the cultural aspects of private, Christian schooling

[ulysses]

for those who don't know - I'm the math teacher in a private, Christian pre-k to early-middle school in the north Atlanta suburbs. I do not call myself a Christian most days, and when I do, most others who do would disagree.

The school for which I work is desperately trying to expand which, for a business already on a thinning shoestring budget and with a low (by comparison - $5k/year) tuition, means investment capital. They've found that capital in the relatively wealthy parents of two of my students, folks who are younger than I am by a couple of months but who (I've been assured several times, unasked, by their son) make $250k/year.

Because it'll be asked - no, I don't hate people who have more money than I do. That said, these are people who have taught their children, intentionally or otherwise, a superior attitude that they bear not only towards their fellow students, many of whom come from less affluent families, but also towards their teachers. And it's because they have money. We got a notice from the front office a couple of weeks ago directing us to not give disciplinary notes to "students who have not gotten them in the past". Who do you think that means?

Did I mention that my new co-employer has, to his kids, referred to taking a dump as "dropping off the Cosbys"? The kids told us this with no apparent sign of irony, remorse, embarassment, etc. 30-35% of the student body at the school is African-American.

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

I'm beyond the point of being able to be objective in my assessment of the situation. I just wonder how many voucher proponents have thought about whether or not they have the cash to buy preferential treatment for their kids.

[outinforce]

1. I Have A Question

I have a question.

Let me preface my question by saying that it sounds as thought your new co-employer is a racist, bigoted pig. And it also sounds as though your "front office" is elitist in the extreme.

My question: Why on Earth would you want to continue to work at such a place?

Surely your educational efforts could be better utilized elsewhere-- like in the Public School System somewhere???

[ulysses]

4. not much choice at present.

I took the job after having been unemployed for nine months. I'm trying to get into school for my certification, so that I *can* get into public schools.

[DrWeird]

13. Yikes.

Working your way up to the more lucrative career of public school teacher. I feel for you, dawg.

[Malva Zebrina]

2. See==problem is that it is a "business"

and from there on in--you are shackled. Even Christians are "shackled"

I am convinced that ignorant parents have had too much say--there is too much expectation that teachers must recognize that dumb students are indeed dumb and must give the dumb students the same grades as the ones who are not dumb--they are convinced that their little practically retarded Johnny is a genius and when his teachers tell them otherwise, it is the teacher's fault that their little Johnny does not and cannot pass the grade. They then decide to home school little dumb Johnny and his brothers and sisters. And then, they decide that paying into a public school system, where they do not have children attending is paying "twice" and why should that be?

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. You make it sound like this is unique to private schools

Come on, the public schools do their share of olay grading as well.

[ulysses]

15. private schools are being touted as the solution.

Thus, they have the burden.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. No burden at all

They can't be worse than what we have in urban districts like D.C. and Baltimore.

[ulysses]

23. why can't they?

I mean this seriously. In academic terms, why can't a private, religous school be worse than DC public schools?

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. It's just unlikely

They would almost have to work at it and combine poor education, poor facilities, limited staffing and deadly danger.

[ulysses]

32. so you recognize the problems that public schools face.

...and combine poor education, poor facilities, limited staffing and deadly danger

Kudos to you for your knowledge of what students and teachers in public schools face every day.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. So do children

And, until we are able to fix that, I want to get as many children out as possible.

[ulysses]

38. you do so

to the detriment of children you're not able to extract.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. We can't save them all

The longer they are in the horrendous schools, the more we lose. We have lost a whole generation or more already. I recognize there is no will to save them all. I would rather save some than none.

[ulysses]

43. what a wonderfully democratic notion

to consign children to the garbage heap. :puke:

No, we have not lost a generation, much less have we lost more. What a bunch of crap.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. That decision has been made

They are already on the garbage heap. It is my goal to rescue as many as possible.

Maybe YOU haven't lost a generation. The black community sure as hell has.

[ulysses]

48. who made that decision?

Tell me. Who?

Maybe YOU haven't lost a generation. The black community sure as hell has.

Has it? I know some pretty nifty black kids, and they attend public schools. And if so, please explain how that fault lies on the doorstep of the public school.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Government, taxpayers, school districts

You name it.

As for the black children we have lost, spend some time in an URBAN school district like D.C. or Baltimore. Then let me know how you feel about how many we have lost.

Have we lost them all? Of course not. But we've lost our future. It's time to stem that tide.

[ulysses]

62. "It's time to stem that tide."

By amputating a few hundred thousand children from any kind of hope in life? That's how you propose to regain a future?

Pardon me while I'm disgusted beyond previous limits.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. What hope is that?

The hope of no education and no safe place not to learn?

[ulysses]

77. you're the one saying they've already been jettisoned.

You're the one who's already given up on them.

And you still haven't told me how private schools will serve them better.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Society has given up, I just admit it

And private schools would be hard pressed to do worse.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

91. you're right.

muddle-of-the-road is not your ally, nor mine, nor anyone else who thinks that plutocracy is a bad thing for a democracy. he has demonstrated this in numerous posts on various topics.

is there any way you can get a job at another school?

And when you do, call a reporter and tell him or her about this school where you are now serving a prison sentence for good intentions?

surely the other parents, who are spending their hard-earned money to try to give their children an education, deserve to know that the administration has the policy that "some are more equal than others."

I hate Bush. I hate him for everything he's done to empower the assholes of this nation. He is a repulsive man, and the day he leaves the White House will be a day of celebration for me.

[DrWeird]

94. I hope that's not the kind of "moral values"

they're actually teaching in private schools. Lord help us all if it is.

[Taeger]

106. And they DO !!!!

http://advertisers2002.asumag.com/ar/university_edison_schools_inc/
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/living/education/4144048.htm
http://notes.nassmc.org/nbsfile02.nsf/0/4e9cad571492667e85256bbc005ab0d8?OpenDocument

http://mathforum.org/epigone/mathed-news/nenarbon
http://www.progressive.org/Media%20Project%202/mpgm1502.html

[Solomon]

83. I went to a segregated dc public school system

and then went to Ivy League and then law school. What happened to me? Hunh. I was supposed to stay in the garbage heap according to your logic. But you know what, there were just enough other "good" students around to serve as role models, just as I wound up helping others. Under your vision, we wouldn't have been there. That's what I call losing a generation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

97. And if many escape

There will still be some role models left behind.

Congrats by the way.

[Taeger]

63. Because they get to CHOOSE their students

If they had to take ALL COMERS, they'd be just as fucked up.

I support vouchers as long as voucher receivers must TAKE ALL STUDENTS. THEY CAN'T TURN ANYONE DOWN.

Furthermore, they must live by the same standards as far kicking kids out. Once they ACCEPT ALL COMERS, those kids have a RIGHT to an education at that institution. Which means they will be SUED OFTEN over fuck-ups who get suspended.

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Private schools must be as silly as public ones?

Your solution is to force private schools to make the same mistakes. That's silly.

[Taeger]

105. No ...

Public schools are tasked with educating EVERYONE whether they want to be educated or not.

Now I would support alternative schools for kids who aren't hacking traditional education, but I REFUSE to support private schools the luxury of CLAIMING their methods are superior.

Their methods ARE NOT superior. They simple have better material.

Indeed, Edison schools tried the "privatize it" model in Philadelphia. The result was a HUGE disaster. Edison wasn't interested in the students well being, they were only interested in the money. Since the pupils weren't connected to "wealthy benefactors" there was ZERO incentive for them to actually EDUCATE the students.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. exactly==it is the school's fault and the teacher's fault that llittle

Johnny, with an IQ of perhaps ten or more points below the average, is not in a "gifted" classification. He does not get the grades his parent expect from their little genius and it is the fault of the teacher!! It is ot that their little genius is below average in intelligence or cannot keep up with the agenda-it is because the teacher is not sensitive to the fact that their little genius is a genius.

It is certain that all children in the public school system need to, in order to satisfy the parents who are convinced that their child is of genious quality, are, indeed, all of genius quality.

If not--why then remove them from that awful school, and home school them and at the same time complain that they are paying taxes for the schools when they do not have a child participating in that system?

I have a good idea. HOw about everyone home school their little genius kids and protect them from the awful public school system that does not and refuses to recognize, due to the stupid and biased teachers, that their little, upper middle class, white kid, whose IQ is somewhere like ten points below average, is a genius?

[Muddleoftheroad]

In some cases it is their fault

But mostly, it is a combination of factors except in extreme cases.

Parents are to blame, schools are to blame, teachers are to blame, administrators are to blame, politicians are to blame and taxpayers are to blame.

[LincolnMcGrath]

96. You left out an opportunity to trash the UNIONS

Try to follow the newsletter!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. sounds like this has little to do with religion

and everything to do with class (and racism).

[ulysses]

7. it's all about the image, anyway.

You're right, but that's not unique in private religious schools in my experience. There's also a subtle anti-Catholic bent, although the school educates more than a few Catholic kids.

[displacedtexan]

5. Be careful!

I taught for 25 years in a very conservative district.
To people like the ones you describe, a B- is considered failing. Document absolutely every little thing every single day... and always preface any interaction with the parents with "I'm concerned because ___ has so much potential."

I know it's crap, but your political skills will need to be sharp at all times with these people.

Do your job well, get excellent evaluations, and look for another job.

And don't let the bastards eat you!

[ulysses]

8. well beyond all that.

I busted my hump from June to December. I forgot to mention that, to augment the pathetic salary, they promised a profit-sharing scheme once enrollment reached a required level - then froze enrollment below that level in late fall. We got paid late in November because of "cash flow" issues. The bonuses we were promised for performance didn't quite materialize.

[bluestateguy]

6. And this is why I oppose vouchers

The constitutional issue aside, I understand that these schools have a right to exist, but I really should not have to fund them with my tax dollars. As for the kids, not to worry, they will get their commuppance someday. Once of these days they'll shoot off their mouths in front of the wrong people and they will get their clocks cleaned. Their chickens will come to roost.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Fair enough

I have proposed this before. Starting next fall, EVERY private and parochial school child in the U.S. should sign up AND show up for public school for a while. When the public school system collapses from this new weight, perhaps then people will appreciate the parents who send their kids to private school. Perhaps then people will stop balking at vouchers.

[ulysses]

14. that would prove what?

Other than that public schools need more teachers and a better teacher:student ratio, I mean.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. It would prove how much money they save all of us

A massive amount actually and all they are looking for is a slightly better deal.

[ulysses]

24. what, exactly, do they save us

if tax dollars are going toward private school education?

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Vouchers would still only represent a portion of what they pay

That's how. And, it is my hope, there would also be a cap on income to use them as well.

[ulysses]

29. SAYS WHO?

Where do you get your numbers? From where comes this wish for income caps?

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. The wish for caps is my own

I base the numbers on the articles I have read on the subject. Please feel free to contradict them.

[alcuno]

16. When private schools are mandated to provide the same services

that public schools must, by law, provide, then I will consider the issue of vouchers for private schooling. Not one minute before. As for private school students attending public schools, I say bring them on. We already provide many services for private school students that they can't get at their schools. Can you imagine the reaction of a private school if we tried to send our special education students over there for services?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. There should be special schools for special ed

Only the most mainstream students should be in the mainstream classes.

Again, you say bring them on. The school superintendents would be terrified. They'd be holding classes in hallways and have no one to teach them.

[ulysses]

28. wrong.

The school superintendents would be terrified. They'd be holding classes in hallways and have no one to teach them.

How so? How many kids do you think you'd add to the average school load? Or are you admitting that public school teachers are already overloaded?

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Baltimore alone

I used to live in Baltimore. Here we go:

"In 1789, Baltimore became the first Catholic diocese inthe United States. Today it runs one of the country’slargest parochial school districts, with 37,000 students attending 94 elementary, middle, and high schools."

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:mRW6VLvm_uEJ:www.apple.com/education/powerschool/profiles/baltimore/pdf/powerschool_baltimore.pdf+baltimore+catholic+schools&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Baltimore City Public Schools enrollment: 103000

http://educationamerica.net/browse.phtml?sid=md&eid=448&a=eip

So, yes, a 36% increase overnight is bound to have a wee bit of an impact, dontcha think?

[ulysses]

39. ok

take those tax dollars out of public ed. How do you think the public schools will fare?

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. How do you think they fare now?

[ulysses]

44. they're struggling.

Vouchers will make it worse. But then, you've already resigned yourself to the idea that we can't save them all, haven't you?

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. Struggling?

Thanks for the euphemism. Failed in many cases is the more appropriate word.

We sure as heck don't save them all now, do we?

[ulysses]

50. your solution will save even fewer than we do now.

You do the math.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. I have

We disagree on the result.

[ulysses]

59. No, we don't disagree entirely.

You've just come to the point at which you're ready to jettison some thousands of children because they don't fit into your financial scheme, and I haven't.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. They have been jettisoned

That is the difference. I acknowledge that. I hate it, but that doesn't change reality. So, accepting reality, we must save as many as we can. Perhaps the chaos that would ensue would help us save the rest or at least future students.

[ulysses]

64. no, they haven't yet.

Public school proponents have been fighting for those kids for years, and now you come along (messiah that you are having, I can only assume, opposed more state money given to schools in the past) and declare them lost anyway, so let's do vouchers?

Fuck that. Fuck that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. I too fought for years

I fought in Baltimore. I fought in D.C. I finally moved from D.C. to a rural area because of this issue and others.

[ulysses]

87. and on the basis of your abbreviated fight,

we're to consign thousands of kids' lives to the wastebasket? Muddle, thy name is hubris.

[Muddleoftheroad]

98. Nope, my name is Tomas

But that's another story.

Actually, I want vouchers on the basis of reality. Reality is such that the urban schools suck. They have sucked. They continue to suck. Lacking a declaration of national education emergency, they will continue to suck.

Those lives and thousands more have been consigned. I seek to pull as many out as I can. Just as Schindler could not save everyone, you and I can't either. But to piddle and save no one is criminal.

[alcuno]

67. Ridiculous.

A free public education is the RIGHT of every child in this country. Your Darwinistic approach to education has already been tried back in the days when women, minorities, and the disadvantaged were denied an education. We've moved beyond it. It's time to move forward.

[Pithlet]

69. Agreed.

I don't even have anything to add. That was perfect.

[ulysses]

70. yes.

Thank you. Yes.

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. If it is the right

Then we are breaking the rules all the hell over the place.

My "Darwinistic approach" accepts the fact that we ARE NOT educating everybody already and that there is no nationwide push to do so. Rather than continue with this failed approach, I propose saving some of our children.

[Pithlet]

78. Your way has been tried.

It does not work.

http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2004/02/barnosky-j-02-06.html

No nationwide push? What do you think the whole No Child Left Behind was about? I think that most people acknowledge that it is a huge problem our nation faces. Some people are just misguided about what direction that push should occur. They're clinging to ideas that have failed miserably before, buying into the whole privatization is a cure-all panacea. Systematically destroying our already suffering public school system rather than fixing it will only deprive some children of an education, denying them a basic right that this country depends on for a flourishing society.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. No child left behind was about money

And politics, not about really helping kids.

As for trying it, a $14 million program is a joke. To make things work, you need an actual commitment of resources AND a commitment that this is not a fly-by-night operation.

[Pithlet]

85. I know what it was about, and that it is a miserable failure.

My point was that a Republican President and a Republican congress felt compelled to give at least the appearance of trying to tackle education. The only way to think that society has given up on education is to want to think that. I think you're projecting your fatalistic attitude about our children, and the public education system, on everyone else.

Those who are bemoaning and whining about the state of public education and insisting that the problem can't be fixed are suggesting solutions that will ensure it does not. That, to me, makes no sense. Fix the problem, don't turn to solutions that harm it even further, and have been proven not to work.

[Muddleoftheroad]

99. Yes, the appearance"

No real help and the schools stay the same. That is further proof for my position that the schools will not get better anytime soon.

As for fixing the problem, no one really cares. Not enough do anyhow. It's been that way since white flight in the '50s and '60s. Only it's gotten worse.

So, sorry, I'm done fucking waiting for people to wise up and save everybody. That ain't gonna happen. The time to wise up has come. If we can't save all of our young people, we are morally compelled to save some of them.

[Pithlet]

102. I think enough care.

They are just wrong on how to go about doing it. The small government Republicans were forced to spend a ton of money on the national level on education. Even as we speak, state legislatures and local communities are in an uproar because they figured out that No Child Left Behind was a scam. You take this as evidence that people don't care about education? Apparently, there are none so blind as will not see. Your line about not being able to save all the kids sounds suspiciously self serving coming from a voucher proponent, because frankly, what you're proposing is the easy way out. You'll forgive the rest of of if we prefer to do the job correctly. And you still haven't addressed the fact that we have a 20 year experiment in Chile with vouchers, and for 20 years it has failed. So, what you propose, in short, is to not try to help all of the students so you can use a method that has failed in the only country to try it on a consistent and large scale basis. That is an odd definition of help.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. I see no evidence

That enough care about little children of color. Out of sight, out of mind and all that.

And I am NOT taking the long view any more. We tried that for 400 years. It's time to take a more radical view. If you can't fix it, let my people go.

As for Chile, please, neither that, nor the micro voucher plan in D.C. have any indication how American students and American schools would really fare.

[Pithlet]

116. Oh please is right.

Why, Chileans are somehow inferior to Americans? Vouchers have failed everywhere they've been tried. I'm sorry you hate the public school system so much that you're willing to sacrifice children to that hatred. But when you blow off 20 years of evidence that says your solution has already failed with a comment that implies Chileans are somehow inferior to Americans, then I'm left with no choice but to assume your position is based on unreasoning hatred instead of actual concern for the children you claim to hold so dear. If you are actually serious about this issue, you would concern yourself with making the system work, instead of railing wildly about in defiance of the actual evidence.

In another post to me you stated that private companies can come in and fill the need. So, let me understand, you think that somehow private schools are going to show up in poor neighborhoods despite the fact that voucher programs don't actually pay for all of the tuition, and poor students generally cost more to educate then well off students? The profit motive actually predicts the schools will not go into poor neighborhoods, because it is so much harder to make a profit in those situations. Your whole position is based on a rejection of empirical evidence, and an apparent complete lack of understanding of how businesses actually conduct business. It's not impressive. Just look at the charter schools in Philly and Texas; those experiments failed miserably.

[alcuno]

86. No. You misunderstand what a "right" is in this country.

First of all, there are many rights which we may never invoke. For example, I have the right to own and carry a gun; I'll probably never exercise that right. There is a difference between having a right to an education and being educated. Simple.

Second of all, your Darwinistic approach, hardly novel by the way, follows the same reasoning as those who believed that Blacks and women in this country were either incapable of learning or that educating them was a waste. The choice between saving some children and not others is pessimistic and bespeaks classism at its worst form.

Furthermore, the idea that there is no nationwide push for education for all children is belied every single day in the millions of classrooms across this country.

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. Rights and wrongs

Yes, everybody has a right to an education, but they don't get it. They get wronged instead.

As for your right to own a gun -- good theory. Try that in D.C. and get back to me.

Second, this is not Darwinistic, it is Realistic. The scenario has been designed by others. Either most of our children are lost or some are lost. Those are the current options. I refuse to wait till some theoretical time when MAYBE things will change.

Oh, yes, there is a nationwide push for education for SUBURBAN children. Those kids of color don't get the same kind of concern.

[Pithlet]

103. A majority of the schools

that fail to perform are in the poor areas. Those are the very schools we are proposing to fix. Not abandon in favor of a system that will favor private schools in richer areas, and allows them to soak more of our tax dollars that should go to those poor schools.

You better answer this question if you expect anyone to take you seriously: How can you claim to be concerned about poor students when you are support of a system that has NEVER produced a program that has paid the full tuition to a private school. Since you are so realistic, please explain to me where the extra money for this tuition is going to come from, since we know it isn't coming from the voucher system.

[Muddleoftheroad]

109. If you fund it, they will come

Building a school -- a new school -- is actually easier than fixing a broken one. All you need is empty office space and staff. Empty office space is available in every city. Staff, thanks to *, is also readily available.

So, if you really set up a system to fund vouchers, then the private sector will actually create schools that fill the need. Hell, I have a friend getting an education doctorate to do just that.

The big cost of most of those uber private schools is for the cachet, the big names, the big green space. Well, in the poor communities, all they want is to learn and be safe. Screw the rest.

[alcuno]

104. Of course it's Darwinistic. Darwin was the ultimate Realist.

What do you think survival of the fittest means? That's what you are proposing; a system that determines your future at a young age and cuts you out from opportunity.

I teach those kids of color every day and thank God that you are not in our school. Your reasoning breeds hopelessnes and divisiveness; ideas that no child needs fostered.

[Muddleoftheroad]

110. This is not survival of the fittest

This is simply survival. There is not enough funding or support to save all those kids. So, either we let them all suffer or we save some. That is the choice.

[pintobean]

107. Tomas

I agree with every post you've made here. I live in St. Louis, and send my kids to a catholic school. I'll go bankrupt before I send them to the public schools here. Having to make the decisions that effect your own children gives you a different perspective on reality.

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. Thanks and very true

But I am also concerned about the children I left behind in D.C. and Baltimore and other urban areas. They ARE left behind and everyone is looking for a perfect solution that will never come. In the meantime, they suffer, they fail to learn and they even die.

[Bunny]

33. Well, putting only the "most mainstream" students in the

mainstream classes would do away with about 30 years of progress in the special education field. We used to have special schools for special ed. Getting mainstreamed was a hard-earned victory, and I'd never wish to go back to segregated schools for people with developmental disabilities.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. We could talk long about this side topic

But I wildly disagree. We have benefitted special needs children and harmed other children who are held back or lose class time because of the mainstreaming.

[Bunny]

68. Yeah, we could talk a long time about this.

But remember, it wasn't that long ago when a lot of other groups of people (beside the mentally retarded) were kept in segregated schools, you know, for the "greater good". :think:

[alcuno]

49. Apparently you are unaware of federal law

which requires that special education students be mainstreamed into regular education classrooms; it's called least restrictive environment. Sending children with learning disabilities to special schools is simply intolerable; many of these children function daily in regular education classes with support. It would be inhumane to single them out and put them away from other children their own age.

Don't act like private schools are doing the public schools a favor in keeping down attendance. With each new child at a school comes both federal and state funds. As I said, we already provide many services for private school students so a few more teachers, books, desks, and chairs wouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. I am aware

It is a foolish program and will, some day, be scrapped.

I am sorry it is "inhumane." It is also inhumane to limit the teaching of many because of a few.

Yes, private schools and private school parents ARE doing the public schools a favor in keeping down attendance. You make it sound like the money for each school district would just magically appear. It would not. If more students attended, the existing funds would need to be stretched further.

[alcuno]

56. Nope. Not how it works. I'm well versed in school finance.

School districts receive both state and federal funds based upon the number of students in the district.

Don't act like you are doing the public schools a favor. It's your choice to send your children to a private school. But like my parents, don't expect others to pay for it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. It is NOT an unlimited pile of money

What do you think Congress and the states would do? Seriously, you don't think they would write a blank check? Maryland is already cutting back education funding. Where would they get the added cash?

[alcuno]

65. So let me get this straight.

On the one hand you want a "favor" in the form of vouchers, which are taxpayer dollars. On the other hand, you insist that you are giving a "favor" by using the private schools and thus saving taxpayers' dollars.

That same pile of money that you claim would be divided up by more public school students, you want to take and funnel towards vouchers. That doesn't make any sense.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. I am a realist

The money for vouchers will not happen without a voucher program. That's just a fact. Nor is it likely that such a cash infusion would fix the many problems in our urban schools. D.C. already ranks No. 3 among states for per pupil spending.

However, there is a move to get cash to fund vouchers. Those vouchers would help many children get out and I prefer that to the current situation.

[ulysses]

88. ah, the magic bullet

"I'm a realist", as in "I live in the real world and you don't."

Bullshit. Where does the voucher money come from?

[alcuno]

90. Well we've come full circle. You've restated your position so

I'll restate mine. When private schools are required by law to provide the same services that public schools are required to have, I'll consider supporting vouchers. Not one minute before.

[DrWeird]

93. But you want special schools for special education.

You didn't say you wanted special classes for special education students, you want to build them whole new schools. (what's the logic there, anyway? Good students might be uncomfortable seeing those hideous things?) How much would that cost in the real world?

And then in the Civil Rights forum you say you are against the Harvey Milk School because "seperate but equal was tried and it didn't work."

[Muddleoftheroad]

113. Harvey Milk

Was not for children who are educationally challenged. It was for gay children. Gay children, straight children, black children, white children, purple children should all be offered the same chances. However, children who are unable to handle the regular school environment and hold back others or themselves should not be mainstreamed.

[DrWeird]

92. Just what are you're qualifications?

You seem to know what's best for special educations students. You also seem to think that having kids with disabilities in the class room hurts the "regular" students.

I'd like to know what makes you think this. Because my wife, a fully certified special education teacher K-12, would strongly disagree with you.

She'd probably be pissed too.

[ulysses]

12. thank you.

As I recall, I've disagreed with you in the past over some issue or another, but I very much appreciate your post. As to the comeuppance - one may hope, but that relies on their ever having to be around the kind of folks who'll do the cleaning of the clocks, which is not a given.

[Mrs. Overall]

9. I teach at a private school as well--

although this school is not religious, we have several fundamentalist christian families who continuously nose around in the curriculum and find fault with what we teach. My employer caves in to this pressure and basically lets these few parents run the school.
I was recently called by an irate mother because I had done a unit on Greek mythology. Her daughter came home with a Greek god/goddess family tree that I had passed out. The mother was upset because according to the family tree Zeus had children by more than one woman, therefore, he wasn't "faithful," and how dare I present such trash in class. I had to defend myself with little help from my employer.
I also had to receive special permission to do an historical timeline, because I was going to put the founding of Buddhism and Islam on it, and this could be construed as inflammatory and anti-Christian.

[ulysses]

22. yeah

We have a morning assembly ("virtues") during which we're supposed to instruct the little darlings in all manner of Christian/American virtue. I was handed a copy of a William Bennett book on virtues for children recently, and have delighted in using every Aesop story within, replete with Greek gods. So far, no complaints. :)

[DrWeird]

17. I don't get the concept in general.

At least why private religious schools are supposed to be better. Do people really believe that discussing God and having prayer breaks is supposed to make the student smarter? That ignoring evolution is teaching science? That private schools do a better job by hiring uncertified teachers for less money they're going to get more for their dollar?

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. Private schools

Tend to teach more traditional methods and focus also on discipline. Parents like both those rather than no discipline and flavor of the month educational methods.

[ulysses]

37. scapegoats abound.

Parents like both those rather than no discipline and flavor of the month educational methods.

Newsflash - private schools that teach "tradtitional methods" and discipline have the same percentage of ill-mannered children that public schools do if they don't weed them out.

And if they weed them out, where will they go?

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Problem children should be taught in schools for problem children

If they are trouble enough, then they would go to juvenile facilities.

[ulysses]

45. How do you define "problem children"?

Asperger's syndrome kids? Austistic? ADHD? Kids who've lucked into shitty family lives? Should they go to juvenile facilities? How about sending them straight to jail?

I suppose I should thank you for your candor.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Problem children

Are children who disrupt the classroom and can't handle discipline. From there, they would go to special schools to get more appropriate education.

However, yes, some should indeed go to juvenile facilities. Not all children are sweetness and light. Some kill. Some sell drugs. Some rape. Some assault their classmates.

You can't teach if children are afraid to walk down the hall.

[ulysses]

57. grim view of humanity there.

No, not all children are sweetness and light. You're the only one proceeding from the assumption that any of them are.

Is any child who disrupts a classroom or who can't "handle discipline" (in your totally objective view) worthy of juvie? Should we allow for age? It's the rare child that springs from the womb having already dealt with authority issues - how many are you willing to allow into the hallowed halls of education?

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. You jumped a step

Children who can't handle discipline would go to special schools. No they wouldn't all be sent away at the first sign of trouble. Progressive discipline is fine. Juvie (it is what we used to call it) would be reserved for the worst troublemakers.

[ulysses]

66. ok - assuming that you're not going to pick and choose kids,

how are you going to handle that progressive discipline in private schools in a way that's different in manner than it's handled in public schools? How do you propose that private schools do it better?

And re: schools for the "resistant to discipline" population - who runs those? The state again, with all its terrible waste and lack of discipline? Private companies, with all their caring and support regardless of the bottom line?

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. Just like private schools do now

You can get detention. You can be suspended. And yes, you can be expelled.

If you are expelled from private school, you would have to go back into the public system if no other school would take you. The public system would have the ability to send you to special schools or juvenile facilities.

Re special schools, right now the state. If they care to outsource it, also fine.

[ulysses]

79. ...

You can get detention. You can be suspended. And yes, you can be expelled.

Sounds remarkably like public schools.

If you are expelled from private school, you would have to go back into the public system if no other school would take you.

Given that that public school will, under a voucher system, be even shittier than when that student left it, why not just shoot the poor sod? Isn't that what we're aiming at, intentionally or not?

Re special schools, right now the state.

Isn't the state the problem in the first place? If we're to leave "disciplinary problems" in their incapable hands, why not bypass several levels of red tape and just send the kids to jail? If you believe about public schools what you claim to believe, what's the difference?

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. Not exactly

The child would still have a chance to attend school or end up in special schools. Shoot them? Huh?

Not all troublesome kids need jail. In fact, probably most don't. They do need discipline however, that is a good start.

But they also need safety, something the public schools do NOT provide. In case you missed it, we had a child killed in D.C. last week IN SCHOOL.

[bleedingheart]

115. So you are saying that there has never been a violent act in a private

school???

I bet I can some.

[DrWeird]

82. Yes, rape, drugs, and murder.

That's what will happen if you start hanging around with the wrong crowd, smoking cigarettes, making out, girls wearing pants, and boys getting their ear pierced.

I knew a kid who went to private school and dyed his hair red. They told him to fix it, so he bleached his hair. It came out yellow instead of blonde, so they expelled him. That's what you get not fitting in.

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[ulysses]

52. no one has addressed my original question.

How many voucher proponents here have the cash to assure their kids preferential treatment in a private school?

[RainDog]

95. my children attended a public elementary school

with children from 39 nations attending. They came from families whose grandparents were as low-born chicken farmers to high-born as ambassadors of nations.

The children were from Asian, African, Middle Eastern, European, and American families.

The school was excellent, with all this diversity.

The reason, imho, that it was successful was because the parents of most of the children believe strongly in the value of a liberal education (and this is a college town, so lots of the kids had parents in grad school or otherwise connected to the U, and thus most of the parents were also educated and informed.)

A voucher system is a perfect republican end-run to insure segregation of people by class, race, and religion. Such separations are the antithesis of the philosophy of a liberal education (as in the traditional sense of that word, not the unsavory way the Limbaughs of the world have distorted it).

I remember an earlier thread you posted about your school and the science teacher who didn't believe in science.

That's a sure way to dumb down a population, huh?

[ulysses]

89. and still no one on the original question.

How many voucher proponents here have the cash to assure their kids preferential treatment in a private school?

[bleedingheart]

111. First I hope that you get a job in a public school very soon!

so I am sending good vibes your way...

Next I think that the biggest failure of public schools are the people who live in the districts.

First of all the big problem with failing schools are the people who live in those districts. There are many failing districts where the parents do not interact with the system or even their children. There are communities where there aren't enough people on the school board and that is a dirty shame.

Second, education is not a for profit type enterprise...tax money goes in and in the best scenario educated young people come out. The only Return on Investment is if those young adults become productive members of society.
Because it isn't a for profit enterprise and because people hate paying taxes they tend to short change the system and bitch about anything that might improve it anyways...a catch 22.
For example I live in a community that is fortunate to have finally gotten a school board that realizes that it pays to invest in the infrastructure and we are finally seeing new schools built and existing schools renovated. Our teachers even make decent money...isn't that novel...and we have a well respected public school system.

Third - Parents play a key role... the teachers can fill those young minds with knowledge but if the parents don't do anything to help those children it is all for nothing.
There are parents in even the best districts who send children to school hungry, their homework is not completed or even reviewed and many people do not even read to their youngsters....that is the dirty shame...and guess what...when junior doesn't do well...they blame the teacher...the easy scape goat.
My cousin went to a district that failed her twice because she wasn't keeping up...they did the right thing in failing her but her father went to the district and begged them to just pass her so that she could get a diploma ...even though she was not academically prepared...he just wanted to flush her out of the system...her own father...my uncle!

[bleedingheart]

114. I LOVE PUBLIC SCHOOLS

and I think it is a right wing myth that all public schools are failures!

I think that there are troubled schools in both urban and rural areas but I think that their problems are due in part to local politics, depressed communities, disinterested parents and tax structures.

Lets be honest if you have the following:

1. Stable tax structure with enough revenue.
2. Interested and active parents.
3. A good school board
4. Good economic conditions (works with number 1)

You will have a good district and a good number of schools in this nation fit those criteria.

Unfortunately if any of those are missing it is really hard to fix a district that is having problems but it can be done without dismantling the system. It takes money, common sense and parental/community interaction. What it doesn't need are naysayers who want to dismantle the system.