Why do people vote third party?

[truhavoc]

First, I'm writing this in response to the following thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=358197&mesg_id=358197&page=

I can understand that some people think that their vote is not going to matter, thus they will either stay home or vote third party. This is the most idiotic thing I have EVER heard. First one of the main things we have going against * is that he didn't win the popular vote. Don't you think that if the people of this nation overwhelmingly vote to remove *, but the electoral college screws us over again, it would at least be a means for electoral college reform? Also, this election is going to be tighter than most expect. To give a vote to anyone but the democratic candidate, if you care an ounce about the path of this country, would be complete folly.

[rockymountaindem]

1. Prepare to be flamed...

I agree with you, though. This is the time for unity.

[fleetus]

2. Because they find their views are better represented by that third party.

Those people are usually voting for the candidate who is MOST in agreement with their views (rather than voting for who is most in agreement with their views AND likely to win).

To solve all the problems, it would be better if we could RANK the candidates (or maybe top 3 or something) instead of just picking one.

[Terwilliger]

7. IRV

I'd like to see that too.

Oh...before 2040 if possible! :eyes:

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. IRV still has spoiler issues, though

so I prefer Borda or Condorcet voting myself.

[fleetus]

12. I wonder what it would take...

To change to that kind of system? What are the reasons to NOT do it?

[ShimokitaJer]

20. The reasons not to change are simple

The Republicans and the Democrats are the ones with the power to change our system of elections, and the current system favors one of those two parties holding on to power. They are not motivated by "fairness" or an earnest desire to represent all the people; they are motivated by a desire to hold on to power, and that desire is inherent in the system we use to choose our representatives. Even if some individuals within the system have an earnest desire to change things, the system as a whole is geared toward the interests of the two parties rather than the interests of the American people, and fighting for reform is an uphill battle.

Just look at the assumptions inherent in this thread: third party politics is an anomaly and, if voters had any sense, they would never "throw their votes away" on a third party. It has become so ingrained that the original poster never even questions the validity of the topic he poses.

In answer to the original post, I vote third party because I believe the two-party system is far more dangerous to Democratic ideals than either party is individually. I refuse to blindly accept that change will come from within if we toe the party line, and will not vote for a candidate of either party who serves only to maintain the status quo. There's more to progress than changing whether there's a D or an R behind the president's name.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. It's going to have to come from the grassroots level

Municipal then state.

I think as we see more cities switch to ranked voting, other places will start complaining to their powers that be "Why don't we have that too?".

[ShimokitaJer]

30. I hope you're right

But I have my doubts. I think there's a "glass ceiling" above which it is nearly impossible for a third party candidate to rise, since it is impossible to compete with the big party machinery. Although advances may be made at the local level, the party diversity encouraged by that type of system will make it difficult for a single third party to grow large enough to mount serious opposition to the big parties for Congressional seats. I fear success at the local level actually damages the ability to compete at the national level.

[adriennel]

3. your folly: moo!

"To give a vote to anyone but the democratic candidate, if you care an ounce about the path of this country, would be complete folly."

that's right, we'll bully people into voting Dem!! that'll work.

I'm wondering if you realize the parallels between "protest is unpatriotic" and "not voting Dem means you don't care about this country".

now, off to join the herd like a good American would do. MOO!

[truhavoc]

15. intelligent, very intelligent

The contrary is akin to voting republican, its a game of numbers and if you guy doesn't have them he looses. I don't agree on all points with the candidates but I sure the hell agree with them more than Bush. What is more important, voting your conscious, or allowing Bush to remain in the white house??? Also I said "path of the country" which in no way relates to patriotism. It relates purely to the "path" the nation follows internationally and domestically. This is akin to saying a vote for anyone other than the democratic frontrunner is folly due to the fact that if the democrat looses Bush remains. If you don't care about that, I don't know why you are posting on the democratic underground.

[adriennel]

23. thanks for questioning my intelligence

when you didn't even understand my post (or know how the electoral college works). All I am trying to say is that Dems are not going to garner votes by continuing to dismiss the Independent or (gasp!) third party voter. If you're not with us, you're against us. This is what I felt after reading your post.

voting for the candidate most likely to win is more fitting for a high school prom queen than a president...personally, I would rather vote for the individual I feel is best prepared for the job. I did this in the last election and though my candidate received a majority of the popular vote, he did not win!

yes, it's a number game. I don't like to play games.

[truhavoc]

35. not questioning your intelligence, only your maturity

I did understand your post, and I do understand how the electoral college works..prove to me your evidence otherwise. I was only responding to your unfounded calls of basically naming me part of "the herd", I'm glad you feel like you are so ahead of the curve, so en vogue, because you vote for third party candidates. I respect your opinion to vote third party in most years, but all I am saying is I want someone at least slightly left from the middle instead of someone far right. I am about as liberal as one can be, but I understand that as of TODAY third party candidates neither have the money, the platform, nor the experience to contend in the general election. Imagine the senario where a liberal third party seriously contends with the democrats for votes, and republicans remain somewhat unified. This would then mean not only would the presidency still be in GOP hands, but all of congress eventually as well. The liberal agenda would be non-existant, and we would most likely be hit with bans on abortion rights, prayer in school, and all these other agendas that liberals dispise. Until there is a serious conservative third party that would contend as well I would not even consider the third party candidate, not as a matter of being a sheep, but a carefully considered stategic vote for a REAL, ACTUAL, progressive agenda.

[Walt Starr]

26. You're right, it's a numbers game

If your state ain;t in play, the numbers say you can safely go third party.

Two cases in point. Democrats in Texas can safely go third party because there is no way in hell a Democrat is taking Texas. Democrats in Illinois can safely go third party because there ain't no way Bush is taking Illinois.

Numbers mean a lot and a lot of states won't even be in play due to the numbers.

[truhavoc]

33. Is it because of the numbers or because of people like you?

Get involved, bring new people to the party, do something other than give up. This same sort of apathy is why so few people vote. You are voting third party for a change are you not? Then make a change where it actually counts and get out the vote!

[Walt Starr]

37. I've tried that for almost a quarter century

It ain't worked yet, just more of the same old same old.

That's why I'm giving my "five percenter" idea a shot. If the nominee needs my vote, he'll get it. Otherwise, I'm going independent.

After the primary on March 16th, I'll be officially dropping my registration as a Democrat and will register as an independent. I've been a Democrat since 1981 when I turned 18.

[Kitsune]

4. Because some people don't feel they should be forced to...

...vote for the lesser of two evils.

Case in point, if Kerry gets the nomination, one of two things will happen:

1) I will order a HazMat suit and vote for Kerry.
2) I will vote for another party, probably Green.

Honestly, right now I don't know which I'll do. I live in Washington State, though, so I'm fairly certain this won't be a close one here. Of course, if it looks like it IS close, I'll go the HazMat suit route.

I don't like the two-party system, especially now that both parties are esssentially the same with a few differences thrown in to make it look as though both parties aren't controlled by the same oligarchy.

Now I'M going to get flamed, and I haven't even gotten that flame-retardant asbestos suit in the mail yet.... bveh, I need to go to class anyway.

[Terwilliger]

5. Sorry, but the popular vote differential will NOT cause people to...

end the electoral college

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I'll vote dem THIS time

Feel free to visit my site to find out why I don't vote Dem for prez every time, and what I am looking for in my government as far as election reforms.

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/about.htm

[bowens43]

8. Everyone should vote their conscience

to do otherwise is to do a great disservice to the electoral process. Those who vote for someone simply because they have a (D) or an (R)next to their name on the ballot are part of the problem , not the solution. They are enablers, they allow mediocrity. Many of us are sick and tired of voting against candidates rather then for candidates. Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win the war.

That being said, I will support Kerry if he gets the nomination.

[enki23]

9. because they can

you can think they're stupid, and they can think you're stupid. and that's just how it is.

the real reason is this: they have different goals than you do, different issues they consider important, and different information than you have. their choices may be different than yours, because they aren't making the same choice you're making. you're choosing between republican and democrat. they might be choosing between capitalism and socialism. just an example, among many possible.

in other words: they aren't asking the same questions you are asking, and so you shouldn't be surprised if they don't come up with the same answer.

[Brian Sweat]

10. Because we are lucky enough to live an a country

where they have that option.

[Walt Starr]

13. If my vote will make no difference in the outcome in my state

why should I throw it away when it could help legitimize a third party?

[FloridaPat]

14. I vote constantly against republicans. This also means I

can't vote for who I think is the better candidtate - a Democrat or third party. I have been registerd independent since I started voting. I didnt't want to be associated with either party. The republicans are criminals and traitors to the highest order. The Democrats are enablers. This election should be a no-brainer. BushCo should be fending off impeachment trials. The public should be so fed up with the lies and deaths caused by these creeps - along with the destruction of the economy, the destruction of jobs, the destruction of three big buildings in New York, etc - that no one would admit to being a republican for a hundred years. But they do next to nothing and vote for most of his insane ideas.

[truhavoc]

16. Point Taken

I agree with you, I am not saying you should always vote democrat, you should just always vote for the party that has the best shot at winning!

[mrgorth]

19. This year

ABB is necessary. If McCain was on the other side I'd be voting Green. The dems need to move to the left.

[Walt Starr]

24. I'm only ABB if it actually will make a difference

Illinois looks to be a solid Dem lock this year. I have the luxury of going Green without changing that.

[ShimokitaJer]

29. So if the Repubs have the best shot at winning we vote for them?

You are operating under the common misconception that third parties are merely reflections of the Democratic and Republican parties. In other words, you seem to believe that the Democratic party honestly serves the needs of the Greens to the point that the Green party does not need to exist. Therefore, when the Greens don't have a shot at winning, you believe they should switch their allegiance.

Third parties exist precisely because their voters feel their needs are not represented by the two main parties. If you, affiliated with one party, feel differently, it is your prerogative to try and convince them otherwise, but you will not succeed by simply saying one must vote for the winner.

[dfgrbac]

17. Why?

Because they get upset with the results of voting for the two major parties. The two-party system is a prescription for inaction - one group blocks the other from doing anything.

One of the most excellent examples of the above is the Eddie Murphy movie The Distinguished Gentleman. Every American should see this movie. Although it is a comedy, it is more fact than fiction as it represents the culture of Washington, DC.

Ladies and Gentlemen, our political system is badly corrupted. Small incremental changes will do nothing, because we get a small change toward good, and then a small change toward bad. If we get a series of good changes (because we elected a few good people), the other side comes along and gives us a series of bad. It is all about money and powerful corporate interests that are protecting their profits for their elite - never mind the employees and the rest of us.

There is a way out of this mess. Electing someone of the caliber of Dennis Kucinich would help, but not be a cure. There is a cure on the horizon though.

Democracy is the cure! Although we don't have democracy currently, in spite of what our government and schools tell us, we can implement democracy by voting for it. The power of a country is in its people, not in its government. Our Constitution clearly leaves the sovereignty of this country in our hands - not in some president, senator, or judge.

Vote FOR the National Initiative for Democracy!

[tabasco]

18. Because they are dimwits.

I hope Ralph Nader enjoys watching the oil drilling in the Alaska wilderness. Green, my ass. They would have the country go down the toilet rahter than be part of a progressive coalition. If they can't have their nudist utopia candidate, they're taking their ball and going home. About the same level of maturity.

[Walt Starr]

22. So a person who votes Green in Texas this year is a dimwit?

Please, check your response. You painted everybody who votes third party as dimwits without regard to the fact that I don't care who the Democrat is, he has zero chance of winning Texas.

[ulysses]

27. a unique point of view! how refreshing!

...

[LeahMira]

21. People who vote third party...

... are often people who have voted for a candidate who promised changes would be made, but once the candidate got into office it was more of the same thing on issues that the voter really cared about.

That last part is what I think is really important. While it's true that some candidates have made changes once they got into office, those weren't always the changes that meant most to the individual voter.

One example. I am especially interested in issues that touch the lives of American Indians. I was really hopeful when President Clinton visited the reservations (especially the Pine Ridge, where I have some special friends). While there, President Clinton promised to make the reservation some sort of economic opportunity zone which would send more funds to improve the quality of life there. Well, my friend Lucy is still unemployed and she tells me that things haven't changed for the people in her village or anywhere else that she can see. I've been there, and in her village there really are no jobs except in the school and at the little convenience store, and those jobs are filled already. Since Lucy doesn't own a car, there's no way for her to get to any job that might exist outside of her village. She did get a job as a blackjack dealer at the Prairie Winds Casino several years back, and she thought she was rich making $6. an hour, but she depended on someone else for a ride and when that person's car broke down they both lost their jobs.

Far as I'm concerned, President Clinton failed to honor his promises. Sure, he honored some other promises, but he didn't honor one that was really important to me. So, last election I voted Green because with Winona La Duke as Vice President I knew that something would improve for the reservations. Plus, the Greens specifically addressed American Indian issues in their platform and the Democrats really did not.

When the candidates don't honor their promises, and those promises are really important to individual voters, those voters figure that politicians are all crooks and either way, nothing is ever going to change. I think anyone will get discouraged and lose hope after they have trusted time and time again and been let down time and time again.

I guess that because voting was always a duty in my family I am one that will not give up on voting. For as long as I have a voice, I have the obligation to use my vote as a way of speaking out about the things that I care about. But still, I try very carefully not to make promises that I'm not sure I'm going to be able to keep. I'd hope that the people I vote for are at least as good as I am about that.

[ulysses]

25. I'll tell you why I did twice.

I saw my party, throughout the nineties, giving in, and giving in as a matter of policy, on more and more issues that I consider important and asking less and less in return. I thought for a long time about both votes before casting them, and I don't regret either one.

I've been a Democrat my entire life, but the party lost my automatic support in 1996 with welfare "reform". With Joe Lieberman happily out of the running, I'm unlikely to vote third party for a third time in November, but the party has some work to do before I consider third party support entirely out of the question. And if things keep going as they've been, it may be that, at 35, I've overstayed my welcome anyway.

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[MadHound]

32. Why? Because many of us have woken up to the fact

That we are living under a two party/same corporate master system of government. When both parties are hopelessly corrupted as the Dems and 'Pugs currently are, it is no longer a matter of voting for the "lesser of two evils". Both parties are evil and quite frankly this country needs a good house cleaning. Voting for a party like the Greens which takes NO corporate money is a matter of starting a movement to give government of the people, by the people and for the people back to the people.

By voting either Dem or 'Pug all you are doing is enabling the continued corporate looting of our country. When you have over forty corporations giving $100,000 or more to each presidential candidate, how can you call it anything but hedging their bets? Face it corporations are amoral creations whose only guiding principle is more money. If they have to ride the 'Pugs to do it fine, same with the Dems.

So many believe the only way to save this fine country of ours is to back a party that is clean of corporate money. You may think of it as the height of folly, but for us it is a moral imperative.

[Deja Q]

34. Why will people vote a write-in for Dean come November 2, 2004?

x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x(

The Greens aren't worth the excuses and token role of judas goat anymore. Election 2002 proved how badly 3rd parties were hurt.

[tomorrowsashes]

36. because I am not a democrat

I am not a democrat. I disagree with most of what comes out of their mouths. I despise most of them. I will not vote for my enemy. My views are farther away from the democratic party than the democrat's views are from the republicans. If I vote dem, I will be encouraging them to move farther right, as they have been. The two party system is bullsh*t.

Typically, people will say that they will vote democrat because they are better than the republicans on two major issues: the economy and the war. Clinton did not do too good for the economy. While it is true that stock prices did go up, most people don't own stocks. The median income did not go up at all under his presidency. This is not healthy. Clinton is a thief.

On the issue of the war, most democrats supported it, and those who did not supported sanctions, which killed tens of thousands of innocent civillians a year. I guess that means I have a choice between two murderers, who each use different means. Sounds great to me.

[cryofan]

38. Don't worry, we 3rd party types are hep to the seriousness of 2004

Here are some good links about the 3rd party situation and progressivism and social democracies:
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htm
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/SocialDemocracy.htm

What we have to do is find out what races are close and vote Dem for those; for all other races, vote 3rd party (Green or Socialist).

Here is an excerpt from the kewl1788 URL above:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How to Vote


What is to be done? We need a revolution, but violent revolution probably won’t work in an advanced nation in the new century. Communism is a proven failure throughout the world. Laissez faire capitalism is an unsustainable form of slavery. Only Social Democracy is a viable system, but even social democrat nations such as Sweden and Norway are under tremendous downward pressure on wages from globalization. The solution must be a new form of Social Democracy that can compete in the global marketplace even as it protects domestic quality of life and social programs—and it is a formidable challenge for social democratic nations to balance this new mixed economy. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that Social Democracy is the only viable solution, and therefore inevitable, even in America. Britain, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia, Europe, Brazil, Venezuela, South America and other regions are already progressing toward Social Democracy, even as America is stuck in an anti-progressive Dark Age. America simply needs to catch up with the rest of the world, to end this American Dark Age, to enter a new era of progressive enlightenment.



How to vote: Always vote. In any American election, always vote for the democratic candidate regardless of personality, because that is the only way to defeat republicans. In a three-way race between a republican, a democrat and an independent, vote democrat. In a race between a democrat and a progressive independent, vote for the independent. But voting is not enough. Get involved in the community; spread the good news of progressive policy. Advocate Social Democracy, so that one day, America will grow to be as progressive as the rest of the civilized world.