Any Boy Scouts on this forum?

[coloradodem2005]

I am asking the question because I am an Eagle Scout and proud of it. I have a loyalty to the BSA and the things that I did as a scout were some of the best times of my life.

That aside, I do feel mortified and ashamed of things that have gone on with the organization over the last few years. The two things that come to mind are these:

1. The discrimination against gays. This does bother me. It is not right.

2. The fact that they would have anything to do with Oliver North. A man who has been involved in Iran Contra.

Your thoughts.

[rac6]

1. agree

I am also an Eagle Scout, proud of my time in the scouts and with fond memories of those years. Like you, I am very disturbed by some of these positions, especially the prohibition of gay scouts and the embrace of Oliver North and Ann Coulter. I have a 5 year old son who I will certainly not push to join the BSA and would likely discourage it if he wanted to. I am sad about this, but I think it is the right decision. There are plenty of things to keep the kids busy these days that don't involve the support of criminals or encourage bigotry.

[coloradodem2005]

2. They are embracing Ann Coulter?!!!

Oliver North is bad enough. How can they embrace that conteptable bitch? I am in total shock. Do you have any documentation of that?

[truthspeaker]

27. how do they reconcile their embrace of Coulter w/ intolerance towards gays

and transsexuals? Is it OK as long as they stay in the closet?

[Az]

34. Um, They don't

They are asa intolerant as she is. They hate Gays, Atheists, and Agnostics. The leadership has sided with the religious right and are very much in line with people like Coulter.

[mn9driver]

3. Coulter?! Well, so much for letting my boys become scouts.

Here is a link. Warning: Jingoistic right-wing nonsense. Ugh.

[wellstone_democrat]

4. Mr. W_D is an Eagle Scout

although after originally thinking of pursuing a career in professional scouting, the vicious dismissal of a former scout master by the state (?) council for being gay put him off the BSA entirely. This man had NO accusations or even the vaguest hints that his interest was in anything but his long-time partner (both in their 50s by then) and certainly not in the boys. It didn't matter because by then the BSA troops were all under the authority of churches in the area and the state authorities cruelly dumped a man with 20+ years of scouting, an eagle scout himself and one who had dozens of former scouts rally on his behalf.

Basically, my husband refuses to give them a dime and the recent pushes to get rulings by the courts to enforce their bigotry has only pushed him further away. A shame, Mr. W_D worked at national camps as a counselor during the summer and all the various activities through college. Now, the link with the likes of North "put the final nail in that coffin"

I just mentioned Coulter as a possible new "friend" of scouting. He's definitely a more unhappy camper with that news...maybe Nightline's AWOL coverage will cheer him up!

[Stoker]

5. I'm an Eagle Scout, too...

Remember, scout troops are like churches - each one is different and to a large extent the values will reflect the values of the community where the local group is situated.

I'm proud of being an Eagle Scout and I'm proud of Scouting.

Stoker

[Product of Evolution]

6. I'm proud to say...

That my Scouting was done as a member of Scouts Canada.

[Kickin_Donkey]

7. I'm an Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow, former SPL ...

all that stuff. Had some good times, especially while camping.

I'm not ashamed of it, nor am I proud of it. It's just something I did when I was a kid, like playing ball.

A couple of years ago, after the Supreme Court decision, I wrote National Headquarters telling them that I would not support the Scouts monetarily, would not become involved with the Scouts, and my kids (if I had any) would not be participating in Scouting due to BSA's discriminatory policies against gays. (To National HQ's credit, they wrote back, saying that they appreciated my input on the matter.)

I think the BSA has gotten caught up in the Culture Wars, like a lot of institutions in current American society. They're part of the polarization that has gone to the right. In my view, it's teetering on becoming an archaic institution.

I respect anyone's desire to continue their allegiance to Scouting. I feel that there are still valuable aspects to it. But it's just not my thing anymore.

[Riptide]

8. My husband is an Eagle Scout....

He is really upset by the recent hard right turn they have made. We have decided not to put our son in scouting. My mother-in-law is so upset with us - after all, all of my husband's siblings have put their sons in scouting.

They blame it on me, his "bleeding heart liberal wife", as they call me. They also say it is my fault that I have "made him a democrat." You should just see Thanksgiving dinner.

[sweetheart]

9. Organizations change

Are you still an eagle scout after age 18? I think you're not a scout after that. I was an eagle scout, scout lifeguard and once assistant scout master in the great western council.

I would rather my child attended martial arts lessons than scouts these days. The bully-american culture is soo pervasive, that i would rather my child know how to defend against all bullys that physical fear is not a factor in latter life. Knots, canoes and stuff are nice, but less important for real american life anymore.

The scouts has been hyjakked to be like the hitler youth. Oh well.

[patriotvoice]

11. Yes, you are still an Eagle Scout.

However, the insignia, if you ever wear the uniform again, changes after you reach age 18.

[patriotvoice]

10. Eagle Scout and Vigil OA

And yes, the Boy Scouts stance on "conservative" issues has been, in my opinion, a poor choice for them. They should be building stronger youth by embracing the diversity expressed in our culture, rather than segregating those that fall outside their self-described mores.

[KayLaw]

12. We dropped out

We had both our boys in scouting and my husband and I were both den leaders. When we started, we were unaware of the whole gay discrimination controversy and the other parents and leaders seemed unaware, as well.

During those three years, we only met a few people who would qualify as " freepers." Most were just nice kids and parents trying to be good parents.

[noonwitch]

13. My cousins were in it, but the troop was teaching them to fire .22s.

So my aunt and uncle took them out of scouting.

I was a Girl Scout. We never had guns around, there were never issues regarding homosexuality (most of the leaders were moms of girls in the troop) and I did have one lesbian troop leader when I was in cadet scouts. She never did anything inappropriate, I didn't even know she was gay at the time, I found out much later.

[GOPisEvil]

14. The National Office of the BSA cast its lot poorly.

There's a reason membership and adult volunteerism is down, and it's their exclusionary practices. I am an Eagle Scout and I loved my time in the BSA. I taught at summer camps and held some local leadership positions. It was great. However, the BSA has started to become a political organization, rather than the leadership and conservation organization it once was.

Until the BSA National Office changes its views on exclusion, I won't support them. That being said, local BSA Councils might have slightly differing views on things when they are able, and certainly an individual Troop and its leaders might be quite different from National as well.

[Quahog]

15. My son just finished Cub Scouts

I was not a scout when I was a boy, my parents never suggested that I look into it, and although some of my friends in elementary school wore their uniforms on occasion, I was never really recruited. My wife thought it would be a way to help my son get acquainted when we moved to RI from San Diego in '98.

I've had ambivalent feelings about it from day one. I ended up being the den leader, and I worked hard to do right by the boys (who were a great if unruly bunch of fun guys). But the organization's policies on the national level rankled me constantly. My son liked it all well enough that I couldn't see pulling him out (especially since he wasn't old enough to have the whole issue of homosexuality and discrimination explained to him). But now he's done, and of the ten boys in our patrol, he is the only one who is not crossing over into Boy Scouts. He's just not finding it that interesting anymore... prefers basketball, and soccer, and playing his drums. He'd rather just go camping with me that with the whole gang. It's kind of a load off of my mind, because I was having a hard time imagining myself staying involved given the organization's increasingly right-wing tilt.

Also, despite the fact that I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS, the whole pseudo-military aspect of the thing was starting to bug the hell out of me.

[OhioStateProgressive]

16. till I was like 13

made it thru boy scouts, got the 'arrow of light' badge...but drifted away from it

It bothers me that I was associated with them because of the bad things they stand for...at the same time I am proud of the good ideals it installed in me in other aspects

[Beer Snob-50]

17. I am a scoutmaster

who has never asked anyone about sexual orientation, views on patriotism, is mortified by Ollie North, and basically just try and give the kids experience in doing things they have never done before.

[Lars39]

21. Have you been eying your replacement,

if your kid is almost out of scouts? We've been very fortunate in our scoutmasters. None were fundies or freepers or a combination thereof. My husband's committe chair, though, and he's been agonizing over who would be best for him to recommend. The troop seriously bypasses the district office on a lot of things, including fundraising. We haven't ever encountered a really freeperish troop, but the day is probably coming. Hard to combat the rot when it starts at the top.

[Beer Snob-50]

41. Our troop is the local renegade troop!!

We avoid the district office at all costs, laugh at the ones who march in military fashion from site to site at campouts, and basically do what we want. The kids have a great time, we have fun doing it, and maybe (just maybe) we will end up teaching them something. I have another 4 or 5 years to go with this so I am not thinking of a replacement yet.

[CRK7376]

24. You and me both!

It's about kids, values(although this is where we runinto trouble with the gay issue), camping, and so much more. I had a great experience as a kid and I give back today as much as possible.

[Red State Rebel]

46. I am Scout leader for a Venturing Crew

I have 2 gay adult leaders and 3 gay scouts. Don't ask, don't tell - as in the District hasn't asked and I'm not telling.

[Loonman]

18. 2

1. That was before my time, so it wasn't an issue, at that time

2. I've written the national office to show my disgust with associating with Ann Coulter and Ollie North.

[Az]

19. Its not just gays

They also discriminate against atheists. They have kicked out a number of atheist leaders and members. Unfortunately it is acceptable in the US to kick atheists so we do not get press coverage.

I would say turn in your eagle badge. As a former scout myself I cannot bring myself to associate with an organization that has decided to politicize itself and side with the fundimentalist right. You lend your voice to their crusade by remaining with them.

[HootieMcBoob]

20. I was a cub scout, webelow and boy scout

but I dropped out not long after tenderfoot. It seems I discovered rock and roll and scouting seemed uncool. I'm sorry I dropped out. I learned a lot and had a really fun time.

I didn't know that the scouts had embraced North and Coulter. I hope that's not true.

I had always thought that if I ever had a son I would encourage him to go into scouting because I think it builds character and confidence and skills and it's just fun. Now, with this new information I would not do this unless I was convinced that these people have no influence with the organization.

[CRK7376]

22. I've been an

Eagle Scout for 31 years, a Vigil Honor memeber for 28 years. Scouting was awesome for me as a kid. I spent 6 years working on Camp Staff. My best friends are also Eagles that I grew up with, some in my troop, but most were guys that I worked on Camp Staff and OA with. We're still great friends 25-30 years after working on staff. I'm active now as an Assistant Scoutmaster and work with our local OA Chapter. My oldest son is shy 2 merit badges and his Eagle project andhe's 14. My other son will join scout later this year and chomping at the bit...

I too am very discouraged by some of the posting here that slam the Scouts. A few bad apples tarnish the reputation of a great organization. The homosexuality issue is the crux of the problem with the BSA today. I have never been a gay basher nor will I ever be. I was raised and am raising my children to believe in individual rights and liberties and that includes being free to choose one's sexual orientation. I may not agree with a homosexual lifestyle, but that does not mean those that do or participate in that lifestyle are bad people. They are not. I would not yank my kids out of a troop if I were to discover one of the adult leaders was gay. I may be concerned, I may be more attentive, but I would not be hostile. Besides there are probably 1000s of Scouts and Scout Leaders that have made a tremendous impact on Scouting and have received tremendous benefits from Scouting that are gay. So what?

This is a hard post to respond to. I do not agree with a homosexual lifestyle, but gays have a right to their lifestyle. I may not have many posts at DU but I've been active and reading for nearly two years and have always avoided posting when the issue revolved around the Boy Scouts. This time I responded. And I don't agree with everything BSA does, but I love Scouting, and what it did for me as a youngster, how it set me up to be successful in life. This is a tough issue.

[veganwitch]

23. i have two eagle scout cousins

and dated a guy who was almost eagle. we had some very heated discussions about it.

im proud of what my cousins have done, its very very very hard work (and they got letters from president clinton, who they hate, hahaha).


but i will not donate, buy from, or have any future son join the boy scouts.

[sweetheart]

25. The boy scouts as brainwashing

To enter the boy scouts, you must repeat these mantras:

A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, thrifty, brave, cheerful, clean and reverant.

<I'm missing one... Whatever.

This must be memorized to pass the test in the troop i attended. Each of these had to be explored in study, and it serves as a sort of secular religion. In the paramilitary structure, all wearing uniforms with rank insignia, there is certainly the basis for boys to "play army."

My boy scout troop had the expectation that all its "warriors" would go on to die in military noble things, business leadership and stuff like that. It was sorta like an anti-mullah thing, and designed to keep the kids off drugs during their sensitive years. Yet, all of this understood that in the first 6 years of life, the love and nurturing around a child is the ultimate determanent of drugs addicton and other harmful destructions... not mind control in teenage years.

I got to meet on campouts all the other kids fathers. This was really cool. Each parent, was a whole new universe, and i had never been able to meet so many interesting people. As a teenager, i thought that that part was the best part. There were a coupla parents of other kids, whom as a teenager, i wished were my parents. Surrogate parenthood.

During the troop's visit to taiwan. I had to sing the national anthem on behalf of our visiting uniformed children to coupla thousand taiwanese. I was too young to see it as a terribly political imperial acton to send uniformed troops abroad, however symbolic and unintended their youth. This part, i did not enjoy at all, and on the day i got away from the "troop control" in Taipei, i fell in love with a buddhist monastary and shaved me head. I never knew about buddhism, and that was "first contact". On reflection, i see that one thing as the blessing of the boy scouts in my life.

The implicit methodism of the scouts was its dark side, IMO. As <byron/baden?> powell, the body scout great god-man wrote the holy book, the "manual" for scouts... and he was religious. The boy scounts i found to be a subsconscious sales pitch of prodestantism. Perhaps as we used facilities in churches were many kids were in attendence, as the scout troop used the family church hall as well. But also the guide, had the mental component... and as it was the first book in my life i had to read and study, it was sort of a religious imprint.. pushing to achieve things by doing things, and doing community things and doing things and doing lots of things and doing things. Prodestantism presumes there is someting holy in "doing". It does not explore multi-religious or multi-ethnic views during that time, and were i to re-code that book, i would add a generous openness to all cultural system and multi-ethnicity... but then it is not boy scouts... the puritanism implicit in it is its tragic flaw. I can't say it did not work for me... but i like to whine. :-)

[Lars39]

26. Sounds like you were in a very rigid, ambitious hard-core troop.

Rich or very good at fundraising,too, to be able to get the troop overseas. Our guys made the once in a lifetime trip to Philmont a few years back and have been slackers ever since. ;)

[sweetheart]

33. We had a christmas tree lot

The troop sold christmas trees on a vacant lot and the markup on a few truckloads of trees paid for econmics... as well as parents.
Also, a troop that has been attending international jamborees will likely continue to attend them, and there is an alumnis thing with that sort of troop i think. Parents from around would bring their kids to the troop from farther afield in west LA and mar vista.

We had to practice for the game of OTT, and several monty pythonesque games in the countryside... and swimming every week.
tuesday troop meeting, patrol meeting, staff meeting. The troop ran like a business... with free child labour. A self propelling business of giving kids jamboree-like experiences in a very para-military organization. Survival merit badge and some of them are
civilian equivalents of military training. The boating swimming, scuba diving merit badges forced military knolwedge for teenagers.
In a war society, it is early ROTC, depending on the troop. I wonder
if they can't tighten a troop up, simply by installing new leaders
and giving the kids all guns, as geez, if we did not get gun shooting merit badgets as well. It was a full-spectrum training
to prepare for the military service. Uniform inspections, setting up
camp in 1 minute, sweep patrols in open land, compass work.

All in all, it was an education thing, a voluntary one, (as much as
teenagers volunteer for anything) Mainly on the parents compulsion
to see their kid get those experiences, as certianly with an open family, the decision to study certain merit badges over others could
tune the courseware.

I probably would have appreciated your troop better. :-)

[Lars39]

36. Good grief!

That sounds like the kind of troop that wears the parents to a frazzle! We're low-key, laid-back. OK. Lazy. :) I know what you mean about the paramilitary aspects. I think if the troop was more gung-ho we'd be seeing a lot of it. It also helps that the focus is on backpacking/hiking.

[CRK7376]

28. Although I love Scouting

and will be a life long scout, I had no idea Ollie North and Coulter were being pontificated and placed upon a pedastal by BSA. That makes me sick! My previous posting dealt mostly with the gay issue in Scouting, but yes religion is also a weapon the fundies are using, as is BSA, in their stance. Raised a Methodist, but having drifted away from organized religion many years ago, I feel a belief is important, but not critical. There are other things that are more important than religion and belief in God that are taught to Scouts. As with the homosexuality issue, I also believe that the belief in God or choice not to believe is an individual, private concern and issue. Kids and leaders should not be kept out of the BSA based on lack of religion or chice in sexuality. Also years ago I dropped the "Under God" phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance over this very issue....

[really-looney]

29. Eagle Scout, Bronze and Gold Palm

I had a great time in scouting. Made lots of friends, went to summer camp, completed community service, overall it was a great experience. I now have a son and hope he is able to do the same when he is old enough.

The Boy Scouts like the rest of society has taken a turn to the right. I was extremely disappointed when Oliver North and Ann the man were chosen to speak. Like everything, the Boy Scouts needed money and they went for big names to attract the money over principle. That is a true shame, the selling out of a great American institution.

[RedSox02]

30. I was a Boy Scout

I also have a problem with their stance on gays, which I believe is a result of the Mormon churches major influence on teh leadership. The Mormon Church donates alot of money and land to the Boy Scouts. THey are at their will for policy decisions.

The Oliver North issue is an example of one district clearly run by partisans.

I am disgusted that the GOP is going to try and claim another American tradition as their own.

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[truthspeaker]

32. FYI: there is scouting outside the BSA

Campfire Boys & Girls have a non-discrimination policy. I think scouting can be a good way to learn community service, responsibility, and outdoor skills, and it doesn't have to be done through BSA.

I was never one myself. My parents tried to get me to join Cub Scouts but I was a shy kid and not a joiner, plus when I read the pamphlet I already knew I was an atheist and understood I would not be welcome.

[mn9driver]

38. Thanks for that. I was a scout (only made it to Star) and enjoyed

it very much, but it sounds as if the organization has changed, or at the very least failed to evolve from the time 35 years ago when I did it.

[durutti]

35. ::cringes::

I was a Cub Scout. My dad was a Scout Master. I hated it.

I'm sorry, but I think the BSA is the epitome of reaction. I wouldn't give them a penny.

[Az]

37. The scouts were indirectly responsible for

my philosophical awakening. It came about during a Jamboree. It was a great time. Saturday night we were taken to a local observatory. We were able to see the moon up close, planets, nebula, and stars. It was a true awakening to me of the wonders of the universe. A passion that is still with me to this day. The next day however started with a mass. I could not reconcile these two concepts. I understand others may find continuity and I do not discard their passion. But for me the two worlds did not meet. That was the end of my scouting days.

[ComerPerro]

39. I was a lazy boy scout

I never really got much done...

Actually, I was a boy scout officially until 4th grade. Then we moved three times in four years, so it made it too much of a pain in the ass to keep joining.

Come to think of it, I doubt I would have had the motivation to become much of a scout anyway...

[NoKingGeorge]

40. Someone who was called a disgrace to the uniform by

his superiors in the military at the time. He ignored an oath to support the Constitution when he agreed to break the law for some ideology. A national disgrace. What could he possibly mean to an organization that has an oath as a cornerstone. I just hope the scouts learn how to honor an Oath, but having this guy involved sure complicates that.

[Cannikin]

42. They'll let pedophiles in as long as they're married upstanding citizens..

Let me thank you personally, Boy Scouts for a FUCKED UP childhood for many boys in my home town!!

http://www.heathstocks.com/jackwalls.html
Scoutleader, Charles A. "Jack" Walls III, was a trusted and revered member of
their community, a Chamber of Commerce "Man of the Year". He was also a child rapist. In 1969, as a young man attending law school, the first charges of "sexual impropriety" were brought against him. His father, a prominent attorney at the time, was able to procure for him a stint in the Vietnam War to avoid prosecution. So, Jack did his time in Vietnam, His father went on to become a powerful judge and Jack returned home, got married, had three children, and joined the Boy Scouts of America.

"After what happened in Lonoke, it's understandable. In June, Jack Walls III, a prominent citizen and Scout leader, was sentenced to life plus 40 years in the penitentiary for raping boys in his Scout troop.

"The turning point of the case occured when Wade Knox, Walls' nephew, forced Walls at gunpoint to admit to the rape of Wade and his older brother Brook. "
http://www.courttv.com/onair/shows/thesystem/q_z_episodes/scoutmasters_secret.html



While this was the work of a pedophile rather than a homosexual, any parent of a Scout or even a friend of the program living in this area must be very wary at this point and not at all willing to experiment with Scout leaders.":

Police estimate that over 30 years, Walls, 52, abused as many as 100 young boys, whom he frightend or mesmerized into silence.
http://www.arktimes.com/mccord/091099mccord.html


Now tell me, have you had any HOMOSEXUAL scout leaders do the same thing??? What kind of background checks do you do on the 'STRAIGHT' ones?

Mother of a victim: "KNOX: My boys were not involved with this, because it's- this happened to the older boys, years ago. These are grown men now, with families. Pam and the girls were somewhere, I don't know; he- he made sure those girls went and did and got out of the way. You know, but anyway... He- he told the older scouts years ago that there was a girl named Betty, and she was a prostitute, and that he had made arrangements for Betty to come over - excuse me, ya'll(?) - and give them (BACKGROUND NOISE) oral sex. Except he named a specific act, ya know? And they were young. And they did. They came over. And Betty showed up. But Jack said, "Now, she doesn't want you to see her. (Interviewer: Hm) So they blindfolded the boys on the sofa. The "Betty" was Jack. "

[Kickin_Donkey]

43. If anyone is interested in further pursuing ...

the topic of the Boy Scouts vis-a-vis the gay and athiest issues, here is a good place to start:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/

[ulysses]

44. yes.

Eagle, OA, yadda yadda. Went to Philmont twice, which was great and began my love affair with New Mexico.

Will my son (assuming I have one) be involved? It's doubtful unless the organization changes its cultural direction pretty drastically.

[moderate_hero]

45. They are a private organization

Umm, the Constitution guarantees the right to associate with whomever you wish, the Boy Scouts are no different. There are women only health clubs and universities, should they be forced to admit men because they are discriminating? Of course not.

I find it ironic that people who scream about the shredding of the Bill of Rights in the guise of the Patriot Act, willfully ignore other portions of the same document.

[truthspeaker]

48. no one's saying they should be legally required to change

but we can still criticize their policies.

And while a private organization, they get a lot of free meeting space and other special considerations from public schools and local governments

[Bonhomme Richard]

47. My son is an eagle scout and

I did have major problems with the philosophy of the national level regarding gays and religion. My solution was to be very involved with the local troop and be able to voice an opinion. Having said that we did not have any of those issues in our local troop but if someone said something stupid I let them know it. All in all it is a very good program for kids and I would recommend it to anyone. It's like anything else, you have to be involved.

[beevul]

49. I made Eagle...

and a couple palms,OA,ASM etc. I did the camp tomahawk thing in WI quite a few years in a row, and Philmont too.

Being what I consider myself - an agnostic, I never had a problem with any of the leaders about it. I was in a troop that while maintaining discipline so there was a decent degree of order, did not run things with an iron fist or force religion on anyone. Our troop was about enjoying the outdoors, and being good stewards while enjoying nature.

Our troop did some of the more extreme merit badges, such as lifesaving, wilderness survival, pioneering, first aid, rifle shooting, Emergency preparedness, safety. Emphasis on eagle required badges. We also did things like ZERO-HERO- where you stay outside in below for 8 hours or more. Though, we did it for a whole weekend. It was an excercise in more than just survival, and involved cold weather training also, so that cold weather could be prepared for and enjoyed, instead of just survived. I learned A WHOLE LOT in scouting.

The things I learned could save a life or mean the difference between survival or not, in a time of crisis. Being prepared is never a bad thing, and IMO can not be overemphasised.


That being said, I am saddened by the direction BSA has gone.

BTW, A scout is: trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, curteous, kind, obedient, cheerfull, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverant.

I can't believe I remember than after more than a decade.

[greekspeak]

50. I was a boy scout who made it to Star rank

Almost got "Life" scout. My father, a scoutmaster, forced me to be a member of it. I hated being a scout. It made my life miserable at school, it took me away from my freinds most weekends. We fought and backbit more than we worked together. They had a secret society that involved simulated kidnapping and who knows what else, into which I prayed to God (I was a devout Christian at the time) I would not be inducted. The internal politics among the adults were as childish as anything that the scouts themselves did.

That they teach homophobia and employ the likes of Oliver North for a speaker comes as little suprise.