.

The parishioners -- many of them children, some as young as 7 -- held signs that read, "Remember Sodom and Gomorrah."

A gay man argued with the group.

"God does love you," an adult parishioner told the man. Another urged him to repent.

Then the name-calling began. A black teenager in the church group yelled an antigay slur at the man. The man returned fire with a racial slur. "How do you like it?" the man said, as the boy retreated to the back of the group, shocked.

"Let him burn in hell!" yelled a girl of about 10 from the church group.

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/gay_marriage/articles/2004/02/12/dueling_chants_of_passion_venom_marked_scene_outside/

[PVnRT]

1. Lovely, kids taught to be bigots

Such wonderful parents...

[marie123]

23. It is the church

OK first things first.. God forgive me for what I am about to say

These children are learning this in their catholic school. My son goes to one and he comes home with some dillies. Our first conversation was about abortion and he wanted my view point then gave me his. oh boy! and I am a conservative

Later he came home and told me that gays are not god's children. I was so disappointed as I raised my sons not to hate. In his mind gays are not really people.

I will tell you all a secret, I know my oldest son is gay and I have no problem with it. I am just waiting for him to come out of the closet and I will be there for him.

It will certainly change my youngest son's attitude concerning gays. At least I think so

If any experience person out there wants to give me any tips on how to handle this, my mind is open

[NashVegas]

25. Good for You!

I will tell you all a secret, I know my oldest son is gay and I have no problem with it. I am just waiting for him to come out of the closet and I will be there for him.

If you really are that sure, why not bring it up? Not necessarily directed at him, but give him the opportunity while the topic is in everyone's face?

As for your younger, that kid is 1/2 into a major mind-fuck. You need to gently pry the Church's dick out of his brain, before it gets pulled out forcefully (or jettisoned) and the kid is completely disillusioned. I'm speaking from personal experience. It was devastating.

If your elder was fed the same lessons, it's crucial that you speak with him. Walking around thinking you're damned, or hating the Church with every fiber, is no picnic.

[marie123]

38. first

I have given my oldest an opening to talk to me. However, it seems to upset him when I do. Since I have never been a closet homosexual I don't know exactly what is going on in his mind. I think it is best to let him work it out his way.

My younger, well I am going with the lesser of two evils. Public schools are a disaster. Don't even tell me differently! I cant afford a "private, private, school" but I can afford a catholic school. Plus I am a catholic, but I was not raised with hate. However, I am an old Italian from Boston, and honey, there was a time when Boston held a lot of hate for Italians, so I know a little of what it is like to be hated on for no reasons.

I believe in my church, but I know my god hates no one. Not even you guys! :-)
If Jesus Christ himself comes down to me, with holes in his hands and feet and say "Marie, homosexuals are the devil" I will say "Jesus you told me to love the devil." What I know Jesus would really say is "Marie go kick some ass and really spread my word."

[grisvador]

27. Why are you sending them to this school?

I went to a Catholic school in Alabama and was never taught such trash. Catholic schools are private - if they want your money - tell them that this is unacceptable and demand that the teachers be transferred - or - start a civil action against the school - Hate Crimes Act? - YOU, have the power of a consumer in this instance.

[marie123]

39. I do have the power

I pick my fights.

Rather than pick a fight with the school, I would rather work on my son.

He is only repeating what his school says. He doesn't hate. He has never met a gay guy or gal. At least not openly. What I assume will play out is, when he goes to college he will meet all kinds of people. Some will be gays. At that time my up bringing will kick in and he will realize the imperfections of his school. And my son will see the light. Plus by that time he will know his brother is gay and of course the lord loves his brother just like he does.

[Sterling]

55. With all respect

And I mean that. You should not put your children in that kind of environment.

[LeahMira]

45. Maybe... maybe not.

if they want your money - tell them that this is unacceptable and demand that the teachers be transferred - or - start a civil action against the school

If they are anything like the Catholic schools around here, they will just mention that they have a long waiting list of students wanting to be admitted and that you might be happier with your child in another school environment.

Unfortunately, the public schools have been under so much attack (unwarranted generally, IMO) that indeed many parents are hoping to get their children into a reasonably priced private school. In this case, the school probably does have the upper hand.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

33. My nieces and nephews go to Catholic school and do not learn hate

I can't believe you're paying tuition to have this hateful agenda taught to your son.

You sound like a great mom, though, Marie. I'm sure you can "un-Learn" these attitudes from your youngest. Good luck!

[marie123]

40. not sure how old you nieces and nephews are

but this gay thing didnt start until HS.
Abortion and gays are top topics and I pay 10 grand a year for this

[LeahMira]

43. First tip...

Later he came home and told me that gays are not god's children. I was so disappointed as I raised my sons not to hate. In his mind gays are not really people.

You don't say how old your youngest son is, but young kids repeat what their teachers say without really knowing what they are saying.

But you have a choice to make yourself. The Catholic school isn't going to change its message. If you disagree with what is being taught to your son, you need to decide whether the advantages of a private school outweigh the messages being put out about gays.

Of course you know that if you contradict those messages at home, your son will say something about what he's heard at home when he's in school. Kids are like that. You might find yourself dealing with more than discussing his grades at the next parent conference.

I'd think about all these things. I personally support the public schools 100%, but I'm also honest enough to admit that some are better than others. I certainly have no clue what they are like where you live.

Truthfully, my preference would be to have a child who is accepting and respectful of all people (at least until they give him reason to be otherwise). If he learns a little less about how to write a coherent paragraph or how to do algebraic equations, I don't really care too much. I'd maybe help him at home or get him a tutor or whatever. In the things that are really important for the rest of his life, I'd want everyone who influences him to be on the same page that I am. But that's JMO.

[drdigi420]

60. seems like public school would be better

than a religious indoctrination institution

pull that kid out

religion is dangerous and evil

does more damage than drugs

almost as much damage as the war on drugs

religion is killing our country

[BR_Parkway]

2. So glad this argument is all about protecting the children

they obviously are being taught well as they are, 10yo's geeze.

I am still waiting for one of the amendments to include a BAN on divorce, since they keep claiming how much better the kids are being raised in a household with a father & a mother!

[Atlant]

3. Well, at least they won't have to worry about seeing a boob on TV.

After all, Shrub never does press conferences in prime time.

Atlant

[Sperk]

4. Whatley who is from ALABAMA!!! Go bach south where you belong!!

"We want to hold our legislators accountable," said Whatley, 25, a volunteer for the Massachusetts Family Institute, which crafted the original constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage. Whatley, who is from Alabama, said yesterday's outcome "is vital to our nation."


I am so sick of southerners coming up here and pushing their bigoted ideas on us!!!! GO back to your shack!!!!

[TreasonousBastard]

19. Well, ummm...

methinks some Southerners held similar opinions about us heading down there on the civil rights marches. Might also be a few of the locals upset at the influx of peace marchers in DC, Chicago, San Francisco and New York.

Whilst I am in full agreement with being appalled at out-of-state homophobes storming the streets of Boston, it seems to be something that everyone just has to deal with.

[trof]

22. Careful! I'm coming up there in March.

I may bring some ideas to push.
;-)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

36. Ron Crews, MA Family Institute is a former GA Legislator

Here is my thread from last night:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=749120

"I was disgusted by the expressions of hate today by the "pro-marriage" factions that they interviewed. A guy that now leads the Coalition for Marriage and Massachusetts Family Institute in Mass., Ronald A. Crews, is a former Georgia legislator.

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/1997_98/house/gash078.htm

http://www.mafamily.org/inthemedia.htm

:wtf: is he doing in Massachusetts? This evangelical, homophobic prig needs to go back home..."

On edit: he lives out in Ashland, a pretty conservative town in Mass.

[prolesunited]

5. Interesting that just like with abortion

These good "Christian" protesters have no problem verbally abusing the people they are trying to "save."

[DS1]

6. Such ugliness

[Bill McBlueState]

13. "Am I man or woman?"

What's that sign supposed to mean? I don't get it.

[DS1]

16. *smile*

Well, what is it?

(pshop I did last night)

[Bill McBlueState]

41. Looks like you passed the photoshop test!

I had no idea that had been photoshopped. Either you did a fine job, or I was having a sleepy morning. Maybe some of both. :)

[Laughing Mirror]

15. "God Made Adam + Even"

Love that little boy's sign.

[SPQR]

29. I've always wondered...

if God didn't make Steve, who the heck did?

[terrya]

That "God Made Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve" thing is one of the most

nonsensical things I've ever heard. Obviously, God DID create Adam and Steve, or else we wouldn't be having this fight.

An imbecilic slogan for imbeciles.

:-)

Terry

[Bill McBlueState]

42. and..

they don't recognize that for the trite catchphrase it is. They think parroting that passes for some kind of logical argument.

[KamaAina]

56. They better not be ripping on Adam Vinatieri!!

That will make them no friends AT ALL in Mass.!

:-)

[terrya]

18. *sigh*. I'm sure Fred Phelps and his family are there somewhere.

That is so, so depressing seeing that picture. The kid in the foreground looks to be no older than 10 or 11.

I'm sure Phelps and company are in Boston...fanning the hate.

Meanwhile, to those fundies who are behind the anti-gay marriage movement....is this what you wanted? To instill this kind of hate in children?

Terry

[La_Serpiente]

7. the public went crazy

after the 2nd amendment was defeated. Gays were elated, but the other side was screaming "Keep the legislative session OPEN!!!".

Has anyone seen a more passionate debate?

[Rockholm]

9. The Debate Continues Today.....

For all those from Massachusetts, PLEASE call your senators and state reps. They really need to hear positve or negative comments from yesterday. Speaker Finneran will be doing his best to get an amendment passed today. Today is IT. I start calling at 9 and then I am off to the State House!!!!

[polmaven]

28. I have already e-mailed

Senator Berry. Doing the same for my State Rep, however, is useless, as is she, in my opinion, as a legislator. She voted in favor of all of the amendments offered, and I expect will vote for the measure to be put on the ballot in 11/06.

She is allegedly a Democrat, but has been kissing Mr. Speaker's a** since she was elected in 2002. YYUUCCCKKKK...I couldn't even imagine kissing his head, never mind the other end.....And I think bald men, on the whole, are very sexy.

I did not see the votes on anything but the first amendment. I was at my church for our weekly bible study. The study group is lead by the pastor, who sports a bumper sticker on her car distributed by "equal marriage.org" and declares "Marriage is a Fundamental Human Right".

I resent the infusion of the religious right into the debate on ANY secular issue, just as I would resent the government trying to determine the tenets of my religion. The photos here are absolutely disgusting.

edited to add...BTW...I am a heterosexual Christian woman. We are not all like those bigots in the photos...

[LeahMira]

46. Definitely...

Those of you who are in Massachusetts need to let your legislators know that you do not favor an amendment banning gay marriage. They are hearing from these bigots loud and clear, but even legislators can count. They need hundreds of messages to counter each one of these homophobic protesters.

I'm writing my friends in Massachusetts and asking them to at least send an e-mail.

[skippysmom]

44. Yes, please contact your legislator!

I emailed mine, but I don't think it made a difference. All the oldsters on Cape Cod seem to have gotten to him first.

My state senator is voting against it, though. :thumbsup:

[Zolok]

8. Zolok sez to protect marriage

it may be necessary to destroy it...therefore any sane amendment to the State Constitution should OUTLAW marriage entirely!
THAT WILL END THE THREAT OF DIVORCE AND GAY NUPTIALS AND AND...AND...
I also favor closing the public schools and jack-hammering the public roads everyone should live of their own anyway!!!
:)
***
That crowd outside the state house is whipped up by out of state wowsers and fed with monies from elsewhere...a grim spectacle in a soverign commonwealth to be sure.
Alas, this is the consequences of electing to the Governorship an out-of-state Viceroy from Utah.
Way to go, protecting OUR RIGHTS there Mitt....you cheap dirty bastard...every one of those foul mouthed homophobes out on the common are your future subjects and constituents...I wish you the joy of them!

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[DarkPhenyx]

11. You mean like this?

Whatley, who is from Alabama, said yesterday's outcome "is vital to our nation."

They are definately organized. Still, many of the people agruing against drilling in Alaska don't live there so I really can't grouse too loudly.

[rfranklin]

17. It is vital to getting George W. Bush elected

That's what this is all about, kiddies!

This is going to be used to distract the populace from all of Georgie's screw-ups at home and around the world. The right wing religiosos will pile into the polls to vanquish those gay-loving Democrats. And many middle of the roaders will be swept along.

[LeahMira]

49. I don't know about that...

That crowd outside the state house is whipped up by out of state wowsers and fed with monies from elsewhere...a grim spectacle in a soverign commonwealth to be sure.


There are certainly out of state organizers involved, but recall that the riots against busing to integrate the schools were among their worst in Boston.

People who use "because G-d says so" to defend their own prejudices seem to gravitate to Boston. Maybe this is a way of taking the heat off Cardinal Law?

[DarkPhenyx]

10. Love this quote.

"Homosexual relationships have no proven track record of being of benefit to a society," Whatley said. "They don't produce natural children, and that is one of the purposes of marriage. It's going against natural law."

So adoptive chilren probably aren't "natural" by his definition. In vitro are also not natural.

Gee...He just love the world don't he?

[MountainLaurel]

12. And hell

What about hetero marriages that don't produce children? Are those to be considered against natural law?

[PVnRT]

26. You would think

I think their justification for not condemning those is that at least they're "trying" to have kids, or something.

Let's face it, in the end it boils down to plain ol' bigotry. They just couch it in shallow religious terms, using obscure quotes from throughout the Bible, in order to legitimize somehow.

[bowens43]

14. Apparently the opponents of gay marriage

believe that producing children is a requirement of marriage. Do they oppose marriage for those who are incapable or unwilling to reproduce? I bet not. More hypocrisy from the anti human rights crowd.

[enki23]

35. typical "natural law" crap

it never changes, nor ceases to be bullshit.

[LeahMira]

51. So what benefit...

... or proven track record is there for homophobes? Yeah. A lot of benefit they've been to society. NOT!

[Gman]

20. So where is Fred Phelps???

Surely Fred would be in the middle of all this.

[DS1]

21. Hey Matt, maybe you and I should jump in a car

and drive past the 'phobes yelling GET A JOB!!!! with our feet hanging out the window..

(at least we'd be right)

[polmaven]

31. Ooooooo...Can I ccome????

Can I??? Huh? Huh? Can I???? Please, please, pleeeeese, can I come????

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

24. This is going to be just like the "War in Witchita" over abortion

1989? When the GOP is in trouble, the Fundie Taliban ratchets up the wedge issues for a culture war. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

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[TahitiNut]

32. "Sodom and Gomorrah" was about Hospitality ...

... welcoming visitors and protecting guests. It's Old Testament stuff. These self-proclaimed "Christians" don't seem to have gotten the "good news" ("gospel") nor do they seem to even comprehend the Old Testament. For people who say they respect the "word of G-d," they sure do behave like they've never heard it -- nor want to.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. I'm going down to the State House at 12

I hope I don't get in any fights...

[ronnykmarshall]

47. Be safe RR!

Kick some butt for me!

[LeahMira]

54. Please let us know when you get back...

I'm going down to the State House at 12

You stay safe now. We'd all best see a post from you this evening or we'll get worried about you.

[Silverhair]

37. Like I have been saying: I is a very emotional issue and...

logic doesn't get to play a big part. Great wedge issue for the Reps, and I don't see a good way for us to handle it. There isn't any fence straddling position on this one. The FMA will make it a Yes/No vote and everyone will be on record. Since the Reps control all the committees, it will see a floor vote. A filibuster won't succeed as a vote against cloture will be played as a vote against the FMA & for gay marriage.

If we roll over & play dead then a signifigant part of our base will be mad enough to not vote.

If we fight it, we will lose some of our base. Look at the states that Gore barely won, and ask what would happen with only a few swing voters going to Rep over this.

[David__77]

48. Church group headed by child abuser? (News article)

This was the head of the church whose youth group were calling people faggots (or something like that) and to burn in hell.

Minister defends controversial baptisms

By The Associated Press
WOBURN -- The minister who baptized several children after members of his church enticed them with pizza and games says he's trying to help the kids.
"It's not so important to us -- it's an opportunity for them to have it," said Rev. Chris Pledger.
Mr. Pledger, along with his Anchor Baptist Church, has been widely criticized by parents. But he is defending his controversial full immersion baptisms of children, saying parents have always been welcome.
"If something happened without parental consent, it was totally against policy -- if it happened," he told a Boston newspaper.

...

The state Department of Social Services is investigating 10 child-neglect complaints, most alleging children were held and baptized against their will, the newspaper said.
There is also one allegation of sexual abuse; that a church member named "Brother Al" fondled a 10-year-old boy and another child in his car.

...

"They had us get in plastic robes with nothing underneath," 9-year-old Virginia Karakhanian said. "We had to take off all our clothes -- we didn't even have our underwears on. They took us out and dunked our head underwater."

http://204.27.188.70/daily/09-96/09-09-96/a03sr019.htm

[skippysmom]

50. lovely

And they have the gall to tell gays what to do?

[Sterling]

52. I dont see the arguement?

Only bigots think they alone are entitled to have a family and be legally recognized.

[xchrom]

53. it's time for a big ol' gay disco party

out there.
my favorite form of protest -- gets the bugs out.
some big ol speakers and some knock out house music -- some go-go boys and grrrls.
and throngs and throngs of dancing gay folk.
or thongs and thongs for you fans there of.

[KamaAina]

57. Oh, how I wish I were a Mass. legislator right now...

LEG. FORMERLY KNOWN AS KAMAAINA (D-Cambridge if he can afford it :-) ): "My dear colleagues, I submit to you that, if Massachusetts had not dared to defy tradition when it came to oppression by King George III, we would not be having this discussion today as free Americans...

In fact, we would all be speaking English..."

:-)

[Skittles]

58. people using their children to promote their bigotry

very Christian-like.

[Skittles]

59. dupe

how neighborly